Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Wander]

They seem to be trying to nerf Marth's very soul right out of him even though he was only about on the level that Samus was in Melee compared to Meta and Snake. I wouldn't expect much buffing for him any time soon, though being a Marth main myself, I certainly hope for it.

 

[MK26]

I greatly disagree with making Power-Shielding reflect projectiles. Where's the value in having a reflector special if EVERY character can reflect projectiles with 2 minutes of practice?

Q4thismanbringsupa****goodpoint
EDIT: that word is censored? well...

Spoiler

inthebible,a****eedssomeclothes

Well _Clinton kinda takes the rest of the Ness mains' reputations and burns them, pours their ashes onto a frozen lake, and then plays ice hockey on said lake.

WHAT THE $#&^ DO YOU HAVE AGAINST ICE HOCKEY?!??!?!?!?!?

I am now on the Hot Tamale Train of MOAR HEART EFFECTS PEOPLE.


... I just thought of something. What if BOOZER'S downthrow had a heart effect? XDXDXDXDXD

v_v stole my idea

Kirby's inhale with heart effects = win to the nth degree

 

[cAm8ooo]

Kirby's inhale with heart effects = win to the nth degree

Quoted 4 epicness.

 

[jalued]

I greatly disagree with making Power-Shielding reflect projectiles. Where's the value in having a reflector special if EVERY character can reflect projectiles with 2 minutes of practice?

but surely if u can set it to only power-shield within say 1-2 frames, then it will all be skill

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I greatly disagree with making Power-Shielding reflect projectiles. Where's the value in having a reflector special if EVERY character can reflect projectiles with 2 minutes of practice?

So does this mean that you can power shield perfectly every single time? So if a Falco spams lasers at you, you'll be able to power shield every single one of them? I highly doubt you're even close to anything close to that (hope that makes sense to you). You're just making it sound like power shielding is one of the easiest things in the world. It's easier in Brawl than it is in Melee, but not to that extent. Even if power shielding in Brawl+ reflects stuff, stuff like the reflector is still better for such purposes (especially in Brawl for some characters, since you have out-of-shield options in Brawl when you reflect/absorb stuff), so characters with such specials still have the advantage in this department. Making power shielding reflect stuff actually gives a reason for people to attempt to purposely power shield projectiles, since it actually gives a decent enough reward for taking the risk of timing it wrong and getting hit.
I fully support making power shield reflect projectiles.

but surely if u can set it to only power-shield within say 1-2 frames, then it will all be skill

I'm pretty sure it's already like that in Brawl+...


And geez, so many ideas for heart-effect attacks...some a little too weird for me. I wouldn't mind all of Peach's throws with the heart-effect, though.

 

[[TSON]]

there have been ideas to make the stage less... homo... but none of them could eliminate circling.

for example, my idea: Freeze the stage, make the ledge s grabable, remove slippery surfaces, make platform on left always up/down (one or the other), no icicle on the bottom, and the breakable platform on the right unhittable/gone (one or the other).

despite all of those edits, you can still just circle camp the stage, which is why its considered a lost cause.

Is there any way you could remove the hitbox on the stage, and turn the water into ice? D:

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Is there any way you could remove the hitbox on the stage, and turn the water into ice? D:

you just made me lol.



no, no ice can be made.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

In the end, Falco is really fun to play, and feels perfect. I don't find it necessary to tweak / change him in any way at all. More on his Utilt... it's fast, sure. However, it's entirely DIable. You shouldn't be hit by more than 2 Utilts if you DI correctly. Almost all of the depth found in Falco's combo game lies within his current Utilt. It's fine.

I honestly find that's what makes him more boring than before. If you just want to make his utilt combo better, you don't to give it that much speed to the insane utilt standards of those other characters. Currently, the advantage you get off his utilt, for the low KBG it has, is enormous is is an extremely broad damage range combo move and is too easy to combo out of until death. -Even before the speedup, a follow up was guaranteed from anywhere past 40-50 until you finally kill them. I'd rather work with the dtilt instead.

