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[Melomaniacal]

Seeing as I main jigglypuff and am one of the main spokespersons as such for the changes involved in making her balanced, I believe I am a bit more qualified to evaluate exactly how such a change would affect her than, let's see, an elitist troll and a some guy with a massive drama fetish.

And it isn't a big deal at all, except for the fact that it'd be completely useless, it's stupid, it serves no point (see: useless), it wouldn't add anything to her game, it's pointless (see: useless), and it would greatly damage the reputation of Brawl+.

Kind of like manual l-canceling.

Also guys, protip: The one that makes the points and reasonings is the guy that brings up the idea, NOT the guy that argues against it.

So, basically...
Paragraph one:
"I'm the man, trust me. Just trust me, because I'm the man. Those other guys, they aren't the man. But I am. So you should just take my word for it; don't question it."

Paragraph two:
"It's a bad idea because it's a bad idea (see: circular reasoning)."

 

[Arkaether]

So, basically...
Paragraph one:
"I'm the man, trust me. Just trust me, because I'm the man. Those other guys, they aren't the man. But I am. So you should just take my word for it; don't question it."

Paragraph two:
"It's a bad idea because it's a bad idea (see: circular reasoning)."

So, basically, as those FOR the idea have said:

"We should put this in because it doesn't do anything but I want it in anyway just so we can have changes".

Way to be better than my argument. At least I AM the man when it comes to Jigglypuff. v:

 

[goodoldganon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Funny how one of the most technologically advanced, powerful, and self-proclaimed intelligent nations in the world is only 17th.

With a 99% literacy rate....

The only reason Kazakhstan is up there is because of the amazing documentary Borat Sagdiyev did about the Cultural Learnings of America. Also, this isn't a bash America thread. Just give them a reason if you are against it. It's not like any of us have something better to do. It is the responsibility of the person asking for change to prove why it would be helpful, but you can still shut em down. Get back on topic people.

 

[GHNeko]

Just give him the **** reasons already before I report the both of you.

 

[Melomaniacal]

So, basically, as those FOR the idea have said:

"We should put this in because it doesn't do anything but I want it in anyway just so we can have changes".

Way to be better than my argument. At least I AM the man when it comes to Jigglypuff. v:

Well, I'm not necessarily for the idea, but I can play a little devil's advocate (bolded for clarity) here.
It could make the move more viable, less useless, could give it a point (see: less useless), could give opportunities for mind games, could make it useful (see: less useless).

Oh, you ARE the man when it comes to Jigglypuff? I had no idea, my apologies.

 

[stingers]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Funny how one of the most technologically advanced, powerful, and self-proclaimed intelligent nations in the world is only 17th.

You say this like it's not tied with Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Guyana, Iceland, Ireland, Japan (JAPAN!), Korea, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.

I mean, of course a country with a lower population is going to have more adults literate, simply because of how easy it is to educate a smaller number of people.

Anyway, this doesn't matter at all and I don't know why I'm feeding into your trolling, but whatever. I'm just gullible.

 

[Arkaether]

Right, right, done with the trolling before drama boy gets all fired up again and nightly drama builds thread comes back.

Well, I'm not necessarily for the idea, but I can play a little devil's advocate (bolded for clarity) here.
It could make the move more viable, less useless, could give it a point (see: less useless), could give opportunities for mind games, could make it useful (see: less useless).

For one, rollout itself is a horrible move. Bad priority, incredibly broadcasted, easy to avoid, punish, and hitting offstage means instant death. Rollout serves an INCREDIBLY SMALL niche slot in Jigglypuff's game, usually only used as a mindgame, switching up recoveries, or just as a random unexpected move you pull out to surprise people.

A rollout cancel would serve NOTHING for her game, mainly since Rollout is an extremely niche move in the first place, used only in certain situations. It won't be more viable, because you never charge it in a situation where you won't use it. It won't allow the move itself to be more useful, but rather only result in a pitiful attempt to create a mindgame that doesn't exist.

