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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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JCaesar

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... he said he was playing Melee Pikachu when he was owning your with Brawl+ Pikachu? Clearly a failed attempt to insult Brawl+. Failed 'cos Melee Pikachu sucked and Melee is obviously a lot harder than PikaPika thinks.
PikaPika is (or was, it's been a couple years since I've seen him play) really good at Melee. Just FYI. You shouldn't assume things like that.

I thought he was a Sheik main though, but I'm sure he played Pika too.

A lot of staple combos probably would be preserved in lower hitstun if everybody just reached the apex of their jumps those few frames earlier that would be lost from a lower hitstun constant. A key example of something being lost but easily retained through hitting their peak jump height earlier would be DK's Cargo Toss > Uair. Staple Bum combo right there, and a key example of something that works with the hitstun right now, but any lower it would be lost. If DK reaches his max height a few frames earlier, tada!

My guess is that most combos would be preserved in such a matter, and we have every ability to keep them regardless. IASA or simply less endlag on the select moves would then be done if simply faster jump speeds (read, NOT fall speeds :V) alone do not preserve those bread and butter combos certain characters cannot afford to loose.

Once the next Nightly is released I would love to see a test set for these kind of changes. Kupo has done one thing right (I'm not saying its the only thing, its just the one thing I'm pointing out ._.) and that is get all of us focused on the game's physics. These arguments now are crucial, and for all we know characters will magically fall into place once they are set. One can dream...
Thank you! This is what I've been trying to say for months!

What does everyone else think about this idea? Reducing hitstun, but increasing the speed at which characters reach the apex of their jumps (but not fall speeds), and adding IASA frames where necessary to preserve staple combos. This would be an overall boost to the difficulty/skill level and speed of Brawl+.
 

PikaPika!

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When I said it felt like playing melee pikachu it was because I basically did the same **** I did in melee for 4 years and it worked as well if not better in B+
 

Dan_X

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I guess he meant it as a compliment as he could play Pikachu like Melee Pikachu but reap more optimal rewards.
I think he was more surprised that anything he thought of and tried work near effortlessly. I mean, obviously not effortlessly as PikaPika is clearly skilled, but he was surprised it was as easy as it was.

I mained Sheikachu. I'm terrible at melee now though. B+ Pikachu is too good and B+ is too easy to play.
Speak of the devil. haha. Dude, I couldn't believe it was your first time playing B+ by the way you utterly stomped my poor innocent Falco. I felt bad for myself.. I was thinking "Wow... I've been playing B+ since... since the beginning, have I no skill to show for it?" haha. Anyway, impressive gameplay on your behalf.

You should have entered the B+ tourney btw, that would have been interesting! :D

When I said it felt like playing melee pikachu it was because I basically did the same **** I did in melee for 4 years and it worked as well if not better in B+
Yeah, that's how I interpreted what you said. Sorry if my quoting you didn't sound as accurate as real life. haha.
 

GuruKid

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Plum's and Jcaesar's proposals look very interesting. I would actually love to see that in action; might be just the thing needed for the project.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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Thank you! This is what I've been trying to say for months!

What does everyone else think about this idea? Reducing hitstun, but increasing the speed at which characters reach the apex of their jumps (but not fall speeds), and adding IASA frames where necessary to preserve staple combos. This would be an overall boost to the difficulty/skill level and speed of Brawl+.
We've been on the same page for a good while now :V

+1 for a more difficult B+ (more hitlag, less hitstun) that retains all those tasty Bread and Butter combos (quicker jump apex, IASA frames on select moves).
 

JCaesar

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Speak of the devil. haha. Dude, I couldn't believe it was your first time playing B+ by the way you utterly stomped my poor innocent Falco. I felt bad for myself.. I was thinking "Wow... I've been playing B+ since... since the beginning, have I no skill to show for it?" haha. Anyway, impressive gameplay on your behalf.
You gotta remember, smash skill carries over a LOT. It's not that uncommon for a really good smasher come to Brawl+ for the first time and say, "Man, this is so easy!" while they **** someone who's been playing for months. Do you think that would happen if they had never played a smash game before? No, of course not. They are good at it because it feels like other smash games and just feels natural to them. It seems to be a turnoff for some people that there isn't much of a "separate" learning curve for Brawl+, if you know what I mean.

That's not to say it isn't too easy of a game in itself at the moment. But we seem to be moving in the right direction on that subject.

Let's all wait and see where things are going after the next big release.
 

Wavedash Master

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322
We've been on the same page for a good while now :V

+1 for a more difficult B+ (more hitlag, less hitstun) that retains all those tasty Bread and Butter combos (quicker jump apex, IASA frames on select moves).
Why more hitlag? I realize that making more hitlag will make for easier DI and therefore making a harder time to combo but hitlag has already been increased recently and it's really the hitlag of jabs that need to be tinkered with (if I remember correctly, jabs were only allowing 1 frame of hitlag). Any move besides jabs I feel have just the right amount to not be too easy like vBrawl's but not too low that the window is too tight.