 

[Demacrez]

I say give Snake's beatings during grab have heart effects. :3
<3 <3 <3

 

[FrozenHobo]

Is there any way you could remove the hitbox on the stage, and turn the water into ice? D:

no. my idea being that the summit would never break off. changing he water at (impossible) would be moot.

 

[Explodo]

How come Jiggly's rest has a dark effect? Unless I'm seeing things. O.o

 

[Alphatron]

Not seeing that big of an affect from the zap jump. It's simply using the bair or fair when doing the double jump, right.

 

[grim mouser]

How come Jiggly's rest has a dark effect? Unless I'm seeing things. O.o

It was changed from fire to dark. Either for the Pokemon or for cool.

 

[Revven]

For both actually.

 

[leafgreen386]

Power shielding wouldn't replace perfect shielding, right?

You do realize that they're the same thing, right? Just that the smash community named it powershielding in melee and sakurai named it perfect shielding in brawl. The term wouldn't even still exist if it used a different abbreviation than "PS."

And would more heart effects even be possible? o_O I thought they were just attack animations, not their own element...

You're correct. It's an animation, not an effect. Everyone needs to shut up before I start kicking people on the irc... more than I already do.

And the shield takes enough damage. Making it grow back slower on indiviual characters could work. Same for some having their shield come back faster. But this shouldn't be a priority.

This goes to everyone... SHIELDS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME IN BRAWL AS THEY ARE IN MELEE. THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT IS HOW LONG THEY TAKE TO PUT DOWN AND THE POWERSHIELD MECHANICS.

Finally, even though we're a bit past stages at this point, would it be possible to freeze summit and remove the ice effect that the ground has? Solely hypothetical, not saying that this alone would make the stage viable or should be done

As has been said... it would be pointless. Of course it's theoretically possible, but we can't modify things like this right now.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

"WHAT THE $#&^ DO YOU HAVE AGAINST ICE HOCKEY?!??!?!?!?!?"

Nothing, I have something against _Clinton.



And about the heart animations...aww I thought they were effects. D:

 

[Alphatron]

leaf, I was referring to Shell's post about what reflecting projectiles with power shielding would do. As in significant shield dmg and such. Unless that stuff would only happen when a projectile is power shielded of course.

And I understand on Summit. I simply wanted to know what was possible for it.

If anything, Peach should have more darkness effects. Shadow Queen for brawl+!

 

[Dan_X]

But it's fun and easy

I'd be fine with Falco keeping all his buffed combo moves if we got rid of SHDL. I'd even gladly let him have DIable + fastfall lasers (Melee style basically) if he could only shoot one per short hop. It's not even a big nerf and it doesn't hurt his approach game AT ALL, it only makes him a less homo camper against tall characters.

My God. I hate when one thing leads to another, just by mentioning a character, and suddenly we have an idea as extreme as this.

JCaesar, don't get me wrong, but this is a terrible idea. Taking away Falco's SHDL would completely change Falco. In addition, it would hurt his approach game, I don't see how you could possible say it wouldn't. Just because something is "annoying" doesn't mean we should remove it. I'm sure many of you who agreed to this idea all have on thing in common, you hate dealing with a Falco and his lasers. That's what makes him Falco in Brawl+, that's his signature style. To remove that is to remove the essence of the character I love so much. I don't want a "Melee Style" Falco, I want a Brawl style Falco. To remove SHDL is to remove a technique from Falco, and a very important one. Not only is it his counter to larger characters, but it is important in every matchup. His higher laser helps in the event that the enemy tries to avoid the lower one by jumping. Simply put, it's a very important pressuring tool. It's also a useful edgeguard. SHDL isn't the best option at all times as in certain matchups SHLs are better-- namely for extremely short characters. In general, SHL lasers are great for other things, like firing off a retreating laser on an approaching enemy creativing an opening for yourself. To remove SHDL is actually removing a ton of depth from Falco, which would be an utter travesty.