In fact, take, for example, Sonic. Have you ever noticed that sonic's roll cancels are used for MOVEMENT to fake out the opponent, unpredictability, and that they are usually canceled after the movement actually comes into effect? How many sonics have you seen that simply charge, stop, and then do something? It serves no practical use because you can't do anything out of it. There is no MINDGAME because the opponent doesn't have to guess at what you will do. There is no UNPREDICTABILITY because she doesn't move. Either she cancels it and everyone's COMPLETELY BACK AT NEUTRAL where they first started (and jigglypuff loses her advantage if she has one), or she uses it and the opponent punishes her because it takes two years to get to him and she broadcasts it along the way. It doesn't put you in an advantageous position, nor does it actually work for mindgames, because any decent opponent can sit at a distance while you're incapacitated and wait until you use it to punish you for using it in the first place. The only thing you're doing by allowing her to cancel the charge is allowing her to randomly use it in situations where she wouldn't use it, which provides NO NET IMPROVEMENT, as canceling a rollout is equivalent to never having used it in the first place, especially since the opponent doesn't have to do anything besides stand there.

Rollout has a basic risk/reward balance; it's easy to punish, hard to use, often puts her in bad situations, and generally has a very high risk unless you're using it in a specific situation where many other options would be just as good. The reward is the fact that it hits like a sack of bricks. Canceling it removes the risk, fails to add to her game, and changes jigglypuff in a place that she has no business being changed in. You can't have mindgames unless you have unpredictability, and there is no unpredictability when the opponent will punish you for choosing one out of two options.

Oh, you ARE the man when it comes to Jigglypuff? I had no idea, my apologies.

'pology accepted. Cuz I'm cool like that. v:

Anyway, this doesn't matter at all and I don't know why I'm feeding into your trolling, but whatever. I'm just gullible.

No, it really doesn't matter, and yes, you are gullible. It's just quite a bit of fun since you provoke rather easily. v:

Of course, I'm stopping because gog and ghneko don't like it.

 

[stingers]

I really think you need to see a doctor. You must have Aspergers or some other type of autism. I don't see any other explanation for your conceited, egotistical, and completely arrogant behavior. Something needs to be done with you before you further harm yourself, your environment, and the people you associate yourself with.

For the life of me, I have no idea why this guy has his opinions listened to. I realize I'm making a fool out of myself by making such a big deal about it, but I really am just fed up with it. x.x

 

[Arkaether]

I really think you need to see a doctor. You must have Aspergers or some other type of autism. I don't see any other explanation for your conceited, egotistical, and completely arrogant behavior. Something needs to be done with you before you further harm yourself, your environment, and the people you associate yourself with.

For the life of me, I have no idea why this guy has his opinions listened to. I realize I'm making a fool out of myself by making such a big deal about it, but I really am just fed up with it. x.x

Because you obviously like inciting drama? If you haven't noticed, most of what you call, "conceited, egotistical, and completely arrogant behavior" (which is doubly redundant, by the way) is trolling. That and when I AM serious, I make well thought out posts with good points and arguments.

Seeing as apparently you're the only person that really has beef with me, I can't really say much except "chill, dude". This is the internet, man. I ain't screwing your girlfriend, so chill.

(Also, I noticed how you conveniently ignored the one post which actually has points, reasoning, and logic.)

 

[gnosis]

Arkaether that's a whole lot of words to write after neglecting to read what you were arguing about.

The idea wasn't just to shield cancel during charging, that alone would clearly be useless, but also during a change of directions, i.e. when Jigglypuff is moving. Personally I think it'd be more interesting to see what could be done with a shield cancel at any point during a grounded Rollout, but whatever.

 

[SimaMatt]

i was watching a B+ jiggs vid and i had a thought, what about giving her a rollout cancel? anytime while she's charging/changing directions you can press shield to cancel the rollout. i'm not really going to push this idea but i thought it would be a cool little AT. would make her a lot less predictable. again, just an idea.

This sounds more like a silly gimmick than an at. I agree with Ark that it wouldn't really change anything for her. Kind of an interesting idea on paper though.

 

[Arkaether]

Arkaether that's a whole lot of words to write after neglecting to read what you were arguing about.

The idea wasn't just to shield cancel during charging, that alone would clearly be useless, but also during a change of directions, i.e. when Jigglypuff is moving. Personally I think it'd be more interesting to see what could be done with a shield cancel at any point during a grounded Rollout, but whatever.

No, because that would still be useless. The reason I didn't address it was because it still results in the same thing; it removes the RISK part of the risk/reward equation. It still doesn't give mindgames, because jigglypuff rollout is way too predictable and way too slow to be anything near effective, unlike Sonic's rolls, and there are not nearly enough options out of it to mean anything, unlike Sonic's rolls.

