Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GHNeko]

Just give everyone yoshi's shield.

V:

 

[IC3R]

With the near-instant shield drop? Fun~

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Didn't leaf say over 900 times that the shield regen and decay rate is the same as it was in melee?

so what? who cares what melee had it set to? Brawl has way more multi hit moves in the game, and it's stupid to try to compare to two in regards of shieldstun. I don't even see how you can say that those values are the same, how do you even measure it? What's your control? Just because melee had it set to that amount doesn't mean it's the golden number. We should set it to whatever works with the game the best.

In any case, I think less shield regen would be good for the game. Auto-powershielding coupled with the focus on the aerial gameplay leads to the shield not even really being attacked as much, (Which is why comparing it to melee is stupid) so rewarding players for landing hits on the shield more would be good because of how much more sparse it is compared to the other games.

 

[matt4300]

so what? who cares what melee had it set to? Brawl has way more multi hit moves in the game, and it's stupid to try to compare to two in regards of shieldstun. I don't even see how you can say that those values are the same, how do you even measure it? What's your control? Just because melee had it set to that amount doesn't mean it's the golden number. We should set it to whatever works with the game the best.

In any case, I think less shield regen would be good for the game. Auto-powershielding coupled with the focus on the aerial gameplay leads to the shield not even really being attacked as much, (Which is why comparing it to melee is stupid) so rewarding players for landing hits on the shield more would be good because of how much more sparse it is compared to the other games.

Lower shield regen + bowsers soon to be sheild destroying blows....

Sounds good to me.

 

[NC-Echo]

So when does the next version launch?

 

[zxeon]

This sounds interesting.

 

[Shadic]

So when does the next version launch?

Read back a page.

As much as I wanted to get the official set out today, its going to have to wait till tomorrow.

We are waiting on a few pacs to be delivered by WBR members who are not prompt

The good news is that the set is fantastically awesome.

 

[jalued]

so what? who cares what melee had it set to? Brawl has way more multi hit moves in the game, and it's stupid to try to compare to two in regards of shieldstun. I don't even see how you can say that those values are the same, how do you even measure it? What's your control? Just because melee had it set to that amount doesn't mean it's the golden number. We should set it to whatever works with the game the best.

In any case, I think less shield regen would be good for the game. Auto-powershielding coupled with the focus on the aerial gameplay leads to the shield not even really being attacked as much, (Which is why comparing it to melee is stupid) so rewarding players for landing hits on the shield more would be good because of how much more sparse it is compared to the other games.

would also be perfect with magnus cancel (if it is ever implimented- please god let it be implemented!!!!)

 

[shanus]

would also be perfect with magnus cancel (if it is ever implimented- please god let it be implemented!!!!)

MC would ensure that there would be many shield lock and shield break combos which ultimately would lead to camping

 

[shanus]

http://i32.tinypic.com/vzvdi8.jpg
Editing of DDD/Zard/Squirt/Ivy attributes coming soooon...

Are you able to open samus' bombs?

 

[MK26]

/me <3's Dantarion
/me prepares to <3 WBR
/me asks shanus if that 'extra lag if you try to airdodge again after a airdodge, or if you shield after a roll/spotdodge' is to be implemented

also, i lol'd at

...

 

[IC3R]

lol u saw wat i did thar?

Anyway, the new set is coming out today or tomorrow, and I can't wait to try it out (even with the Kirby nerfs)! Which reminds me, as soon as it comes out, a new Kirby+ thread is going to be needed.

Maestro, do you want to do it/help me do it?

 

[matt4300]

lol u saw wat i did thar?

Anyway, the new set is coming out today or tomorrow, and I can't wait to try it out (even with the Kirby nerfs)! Which reminds me, as soon as it comes out, a new Kirby+ thread is going to be needed.

Maestro, do you want to do it/help me do it?

Kirby nerfs.... I don't know if hes getting nerfs this next set. All that talk was just me brainstorming on possible ways to nerf him. I havent heared anything from the WBR about kirby nerfs.

 

[Yanoss1313]

hmmm, in my opinion, the main chars that feel a little too easy, or need a few nerfs are, kirby, pika and squartal... maybe marth to a lesser extent, i just feel i'm having to easy a time stringing combos and the like with these ones.