I'm truly sorry that Falco shuts down bigger characters, but that's where counter picked levels and maining secondaries comes into play. Plenty of characters have it made in the shade versus bigger characters as it is, Falco isn't much different. His laser has already been nerfed as it is...

Falco is not #1 in Brawl, nor will he be #1 in Brawl+ with his SHDL, and yet some of you would like to nerf him on the basis of "homo camping?" It's not a matter of camping. I don't camp unless I need to. I'm aggressive with Falco, using retreating and advancing SHDLs and SHLs. The only time I outright CAMP is when I face Peach, and that's because she wrecks him otherwise... play to win, right? Plenty of characters have specific counters to the lasers. Kirby can use Falco's lasers against him, most characters can crawl avoiding most of, if not all of his laser spam. Bowser can now crawl through laser spam. Fox and Wolf have reflectors. Ness and Lucas can absorb it. Pit can deflect it with both side+B and down+B. Zelda can reflect it with neutral B. Plenty of characters have some means to handle the laser spam to a degree.

I for one have mained Falco since Brawl. Taking away the SHDL would take so much of what I like about Falco away from him--- which is saddening because it's taking away a unique aspect of the game. Though other characters also have unique projectiles, he's the only one who's metagame has created ATs such as SHDL; i.e. he plays far differently than other projectile characters. Removing his SHDL would make him more bland, more like the other projectile based classes like Pit. It simply ruins the diversity of the game. If a change like this happens, then I have officially lost all faith in Brawl+.

 

[FrozenHobo]

My God. I hate when one thing leads to another, just by mentioning a character, and suddenly we have an idea as extreme as this.

JCaesar, don't get me wrong, but this is a terrible idea. Taking away Falco's SHDL would completely change Falco. In addition, it would hurt his approach game, I don't see how you could possible say it wouldn't. Just because something is "annoying" doesn't mean we should remove it. I'm sure many of you who agreed to this idea all have on thing in common, you hate dealing with a Falco and his lasers. That's what makes him Falco in Brawl+, that's his signature style. To remove that is to remove the essence of the character I love so much. I don't want a "Melee Style" Falco, I want a Brawl style Falco. To remove SHDL is to remove a technique from Falco, and a very important one. Not only is it his counter to larger characters, but it is important in every matchup. His higher laser helps in the event that the enemy tries to avoid the lower one by jumping. Simply put, it's a very important pressuring tool. It's also a useful edgeguard. SHDL isn't the best option at all times as in certain matchups SHLs are better-- namely for extremely short characters. In general, SHL lasers are great for other things, like firing off a retreating laser on an approaching enemy creativing an opening for yourself. To remove SHDL is actually removing a ton of depth from Falco, which would be an utter travesty.

I'm truly sorry that Falco shuts down bigger characters, but that's where counter picked levels and maining secondaries comes into play. Plenty of characters have it made in the shade versus bigger characters as it is, Falco isn't much different. His laser has already been nerfed as it is...

Falco is not #1 in Brawl, nor will he be #1 in Brawl+ with his SHDL, and yet some of you would like to nerf him on the basis of "homo camping?" It's not a matter of camping. I don't camp unless I need to. I'm aggressive with Falco, using retreating and advancing SHDLs and SHLs. The only time I outright CAMP is when I face Peach, and that's because she wrecks him otherwise... play to win, right? Plenty of characters have specific counters to the lasers. Kirby can use Falco's lasers against him, most characters can crawl avoiding most of, if not all of his laser spam. Bowser can now crawl through laser spam. Fox and Wolf have reflectors. Ness and Lucas can absorb it. Pit can deflect it with both side+B and down+B. Zelda can reflect it with neutral B. Plenty of characters have some means to handle the laser spam to a degree.

