Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[JCaesar]

MK will be balanced when he is unselectable

 

[cAm8ooo]

landing lag on his upb and remove the invin. frames?

I'm pretty sure the invin. frames was removed already.

If your talking about giving landing lag to his G-air then that's a horrible idea. You completely destroy the move because it's insta punish against metaknight. His options are basically: Cancel with g-air and still get lag and punished or dont cancel with g-air and still get lag and punished.

G-air is not even that good of a move to be honest.

 

[Dai Tian]

Metaknight's an annoying issue. He's a small, fast multiple jumper with a sword and quick strikes. He's basically built to be good. But take away his swift moves or limit his jumps or anything like that and... he's not really Meta anymore. It's like saying Ganon is too good so let's give him half his kill power.

I remember a long while ago in this thread it was brought up that some of the angles on Meta's moves could be changed as they set up too easily for edgeguards and I could agree with that. Changes to his down throw, his dair and maybe even his down smash could be made so that they're not so horizontal/semispike. I think his nair and forward smash should remain his outright kill moves but arguably his nair could be nerfed a bit too.

He's supposed to be floaty but if it could be made so that he has more trouble escaping combos (like a fastfaller does) while still keeping him relatively floaty then that could be tried out. Problem is making him fall faster would likely help him too so...

And yeah, it was mentioned that the invincibility frames on his up B were going to be removed before. I remember they said maybe the TP on his forward smash could go too so that it could clank with moves.

Meta's always gonna be able to run wild and **** face, but if he ***** just a smidge less or has a harder time doing it then that's no problem. I've played enough Metaknight- up to now to have a good feeling about him being able to take more nerfs and still be good. And I'm sure more than enough people that fight him can agree with that.

 

[Dan_X]

What? The non-canceled landing lag would be the same or near what it is currently. It would be an additional option available, that slower characters would reap much larger rewards from than faster characters who gain little. The exact opposite of what you said would be true.

Oops, I apologize Magus. It's been so long since we've discussed Magus Cancel that I forgot its actual intended properties, in addition, the explanation of MC that sparked the topic mislead my understanding of MC. I'm not opposed to MC at all after re-familiarizing myself with it.

EDIT: nvm.

So basically the non cancelled landing lag would be like it is now, and l-cancelling would lower it even MORE, in the exchange for shield damage? I actually like the idea.

Yeah, I just realized that too. Oops.

 

[Plum]

MK will be balanced when he is unselectable

Don't forget the other option of turning the CSS into MK in 39 slots

Spoiler

and Snake in the 40th slot :V

Pretty balanced cast if I do say so myself.

Spoiler

Brownie points to the first person who finds the picture of that CSS :V

 

[bob-e]

I've been thinking a bit about things that could be done to make Brawl+ less overall ez mode without adding arbitrary ATs, and I think it could really come down to removing the buffer.

All reducing the hit stun will do for Brawl+ is cut down on the number of possible combos, but I don't think the combos that remain will be much harder. It won't matter if the frame advantage on an attack goes from 8 to 4; as long the buffer is in place, capitalizing on that advantage will be a piece of cake because it can give you a huge window to input the next attack. Things that can easily be done just by mashing buttons like double fair combos with Marth, or a perfect IAP from Falco actually take some careful timing without the buffer.

Though I'm sure removing something that most people have grown accustomed to playing with wouldn't be well received.

On the subject of MK:

Nair almost instantly shields him with a high priority disjointed hitbox, lasts a long time, the weak hit can lead into almost anything at low %, and can set up for a tech chase higher. I really can't think of much that could be done to nerf it asides from giving it landing lag from vBrawl, because let's be honest, he was already pretty **** fast.

Up air combos into itself until you run out of jumps, and finished off with a shuttle loop. Maybe higher base with less growth would fix it so you can't just combo it by spamming jump->uair->jump->uair->jump->uair->jump->uair->jump->uair

And then there's down air. On any other character, it wouldn't really be an issue. I mean, it's just another semi spike, right? Only problem is that with MK's 5 air jumps, he can float off stage and spam something that gimps you as hard as Fox's shine for the half the duration of your recovery without any worry of getting back to the stage. A move that gimps like that on a character who can hang in the air like MK should probably have 2 or 3 times the wind down it currently does.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If your talking about giving landing lag to his G-air then that's a horrible idea. You completely destroy the move because it's insta punish against metaknight. His options are basically: Cancel with g-air and still get lag and punished or dont cancel with g-air and still get lag and punished.

Using g-air is not the only way to cancel the guide, though. It's possible to make g-air have a little landing lag, so that if you hit with it, you won't be punished, but if you don't, then you can be. And if you don't want lag out of a glide, then simply press B to cancel it that way and not get any lag, but also not attack.

