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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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_clinton

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Shanus, what momentum boost does the magnet give? Please elaborate, because I don't think you mean the wind pushback it has now.
It gives a small push either forwards or backwards with Ness facing any way you want if you know how to use it right...Try setting specials to the C-stick and then after using PK Fire for the Zap Jump...press C-down to see it...If you switch the control pad to the direction you came from...Ness will move back to the spot he came from...

The boost is no where near the boost Lucas gets...

Also Shanus...if the Zap jump sucking comment was for me...I never said the move sucks...I just said that Ness flies too far IMO

He flies past the Bolt's landing point if you want to use it for offense, and he flies to far if you want to use it for defensive spacing...

The distance you gain isn't even worth it IMO...because a rising Fair covers the same distance pretty much...
 

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
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Clinton, he probably meant the zap fair jump, not the zap pk fire jump.

Also, I tried that "crazy momentum boost" Shanus was talking about.

It isn't that good. It's not bad, though.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
Lucario's upb is fine now. He isn't Snake and can't hurt himself to UpB again. If he fails to recover with this, what's he gonna do? It's not like extreme speed actually does damage now.
 

goodoldganon

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Not for any good reason I was told.

Leaf's stance on Lucario's upB

[09:54:48] Jiangjunizzy: i dont see how that change was necessary
[09:55:11] leafgreen386 (LF386): well of course it wasn't
[09:55:25] leafgreen386 (LF386): does that mean we shouldn't include it?
[09:56:19] leafgreen386 (LF386): seriously, there are some things that are too awesome to not keep
[09:57:14] leafgreen386 (LF386): luc is still easily edgeguardable

Here is leaf's stance on Lucario's dair:

[22:33:55] leafgreen386 (LF386): lucario dair was to make the two hits always connect
[22:34:14] leafgreen386 (LF386): because if you hit with the first one and not the second, they got very little kb
[22:37:51] leafgreen386 (LF386): marth can benefit from NOT tipping a move
[22:38:02] leafgreen386 (LF386): lucario doesn't really benefit from not hitting with the second hit
[22:39:15] leafgreen386 (LF386): we're trying to streamline characters even if they don't necessarily NEED the changes

The same logic was used for Falco's faster uptilt; he didn't necessarily need it, but it was sped up anyway.
First, Falco's u-tilt was added not because we wanted to or it was cool. It was done because Falco needed a way to get people into the air. Despite what many people think, the lasers aren't a be all end all tactic that shuts people down. You can make that argument for heavies, but that is another ball park. Point is Falco had no reliable way to get people into the air besides D-air, so u-tilt was seen fit as the move to buff.

See how this is different then giving Lucario's d-air the ability to always connect? All it does is fix a move people thought was wrong. The move still served a purpose. It can be used to stall not only while recovering but also while guarding the edge. It's ability to stop momentum isn't ground breaking, but it certainly is something. It's also not like you never saw D-air hit both times.

Sure it wasn't that reliable to hit both times, but it didn't need to be since Lucario was fine before hand. Is it breaking him? No, but it certainly makes playing as him feel easier. Lucario can stall 'all day' (figure of speech) by the edge and know that he'll always get that powerful second hit to seal the deal. The recovering person can mix things up, but only so much he's on a time limit. I used to get hit by it now and again because it was a reliable surprise attack. Now it's a much more reliable gimp and it's also pretty stupid good at preventing him from being edgeguarded if he recover high.

I also still laugh when people say Lucario's no free fall should stay because it's 'cool'. According to who? His mains? Randoms? I call bull ****. I want Ganondorf to have his sword moveset. It would probably be better then he currently is and I think it's cool. Point is, it's a needless change, but it's too late now since it's pretty much here forever. It's been around too long.