The only way I could see having this work somehow is making it cancelable at any point EXCEPT during chargeup and direction change. Of course, the fact still lies in that this is an utterly absurd jigglypuff change. There is no reason to prioritize a gimmicky forced AT over ACTUAL CHANGES which should be made to balance a character. There is no reason, in fact, to try and BUFF her ground game when she is a purely aerial character. This buff would be completely wasted on her because she simply lacks the ground game to expound and effectively use it. Something like this that would be (is) extremely useful on a character like Sonic is not ANYWHERE near useful for jigglypuff. This is the same as trying to buff jigglypuff ftilt or her dsmash or any of her pitiful ground options. You're forcing a character to play AGAINST their natural playstyle, buffing their weakness, and nerfing their actual strengths. You're homogenizing the cast and trying to add options which don't actually give options.

 

[goodoldganon]

Guys
guys
guys

it's just Jigglypuff. Let's talk about a cool character that deserves my attention please.

Lulz, but anyway I think it sounds cool on paper but is just impractical if for nothing else then it buffs her ground game, which needs to stay awful. That jiggly's thing. Also, it would be a superfluous change that really didn't add depth at the cost of being a nightmare to program. Sorry, no thanks.

 

[Arkaether]

Guys
guys
guys

it's just Jigglypuff. Let's talk about a cool character that deserves my attention please.

Lulz, but anyway I think it sounds cool on paper but is just impractical if for nothing else then it buffs her ground game, which needs to stay awful. That jiggly's thing. Also, it would be a superfluous change that really didn't add depth at the cost of being a nightmare to program. Sorry, no thanks.

:<
:<
:<

JUST JIGGLYPUFF?! v:<

Also stop repeating points I already made.

 

[GHNeko]

That and Jiggs already has a ground game.


Jab Reset to rest anyone?

I REST my case.


:V

Spoiler

Oh yea. I so just went there.

Next topic please. Tether characters grabbing opponents out of tumble/hitstun. Character specific AT anyone? :V

 

[SimaMatt]

Speaking of cooler (and cuter) characters, can you guys modify hurtboxes? If so, then I'd like to request that Yoshi's fsmash hurtbox gets fixed. For some reason, after Yoshi attacks with fsmash there's a long lingering hurtbox.

Skip to :19 to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHDkWT2itnY

and before anyone asks, yes, I really play Yoshi. Yoshi players exist!

 

[GPDP]

I wish more people would comment on my weight modifier code proposal... I really think it would be a good code to have, if it is possible to make it, that is.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Jiggles needs the Spacie Slayer back. Only she needs to be able to do it on every character. >.>


But on a serious note, any talk of doing anything to Sonic, or has it been decided that he's good enough to leave alone? Apologies if it's been discussed. Been gone for a week and there's too many pages to catch up on. x.x

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

rollout. me and my homies, we can't stop now, so much money, (rollout)
I forget how it goes lol.

 

[goodoldganon]

rollout. me and my homies, we can't stop now, so much money, (rollout)
I forget how it goes lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3rqKg6n80M

I've been drunk before and playing Smash FFAs and start singing this as I spam Rollout. Needless to say I typically get hit.

Jiggles needs the Spacie Slayer back. Only she needs to be able to do it on every character. >.>


But on a serious note, any talk of doing anything to Sonic, or has it been decided that he's good enough to leave alone? Apologies if it's been discussed. Been gone for a week and there's too many pages to catch up on. x.x

I think they are cooking something up. Nothing major, but maybe a tweak or two.

Tether characters grabbing opponents out of tumble/hitstun. Character specific AT anyone? :V

I say they trade range for the ability to grab out of the air, but none of the tether characters are amazing cept Prolimar and maybe ZSS. Besides, it's not really a character specific AT when EVERYONE else can do it.

 

[GHNeko]

rollout. me and my homies, we can't stop now, so much money, (rollout)
I forget how it goes lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab6Rh2tBhOk



:V



But seriously. Tether characters grabbing during hitstun and tumble.


