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[Shadic]

Does Charizard have the same problem with his flames?

 

[NC-Echo]

Yea I can see firebreath IASA perhaps being too powerful. Flame-canceling should suffice, I would just like it so I don't get punished when I land a Firebreath; It can be difficult to land on some characters as it is. You wouldn't wanna divulge what you have in store for him would you.?

I responded, by the way, to your questions about increasing damage on Bowser's moves and what I thought would be good. In case you missed it, I would like to see damage on the non-sweetspot of up-b increased. As it stands now it does only 5%. As a staple in Bowser's move-set I believe that strengthening that a little could help him keep more. What do you think?

 

[Plum]

Does Charizard have the same problem with his flames?

Even if Charizard's flamethrower had similar issues, consider how much better of a character Charizard is than Bowser :V

Charizard really doesn't need anything. He is one of those characters (like Donkey Kong for another example) who have some excellent strengths that make them a very dangerous threat in the right hands, but abusing his weaknesses is easy for most characters.

 

[GameSystem]

Well the IASA frame was a good idea, but after thinking about it it would end too quickly. I see firebreath to F tilt >.>

However, a slight sweeping speedup on the ending of the firebreath animation would be a better solution than the IASA and flame cancel would be too cool.

I thought WBR wasn't going to do that because of the frame speed code limitations. Is that no longer a problem since PSA came out or something?

 

[zxeon]

I don't play Wolf and I know he doesn't need any buffs but I wanted to get some cool ideas I had out there for people to look at and gage some reactions.

First is:
JC Blaster
IASA jump frames on the frames right after the shot leaves the blaster.

Second is:
Blaster Fake Out
IASA (not restricted to just jump you can do anything out of it) frames before the hitboxes for the attack come out. and only before the attack hits.

Tell me what you think.

 

[IC3R]

Would Kirby get the same changes to his Neutral B if Bowser got a speed-up on his Firebreath cooldown?

 

[zxeon]

I'm thinking no.

 

[camelot]

IC3R, you mean, if Kirby had copied Bowser's ability?

 

[V-K]

Is there a way to reduce knockback of throws?
Because especially up throw is actually completely useless against light characters like Lucario because it´s too strong and doesn´t lead into combos.

 

[Isatis]

I thought WBR wasn't going to do that because of the frame speed code limitations. Is that no longer a problem since PSA came out or something?

They found frame speed mods in PSA, I last heard.

Triangle.

 

[NC-Echo]

I don't play Wolf and I know he doesn't need any buffs but I wanted to get some cool ideas I had out there for people to look at and gage some reactions.

First is:
JC Blaster
IASA jump frames on the frames right after the shot leaves the blaster.

Second is:
Blaster Fake Out
IASA (not restricted to just jump you can do anything out of it) frames before the hitboxes for the attack come out. and only before the attack hits.

Tell me what you think.

If Wolf doesn't need any buffs, this seems like a mute point. However for the sake of playing along, your first idea seems a little too powerful.

Is there a way to reduce knockback of throws?
Because especially up throw is actually completely useless against light characters like Lucario because it´s too strong and doesn´t lead into combos.

I'm not sure about its effectiveness vs. lucario but as it is now, Bowsers u-throw is the only throw he can combo out of it. It works vs. I would say well over half the cast.

 

[GameSystem]

IASA would be too broken. What might be better is to have DJC properties on blaster so it stops his ascension and he goes back down. It might make it too similar to falco shl so idk.

 

[Doval]

JC Blaster
IASA jump frames on the frames right after the shot leaves the blaster.

Couldn't it be used to spam at a higher rate?

Blaster Fake Out
IASA (not restricted to just jump you can do anything out of it) frames before the hitboxes for the attack come out. and only before the attack hits.

Seems harmless enough without being actually useless.

 

[zxeon]

IASA would be too broken. What might be better is to have DJC properties on blaster so it stops his ascension and he goes back down. It might make it too similar to falco shl so idk.

It wouldn't be too similar since Falco's FF Laser is way faster than that would be and Wolf's animation doesn't cancel on landing.

 

[Doval]

If Wolf doesn't need any buffs, this seems like a mute point

Not every addition is a straight-up buff. Like Fox's addition of the JC shine, it was more to make his gameplay more interesting than to buff him. In the case of the fake-out it just adds more mindgames without actually buffing him.

It wouldn't be too similar since Falco's FF Laser is way faster than that would be and Wolf's animation doesn't cancel on landing.

That's true, but he could still fire off two in quick succession. Kinda like how Samus fires off two missiles in a row by landing, except with Wolf it'd be backwards - fire two shots in a row by jumping.

