Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Mattnumbers]

My idea would make it so that Diddy wouldn't need autosweetspotting.

People seem to be ignoring it though.

 

[PanzerOceania]

if diddy really needed it you could just buff his recovery instead of autosweetspotting him

 

[sand8]

i like your idea matt, i skipped over it cus it was a wall of text... sorry
yeah chars like ness, diddy and lucas would really benefit from that, also its not game breaking, it would just ad one more aspect to the game

and panzer what do you mean by buffing his recovery? in what way?

also i think the best way to go about matt's idea would be to remove the collision with ness diddy and lucas recoveries, that way they just slide over top

 

[Nybb]

is it just me? does no one else get dtilted when they recover form below?

and if it is, anyone got any tips?

also cant we just make diddys "helpless" animation after he collides with the edge end faster so he can recover?

or maybe give ness and lucas a collision witht eh edge, so take damage and can do thier up B again?

I think you are complaining about sweetspotting because you play the three characters who are the absolute worst at it, lol. Their bad recoveries are there to balance out their good on-stage games in theory. This is mostly true for Diddy and Lucas, while Ness is still a work in progress. Use the tools they have as best you can but don't count on making it back to the stage very often against good players.

My idea would make it so that Diddy wouldn't need autosweetspotting.

People seem to be ignoring it though.

I don't really understand how your idea is different from what already happens? A lot of recoveries already follow the edge of the stage up to the lip if you recover from underneath the stage. It just depends on the stage and what kind of edges it has. Are you just saying that everybody should be able to do this?

 

[stingers]

Lucas' on-stage game isn't even that great...his complete lack of aerial range allows characters like Peach and Marth to shut him down fairly easily...

 

[sand8]

oh, i dont play these chars that often, i dont play them BECAUSE they cant recover, and i play them for thier combo game ness and didyd mainly lucas has none.. or i havent discovered it

 

[Deleted member]

Any buff to Ness is just icing on the cake. Sorry, ness mains

 

[Mattnumbers]

Of course the addition of that AT would come with subsequent nerfs if it actually buffed a character (although I would imagine it would be a small buff as most characters can sweetspot or find another way to recover besides their upb, Diddy seems like the only one that really doesn't.

Lucas can Zapjump and magnet pull (also he can sweetspot)
Spacies can use SideB
Ness can sweetspot
Pikachu doesn't really get a boost in his recovery from this, just some extra mindgames.

And I don't even really think the spacies should get it (unless their mains really want it).

So really only Diddy and Ness get significant buffs from it.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

is there anyway to make it so that utilt can have followups but not be spammable(for falco)? so that he can still combo, but not with another utilt? it will stop from seeing the same boring old combos that are usually utilt>utilt and will be utilt>oh **** not a utilt, etc.

How many times have you suggested this lol?

Sadly, im pretty sure that the start up of a move is universal, and you cant make it start on different frames just because of the move that proceeded it.

 

[Dan_X]

is there anyway to make it so that utilt can have followups but not be spammable(for falco)? so that he can still combo, but not with another utilt? it will stop from seeing the same boring old combos that are usually utilt>utilt and will be utilt>oh **** not a utilt, etc.

Okay seriously... Falco's Utilt is his gateway to comboing. It's not so "spammable" that it can't be avoided. It can be DIed from, and at best, you can get off two Utilts in a row... and more if the enemy is really terrible at DIing.

There's nothing wrong with his Utilt. Get over it.

 

[_clinton]

Wait...someone said Lucas' recovery was bad!?

Anyway...I should point out that I like the idea of various Up specials being able to ride up walls...because I already like being able to do that with Ness and Lucas...why shouldn't it be easier to do as well as others being able to use it (it could make up for PKT having a horrible time sweetspotting the stage IMO)?

 

[Mattnumbers]

If you think I said his recovery was bad you are mistaken.

Anyways Its not really riding along walls, its altering the trajectory so that you go sideways toward the stage after hitting the edge.

 

[timothyung]

Any plans on fixing the ability to choose the same color when using wild Pokemons/Trainer, Zelda/Sheik, and ZSS/Samus? And consider adding the online training stage with the SSS code?

 

[GPDP]

Any plans on fixing the ability to choose the same color when using wild Pokemons/Trainer, Zelda/Sheik, and ZSS/Samus? And consider adding the online training stage with the SSS code?

That stage has already been added. It replaces New Pork City.

 

[timothyung]

That stage has already been added. It replaces New Pork City.

But you can't play it online

 

[Revven]

If you think I said his recovery was bad you are mistaken.

Anyways Its not really riding along walls, its altering the trajectory so that you go sideways toward the stage after hitting the edge.

