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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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SymphonicSage12

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well he means being able to jump out of a walltech.

walltechs do not exist in brawl; however, you can tech of the edge of a stage, but not the wall itself. right?


EDIT: nvm about the techjump thing. that sounds stupid. Like really dumb. dedede would cry at the concept.
 

SymphonicSage12

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Just call me Sage ^_^. although I might get confused with the totally awesomer thesage....


and I thought matt meant techjumping as in teching off the wall, and then jumping. Which was in melee but not in brawl.
 

CloneHat

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I've been able to tech jump by pressing jump while teching, which makes me leap off the wall instead of just teching it.

And tech jumping on the ground ruins tech chasing.

And about Magus cancel, would it be able to break your shield? It also seems very pointless for some characters who have almost no landing lag at all (Falcon, Squirtle, etc.) but only effective for the heavies. It's a fine idea, but I do not see it to be necessary.

Someone who really needs more skill to use is MK. My thoughts would be to take away transcendent priority and give many of his moves more lag, or less range. This would make him less spam-safe.

EDIT: That video was both a walltech, and what looks like a techjump.
 

xicsrh

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Except that's a entirely different concept (tmenrot was proposing a on ground tech that makes you jump), SymSage was merely asking about the kind Matt had explained. (Not to say the one in the thread is a bad idea, it's just not the point)
I was trying to explain what I meant in my post before the one you quoted (post 10672). I wasn't referring to what Matt said.
 

shanus

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techjumping was this terrible idea someone had to allow you to basically walljump tech from the ground.
 

Mattnumbers

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Someone who really needs more skill to use is MK. My thoughts would be to take away transcendent priority and give many of his moves more lag, or less range. This would make him less spam-safe.
I think they should just give all of MKs moves really bad priority so they clank with most other moves, that way he's a character with fast, decent ranged moves and gimps well, but can't kill outright and has bad priority, which would be a pretty unique character.
 

SymphonicSage12

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Not to burst your bubble, lord Shanus, but you're a little tardy to the party. Thanks for clarifying though :)

....just to reiterate that I could swear that you can't tech on the wall when someone hits you into it in brawl...
 

CloneHat

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I thought it was removed in the transition from melee to brawl....and like if jigglypuff hits you into the wall of fd with her fair, you can't tech it in vbrawl....
Teching was just hard in vBrawl. Have you NEVER wall teched in Brawl+? Corneria? DK's cargo stage spike? You gotta try it out.

I think they should just give all of MKs moves really bad priority so they clank with most other moves, that way he's a character with fast, decent ranged moves and gimps well, but can't kill outright and has bad priority, which would be a pretty unique character.
Fine by me, but we should ask some MK mains what they think.
 

Perfect Chaos

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Play a lot of matches on Shadow Moses Island, and you'll definitely see that you can. Even if one's tech timing is horrible, they'll tech it eventually... :laugh:

Edit: Yeah, wall-teching is hard in vBrawl, just because most of the time, you'll air-dodge instead if you press shield too early, and just collide with the wall and bounce off if you press it too late.
 

Doval

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It's a fine idea, but I do not see it to be necessary.
In all fairness a lot of the things that go into Brawl+ aren't necessary either. That doesn't mean it doesn't have potential to make the game deeper.

Removing the transcendent priority out of MK's ground attacks doesn't sound like a bad idea. It's hard to rationalize why he even has it in the first place...but I'm not a MK user so I could be wrong.
 

shanus

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i need a volunteer to test a pac which is mostly for amusement purposes who knew how to moonwalk well in melee :p

(I can't test on my wii currently)
 

TLMSheikant

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CC made some characters's lifes in melee hard. YL, Roy, etc all suffered because of it. Its better to not have it seriously. Its actually one of the only things I hate in melee LOL.
 

CloneHat

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I could see myself liking m-canceling...

But I feel a full case should be presented by both sides of the argument. M-canceling might prove imbalanced, who knows?

tl; dr Let's think about this one.
 

