Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[kupo15]

This includes buffer.

You cant buffer anything during the dead frame, so with 3 frame jumps, you'd always have 1 frame dead, even if you have 10 frame buffer. :V

We've been trying to figure out how to remove said dead frame because as it is now, you have a 25% chance of hitting it (assuming jumps are 4 frame)

Bringing them down to 3 frame increases that change to 33.3% and hitting a dead frame causes an empty jump or a late attack that can either hit with the wrong part of the hitbox, screw up your timing, or just not have any attack come out at all. Most of those scenarios, bad for you and get you punished.

So the dead frame occurs during the jump start? I thought it was the frame after. Weird how I never had problems with my faster jumps

 

[CountKaiser]

You never had problems with instant aerials, Kupo?

If that's the case, Maybe we should try upping it a bit just to see what happens.

EDIT: Also, I don't mean to complain, but Lucas's PK Fire is a little silly right now. The rate that he can spam it at is rather dumb, and the speedup given to it (1.4x I believe) needs a revision.

And in case you don't believe me, do a Ctrl+F on this

1A000113 3FB33333

And you will find it in the public txt. It's the code for Lucas's side B to be executed 1.4 times faster.

 

[Mattnumbers]

PK Fire is spammable, but it's fairly short range. Really I don't see how it's any worse than some of the other projectiles out there which actually go long range.

And if that code was left in accidentally, Me, SHeLL, and Stingers certainly didn't get any huge complaints from it.

Unless they have and just never told me.

Anyways, PK Fire gets worse the higher the skill of your opponent faster than other projectiles because it is fairly easy to predict and spotdodge/shield. Lucas also still has enough lag that if they dodge it they can punish afterwards assuming they are close enough to you.

Its Lucas's only move that can be used safely/effectively at mid-range when not edgeguarding.

The Alaska smash community pretty much knows how to dodge PK Fire, I really have to get creative with it, and I do get punished for using it on the ground.

Not to mention that the speedup doesn't affect the actual speed of the projectile, just the time before and after it shoots.

Additionally, this would hurt Lucas's PKF Tech chasing game.

 

[kupo15]

You never had problems with instant aerials, Kupo?

If that's the case, Maybe we should try upping it a bit just to see what happens.

No, I never really did. 1.34x jump start feels really good though.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmm, well how would one go about punishing PK fire? Just SHAD through it?

 

[GHNeko]

So the dead frame occurs during the jump start? I thought it was the frame after. Weird how I never had problems with my faster jumps

No no. It happens while you actually jump. I'm meshing them together because the dead frame is the first thing to actually occur the very next frame right after jump start. :V

 

[shanus]

No, I never really did. 1.34x jump start feels really good though.

I believe we are already using 1.3x

 

[kupo15]

No no. It happens while you actually jump. I'm meshing them together because the dead frame is the first thing to actually occur the very next frame right after jump start. :V

yea, that is what I thought. So just to make sure:

Jump start for char x is 5 frames

Press jump
Jump start for 5 frames
Dead frame on frame 6

Right?

I believe we are already using 1.3x

I think its still a little sluggish. You should test out a slightly higher one like 1.34 because it makes such a difference.

 

[GHNeko]

yea, that is what I thought. So just to make sure:

Jump start for char x is 5 frames

Press jump
Jump start for 5 frames
Dead frame on frame 6

Right?

Yes exactly. It's one frame yea, but really. It's still 1 frame too long. I've gotten punished for hitting that frame more times than I care to remember. The dead frame is really noticable when you play Short Hop Happy characters. *coughmariomarthjiggsdeethreecough*

 

[timothyung]

That's why I always fail to thunder stomp, and the stomp didn't even come out.... right?
Also, all characters are SH happy. lol

 

[Mattnumbers]

Hmm, well how would one go about punishing PK fire? Just SHAD through it?

Just keep approaching through it, once your close enough to punish Lucas from PKF lag, your still far enough from him that he has very little options with his short range. Usually I wavebounce the PKF when they get close, but that only works till you are near an edge.

SHADs, or even just spotdodges/rolls work great against PKF spam. I've been known to be a bit too liberal with my PKF use so I know that you can really get punished if they dodge it and they are fairly close to you.

It is a very useful projectile, yes, but not broken or overpowered. It's speedup is needed so that it works well with a faster paced game.