Unfortunately, Matt, there isn't a specific animation ID for when Ness OR Lucas hit any walls. So your idea isn't going to work for them. And, again, Diddy does not NEED his recovery to be better. How many times has it been explained by myself and shanus already? Hmmm... about more than 50 by now I'd guess. Diddy has an amazing onstage game, his weakness is his recovery, he isn't Top in vBrawl because of his recovery, he's top in vBrawl because of his onstage game. He does not need a good recovery, period. And, his recovery can be snapped onto the edge if you practice it long enough, it's doable.

People really shouldn't complain about a character they seem to know nothing about, especially when it pertains to what you can and can't do with them. It only shows even more that you don't know anything about that character.

And timothy, we can't add the WiFi Waiting Room as a new stage to the list to make it work on WiFi... it doesn't have its own stage icon...

 

[timothyung]

I thought it'll show up as menu? amirite? I saw a few videos using this
EDIT: This for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMK_Wp3b00

 

[Revven]

I thought it'll show up as menu? amirite? I saw a few videos using this
EDIT: This for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMK_Wp3b00

That would look odd plus, it'd be for only one stage and I DOUBT that would make it work on WiFi...

 

[timothyung]

That would look odd plus, it'd be for only one stage and I DOUBT that would make it work on WiFi...

Seriously, I watched a nico video, it works
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm7484306

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Okay seriously... Falco's Utilt is his gateway to comboing. It's not so "spammable" that it can't be avoided. It can be DIed from, and at best, you can get off two Utilts in a row... and more if the enemy is really terrible at DIing.

There's nothing wrong with his Utilt. Get over it.

im not complaining that he can do utilt combos. im saying utilt combos are boring. but anyway my point is, the same thing over and over isn't fun. not just falco, but squirtle, ivysaur, it just gets boring seeing the same combos over and over. please understand im not complaining about the moves damage or spammability, but more its follow ups. I mean, the people I play mix up from time to time(silvens marth/glicks jiggly puff is very entertaining to watch) but some people are "good" because they do the same boring combos over and over.

edit: maybe its a player specific thing but hopefully wbr will understand what im saying and take this into account(lol)

 

[kupo15]

Unfortunately, Matt, there isn't a specific animation ID for when Ness OR Lucas hit any walls.

You are mistaken unless you mean that they don't have an animation ID that is soley theirs and not shared which isn't a problem with enough hooks

 

[Revven]

You are mistaken unless you mean that they don't have an animation ID that is soley theirs and not shared which isn't a problem with enough hooks

I am not mistaken. Cape checked them out last night, he has a USB Gecko now and can get that kind of data. They aren't any different when they hit walls, the ID does not change, therefore does not have its own ID.

 

[weinzey]

i think what kupo wants to say is that they dont need to have seperate ids if u want to change both of their upb's (like matt proposed).

@custom stage selection screen: would it be possible to give custom maps a slot there? that would make stiking a lot less painful when using the community stage pack...if they get tourney legal.

 

[Shell]

Not every action has a unique ID, unfortunately. Ganon's wizkick ID, for example, is shared by both the aerial and grounded versions. The ID for PKT2 may cover a few of the smaller animations that it consists of.

 

[GHNeko]

Just tried out the nightly build, i like ganons new murder grab frame changes
all seems to check out OK in this version

i still wonder about the no auto sweet spot code
why was it put in?
i understand it is to make recovery harder, but it makes edgequarding amazingly easy with chars like gaw/rob/ness/lucas/meta/marth and pretty much anyone with a fast d tilt or d smash

i cant count the number of times i have spaced correctly with marios up B only to get d tilted, and yeah i'm sure i'm as close to the edge as possible and not going over

sweet spotting needs to be re added
or you could make the reach for characters less so sweet spotting is harder
also another option would be to change dtilt hitboxes, because some of them seem to have a hitbox below them, so edgequarding with a spammy dtilt is easy cough*GaW*cough

and its not like i cant recover either, i recover all the time its just annoying when you get d tilted, or you bounce off the edge when you are ness ( and yeah you can go above, but it begs for punishment, unless landing lag was reduced to zero)

recovering is hard enough in B+ due to the increased hitstun
why does it need to be impossible to recover against a half skilled player?

also some added ending lag on falco's u tilt would be appreciated, cus getting caught in 2-3 of those at low percent is annoying, and yeah i know i can DI, but you still get hit by one or two

and i dont know if it is possible but maybe increase ganon's grab range, cus it still seems to be incredibly short

those are just a couple of my suggestions
thanks a ton for all the great changes you have already made

LOL.

lrn2abuseledges.