 

[zxeon]

That's true, but he could still fire off two in quick succession. Kinda like how Samus fires off two missiles in a row by landing, except with Wolf it'd be backwards - fire two shots in a row by jumping.

I was talking about GameSystem's DJC idea that kills upward momentum for Wolf and makes him level out in midair. It could even be executed int the same way Falco's FF Laser is.

 

[Doval]

I was talking about GameSystem's DJC idea that kills upward momentum for Wolf and makes him level out in midair. It could even be executed int the same way Falco's FF Laser is.

Ah, I see. Sorry about the confusion.

Can't comment on that one then. Haven't played any Wolf players so I don't know how good Wolf is at spamming or how much of an improvement giving him better height control would be.

 

[Dan_X]

If Wolf doesn't need any buffs, this seems like a mute point. However for the sake of playing along, your first idea seems a little too powerful.

I believe you meant "moot."

As for Wolf, I'm not sure Wolf's Blaster needs any changes. It's short ranged, sure, but it's useful. In fact, the short range generally helps Wolf more than it hurts as when his laser is reflected it doesn't usually make it back to him. It fires quickly enough to gain stage control, oftentimes halting horizontal approaches and forcing aerial approaches which is exactly what Wolf wants, thanks to his great aerial priority. His laser is also useful for gimping.

In addition, his blaster hits crouching, and crawling enemies, which few if any projectiles in the game can. Let's not forget that the firing animation also has hitboxes, making it even more difficult to approach whilst he's shooting.

I really don't think Wolf needs any changes to his blaster. Each Spacy's lasers function differently.

Fox's is strictly to wrack up damage
Falco's is to lead into attacks, while wracking up damage, and spacing.
Wolf's is to force the enemy into the air, and spacing.

 

[zxeon]

It's not really a change because you can keep using it the same way you always have. It's more of an enhancement. Neither of those Ideas would make you change they way you shoot your blaster but rather give new options for mix-ups, mind games and such.

Forget about jC Blaster It's too good. Also I'm gonna amend Blaster fake out.

Blaster Fake Out
IASA (not restricted to just jump you can do anything out of it) frames before the hitboxes for the attack come out but only while grounded, and only before the attack hits.

 

[NC-Echo]

In that situation "mute" and "moot" are actually intercangeable.

On a separate note: I rescind my statement about Bowser and his shield damage. I messed around with increasing the values of shield damage and what I didn't realize until now is that increasing shield damage also increases shield stun slightly. Therefore increasing shield damage would be a good thing for him because it would make a select few of his moves safe. So my bad for speaking to soon.... Please let us bowsers have the increased shield stun... It would be good....

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Couldn't you just spam the blaster animation then (not the hitboxes obviously)

so you could like mindgame stuff? That would be cool.


AND OMG THE SET IS COMING OUT TODAY OR TOMORROW!!!


Echo, you mean "interchangeable" not "entercangeable"

 

[leafgreen386]

K people, can we please stop calling M-canceling "MCing?" It gets confusing when there's already a term called "MCing," which is meteor canceling. Actually, can we just stop talking about this in general? It would be stupidly hard to make work and not be broken. It'd either be amazing and used by everyone or it would be really mediocre and only useful for a couple characters that just happen to get broken shield combos out of it. Not to mention that a "partial" lag reduction some of you have mentioned... is more or less worthless. You already get a "partial" lag reduction. By 50% at that. Even if you cut lag down to 25%, it wouldn't be that significant for most characters.

On shields...

If decay is the same, regen definitely isn't

No. They're both the same. The spacies in melee just had more efficient shield pressure tactics than most characters did.

Now for specific characters:

Wolf: Wolf does not need a JCable blaster. I doubt he'll be getting any more buffs at all after this set, actually. This set, he's getting a nair that properly multihits and connects through the end and a uair with a hitbox designed for hitting shorties. His shine is being made slightly less effective for combo breaking by moving up the invincibility to start frame 3 instead of frame 1, but in exchange he's getting some slight IASA on the aerial shine, which will allow shine -> bair with extremely tight timing. We're also trying to get his upB to connect better, and if anything of his gets buffed after this, that will probably be it.

Bowser: I agree with just the slight speedup on firebreath and giving him flame cancel instead of an IASA. In exchange making flamethrower considerably easier to get out of.

...and as I thought, raising shield damage in PSA also raises shieldstun. Which means we could be giving bowser an actually good shield pressure game if these shield damage increases go through >_>

 

[NC-Echo]

K people, can we please stop calling M-canceling "MCing?" It gets confusing when there's already a term called "MCing," which is meteor canceling. Actually, can we just stop talking about this in general? It would be stupidly hard to make work and not be broken. It'd either be amazing and used by everyone or it would be really mediocre and only useful for a couple characters that just happen to get broken shield combos out of it. Not to mention that a "partial" lag reduction some of you have mentioned... is more or less worthless. You already get a "partial" lag reduction. By 50% at that. Even if you cut lag down to 25%, it wouldn't be that significant for most characters.