I for one have mained Falco since Brawl. Taking away the SHDL would take so much of what I like about Falco away from him--- which is saddening because it's taking away a unique aspect of the game. Though other characters also have unique projectiles, he's the only one who's metagame has created ATs such as SHDL; i.e. he plays far differently than other projectile characters. Removing his SHDL would make him more bland, more like the other projectile based classes like Pit. It simply ruins the diversity of the game. If a change like this happens, then I have officially lost all faith in Brawl+.

it takes away a single laser. how the **** is that game breaking?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

it takes away a single laser. how the **** is that game breaking?

it is a fast and efficient way of shutting down the opponent's options. Talk to any Falco main in Brawl.

 

[FrozenHobo]

you can do the same thing with a single laser in your sh. the lasers have enough stun now that one shot instead of two isn't going to make that big of a difference.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

idk. As a previous Falco main in Brawl, I will say that two is much, much better and useful than one.
Take my word for it, taking away his 2nd laser makes him lose his advantage as a projectile spammer.

But you can look at it your way too, i suppose.

 

[Swordplay]

A few months ago, I remember TESTING a build where SHDL was taken out.

It ruined Falco.

I don't know, you can't really fix Falco without ruining him. He combos so well and you want to keep that. What you don't want to keep is his laser spam and run game. But if you try to touch that, you kill the character.


I don't know, never liked falco. Best spam in the game, combos better than most people, and has a recovery that is still better than characters who's recovery is thier inherent weakness. Average recovery......really nothing special but not horrible. I guess I can't really point out a solid weakness on him but whatever, thats not my problem. Its probably why I play falco. Falco is VERY Polarized.



Its sad that big characters in general can't stand up to spam and spacers very well. But that's just their weakness. They do have strengths though. And advantageous matchups too. Many large characters are excell in something where smalls/mediums are just overall more average characters as their size isn't a disadvantage.

My experience with bigs can be summed up as such.

To avoid combo's DI HARDER
You survive better BETTER
Stocks will go FASTER
You'll hit STRONGER

 

[GHNeko]

you can do the same thing with a single laser in your sh. the lasers have enough stun now that one shot instead of two isn't going to make that big of a difference.

You're still changing the staple tactic of a character that has been played like that since the release of Brawl. <_>

 

[FrozenHobo]

You're still changing the staple tactic of a character that has been played like that since the release of Brawl. <_>

see: ICs

>_>

don't talk to me about changing staple tactics.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

well yea, but the IC's infininte was too broken.

 

[Shell]

A few months ago, I remember TESTING a build where SHDL was taken out.

It ruined Falco.

I don't know, you can't really fix Falco without ruining him. He combos so well and you want to keep that. What you don't want to keep is his laser spam and run game. But if you try to touch that, you kill the character.


I don't know, never liked falco. Best spam in the game, combos better than most people, and has a recovery that is still better than characters who's recovery is thier inherent weakness. Average recovery......really nothing special but not horrible. I guess I can't really point out a solid weakness on him but whatever, thats not my problem. Its probably why I play falco. Falco is VERY Polarized.



Its sad that big characters in general can't stand up to spam and spacers very well. But that's just their weakness. They do have strengths though. And advantageous matchups too. Many large characters are excell in something where smalls/mediums are just overall more average characters as their size isn't a disadvantage.

My experience with bigs can be summed up as such.

To avoid combo's DI HARDER
You survive better BETTER
Stocks will go FASTER
You'll hit STRONGER

You can't really judge anything from that experimental build a while back because the landing lag from FFing the single laser was still at it's full vanilla value. Of course this would ruin Falco. Additionally, I'm not even sure that we had FF specials on then. If we did implement something like this again, we would do it right -- but we're not going to shove anything down anyone's throats if they don't like it.

Regardless, it is my opinion that we should implement PS reflect first, and then if anything is still a little too spammable, address that individually afterward.

Edit: Orca, I think that Melee lasers were just as good, possibly better at approaching (They seemed to have a bit more hitlag or something, but I admit I could be making things up). You also bring up the "argument" of uniqueness -- I think a SHFF'd projectile is still completely different than most projectiles in the game. Overall I think it'd be more different than necessarily a nerf. I understand that changing things for the sake of changing things, especially when considering the Melee-stigma, is usually to be avoided. However, this is immensely far from being coded let alone even tested. Please try not to over-react to these discussions of fleeting possibilities.