 

[GHNeko]

That's why I always fail to thunder stomp, and the stomp didn't even come out.... right?
Also, all characters are SH happy. lol

Some more than others. You should know that. <_<

 

[Shell]

Yeah, when wavebounced (and even when not) PK Fire pushes Lucas back a good deal. This is normally convenient for him, however, if you can advance through it with powershielding, you can push him towards the edge of the stage.

At this point he can't retreat without pushing himself of the edge, and if he does that, edge guard him. He's got a bag of recovery trixies, but many characters can cut right through them.

The speedup is not applied to the endlag, so it's as punishable speed-wise as ever, by the way.

Unfortunately, it's like one of the only things he has against a couple of matchups, but if you can suggest a better way for it to work, I'll listen.

 

[kupo15]

Yes exactly. It's one frame yea, but really. It's still 1 frame too long. I've gotten punished for hitting that frame more times than I care to remember. The dead frame is really noticable when you play Short Hop Happy characters. *coughmariomarthjiggsdeethreecough*

Yea, that is what I thought. Of course that glitch is stupid and needs to be removed but I don't understand why shortening 4 frame jumps to 3 would be a bad idea like Magus said. They seem unrelated.

 

[GHNeko]

Because you'd be more likely to come across the dead frame?

That's my assumption anyways.

 

[kupo15]

^^

How? Whether its a 2 frame jump or a 200 frame jump, you will still have a dead frame so it should interfere in both cases. If anything, a lower frame jump would be better to compensate for the dead frame so that it acts like its part of the jump start instead of getting in the way when you are able to perform actions

 

[goodoldganon]

We tried that and the dead frame just comes up later. If the dead frame was on frame 5 for example and we sped Falcon's jump to be only a frame he'd still have that random dead frame at frame 5. In theory we could drop his jump to 4 and to 'add' tech skill to the game we could say people with frame perfect timing could then get the attack off. But shanus and some others of us had tested this a long time ago. I'm not sure how true it stands today.

 

[kupo15]

We tried that and the dead frame just comes up later. If the dead frame was on frame 5 for example and we sped Falcon's jump to be only a frame he'd still have that random dead frame at frame 5. In theory we could drop his jump to 4 and to 'add' tech skill to the game we could say people with frame perfect timing could then get the attack off. But shanus and some others of us had tested this a long time ago. I'm not sure how true it stands today.

Oh. Now that is something that makes sense. What your telling me is that the dead frame stays in the same place and does not adjust itself to be the frame after jump start when its sped up?

Also, that sounds like a terrible AT. An AT based around hiding a glitch sounds terrible. That isn't adding positive tech skill anyway. That is adding arbitrary tech skill that serves no purpose.

 

[goodoldganon]

Oh. Now that is something that makes sense. What your telling me is that the dead frame stays in the same place and does not adjust itself to be the frame after jump start when its sped up?

Correct. That is the way this works. For example when i made Roy I tried to super speed up the frames where Marth was invincible for up-b. It didn't remove the invincibility frames, just moved them to a new spot. I don't believe we have found this mysterious dead frame on jumps with PSA hence why we can't use PSA to edit the frame away.

Make sense?

Also, that sounds like a terrible AT. An AT based around hiding a glitch sounds terrible. That isn't adding positive tech skill anyway. That is adding arbitrary tech skill that serves no purpose.

Hence the add was in quotes.

 

[Plum]

Yes exactly. It's one frame yea, but really. It's still 1 frame too long. I've gotten punished for hitting that frame more times than I care to remember. The dead frame is really noticable when you play Short Hop Happy characters. *coughmariomarthjiggsdeethreecough*

Oh GOD yes.
Hit the dead frame, miss an autocancel, and eat a stock because of it. Mario and Jiggs have nothing on DDD when it comes to being punished for the dead frame <_>
When DDD is punished, he is PUNISHED.

The DDD player in me is really pushing for less hitstun and the compensation needed to keep key combos :V

I say we keep all the Bread and Butter combos we have developed now, but make developing a successful combo/string from that point on more difficult. Smash skill carries over to a LARGE degree, but when virtually every top player admits the game is too easy (plenty admit they like the change of pace though, so we are at least doing some things right) then they must be on to something. We have all the tools to do it, so its just a matter of doing it right

Spoiler

There shouldn't be enough hitstun for Dair to Falcon Punch to register as a true combo in training mode ._.

 

[Doval]

Since it's been brought up again, I'd like throw in my support of moar hit lag once more. For your convenience here are the hit lag values for vBrawl, 60%, 79%, 80%, and most Melee values, for all relevant damage %'s. The values for vBrawl, 80% and Melee were obtained through counting in Debug Mode. The values for 60% and 79% were calculated (except for the 1% and 2% values for 79%, I confirmed that in-game to make sure no weird rounding errors occurred.)