On shields...

No. They're both the same. The spacies in melee just had more efficient shield pressure tactics than most characters did.

Now for specific characters:

Wolf: Wolf does not need a JCable blaster. I doubt he'll be getting any more buffs at all after this set, actually. This set, he's getting a nair that properly multihits and connects through the end and a uair with a hitbox designed for hitting shorties. His shine is being made slightly less effective for combo breaking by moving up the invincibility to start frame 3 instead of frame 1, but in exchange he's getting some slight IASA on the aerial shine, which will allow shine -> bair with extremely tight timing. We're also trying to get his upB to connect better, and if anything of his gets buffed after this, that will probably be it.

Bowser: I agree with just the slight speedup on firebreath and giving him flame cancel instead of an IASA. In exchange making flamethrower considerably easier to get out of.

...and as I thought, raising shield damage in PSA also raises shieldstun. Which means we could be giving bowser an actually good shield pressure game if these shield damage increases go through >_>

I hope it does go through, Bowser could use some help. I have been playing around with values and it seems good but not amazing. I think it could be just what he needs. I'm referring to the shield stun by the way.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

what exactly is the difference between a flame cancel and just straight up IASA?

 

[matt4300]

Bowser: I agree with just the slight speedup on firebreath and giving him flame cancel instead of an IASA. In exchange making flamethrower considerably easier to get out of.

...and as I thought, raising shield damage in PSA also raises shieldstun. Which means we could be giving bowser an actually good shield pressure game if these shield damage increases go through >_>

Sounds like sex.... That would help bowser so much. Being able to attack without fearing the dreaded shield grab. It would be a crime if someone disagreed with this.
Hopfully it happens this set and not the one months from now.

Though on the flame breath... Raiseing hitlag is already gonna make it easier to get out of... I hope you guys arent stacking this stuff until you only take like 6 damage from it... that would blow.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Cough nvm I guess the bowser stuff is being put in exchange for a delay.

 

[camelot]

what exactly is the difference between a flame cancel and just straight up IASA?

My guess is that "flame cancel" would have a certain window of frames where you could cancel out of it (like, you would have to time it right). IASA means "interruptable as soon as" frame, meaning after a certain frame, you can interrupt the move (think MK's u-air).

 

[IC3R]

IC3R, you mean, if Kirby had copied Bowser's ability?

Yeah, that's what I meant to say...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I know what IASA means. >.>

I just didn't exactly know what a flame cancel is.

But yes, that would make sense.

 

[GameSystem]

I think they meant the melee flame cancel. If you time it as you land from the air, fire breath comes out instantly with no startup.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh!!! I know what that is!!!


*continues patiently waiting for new set*

 

[VietGeek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdoz-RnvMiI

^ Flame Canceling for anyone else who needs to be clarified (also free hits to Gimpy <_<)

with Forward looking cute

 

[shanus]

The set is being released today or tomorrow. I don't think the bowser stuff will make this set.

No, we are taking our time to get things right. The set is like 95% done, but its more important to take our time and get things right.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh.... darn, I was really hoping to come home today to the new set. Ah well.


But please take your time if you need everything to be right.

 

[kupo15]

On shields...

No. They're both the same. The spacies in melee just had more efficient shield pressure tactics than most characters did.

Its not that I don't play against spacies but we noticed a difference in shields between the games with non spacies. If anything, Melee shields regen slower in air than on ground but Brawl regens the same in air.

 

[NC-Echo]

No, we are taking our time to get things right. The set is like 95% done, but its more important to take our time and get things right.

About when would you expect it? I would like people to be able to practice a little before my tournament since we are expected a pretty large turnout. I am also recording all semi-final and finals matches and running live-stream so it could be quite a bit of data for you.

 

[camelot]

edit: screwed up post, ignore this

 

[stingers]

bill you main bowser now? wtf

 

[IC3R]

Bowser's Firebreath canceling...
Kinda like Link and Toon Link's Quickdraw Arrow?

 

[shanus]

About when would you expect it? I would like people to be able to practice a little before my tournament since we are expected a pretty large turnout. I am also recording all semi-final and finals matches and running live-stream so it could be quite a bit of data for you.

I know, and we are keeping that in mind. I don't want to promise a day but tomorrow or wednesday should be a reasonable time frame.

So far, all tests with bowser flame cancel have been failures though.