 

[FrozenHobo]

but we're not going to shove anything down anyone's throats if they don't like it.

*cough*

now, do you mean not anymore?

 

[GHNeko]

see: ICs

>_>

don't talk to me about changing staple tactics.

IC inifinites are on a different level than SHDL and you know that. They're more game-breaking than SHDL.

.__.

That's like comparing D3 Infinite to Falco CG.

Yea. They're both staple tactics, but which one is on a high level of game breaking?

 

[FrozenHobo]

i just find it a little unfair that falco can combo the hell out of pretty much any heavy character and all i'm left with is a defective AI that can't tell the difference between me and an opponent charging their fsmash. just a little unbalanced if you ask me....

 

[GHNeko]

i just find it a little unfair that falco can combo the hell out of pretty much any heavy character and all i'm left with is a defective AI that can't tell the difference between me and an opponent charging their fsmash. just a little unbalanced if you ask me....

We dont have the ability to work the AI. If we did, we probably would of made Nana's AI level 9 a while ago. <_>

 

[FrozenHobo]

thats the point, you can't edit AI. so you give us a couple buffs, promise to fix a few graphical errors here and there, and then leave us with a stupid as **** computer who gets herself killed half the time. the problem being that she will die (either by her own hand or the opponents (either way he has no ****ing concept of the difference between getting hit and standing still) you leave us with one climber whos only purpose is to build damage before he dies. now, wouldn't it make sense for nana to be able to DO something on the field aside from assisting in combos? if she's going to die at least make her a realistic threat while alive.



and for the record, even in vBrawl i didn't use CGs. thats use. not 'utilize' or 'rarely do them'. i never cgd. i play B+ ICs the same way i play my vBrawl ICs and all i can notice is a ****ty AI and no sense of terror in my opponent. whats the point of having two characters in one when you can't use them to their fullest?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

We dont have the ability to work the AI. If we did, we probably would of made Nana's AI level 9 a while ago. <_>

Yeah, unfortunately, Nana is a *****. Shekills herself all the time, lol

 

[Shell]

We haven't gotten any balance complaints about ICs recently. If you truly believe they need to be looked at, and aren't just complaining because we removed a mechanic most players agreed should go, please give us concise, specific suggestions and we'll look into them.

I will say that I think I'll look into using the throw mod to remove / reduce Falco's chaingrab on heavies after my final. He's got more than enough going for him in those matchups without a free / easy 50%, in my opinion. He would be compensated in a more general, non heavy-killing way, of course.

 

[GHNeko]

Nana should regenerate 1% per second that passes by and never go into special fall.

 

[Roxas215]

My God. I hate when one thing leads to another, just by mentioning a character, and suddenly we have an idea as extreme as this.

JCaesar, don't get me wrong, but this is a terrible idea. Taking away Falco's SHDL would completely change Falco. In addition, it would hurt his approach game, I don't see how you could possible say it wouldn't. Just because something is "annoying" doesn't mean we should remove it. I'm sure many of you who agreed to this idea all have on thing in common, you hate dealing with a Falco and his lasers. That's what makes him Falco in Brawl+, that's his signature style. To remove that is to remove the essence of the character I love so much. I don't want a "Melee Style" Falco, I want a Brawl style Falco. To remove SHDL is to remove a technique from Falco, and a very important one. Not only is it his counter to larger characters, but it is important in every matchup. His higher laser helps in the event that the enemy tries to avoid the lower one by jumping. Simply put, it's a very important pressuring tool. It's also a useful edgeguard. SHDL isn't the best option at all times as in certain matchups SHLs are better-- namely for extremely short characters. In general, SHL lasers are great for other things, like firing off a retreating laser on an approaching enemy creativing an opening for yourself. To remove SHDL is actually removing a ton of depth from Falco, which would be an utter travesty.