%	vBrawl	60.00%	79.00%	Melee	80.00%
1.00%	4	2	2		3
2.00%	4	2	2	2	3
3.00%	5	2	3	3	3
4.00%	5	2	3	3	3
5.00%	5	2	3	3	3
6.00%	6	3	4	4	4
7.00%	6	3	4	4	4
8.00%	7	3	5	4	5
9.00%	7	3	5	5	5
10.00%	7	3	5	5	5
11.00%	8	4	6	5	6
12.00%	8	4	6	6	6
13.00%	9	5	6	6	7
14.00%	9	5	6	6	7
15.00%	9	5	6	7	7
16.00%	10	5	7	7	7
17.00%	10	5	7	7	7
18.00%	10	5	7	8	7
19.00%	11	6	8	8	8
20.00%	11	6	8	8	8
21.00%	12	6	9		9
22.00%	12	6	9	9	9
23.00%	12	6	9		9
24.00%	13	7	10	10	10
25.00%	13	7	10	10	10
26.00%	14	8	10		11
27.00%	14	8	10	11	11
28.00%	14	8	10	11	11
30.00%	15	8	11	12	11
32.00%	16	9	12		12
35.00%	17	9	13		13
37.00%	18	10	14		14

You can easily predict the new set of hit lag numbers for any Hit Lag % in Excel by taking the vBrawl values, adding 1, multiplying by the %, subtracting 1 and dropping all decimals with FLOOR(). The reason for the adding and the subtracting is that although the frame in which the hit connects on isn't DIable, it seems to count as a hit lag frame for the purposes of recalculating the new values with the hit lag code. So you need to add that 1 frame when doing the calculation, and subtract it again when you're done.

79% and 80% are both very close to Melee, but 80% pushes the hit lag for 1 and 2% damage attacks to 3 frames instead of 2 and 13/14% damage up to 7 instead of 6. The latter is mostly inconsequential, but the former can make escaping stuff like Fox's d-air easier.

 

[GHNeko]

Spoiler

There shouldn't be enough hitstun for Dair to Falcon Punch to register as a true combo in training mode ._.

training mode comes are wacked out though.

There are combos that can be escaped normally, but still register as a combo in Training mode.

Like how trip to falcon punch registers as a 2 hit combo even though you know you can escape. :V

 

[Dan_X]

Have we found a way to implement ledgetching yet? Also, are the ledge changes that we've disussed (smaller snap range, fixed NASL code, and no AS side-Bs) going to be part of the next build?

Seeing as how it's been a while since the last update, there many character tweaks underway for the next build. What characters are being tweaked, what changes have we come up with?

I can speak for Falco mains when I say we're eagerly looking forward to a more refined SHL Melee Style Falco. The SHL beta that Shanus issued in the Falco thread was pretty nice but sported some bugs as it wasn't updated with Falco's new physics as the final set will be.

In addition, we are expecting a few other Falco tweaks that can be found in the Falco+ thread.

I just want to colletively list what changes the next build will comprise of--- organizing the past slew of pages.

 

[Doval]

Yeah, Training Mode is weird, sometimes the % of moves is off by 1 point in Training Mode, and moves that should give less hit lag when shielded (e.g. Sheik's f-tilt) give the same hit lag as when they connect.

 

[Shell]

@Doval: Magus has gone through everyone's moves and hand-tweaked many of the Hitlag and SDI values. This will be part of the coming 5.0 official release.

@Orca, I believe we have found a way to fix ledgeteching, although I haven't tested it yet. I'll take a look at the Falco thread.

 

[kupo15]

Spoiler

There shouldn't be enough hitstun for Dair to Falcon Punch to register as a true combo in training mode ._.

There isn't anything wrong with that combo on fast fallers. It worked in melee. And speaking of which, this is even more mind blowing.

There should not be enough hitstun so that falcon can do a dash attack>knee combo or for fox to do a dthrow>run across the stage>usmash

 

[Doval]

@Doval: Magus has gone through everyone's moves and hand-tweaked many of the Hitlag and SDI values. This will be part of the coming 5.0 official release.

Oh. Sweet.

Also, could've sworn I had read that the new ledgeteching code was already in the 5.0 Nightly. Guess not.