 

[camelot]

Don't forget the other option of turning the CSS into MK in 39 slots

Spoiler

and Snake in the 40th slot :V

Pretty balanced cast if I do say so myself.

Spoiler

Brownie points to the first person who finds the picture of that CSS :V

 

[Glick]

Well the thing about MK you have to remember is that he isn't supposed to kill early via power.

He gets his kills by gimping and he is allowed to combo ridiculously because he isn't supposed to be able to kill early.

Whether or not he kills way to early is another discussion.

But nerfing his gimping ability would be pretty stupid.

If anything add landing lag to nair, take out invincibility in up b and make the fsmash have a smaller hitbox/less power.

Though I think MK is fine the way he is. His up b invincibility is ******** though. No reason for him to have it.

 

[Plum]

Use that CSS and B+ is perfectly balanced <3

Good work everybody, we've put in a lot of effort into balancing this new cast :V

Spoiler

You just won the intrawebs or something camelot.

 

[CountKaiser]

The speedup is not applied to the endlag, so it's as punishable speed-wise as ever, by the way.

Unfortunately, it's like one of the only things he has against a couple of matchups, but if you can suggest a better way for it to work, I'll listen.

Actually, the line that is supposed to return the PK fire to normal speed was removed. Check for yourself, it isn't there.


Hmmm, you could speed up the endlag a bit and make it send at a different angle, or mess with the KB.

I don't have a problem with the move, I just hate how spammable it is. It honestly looks dumb. =/

 

[Mattnumbers]

Actually, the line that is supposed to return the PK fire to normal speed was removed. Check for yourself, it isn't there.


Hmmm, you could speed up the endlag a bit and make it send at a different angle, or mess with the KB.

I don't have a problem with the move, I just hate how spammable it is. It honestly looks dumb. =/

Nah, that would mess up a lot of PK Fire usage, as it is right now PKF is great for punishing because if they miss techs/tech the wrong way they will get hit by it again and again till they do it right or you reach the edge of the stage.

Really, I don't think we should alter it's angle/KB.

 

[thesage]

Lucas is fine leave him alone.

 

[Rudra]

Perfection.

Wow, who would have thought that there was a way to perfectly balance Brawl? Good work. =D

Spoiler

lolsnake

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

@ cam: no I mean upb. it has invis frames and you can spam it when cancel it with a. I think when landing with it, it should lag like most upb's when they hit the ground.

 

[Nybb]

We should add a burst mechanic where you can press L + R to instantly break out of any combo and damage your opponent, but after you do it you can't shield for the rest of the match.

Spoiler

Anyone else been playing too much BlazBlue?

Has anyone been thinking about implementing the Magus Cancel? Or has it already been decided against/ deemed too difficult to code?

For those who are unfamiliar with the idea, its an L-cancel that eats up your shield upon activation. So you can't just mindlessly cancel your attacks, and have to judiciously choose your combos.

I personally think it would be a great addition, so long as the shield's recharge time was cut down (just a tad). With the current growth, I think the risk/reward would be skewed.

I would just like to throw in that this sounds like a really cool idea that I would be down with trying at some point in the future, after we sort out all the other recent ideas like dodge nerfs, edge game changes, and lower hitstun + faster jumps (all of which I support). Looking forward to the next build a lot, keep up the good work WBR.

 

[kupo15]

I thought it was removed in the transition from melee to brawl....and like if jigglypuff hits you into the wall of fd with her fair, you can't tech it in vbrawl....

Sigh

Wall teching-teching the wall during hitstun or during the tumble animation with moves that send you towards the wall
Wall teching jump-Holding up during a wall tech to do a wall jump tech (even those who can't wall jump)
Wall teching then jump-Normal wall tech followed by a double jump
Ledge teching-Wall teching moves that send away from the stage via SDI into the wall
Ledge tech jump-Ledge teching with a wall jump
Ledge tech then jump-Ledge tech then do a double jump
Tech jumping-Wall tech jump animation from the ground (proposed, awful AT idea)

Get your terms straight -__-

Here is your test. What is this?

I think its a good idea. Mcancelling would add more depth imo. And allow some characters more options (depth) for shield pressure . I say go for it. Choosing between one or the other adds depth to the game.

I think that some form of kb reduction would be neat just like 64 and maybe a reduced DI potency like we talked about earlier. But def not a melee clone because I hated that

 

[Shell]

Actually, the line that is supposed to return the PK fire to normal speed was removed. Check for yourself, it isn't there.