I'm truly sorry that Falco shuts down bigger characters, but that's where counter picked levels and maining secondaries comes into play. Plenty of characters have it made in the shade versus bigger characters as it is, Falco isn't much different. His laser has already been nerfed as it is...

Falco is not #1 in Brawl, nor will he be #1 in Brawl+ with his SHDL, and yet some of you would like to nerf him on the basis of "homo camping?" It's not a matter of camping. I don't camp unless I need to. I'm aggressive with Falco, using retreating and advancing SHDLs and SHLs. The only time I outright CAMP is when I face Peach, and that's because she wrecks him otherwise... play to win, right? Plenty of characters have specific counters to the lasers. Kirby can use Falco's lasers against him, most characters can crawl avoiding most of, if not all of his laser spam. Bowser can now crawl through laser spam. Fox and Wolf have reflectors. Ness and Lucas can absorb it. Pit can deflect it with both side+B and down+B. Zelda can reflect it with neutral B. Plenty of characters have some means to handle the laser spam to a degree.

I for one have mained Falco since Brawl. Taking away the SHDL would take so much of what I like about Falco away from him--- which is saddening because it's taking away a unique aspect of the game. Though other characters also have unique projectiles, he's the only one who's metagame has created ATs such as SHDL; i.e. he plays far differently than other projectile characters. Removing his SHDL would make him more bland, more like the other projectile based classes like Pit. It simply ruins the diversity of the game. If a change like this happens, then I have officially lost all faith in Brawl+.

Can u tell me why falco deserves shdl and ivy dont?? Considering the fact that falco's travel longer and hits harder and also can't be broken up??

 

[FrozenHobo]

Nana should regenerate 1% per second that passes by and never go into special fall.

i like that idea (to a point), though i would prefer a more reliable resync method and full application of B+ to her (DD not included) as she is currently not entirely effected by the codes the same way popo is.

if it is possible to make her not drift away from popo while in the air in addition to having her not randomly desync in the air (ie an aerial attack resync -> failed belay/squall)



additionally, my comment on SA frames to belay's tether.

 

[GHNeko]

Can u tell me why falco deserves shdl and ivy dont?? Considering the fact that falco's travel longer and hits harder and also can't be broken up??

Because Falco had it from the start of Brawl and Ivy never did? Because it's a Falco staple tactic, and it's not a staple tactic for Ivy? Because we had to "give" Ivy a SH Double Leef and we never had to give it to Falco because it's what he was created with? Because SH Double green pyew shifted Ivy's metagame and Falco's never was shifted? Because it was made Falco...Falco and SH double green sharp thingys didnt define Ivy?

It's like saying why does this guy's house deserve a pool when your's doesnt when you only had a pool for like a week, and the guy's house came with the pool.

 

[Roxas215]

Because Falco had it from the start of Brawl and Ivy never did? Because it's a Falco staple tactic, and it's not a staple tactic for Ivy? Because we had to "give" Ivy a SH Double Leef and we never had to give it to Falco because it's what he was created with? Because SH Double green pyew shifted Ivy's metagame and Falco's never was shifted? Because it was made Falco...Falco and SH double green sharp thingys didnt define Ivy?

It's like saying why does this guy's house deserve a pool when your's doesnt when you only had a pool for like a week, and the guy's house came with the pool.

Cg's are a staple tactic for ic's-took them out
Nado was a staple tactic for mk-nerfed it


Lucario never had attacking out of up b -Added it and shifted lucario's metagame
Bowser never had sa on crawl or killing throws-Added it and shifted bowser's metagame
Zelda never could move while doing din's-Added it and shifted Zelda's metagame
I wont even talk about ness.


The fact is the wbr added it and then took it out because they didn't want to deal with the complaints. Don't make up excuses like they only pertain to ivy.

 

[goodoldganon]

Getting owned Neko

P.S. Zelda could always move during Din's Fire, it just put her in fall special. Otherwise, good points. I find the new Ivysaur a lot more fun and overall better then the Double Razor Leaf one though.