Abuse the ledge grab range. That's what I do. It's the only way I can sweetspot with characters like Marth and Mario, who are both my mains. It's really THE only way to perfectly sweetspot, because a "perfect" sweetspot are still subject to moves that have hitbox that extend to the ledge and slightly below. :V

 

[CloneHat]

If you sweetspot correctly, the grab range is so big it is impossible for an attack to hit you.

Once we get ledge teching, we plan on making the grab range smaller.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Unfortunately, Matt, there isn't a specific animation ID for when Ness OR Lucas hit any walls. So your idea isn't going to work for them. And, again, Diddy does not NEED his recovery to be better. How many times has it been explained by myself and shanus already? Hmmm... about more than 50 by now I'd guess. Diddy has an amazing onstage game, his weakness is his recovery, he isn't Top in vBrawl because of his recovery, he's top in vBrawl because of his onstage game. He does not need a good recovery, period. And, his recovery can be snapped onto the edge if you practice it long enough, it's doable.

People really shouldn't complain about a character they seem to know nothing about, especially when it pertains to what you can and can't do with them. It only shows even more that you don't know anything about that character.

And timothy, we can't add the WiFi Waiting Room as a new stage to the list to make it work on WiFi... it doesn't have its own stage icon...

Falco..........did you read my earlier posts?

I said characters would need to be nerfed in exchange. This change wouldn't make Diddy's recovery GOOD even, it would just make it BETTER. He should have a great onstage game sure, but if his recovery stood a chance while still being his weakness that would be good. Kind of like what you did to Ness. If the Diddy mains don't want any nerfs and don't want the buff, that's fine I just think it would be beneficial to his Metagame. Save the worst recovery of the game title for tether characters.

 

[kupo15]

I am not mistaken. Cape checked them out last night, he has a USB Gecko now and can get that kind of data. They aren't any different when they hit walls, the ID does not change, therefore does not have its own ID.

Are we talking about the diddy crash because there is an ID for that which is different than the motherboys which have the same one. But its not unique because it is also shared with kirbys/mk up bs. Remember I posted a code to remove the crash?

 

[_clinton]

Are we talking about the diddy crash because there is an ID for that which is different than the motherboys which have the same one. But its not unique because it is also shared with kirbys/mk up bs. Remember I posted a code to remove the crash?

That code isn't in Brawl+ right? Just want to make sure because if it is I've been doing something wrong (like not noticing it)

Anyway...just for fun...because I feel like doing it again

Lucas' magnet compared to Ness' magnet
What Lucas has:
-A larger absorb hitbox because of how Lucas holds his magnet (He can absorb on the ground Wolf's short hopped Blaster...but Ness has to short hop as well)
-It recovers more % of course
-Its after affect is a very low angle semi high powered knockback move
-It recovers faster
-Because of the size it is also easier to trigger the auto cancel move
-Because it recovers faster it can be used for recovery in the same way Samus' bombs can almost at least when it comes to adding horizontal distance (and this isn't even factoring in the advanced moves) only it is better than Samus' bombs overall because the thing has less cool down time...Ness' only allows him to stall because of the longer cool down time...he can't add to his horizontal range from spamming his

What Ness has:
-His wind turn off is a full body effect (so the thing has more range than Lucas'...which has short range...big whoop)

Its the same way when comparing smash attacks as well...
Their Fsmash:
Lucas
-Range (the stick happens to be a larger hit box horizontally)
-Speed (Lucas' comes out faster and I'm sure he puts it away faster as well)
-Kill power (The thing has above average kill power at every angle instead of just one tip)

Ness
-His does more damage as far as % goes...18-24 compared to 15...which isn't a big deal

Their usmash:
Lucas
-Kill power...it is the 2nd strongest usmash in this game and as far as power goes it actually beats Ness' full PK Flash if charged some as well
-Range...it reaches the top platform of battle field...and horizontally it isn't lacking as well
-Damage...it also outdoes Ness' in % done if that matters

Ness
-Speed...it comes out much faster and goes away much faster...but it doesn't matter because...the sweet spot will never kill and the sour spot can screw up the sweet spot hitting someone and leave Ness open...personally...if Ness' sour spot stunned people in the same way Zamus' Dsmash and Nspecial did...I think it would fix one of the moves major issues...

Their dsmash
Lucas
-Kill power...the 1st blast is about as powerful as Lucas' stick...the move isn't fully meant to kill though
-Range...the move is meant for screwing with people that spot dodge too much...and even then the thing will hit behind Lucas after the 1st move
-Damage...again the move does more % than Ness'

Ness
-Speed...the thing has the same issue with his Usmash though...again making the sour stun in the same way Zamus can would fix it in several of its issues IMO...