TLMSheikant

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I think its a good idea. Mcancelling would add more depth imo. And allow some characters more options (depth) for shield pressure :). I say go for it. Choosing between one or the other adds depth to the game.
 

Plum

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I think they should just give all of MKs moves really bad priority so they clank with most other moves, that way he's a character with fast, decent ranged moves and gimps well, but can't kill outright and has bad priority, which would be a pretty unique character.
Priority doesn't work like that.
You can't just assign a move priority. Its all governed by a few factors.

The only TRUE priority is on grounded attacks. That's when you can see something actually outprioritze something in the true sense of the meaning. A ground move's priority is determined by how much damage it does; within a certain range of % it will clank with any other ground move (I forget the range). So basically if I have a move that does 10% and you have a move that does 13% they will clank with each other. If I do say, 5% and you do 20% you will beat my move out due to the huge difference in damage.

In the air everything is determined by hitboxes and hurtboxes. Damage doesn't matter; as long as you can reach your opponent's hurtbox before they hit yours you will win. So long range aerials have high "priority" as do really quick aerials. Marth or Ike's Fair have a lot of priority because of how far they extend their hitbox without putting a hurtbox in reach. Luigi's Nair has high priority because it is so quick and hits frame 3.

It also explains why Falcon is considered to have such low priority due to how all of his moves tend to have large extended hurtboxes.

Invincibility, super armor or heavy armor will allow you to win out even if you shouldn't have by the other rules just because it allows you to ignore KB and stun.

Other then that there is also transcendent priority, and that the special effect MK has on almost all of his moves. In almost every situation it is a great thing; he can't clank with anything and will only be beaten out if you can hit his hurtbox first. Though it gives him a distinct weakness to projectiles. Every other character can cancel out at least some projectiles (some like G&W or DDD can cancel out a large majority) by clanking with them and that is something MK can't do at all.

Having TP on his aerials really doesn't do much as far as I know... Aerials are governed by hitboxes and hurtboxes, so the only thing that really matters in direct aerial combat is the range the moves have. Only way to lower his aerial priority is to give all of his aerials no range... bad idea. You could take away the TP on his ground moves where it would actually make a difference but then you just allow him to cancel out projectiles like every other character. So you get rid of a good thing but introduce something potentially more rewarding for him.

i need a volunteer to test a pac which is mostly for amusement purposes who knew how to moonwalk well in melee :p

(I can't test on my wii currently)
*drools* I'm all over that next time I'm at my Wii! That is too good Shanus, too good! I hope that works out correctly!
 

Mattnumbers

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I forgot that aerials can't clank, but the rest of that I already knew pretty much.

We could also nerf him by just making his good moves worse you know, such as Dair and Nair and Uair.
 

CloneHat

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Then he would still be risk-less and spammy, it just takes longer to kill people.

And aerials can clank. I've seen it. Olimar uair and D3 dair actually clanks!
 

Plum

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If the WBR wants to nerf Dair, all it needs is a less harsh angle on the semispike. Something more horizontal, or even a very slight vertical angle.
Uair could be given more BKB and less KBG to compensate just so it doesn't constantly link into itself/shuttle loop.
Nair's sweetspot doesn't need to be as harsh/damaging, but I personally find Nair to be fine.

It would make his gimping less "instagimp" and limit Uair strings sure, but it doesn't stop MK from dominating... He still has every ability to limit your options while keeping himself safe. Only way to stop that is to seriously change the character design... He is just too perfect... At least that's the way I see him.
 

Mattnumbers

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There are ways you could nerf them to make them be less safe, it's not like the only thing we can do to them is nerf their damage and KB

EDIT: Ninja'd by plum

And also, If there is a choice between changing a characters playstyle and having to leave a character OP because of their playstyle, the former is a much better choice.
 

Plum

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You could give them some heavy cooldown or start up lag I guess but I honestly don't see what can truly limit how safe he is without taking away his speed/range; quite frankly I don't think his character traits should be thrown away like that.

Somebody just inform me :V
 
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