If this is not the case, please elaborate.
 

Mattnumbers

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Why more hitlag? I realize that making more hitlag will make for easier DI and therefore making a harder time to combo but hitlag has already been increased recently and it's really the hitlag of jabs that need to be tinkered with (if I remember correctly, jabs were only allowing 1 frame of hitlag). Any move besides jabs I feel have just the right amount to not be too easy like vBrawl's but not too low that the window is too tight.

If this is not the case, please elaborate.
Some multihit moves are currently nigh impossible to SDI because of their lack of hitlag.
 

Dan_X

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You gotta remember, smash skill carries over a LOT. It's not that uncommon for a really good smasher come to Brawl+ for the first time and say, "Man, this is so easy!" while they **** someone who's been playing for months. Do you think that would happen if they had never played a smash game before? No, of course not. They are good at it because it feels like other smash games and just feels natural to them. It seems to be a turnoff for some people that there isn't much of a "separate" learning curve for Brawl+, if you know what I mean.

That's not to say it isn't too easy of a game in itself at the moment. But we seem to be moving in the right direction on that subject.

Let's all wait and see where things are going after the next big release.
oh, don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you mean. It's obvious that an experinced player will do well with the transition; i.e. Ally. The thing is, I hadn't heard of PikaPika before, I didn't know he'd be as good as he was. Obviously a person with little to no smash experince wouldn't be that good.

My only point is, I'm not a bad player, granted I don't have a TON of tournament experience. You'd think that since someone has played B+ for a long time they'd have something of an edge (even a slight one) over a skilled player who hasn't played B+ before.

I mean, I'm really not bad at B+. Guru is a well known, and rather skilled B+ player-- not to mention that he came in 2nd at SNES. We played a decent string of friendlies where the winner of the match was back and forth. I'm not saying I'm amazing, simply that I can hold my own.
 

Mattnumbers

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Why not just up the SDI modifier then? It's easy to do in PSA.
Because that doesn't increase the amount of frames where you can SDI. It's not a matter of not being able to SDI by the move sucking you in, its a matter of only having a single frame in which its even possible to SDI it.
 

Plum

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Why not just up the SDI modifier then? It's easy to do in PSA.
I'm fairly certain that just effects how potent SDI is on the move when it actually is inputted, not the actual ability to SDI.

In the current hitlag, there are multihit moves such as Fox's Dair that gives you only 1 frame per cycle to actually input any SDI. Compare that to a higher setting such as 70-80% hitlag where you would have 2-3 frames per cycle to SDI. That's what Matt meant when he said there are moves that are nigh impossible to SDI, the amount of time you are given to SDI (1 frame on a plethora of moves) makes things unnecessarily difficult.

We can all agree that vBrawl had far too much hitlag, as seen by how you virtually froze in place with multihit moves and strong moves like Zelda and Falcon's sweetspots. Before it was at 50%, and now we have been lucky enough to have been playing with 60%. It gives you a very small time frame to SDI and DI from moves, which is another factor to the ease of combos. I don't want to use the "more like Melee" phrase here, but it is one of those things where Melee got it right. A window of hitlag not too large (vBrawl where you would have upwards of 5 frames) and not too small (Brawl+ where you have 1 frame).

EDIT:
I was too lazy to refresh the page... Matt beat me to the main point... :p
 

kupo15

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again you missed the entire point... ganon loses ZERO combos... what he DOES get is a reduced da,age output to the 3 or 4 moves he MUST use again and again... i don't know why you seem to be oblivious to this, but look at the big picture, i guarantee a character like ganondorf is't as capable of compensating for it as someone like, say metaknight, it means, that virtually EVERY SINGLE Viable ganon move will be stale at all times...
Oh ok, so you recognize that he won't lose combos, but you are saying he won't be able to kill? I highly doubt that. He has had many buffs, the ledge game should be getting improved so the toe will be much more effective. If you really feel he won't be able to kill, them give him some more knockback on some moves. Moves in general don't get strong enough fast enough anyway.
What does everyone else think about this idea? Reducing hitstun, but increasing the speed at which characters reach the apex of their jumps (but not fall speeds), and adding IASA frames where necessary to preserve staple combos. This would be an overall boost to the difficulty/skill level and speed of Brawl+.
You should also up your jump start animation as well. I think you are at 1.3x but maybe try 1.34. That should really help the sluggishness of jumps as well in addition to higher ugrav + jump power.
 

CountKaiser

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Well, the jump start frames number is in each character's PSA file. It's 0x030, and most character's are set to 5 frames. This divided by 1.3 is 3.8 something, which I believe is set to 4 or 3.