 

[IC3R]

Kirby nerfs.... I don't know if hes getting nerfs this next set. All that talk was just me brainstorming on possible ways to nerf him. I havent heard anything from the WBR about kirby nerfs.

>_>;

So I've been getting worked up over nothing? Or, perhaps they have already done stuff to him and are just keeping quiet -___-

 

[Doval]

MC would ensure that there would be many shield lock and shield break combos which ultimately would lead to camping

How's that? MC should at best allow you to follow up an aerial with a ground attack. And I doubt you'll start seeing laggy follow-ups like Ike's F-smash comboing, especially if MC doesn't completely remove landing lag, just reduces it like L-canceling did.

The MC'er also puts himself at risk of having his own shield *****, so it's not like people will be spamming Magus Cancels repeatedly.

 

[Dan_X]

Regarding MC... Why we should have it!

Well, with MC we'd still have auto L-canceling, cutting ALR in half, or more. MC would further that lag cut by giving you zero lag, but you'll have to time the shield input as if you were executing a manual L-cancel. The known risk involved with MCing, and it’s a choice, is that it eats away a certain % of your shield each time you perform said technique. Is it possible that this would lead to shield breaking? Sure, if the MC is used foolishly, and spammed, you'll likely be punished in the form of shield breaking. However, the benefit of MCing is that you can follow up immediately, completely laglessly.

Your shield is in no danger of breaking whatsoever if you don't make use of MCing. Conversely, if you use MCing sparigly, and efficiently your shield should also be safe. The only chance you have at getting your shield broken is abusing MCing, poor spacing, and playing in too predictable a fashion.

The overlying point here is that MCing will add a wealth of depth to the game. It's not an obscure mechanic because you aren't forced to use it if you don't want to. Using it would be beneficial, sure, but it’d still be an option, not a necessity. One thing is almost certain; it would make heavies and strong characters frightening, giving them in particular a new bag of deadly tricks.

Would MCing create a campy game? No, absolutely not. There’s a simple reason for this. MCing is NOT just a mindless button press, but a tactical option. You’re never FORCED to MC against your will, as such; you’ll never jeopardize your shield unless you willingly do so. If MC wasn’t an option, if it was downright mandatory, then your shield would always be in a vulnerable, or in a near vulnerable state, as such, then it would create a campy game. Only if MCing mandatory would gameplay become campy. The game would literally play out just as it does now, if you don’t use MCing, and there will be virtually no effect on shields.

In the end, I really think MCing would be very beneficial to the game. It’s something that every character can utilize, some making better use of it than others. It’d add some technical skill the game, requiring intellect and skill, for abusing MC is quite costly. I strongly think that MCing is just the mechanic we could use to create more depth in Brawl+.

It’s such a great idea! I'd love to see this in the next build (I mean to say the one we wait 5 or so months for).

 

[kupo15]

MCing is a bad idea because then you won't have that button for l canceling xD

/joke

 

[shanus]

How's that? MC should at best allow you to follow up an aerial with a ground attack. And I doubt you'll start seeing laggy follow-ups like Ike's F-smash comboing, especially if MC doesn't completely remove landing lag, just reduces it like L-canceling did.

The MC'er also puts himself at risk of having his own shield *****, so it's not like people will be spamming Magus Cancels repeatedly.

Imagine things like peach fair paired with MC's. Shieldstun would definitely need to be dropped to compensate. Hence why if you add MC's I would say you would see increased camping as approaches would largely be very shield damage intense for both parties and then its kind of a game of cat and mouse.

If it cut off additional lag than the current ALR, the MC would require >50% of the shield to be consumed to not allow a triple fair shieldbreaker.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

What exactly is MCing?

 

[Rudra]

Magus Cancel. It allows you to "L-Cancel" your aerials, but for every MCancel, you lose a portion of your Shield.

 

[GameSystem]

Edit: Ninja'd. My internet fails. I even double checked to see that there were no posts. Way to fail internet.

 

[NC-Echo]

I was wrong please read my newest post on the subject.