EDIT: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF NINJA'D **** YOU GOG

 

[thesage]

In order for rollout to be used for movement even if it was possible to cancel it (if the turning around animation is cancelable, that pretty much makes the entire grouned portion cancelable...) then it would have to charge up faster or just move faster in general. It also would **** shields since it would have nearly no lag if it was shield cancelable. I do feel it's kinda gimmicky but it would be something unique to her (plus rollout is lulzy lol).

I also by defacto agree with anybody who debates against Arkaether.

 

[stingers]

We should make rollout instant charge, and it should have the KO power of Melee Rest. That way, Jiggs has a viable ground game and she receives a much needed recovery boost.

 

[Arkaether]

thesage is just sore that I told him Evangelion has no real symbolism.

 

[SimaMatt]

Nobody likes Yoshi

;_;

 

[GHNeko]

Nobody likes Yoshi

;_;

No we cannot modify hurtboxes individually. :V

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm going to bed, but can we please start taking this topic a little more seriously guys? Yes that includes other BRoomers, the workshop posters, the trolls, and even myself. Don't disprove a point by giving ridiculous examples of what we could change.

Rollout change could be cool, but it is a long ways out and frankly I feel Brawl+ is losing some steam because it seems anytime an end is in sight, we start changing more things. If you think Puff (or anyone else for that matter) needs help then try and think about the codes we have, or are super close to having (i.e. throw mod). Also, give me reasons why they deserve help.

So please, I ask we get back on track. Let's reduce the trolling, flaming, and name calling and debate like civilized human beings.

EDIT:

Nobody likes Yoshi

;_;

Neko is right, we can't edit hurtboxes, but we could mask the hurtbox with the hitbox, but that is only if that is the real problem. I don't know D3 well enough to say if that is a disjointed D-smash, or Yoshi's F-smash really is that odd. Get me pictures of this phenomena. Preferably with non-disjointed smashes or attacks of the like. Do that for me, and I promise to at least look into it.

 

[GHNeko]

GoG. he linked a video. 19 seconds in it shows the lingering hurtbox. The most we could do is speed up the frames of yoshi's fsmash during the frames of the lingering hitboxes after the hitbox and slow down the rest of the move so that it keeps the same frame count and cool down. :V

 

[thesage]

We should make rollout instant charge, and it should have the KO power of Melee Rest. That way, Jiggs has a viable ground game and she receives a much needed recovery boost.

lol, it'd give her a movement option besides simply increasing her momentum though, making her unique? I don't really think she needs it though. Jusf telt like helping along somebody else's idea lol. Not like she really has anything in her ground game though...

@Ark: I feel sorry for you if you think stories are only deep if they have symbols and I really hope you find a good english teacher for you. Eva doesn't have symbols. It's depth comes from things like psychological stuff which I don't really feel like explaining and is off topic. Please refrain from any more ad hominem attacks. I didn't even like the show that much lol (I find crime shows more entertaining than anime lol). I will put you on my ignore list if you continue to use such dumb logic in your debates though. I'm very sorry I posted this paragraph which is extremely off topic and will refrain from anymore things like this in this thread.

@SimaMatt: Who's yoshi?

 

[Arkaether]

@thesage: I never said Evangelion wasn't deep. I said the symbolism wasn't. You just got all defensive and ragequitted IRC, don't blame me. And I feel sorry for you if you get that overly pissed off about a japanese cartoon. v:

@gog: Don't think that'll happen until you get serious mods in here. Watch like half the thread get 60 points in one night.

@GHNeko: Problem is, that would look extremely odd.

 

[GHNeko]

It would look odd, maybe. who knows. The lingering hitbox cant be more than a few frames. And it would fix the problem. Or at least tape it up.

 

[Arkaether]

Better to wait for a real fix than taping over it imo. I'm pretty sure after most of the stuff has been iron'd out, a hurtbox mod will be made. After all, Yoshi's fsmash isn't the only queer hurtbox.

 

[GHNeko]

Or we can try that now instead. :V

And see what happens. durp.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Modding hurtboxes seems like it lead to amazingly stupid glitches. Just speed up the wonky hurtbox frames and see how it works.

Or extend the hitbox to match the extended hurtbox to make it double stupid. >.>

 

[weinzey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Funny how one of the most technologically advanced, powerful, and self-proclaimed intelligent nations in the world is only 17th.

Apparently someone can't even manage to learn to read, what, two paragraphs? Bravo. I believe this is why America's literacy rate is rather low.

sry i'm posting this a little late, but there's just so much irony in it, i cant resist.