 

[Dan_X]

@Orca, I believe we have found a way to fix ledgeteching, although I haven't tested it yet. I'll take a look at the Falco thread.

interesting, i'd be happy to help test ledgeteching if you guys need help.

Also, I'm going to head over the Falco thread and make a post to clarify the back and forth thoughts. Check it out when i've finished. ;D

thanks Shell.

 

[Revven]

for fox to do a dthrow>run across the stage>usmash

This can be avoided if you DI down away and tech... even when I'm DK I can avoid this silly "combo". Dash attack > knee has more to do with the angle DA sends at rather than the hitstun.

 

[goodoldganon]

This can be avoided if you DI down away and tech... even when I'm DK I can avoid this silly "combo". Dash attack > knee has more to do with the angle DA sends at rather than the hitstun.

Correct

I also don't see what's so wrong with DA > Knee. Falcon has a mess of other problems in B+ he didn't have in Melee so having one kinda silly combo isn't that absurd.

 

[Alphatron]

For the dead frame, would it be possible for us to eliminate it by adding IASA to the frame where it occurs?
Like if you have a DF on frame 5, you can interrupt it.

 

[GHNeko]

When we say we can't do anything to it. We mean it. <_>

 

[Dan_X]

@Shell: here's my post in the Falco thread.

 

[shanus]

Since it's been brought up again, I'd like throw in my support of moar hit lag once more. For your convenience here are the hit lag values for vBrawl, 60%, 79%, 80%, and most Melee values, for all relevant damage %'s. The values for vBrawl, 80% and Melee were obtained through counting in Debug Mode. The values for 60% and 79% were calculated (except for the 1% and 2% values for 79%, I confirmed that in-game to make sure no weird rounding errors occurred.)

%	vBrawl	60.00%	79.00%	Melee	80.00%
1.00%	4	2	2		3
2.00%	4	2	2	2	3
3.00%	5	2	3	3	3
4.00%	5	2	3	3	3
5.00%	5	2	3	3	3
6.00%	6	3	4	4	4
7.00%	6	3	4	4	4
8.00%	7	3	5	4	5
9.00%	7	3	5	5	5
10.00%	7	3	5	5	5
11.00%	8	4	6	5	6
12.00%	8	4	6	6	6
13.00%	9	5	6	6	7
14.00%	9	5	6	6	7
15.00%	9	5	6	7	7
16.00%	10	5	7	7	7
17.00%	10	5	7	7	7
18.00%	10	5	7	8	7
19.00%	11	6	8	8	8
20.00%	11	6	8	8	8
21.00%	12	6	9		9
22.00%	12	6	9	9	9
23.00%	12	6	9		9
24.00%	13	7	10	10	10
25.00%	13	7	10	10	10
26.00%	14	8	10		11
27.00%	14	8	10	11	11
28.00%	14	8	10	11	11
30.00%	15	8	11	12	11
32.00%	16	9	12		12
35.00%	17	9	13		13
37.00%	18	10	14		14

You can easily predict the new set of hit lag numbers for any Hit Lag % in Excel by taking the vBrawl values, adding 1, multiplying by the %, subtracting 1 and dropping all decimals with FLOOR(). The reason for the adding and the subtracting is that although the frame in which the hit connects on isn't DIable, it seems to count as a hit lag frame for the purposes of recalculating the new values with the hit lag code. So you need to add that 1 frame when doing the calculation, and subtract it again when you're done.

79% and 80% are both very close to Melee, but 80% pushes the hit lag for 1 and 2% damage attacks to 3 frames instead of 2 and 13/14% damage up to 7 instead of 6. The latter is mostly inconsequential, but the former can make escaping stuff like Fox's d-air easier.

we did move by move hitlag adjustments in the next set

 

[CloneHat]

So we're gonna have ledge teching, more hitlag, and all those Falco tweaks in the next build?

 

[Dan_X]

So we're gonna have ledge teching, more hitlag, and all those Falco tweaks in the next build?

I also saw mention of SA being on Bowser's crouch, like his crawl. Not sure if this is going to be implemented or not.

 

[Doval]

Out of curiosity, how do you adjust the hit lag of specific moves without touching its %?

 

[VietGeek]

There's a hitlag multiplier for each hitbox that you can edit in PSA.

 

[BlueFoxXT]

I like those Falco ideas, are they being implemented in the next nightly or two? Or are they just ideas from Falco+ boards?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

more electric hitlag, nerf falcons dash attack. screw his problems, I hate doing lame combos like that.