On a separate note: I rescind my statement about Bowser and his shield damage. I messed around with increasing the values of shield damage and what I didn't realize until now is that increasing shield damage also increases shield stun slightly. Therefore increasing shield damage would be a good thing for him because it would make a select few of his moves safe. So my bad for speaking to soon.... Please let us bowsers have the increased shield stun... It would be good....

 

[Mattnumbers]

Why don't we just make it so that the more lag that gets cut off a move the more it damages your sheild?

And I'm liking this idea, but shanus has a good point. We need some way for it to not lead to overly defensive playstyles.

 

[Rudra]

Everytime Bowser hits a shield, he gets punished...? I thought moves like AC Fair/Ftilt were safe on block when spaced well.

 

[shanus]

Let us not forget that I made dair a **** shield damage tool designed for you to do a cross-up through their shield. (Seriously if you get most of the hits in, its like half shield health)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Gah I'm going to be antsy all day..........

 

[Doval]

If it cut off additional lag than the current ALR, the MC would require >50% of the shield to be consumed to not allow a triple fair shieldbreaker.

I don't disagree. I don't think Magus intended for the MC penalty to be so low you use it frequently, let alone chain them in quick succession. Considering what it does, the penalty has to be severe to balance out the potential for severe shield damage, new combos and earlier KOs. I was already expecting it to reduce the attacker's shield to a very low value. If the offender's shielding ability is damaged more than what he can damage the defender, it's high risk, high reward.

Also, even if MC reduces your landing lag to 0, it's impossible for Peach to chain f-airs. The stun time is 15 frames. She's grounded for 4 frames during her jump, then there's the dead frame, and it takes her f-air 16 frames to become active. The soonest she could possibly unleash a second f-air would be 21 frames after landing. And even if it combo'd, the increase in hit lag from the upcoming Nightly would make it very feasable to Smash DI away from her, forcing her to waste extra frames closing the distance and probably breaking the combo. The same applies to her d-air - it's too slow to use one after an f-air even with 0 landing lag, but even then it's possible to SDI each hit. Plus it has a lot less shield stun.

Even if MC reduces land lag to 0 AND it's feasable to use more than one MC in a row, I doubt we'd see any multi-aerial shield locks. The most I'm expecting is for it to become feasable to use a slow Smash after an aerial - and even then you wouldn't be seeing stuff like Ike/Dedede/Ness/Bowser/Ganon F-smashes. There's just not enough stun. The most stun you can expect out of a high power aerial is 17 frames, 19 in some rare cases like Ganon's d-air which does an exceptional amount of damage (22%).

Discouraging MC spam wouldn't be hard, on a theoretical level. Suppose that MC turns out to be powerful and people start MC'ing, keeping away until their shield regenerates, then MC'ing again. This sort of situation could be avoided by reducing the attacker's max shield size for the rest of the stock, so it can't regenerate to the full value, and using two MCs in the same life would leave you with little shield to work with even when it's maxed. Another perfectly fine option is to make it less extreme. Instead of cutting landing lag altogether, have MC reduce it by a certain % and decrease the shield penalties accordingly.

 

[NC-Echo]

I was wrong, please read my newest post on the subject.

On a separate note: I rescind my statement about Bowser and his shield damage. I messed around with increasing the values of shield damage and what I didn't realize until now is that increasing shield damage also increases shield stun slightly. Therefore increasing shield damage would be a good thing for him because it would make a select few of his moves safe. So my bad for speaking to soon.... Please let us bowsers have the increased shield stun... It would be good....

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that would be too extreme Doval, most characters wouldn't get much of a reward for such a punishment.

I think it should all depend on the specific move as to how much it makes your shield decrease.

What if we made it so that shields have a lot more health, but regenerate much slower?

 

[proteininja]

Regarding the Bowser topic of increasing shield damage. I thought about what this would do to his game and I don't really think increasing shield damage on his moves would buff him much at all. The problem is that as his moves currently work, Bowser rarely if ever gets more than one hit on a shield off at a time and then gets punished for it. If his moves do more shield damage it wont really matter unless they outright poke a full shield because everytime Bowser hits a shield he gets punished and the punish and subsequent trial to get back to a neutral position will take so long that the opponents shield will likely be back to full. I strongly hope that there is more in store for Bowser than increasing his shield damage because to be honest it really doesn't seem like that will help him at all siginificantly.