Many high-income countries, having attained high levels of literacy, no longer collect basic literacy statistics and thus are not included in the UIS data. In calculating the Human Development Index (HDI), a literacy rate of 99.0% is assumed for high-income countries that do not report adult literacy information.

that's just one paragraph, btw. maybe u guys should start collecting statistics again?


but on topic: i played a little zss the last days and wondered why here standing grab didnt get sped up like the other tethers? any specific reason behind that?

 

[gnosis]

Canceling a B move with shield isn't an AT or a gimmick. It's a pretty common thing that would just play out a bit different with Puff. It basically allows her to set up and even release Rollout if the player predicts an opening for it, but would allow you to not commit to it. There's still a cost associated with it because Jigglypuff has to sit there and charge instead of doing anything else, except now you aren't stuck with launching the attack and leaving a big opening. Changes it from a very situational tech to something a bit less situational, still not very good, just undeniably better. This sort of thing would be nice to have with Link's arrows, for example, and I think the commitment to charging is enough of a cost for the move with him as well.

Eh, I just think it'd be fun to play around with. I do agree that it's not good enough to be given any priority, I just don't absolutely hate the idea like you seem to.

 

[Arkaether]

sry i'm posting this a little late, but there's just so much irony in it, i cant resist.



that's just one paragraph, btw. maybe u guys should start collecting statistics again?


but on topic: i played a little zss the last days and wondered why here standing grab didnt get sped up like the other tethers? any specific reason behind that?

And apparently someone else is too illiterate to realize that he not only quoted them in the wrong order, but also that the two paragraphs was referring to something else.

Canceling a B move with shield isn't an AT or a gimmick. It's a pretty common thing that would just play out a bit different with Puff. It basically allows her to set up and even release Rollout if the player predicts an opening for it, but would allow you to not commit to it. There's still a cost associated with it because Jigglypuff has to sit there and charge instead of doing anything else, except now you aren't stuck with launching the attack and leaving a big opening. Changes it from a very situational tech to something a bit less situational, still not very good, just undeniably better. This sort of thing would be nice to have with Link's arrows, for example, and I think the commitment to charging is enough of a cost for the move with him as well.

Eh, I just think it'd be fun to play around with. I do agree that it's not good enough to be given any priority, I just don't absolutely hate the idea like you seem to.

Except that there is no cost. No jigglypuff is going to sit there and charge rollout instead of using an actually good move such as shfair or even fsmash if they have that much of an opening. All you're doing is giving options which are worthless to her. It's like giving someone $10,000 then dumping him in the middle of a forest so he can't spend it. Rollout is extremely situational and it is going to stay that way. Period.

 

[gnosis]

Except that there is no cost. No jigglypuff is going to sit there and charge rollout instead of using an actually good move such as shfair or even fsmash if they have that much of an opening. All you're doing is giving options which are worthless to her. It's like giving someone $10,000 then dumping him in the middle of a forest so he can't spend it. Rollout is extremely situational and it is going to stay that way. Period.

No, there is a cost. What you're arguing is that there's no reward - and the cost is the relinquishing of some other potential reward.

I don't really wanna get any further into theory fighter with you, it's never worth it, so I guess we stop talking about this now.

 

[Arkaether]

No, there is a cost. What you're arguing is that there's no reward - and the cost is the relinquishing of some other potential reward.

I don't really wanna get any further into theory fighter with you, it's never worth it, so I guess we stop talking about this now.

No point in trying to run away, it just makes you bad. You committed to the argument, you should see it out.

You're completely missing the fact that rollout is a completely worthless move as far as jigglypuff is concerned. Any use is highly situational and she would function fine with it completely removed. By buffing it, you are doing NOTHING to help her at all. This is a stupid patch slapped on because you want change no matter how stupid or worthless it is, without regard for how it actually affects the character.

 

[weinzey]

And apparently someone else is too illiterate to realize that he not only quoted them in the wrong order, but also that the two paragraphs was referring to something else.

the messed up order was definetly intended in order to point out the irony and btw would have nothing to do with illiteracy. and i know very well that they are referring to something else, but that's just the point: u accuse someone of not paying attention properly, while not doing it yourself either.
but dont feel offended, nobody else noticed it either. just dont take it all so serious.