Hmmm, you could speed up the endlag a bit and make it send at a different angle, or mess with the KB.

I don't have a problem with the move, I just hate how spammable it is. It honestly looks dumb. =/

That bug was ID'd in the time since the 5.0 nightly was released. It's already fixed in the WBR nightlies we're assembling in preparation for 5.0 official.

 

[Shadic]

Random Metaknight crap/nerf ideas:

Less KB on Nair
Up his hitstun marginally (Captain Falcon counterpick? Sweet VBrawl Tier-list justice!)
Change Angle on several moves (Such as DThrow) to make them harder to follow-up on.
Slightly higher BKB on UAir, harder followups (I hope?)


..I don't play much MK these days.

 

[colored blind]

If we just continuously nerf MK, while justified, it just starts to become a slap in the face to anyone who plays him in B+, where he's already at a big loss as compared to vB. We need to take away how easy he is to play as, not necessarily just straight up nerfs. Like how Fox traded the ******** Dair > Usmash for the nifty JC Shine in a recent build.

Maybe make DC able to do something like QAC? The range is a lot shorter, so if tinkered with a bit, it could be a neat techchase move...Dthrow > read DI > DC to Nair, Uair, whatever. I don't know. The point is, handing out straight nerfs without giving MKs a neat incentive to keep playing him is kinda ********, imo.

 

[GHNeko]

Let's make Down B actually worth something.

I think I'm the only MK who seriously uses that move outside of recovery in Brawl in general, let alone plus. :V

 

[metaXzero]

Give it more KB for starters? Last time I checked, it's punishable on HIT before 20% and doesn't KO until after 150% on most characters on FD. And give it invincibility the moment he's invisible. You can hit him out of it pretty easily.

I'm moreso suggesting fixing stupid flaws with it then anything.

 

[timothyung]

CSS fixes for Samus/ZSS and Zelda/Shiek V2.1 please

 

[jalued]

Let's make Down B actually worth something.

I think I'm the only MK who seriously uses that move outside of recovery in Brawl in general, let alone plus. :V

i suggested that ages ago and everyone just laughed but yeah, MK is a serious problem, hes just too easy to play and far too spammy.... and i cant think of any changes that would give him a fox+ makeover


what about as his damage increases, so does hit histun? (so hes constantly easy to combo)

 

[Revven]

@ cam: no I mean upb. it has invis frames and you can spam it when cancel it with a. I think when landing with it, it should lag like most upb's when they hit the ground.

Right now, there is not enough stun from Shuttle Loop on the shield to actually "spam" it. You can roll away after Shuttle Loop hits your shield... hell you can even jump OOS and probably try to counterattack MK. Now, Glair is a different story. If MK Glairs your shield right now, he CAN chain that into a Shuttle Loop, but after that first hit, you can definitely roll away before he can Glair it again.

There is the fact that, yes, you can spam it when it isn't on an opponent's shield. The move has been fixed in our set we are going to release very soon.

The point is, there is no need to talk about nerfing MK because he has gotten quite a few nerfs in this next build.

 

[Dai Tian]

Right now, there is not enough stun from Shuttle Loop on the shield to actually "spam" it. You can roll away after Shuttle Loop hits your shield... hell you can even jump OOS and probably try to counterattack MK. Now, Glair is a different story. If MK Glairs your shield right now, he CAN chain that into a Shuttle Loop, but after that first hit, you can definitely roll away before he can Glair it again.

There is the fact that, yes, you can spam it when it isn't on an opponent's shield. The move has been fixed in our set we are going to release very soon.

The point is, there is no need to talk about nerfing MK because he has gotten quite a few nerfs in this next build.

Really now? Good to hear, it's probably the only time I'm interested in hearing about a character's nerfs

 

[jalued]

[QUOTE}very soon.

[/QUOTE]


:D when??????

 

[Alphatron]

Will the next nightly have tuant cancelling?!!1shift!

 

[proteininja]

Everyone seems so satisfied with the new fox. You can still just spam running attacks, up smashes, and forward smashes, and you will eventually win the match. They are extremely difficult to punish, and they are stupidly powerful. The running attack is a golden string starter.

Basically if anyone remembers me *****ing and moaning about my friend's falcon against my bowser. He played wolf a few matches the other day as wolf and was ****** me. So I picked fox, whom I never play. He usually 3 stocks me. I two stocked him with fox. Then I beat him again. Then I stopped playing fox because I felt dirty for the fact that I could throw out 15 up smashes a stock and hit with two and with some neutral airs to utilt throw in effectively ***** him.