 

[Mattnumbers]

That code isn't in Brawl+ right? Just want to make sure because if it is I've been doing something wrong (like not noticing it)

Anyway...just for fun...because I feel like doing it again

Lucas' magnet compared to Ness' magnet
What Lucas has:
-A larger absorb hitbox because of how Lucas holds his magnet (He can absorb on the ground Wolf's short hopped Blaster...but Ness has to short hop as well)
-It recovers more % of course
-Its after affect is a very low angle semi high powered knockback move
-It recovers faster
-Because of the size it is also easier to trigger the auto cancel move
-Because it recovers faster it can be used for recovery in the same way Samus' bombs can almost at least when it comes to adding horizontal distance (and this isn't even factoring in the advanced moves) only it is better than Samus' bombs overall because the thing has less cool down time...Ness' only allows him to stall because of the longer cool down time...he can't add to his horizontal range from spamming his

What Ness has:
-His wind turn off is a full body effect (so the thing has more range than Lucas'...which has short range...big whoop)

Its the same way when comparing smash attacks as well...
Their Fsmash:
Lucas
-Range (the stick happens to be a larger hit box horizontally)
-Speed (Lucas' comes out faster and I'm sure he puts it away faster as well)
-Kill power (The thing has above average kill power at every angle instead of just one tip)

Ness
-His does more damage as far as % goes...18-24 compared to 15...which isn't a big deal

Their usmash:
Lucas
-Kill power...it is the 2nd strongest usmash in this game and as far as power goes it actually beats Ness' full PK Flash if charged some as well
-Range...it reaches the top platform of battle field...and horizontally it isn't lacking as well
-Damage...it also outdoes Ness' in % done if that matters

Ness
-Speed...it comes out much faster and goes away much faster...but it doesn't matter because...the sweet spot will never kill and the sour spot can screw up the sweet spot hitting someone and leave Ness open...personally...if Ness' sour spot stunned people in the same way Zamus' Dsmash and Nspecial did...I think it would fix one of the moves major issues...

Their dsmash
Lucas
-Kill power...the 1st blast is about as powerful as Lucas' stick...the move isn't fully meant to kill though
-Range...the move is meant for screwing with people that spot dodge too much...and even then the thing will hit behind Lucas after the 1st move
-Damage...again the move does more % than Ness'

Ness
-Speed...the thing has the same issue with his Usmash though...again making the sour stun in the same way Zamus can would fix it in several of its issues IMO...

You really can't just compare some of Ness's worst moves to some of Lucas's better moves and then say that one is better because of it. Magnet is situational for both of them, so that doesn't really make a difference.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

That code isn't in Brawl+ right? Just want to make sure because if it is I've been doing something wrong (like not noticing it)

Anyway...just for fun...because I feel like doing it again

Lucas' magnet compared to Ness' magnet
What Lucas has:
-A larger absorb hitbox because of how Lucas holds his magnet (He can absorb on the ground Wolf's short hopped Blaster...but Ness has to short hop as well)
-It recovers more % of course
-Its after affect is a very low angle semi high powered knockback move
-It recovers faster
-Because of the size it is also easier to trigger the auto cancel move
-Because it recovers faster it can be used for recovery in the same way Samus' bombs can almost at least when it comes to adding horizontal distance (and this isn't even factoring in the advanced moves) only it is better than Samus' bombs overall because the thing has less cool down time...Ness' only allows him to stall because of the longer cool down time...he can't add to his horizontal range from spamming his

What Ness has:
-His wind turn off is a full body effect (so the thing has more range than Lucas'...which has short range...big whoop)

Its the same way when comparing smash attacks as well...
Their Fsmash:
Lucas
-Range (the stick happens to be a larger hit box horizontally)
-Speed (Lucas' comes out faster and I'm sure he puts it away faster as well)
-Kill power (The thing has above average kill power at every angle instead of just one tip)

Ness
-His does more damage as far as % goes...18-24 compared to 15...which isn't a big deal

Their usmash:
Lucas
-Kill power...it is the 2nd strongest usmash in this game and as far as power goes it actually beats Ness' full PK Flash if charged some as well
-Range...it reaches the top platform of battle field...and horizontally it isn't lacking as well
-Damage...it also outdoes Ness' in % done if that matters

Ness
-Speed...it comes out much faster and goes away much faster...but it doesn't matter because...the sweet spot will never kill and the sour spot can screw up the sweet spot hitting someone and leave Ness open...personally...if Ness' sour spot stunned people in the same way Zamus' Dsmash and Nspecial did...I think it would fix one of the moves major issues...