QFT.

10char

 

[Doval]

I think that would be too extreme Doval, most characters wouldn't get much of a reward for such a punishment.

Perhaps. It's hard to tell without actually implementing it, deciding on whether it's a full or partial lag reduction, and trying it out. The main point was to try to argue that even in the worst case scenario, in which it turns out it grants a very big offensive boost to the attacker, it's still possible to balance it out and prevent campy behavior. I was assuming worst case scenario since that's what Shanus is assuming too.

 

[Mattnumbers]

As a Lucas main I see myself using this on my dair so that I can pull of two in a row possibly, but really that isn't worth having a crappy shield for the rest of that stock. It should really depend on how much damage a move can do if MCed.

 

[Doval]

You do have to consider that if MC reduces ALL your landing lag then it can be used to guarantee a grab against the opponent (including Bowser's Koopa Claw and Ganon's Flame Choke/Dark Dive) with just about any character. Depending on the character that could very well be worth it. It could allow for shield pokes as well if the opponent didn't have a fresh shield when he blocked your aerial. (Fortunately Marth wouldn't be able to combo into Shield Breaker.)

That's not to say that having the attacker's shield damage be proportional to the amount of frames removed is a bad idea. I'm just saying, it's kinda hard to say just how powerful it'll be overall without actually testing it.

 

[NC-Echo]

QFT.

10char

Listen to the Bowser mains.

 

[The Cape]

The Bowser sheild damage buff I also disagree with mostly due to the fact that Bowser has no real sheild pressuring tools. Also his game is fairly grab centric and by tricking your opponent into sheilding you can actually land more grabs. By giving Bowser more sheild damage on his moves all you are doing is making the opponent a bit less wary of sheilding, hurting Bowser's grab game and giving him no real assistance.

Dair might be a good choice for more sheild damage, but thats about it. F smash should also be an almost instant sheild breaker IMO due to its slow speed and relative ease at dodging it. Other than that, dont touch Bowser's increased sheild damage as its not a buff that will assist him at all.

 

[NC-Echo]

The Bowser sheild damage buff I also disagree with mostly due to the fact that Bowser has no real sheild pressuring tools. Also his game is fairly grab centric and by tricking your opponent into sheilding you can actually land more grabs. By giving Bowser more sheild damage on his moves all you are doing is making the opponent a bit less wary of sheilding, hurting Bowser's grab game and giving him no real assistance.

Dair might be a good choice for more sheild damage, but thats about it. F smash should also be an almost instant sheild breaker IMO due to its slow speed and relative ease at dodging it. Other than that, dont touch Bowser's increased sheild damage as its not a buff that will assist him at all.

I'm glad to see you agree. Since you're part of WBR, hopefully we can see more necessary changes coming to Bowser instead of proposed ones like shield damage increase. I would really really love to see IASA frames on Firebreath, but I know you like that idea so I wont bug you about it.

 

[shanus]

I'm glad to see you agree. Since you're part of WBR, hopefully we can see more necessary changes coming to Bowser instead of proposed ones like shield damage increase. I would really really love to see IASA frames on Firebreath, but I know you like that idea so I wont bug you about it.

He actually doesn't like Fire IASA as far as I know, but prefers Flame Cancelling (like in melee), so we are working on that.

 

[NC-Echo]

He actually doesn't like Fire IASA as far as I know, but prefers Flame Cancelling (like in melee), so we are working on that.

When I mentioned the idea of IASA frames on is Fire, Cape responded positively; perhaps, I misunderstood. Either way, I hope that some improvement is made to his Firebreath as it is now you usually get punished for using it by skilled players who can sdi effectively.

 

[The Cape]

Well the IASA frame was a good idea, but after thinking about it it would end too quickly. I see firebreath to F tilt >.>

However, a slight sweeping speedup on the ending of the firebreath animation would be a better solution than the IASA and flame cancel would be too cool.