When fox is spamming up smashes it is not like when some noob is spamming their fsmash where you just jump behind them and aerial. With his dash his usmash covers a huge distance , and by the time his endlag is over(which is negligable) he has either flown past you, or you just got usmashed.

Also, when I complained about the falcon vs bowser matchup I was told to CP. I have done this, and ultimately I should have to CP him(though I still think the matchup is a landslide). My problem is with the fact that it seems I have to CP every character with someone other than bowser. When vBrawl first came out, and I was going to tournaments I mained Bowser. Every...single...match I had to CP with a different character than my main. It was incredibly annoying. I may or may not have won the first game, but the problem was there was always a better character to deal with my current opponent. I can beat DK easily with Bowser, but why bother if I could pick fox or someother light, fast character and absolutely smash him into the ground(or the air in the UP smashes case).

Think about it.

Also, think about releasing another nightly. We have been discussing things for a while back and forth and it would be nice to actually just try it. Then we could actually make educated decisions.

 

[Dan_X]

The point is, there is no need to talk about nerfing MK because he has gotten quite a few nerfs in this next build.

I'm glad to hear that he's being further refined in the next build. MK is an interesting case when you think about it. He's spammy, has very safe off-stage options, multiple jumps, multiple recovery options, he's incredibly versatile. This versatility lends to the fact that it's easy to pick up MK and get good at him, requiring very little technical skill. Other characters, on the other hand, require tight combo windows, recovery limitations, and a wealth of tech skill to truly master. Yet, even despite the mastery that may go hand-in-hand with other characters, an MK player can easily out-match a refined player of another character, without having to master an overhaul of technical skill.

It's obviously not always the case that MK will win, but he's likely the BEST character in the game, and the time it takes to 'master' him takes considerably less time than other characters.

MK is notorious for his gimping game... what could probably be done to balance him more is to allow him to maintain that gimp game, at the cost of even LESS KO moves. His gimping game, and off stage excellence is what makes him fun to play, it's what makes him MK. I think it's probably fair to strip many of MKs killing options, forcing him to kill at much later percents, or gimp. He'd be a comboing beast sure, but he'd have to work for it too.

I don't have a wealth of experience versus a MK as my friend who played him for a while in vBrawl stopped on the basis that MK became known as being broken, or too good. The negative stigma got him to stop playing him. I was probably happy by this notion at the time too, I hated fighting his MK, he wasn't even specifically skilled with him, it's just that in the few times he'd pick him up he'd shut down my mains, and it was extremely aggravating.

Either way, I'm curious as to what changes have been made to MK in the next build, and am looking forward to its release!

EDIT:

Also, when I complained about the falcon vs bowser matchup I was told to CP. I have done this, and ultimately I should have to CP him(though I still think the matchup is a landslide). My problem is with the fact that it seems I have to CP every character with someone other than bowser. When vBrawl first came out, and I was going to tournaments I mained Bowser. Every...single...match I had to CP with a different character than my main. It was incredibly annoying. I may or may not have won the first game, but the problem was there was always a better character to deal with my current opponent. I can beat DK easily with Bowser, but why bother if I could pick fox or someother light, fast character and absolutely smash him into the ground(or the air in the UP smashes case).

Think about it.

Also, think about releasing another nightly. We have been discussing things for a while back and forth and it would be nice to actually just try it. Then we could actually make educated decisions.

I have no experience fighting an.. experienced Bowser. With that said, I have no idea how good he can be, what his potential is in B+. I do recognize however that he gets reamed hard by combo heavy characters. You don't have to fight him much to recognize that. My friend, on occasion, will pick random characters to play for fun, and sometimes that's Bowser. Either way, despite Bowser's sheer power, he's really easy to combo, and that's no surprise. The problem is he's a HUGE target, and a faster faller, which makes him ridiculous combo bait. However, that's how the physics should work for him, he shouldn't be a lightweight, or floaty, nor should he be anything other than a fast faller. However, how can we put him on an even playing field with his size and psychics disadvantages?

It's tricky, really. SA on his crawl is a good start. It'd probably make sense to put SA on his crouch as well. He needs a way to either,

A) Escape combos more easily
B) more deadly set-ups into KO moves, so that despite having a lack of combos he has a few strings of little but very devastating combos.

In the end, my ideas regarding Bowser are simply ignorant uneducated thoughts. I have no legitimate knowledge of Bowser, I'm just going on the assumption that Bowser has a VERY difficult time dealing with the likes of Fox, Falcon, etc-- which I pretty sure is true. Just brainstorming I how to help him I guess.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Proteinja- play better. No, seriously. Stop complaining and just get better.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Proteinja- play better. No, seriously. Stop complaining and just get better.