You could set it to the exact frame you'd want for each character except for DDD and the Pokes.
 

Magus420

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Code:
[FONT="Lucida Console"]*****************
Jump Startup Lag
*****************
--------------------------------
Character       New     Default
--------------------------------
Diddy Kong      4       4
Fox             4       4
Kirby           4       4
Metaknight      4       4
Pikachu         4       4
Samus           4       4
Sheik           4       4
Zero Suit Samus 4       4
Ice Climbers    4       4
Squirtle        4       4
Captain Falcon  4       5
Game & Watch    4       5
Ivysaur         4       5
Lucario         4       5
Lucas           4       5
Luigi           4       5
Mario           4       5
Marth           4       5
Ness            4       5
Olimar          4       5
Peach           4       5
Pit             4       5
R.O.B           4       5
Sonic           4       5
Toon Link       4       5
Wolf            4       5

Charizard       5       6
Donkey Kong     5       6
Falco           5       6
Ike             5       6
Jigglypuff      5       6
King Dedede     5       6
Wario           5       6
Yoshi           5       6
Zelda           5       6

Ganondorf       6       7
Link            6       7

Bowser          7       8
Snake           7       9[/FONT]
Going higher than 1.300x so the 4s become 3s is probably a bad idea due to the dead frame on jumps.

The value in their .pac at 0x030 also acts as the dash attack cancel window. Speeding up the jump start animation shortens jump startup time while also preserving DA cancels.
 

Dantarion

Smash Champion
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I am going to release OpenSA as soon as it can edit attributes better than the current version of PSA. THEN you will be able to tweak pokemon and DDD attributes.
 

KOkingpin

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A lot of staple combos probably would be preserved in lower hitstun if everybody just reached the apex of their jumps those few frames earlier that would be lost from a lower hitstun constant. A key example of something being lost but easily retained through hitting their peak jump height earlier would be DK's Cargo Toss > Uair. Staple Bum combo right there, and a key example of something that works with the hitstun right now, but any lower it would be lost. If DK reaches his max height a few frames earlier, tada!

My guess is that most combos would be preserved in such a matter, and we have every ability to keep them regardless. IASA or simply less endlag on the select moves would then be done if simply faster jump speeds (read, NOT fall speeds :V) alone do not preserve those bread and butter combos certain characters cannot afford to loose.

Once the next Nightly is released I would love to see a test set for these kind of changes. Kupo has done one thing right (I'm not saying its the only thing, its just the one thing I'm pointing out ._.) and that is get all of us focused on the game's physics. These arguments now are crucial, and for all we know characters will magically fall into place once they are set. One can dream...
Great, great, great idea. the amount of hitstun is quite high. I never really realized it till i went back and played tons of melee. It really hurts recoveries. As for the faster jumps i think thats an amazing idea as well. It would really make for a much faster paced game.
 

GHNeko

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If I recall correctly, a instance during your jump where you cannot do anything (this includes aerial attacks and air dodges).
This includes buffer.

You cant buffer anything during the dead frame, so with 3 frame jumps, you'd always have 1 frame dead, even if you have 10 frame buffer. :V

We've been trying to figure out how to remove said dead frame because as it is now, you have a 25% chance of hitting it (assuming jumps are 4 frame)

Bringing them down to 3 frame increases that change to 33.3% and hitting a dead frame causes an empty jump or a late attack that can either hit with the wrong part of the hitbox, screw up your timing, or just not have any attack come out at all. Most of those scenarios, bad for you and get you punished.
 

Yanoss1313

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This includes buffer.

You cant buffer anything during the dead frame, so with 3 frame jumps, you'd always have 1 frame dead, even if you have 10 frame buffer. :V

We've been trying to figure out how to remove said dead frame because as it is now, you have a 25% chance of hitting it (assuming jumps are 4 frame)

Bringing them down to 3 frame increases that change to 33.3% and hitting a dead frame causes an empty jump or a late attack that can either hit with the wrong part of the hitbox, screw up your timing, or just not have any attack come out at all. Most of those scenarios, bad for you and get you punished.
oh, that explains a few things, i always thought i was just messing up my buffer
 

Dantarion

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Nice!

What all do you have left, anyways? Seems like you've made a lot of progress.
I can view EVERYTHING PSA can, but some stuff isn't formatted the best.
If you come to #SA, I am just going to post the working version every day and take in input until I finish it.
I'm sure some people have some good ideas.

The side project to the actual program OpenSA is the wiki that I'm working on at
http://opensa.dantarion.com/wiki/

I want to fully document all of the .pac file structure, and all of the event commands.
Then I want to see if we can get a translated version of OpenSA availible to japan :D

P.S. I think I can now put C#/WPF on my resume and feel 100% confident about coding in it :D
 
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