Their dsmash
Lucas
-Kill power...the 1st blast is about as powerful as Lucas' stick...the move isn't fully meant to kill though
-Range...the move is meant for screwing with people that spot dodge too much...and even then the thing will hit behind Lucas after the 1st move
-Damage...again the move does more % than Ness'

Ness
-Speed...the thing has the same issue with his Usmash though...again making the sour stun in the same way Zamus can would fix it in several of its issues IMO...

now compare their aerials and grabs...

 

[_clinton]

You really can't just compare some of Ness's worst moves to some of Lucas's better moves and then say that one is better because of it. Magnet is situational for both of them, so that doesn't really make a difference.

The thing is...the stuff Ness is suppose to be better in...he really isn't better in with some of those moves...
For example...The bat's power is only a little better than Lucas' stick and only at the tip...because the other 3 areas are all with a lower power as far as killing goes overall...so it needs a fix overall IMO...I personally think that the only part of the bat that should be weaker than Lucas' stick as far as KO power goes it the 4th part...and even then it shouldn't be by much...I also feel that the tip of the bat should have more power than Marth's Fsmash tip as well...

Plus I already brought up the yoyo not working the way it is suppose to...god the 2 hits don't naturally chain together...

Also talking about the magnet more...the wind effect would be better if it was somewhat stronger...plus the move should turn on and off faster as well...god the moves fastest time is longer than Fox's, and Wolf's as well...and is only like 2 frames slower than Falco's move...

now compare their aerials and grabs...

Lucas' Dair does 20% if all of the moves hit...the Uair is sexy as well...and all of his airs happen to come out faster than Ness' as well overall...

Saying Ness' airs are better may be true...but it isn't like he flat out destroys Lucas' air game as far as performance goes...

Their grabs are both overall alright IMO...Lucas' recovery time for the standing grab was buffed...so in truth his pivot and normal grabs are ok...but his dash sucks...to compare...Ness' standing sucks...but his dash and pivot are ok as well...

 

[Revven]

Are we talking about the diddy crash because there is an ID for that which is different than the motherboys which have the same one. But its not unique because it is also shared with kirbys/mk up bs. Remember I posted a code to remove the crash?

No, not talking about Diddy's crash, talking about Lucas and Ness, Cape has a USB Gecko and was trying to get the ID for Ness when he hits an edge or a wall and nothing was coming up (as in, the ID didn't change at all).

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i miss ness's Melee PK Flash
that would make Ness alot better xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMK_Wp3b00

win
maybe ppl can rearange it into neutrals cps ect...(not vBrawl's set)

 

[Zodac]

you said ness was better than lucas on gamefaqs clinton....

 

[_clinton]

you said ness was better than lucas on gamefaqs clinton....

Where did I say Lucas was better than Ness in any of my posts at the time?

 

[kupo15]

No, not talking about Diddy's crash, talking about Lucas and Ness, Cape has a USB Gecko and was trying to get the ID for Ness when he hits an edge or a wall and nothing was coming up (as in, the ID didn't change at all).

I was able to remove the mother's crash before. I forget which ID it is from this

This is an epic code I compiled using pws action mod and gizas help with IDs

4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 0000000A
2C030000 41820010
2C1C00B5 40820008
3B8000B6 60000000
2C1C0070 40820008
3B80000E 60000000
2C1C011D 40820008
3B800010 60000000
2C1C0129 40820008
3B800010 60000000
939E0038 00000000

No water lag
aerial footstool spikes
No lucario up b lag
No diddy crash
No ness/lucas crash

Keep in mind it shares with another chars up b ID like mk or kirby or something. Its the same ID for both mothers

 

[XSilvenX]

If you sweetspot correctly, the grab range is so big it is impossible for an attack to hit you.

Once we get ledge teching, we plan on making the grab range smaller.

What are you talking about? That's the only safe way for some characters to recover, otherwise the opponent can just sit there and charge a fsmash and hit you every time. Do I have to mention that it takes some sort of skill/concentration to consistently sweetspot low enough to the point where nothing can hit you? There's nothing wrong with the ledgegrab range. If you have a problem with someone sweetspotting to the point where you can't hit them how about you go off stage and edgeguard? Grab the ledge, force them to go on stage and legehop fair? There are plenty of ways around it.

 

[CloneHat]

That's what I heard a while ago.

 

[GHNeko]

....Can we please move that horrible 60 degree angle on Mario's uair?

I'm pretty sure that change wasn't well recieved. .__.