Hey, he made an educated, well thought out post, your not helping AT ALL. You don't know at what skill level he plays at, and until you actually know what your talking about or have something constructive to say, don't even bother posting.

 

[timothyung]

Falcon MIGHT be OP against Bowser, but we can't nerf Falcon just because one person thinks so. And you might just be bad at the Bowser vs Falcon match-up.

 

[Dan_X]

Hey, he made an educated, well thought out post, your not helping AT ALL. You don't know at what skill level he plays at, and until you actually know what your talking about or have something constructive to say, don't even bother posting.

Well put. How do you other Bowser mains feel about Bowser in Brawl+? How does he perform in comparison to his vBrawl doppelganger?

EDIT:

Falcon MIGHT be OP against Bowser, but we can't nerf Falcon just because one person thinks so. And you might just be bad at the Bowser vs Falcon match-up.

Oh, obviously not lol.

How does Bowser fair against Falco now that he has SA on crawl? I'd imagine this would help him quite a bit, as I main Falco... however, as one can infer from my previous posts, I don't fight Bowser regularly, or a good one at that.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well put. How do you other Bowser mains feel about Bowser in Brawl+? How does he perform in comparison to his vBrawl doppelganger?

EDIT:



Oh, obviously not lol.

How does Bowser fair against Falco now that he has SA on crawl? I'd imagine this would help him quite a bit, as I main Falco... however, as one can infer from my previous posts, I don't fight Bowser regularly, or a good one at that.

We're talking about FalcoN, not FalcO Orca

 

[kr3wman]

Falcon is at maximum 6:4 on Bowser.

Learn the matchup.

 

[proteininja]

The SA on his crawl or crouch or anything does not help at all. It is completely useless because as soon as i start trying to approach through the lasers he just jumps in at a diagonal so I can't d tilt, and before i can stand and f tilt or u tilt I have been hit. It doesn't help at all.

I don't know how it would work out, but I would remove the SA on his crawl and put it on his run. This would help him I think because he can then approach with a running u smash which covers a lot more area, or he could end it with a side b. The point is he has no options to finish off his approach out of crawl. It is slow predictable and ultimately doesn't help because you are taking damage without gaining any advantage. I can't put into words exactly what I'm thinking, but the gist is SA on crawl is completely useless, and frankly was just a dirty band-aid so that when I come and complain about falco wbr members can come spam me with "LOLZ crawl has Super Armorsz L2P!!!!!!!!1"

On another point you can never know how good or bad I am, so I am trying to be as logical and methodical as possible in my complaints.

If I had to change things about bowser it would not be to give him more approach options. He is a turtle after all. I would remove all of this super armor on crawl nonsense, and focus on giving him the ability to exploit an advantage. He is big, his is slow, he is combo jail bait. Focus when I manage to finally break a combo or I manage to somehow approach I can exploit it with more than Utilt, utilt, uair, uair(**** that combo is getting boring on falcon). Bowser is a giant box of **** when it comes to edge-guarding. The forward and back throw buffs went a long way to helping that. Also the 2x neutral air form last set was amazing, but sadly it was also amazingly broken. It helped his tech chase game incredibly but perhaps he wasn't meant to tech chase. I would like to see a 1.5x neutral air(hopefully with its stupid semi spike angle, and please stop nerfing the flame breath. I understand why it was too good, but please if I get them off stage with bowser I deserve a little BBQ. The final change i propose would be to let his fortress hit box come out a little earlier to further punish aggression. Ultimately this will make campy characters camp mor, but it will make combo characters feel the pain. I believe Bowser should be CP'd with projectile spammers not every character in the game. He should also be easy to combo, but give him the ability to exploit an advantage if he can get out of those two situations.

TLMsheikant if no one complained then the characters with less mains would never be as good as the others.

 

[kupo15]

What bowser needs is the ability to get people off the stage quickly. Hitstun hurts him with how much it is. With the reduction of hitstun and a cleaned up ledge mechanics, Bowser should be better off. Maybe make some of his moves stronger. Don't try and turn him into a combo character like falcon because it won't work.

 

[proteininja]

What bowser needs is the ability to get people off the stage quickly. Hitstun hurts him with how much it is. With the reduction of hitstun and a cleaned up ledge mechanics, Bowser should be better off. Maybe make some of his moves stronger. Don't try and turn him into a combo character like falcon because it won't work.

I agree. I was trying to suggest per character changes, but some game mechanic changes might help. I wouldn't presume to know what exactly to change though.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

proteininja do you have any matches uploaded? if not, could you try to get some? i'd like to see what skill level you are at.