I'm ranting about nothing and I know the WBR knows I've hated Lucario for a long time so it might be bias so really so my main point is:

I HATE all these move fixes. Many of them are garbage. Brawl+ is easy to play and I'm fine with that to an extent, but when it means I don't even have to space my multihit moves as well anymore and many of main combo moves and throws are getting better at comboing I start to get a little downhearted and sad. I just feel the game is getting stupidly easy. Combos feel too free now a days since a lot of angles and throws work 'too' well, all of my attacks do what I want them to do (which yes is a bad thing) and then only thing stopping me from 0 to deathing people is a stupid good airdodge.

Basically matches go like this:

space space space, hit with the setup, insert combo with a little DI reading, enemy air dodges, start over.

I don't want melee air dodge
I don't want L-cancelling
I don't want wavedashing

I want Brawl+. I used to feel cool when I was doing everything cause I had to work more for it. I used to feel pro cause I was reading DI like a madman and spacing my attacks perfectly and keeping people on their toes with multi hit moves. Now I just feel...:ohwell:

If we keep going this way I feel we might need that hybrid-NADT code and frankly I don't want to add more stuff like that.

Lastly, I feel I need to say the whole reason is this stupid ****ing pipedream all of you have that we can make a balanced game. That somehow we have the power to make a game where 39 characters can fight and do well. As long as a character isn't Dan Hibiki bad they are fine. People will play them, they will learn how to use them, they will do well, and we'll all realize we got owned by a guy that used Mewtwo.
 

The Cape

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The only multi-hit moves I want to see fixed up are the ones that don't actually work. Luigi's Dash Attack comes to mind. The move actually doesn't work when you land it. You're literally able to block it in the middle of being hit. It can stay a crappy move. I'm not asking it to be better. I just want it to work properly when I successfully land it.

However, moves like Charizard's Up-Smash pretty much works already. It might miss every now and then, but it's usually due to the player's poor spacing, not the move itself.
This was actually the stance initially taken. In my experience (and echoed by some of the other BRoom) fixing multi hit moves was mostly due to moves that you can get out of without even DIing.

Examples:
Zelda U smash
Zelda F smash
(In my experience: People always fell out everytime I used it. On a stationary character) Charizard U smash (I was said to be wrong so its out)
DDD Uair
Ness PK Fire (which no one complained about working better oddly)

In short, when you do a move and the character just falls out at no effort of their own, then the move does not work right. You can still smash DI out, but the move should at least operate properly without DI.

We might have taken a few too far but for the most part the changes were to ensure that the moves actually worked right unless the opponent understands how to combat them and actually make an action to do so.


Also, the zap jump that Shanus keeps refering to is the one done with an aerial. It gives a great horizontal boost to Ness and is actually useful while the PK Fire one is almost worthless.

On Ness down B. Think of it this way:
One hit moves hit for one frame when they hit you while the super armor has a 7 frame window. Then it pushes the opponent away.

Think of Ike trying to bair you from the ledge on Lylat, he hits you and then you push him under the stage where he has basically no chance at recovery. That is a solid use.

The move will most effectively block all one hit attacks and then force your opponent to rethink their recovery, that is its primary use and as Shanus says, if you give it a chance I am sure you will love it.


Edit:
GoG, people love Smash 64 and they couldnt DI nearly as well, didnt have an airdodge and had hugely jacked hitstun. The use of your DI and your ability to dodge combos is the way to live and play this game. Its a thinking mans game. 64 was all combos, Melee was all offense, Brawl was all defense. Brawl+ has a bit of both and the player that can outplay and out think his opponent is the one that wins in the end.
 

goodoldganon

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i think zelda's Usmash was fine without making all the hits connect.
Fixed.

F-smash was always stupid and is one of the few moves I don't mind being fixed. I've been unable to coherently form a sentence, while holding a beer in one hand, moving my character with my chest and consistently escaped the F-smash.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
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Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
Clinton, he probably meant the zap fair jump, not the zap pk fire jump.
He said no such thing...for one thing you can't use a sliding magnet with rising Fair as well as what you can for PK Jump/Firebound which is what he was bringing up...only with the new PK Jump/Firebound can you really use a sliding magnet after them to get some horizontal distance...which is good IMO...

However, I don't hate it completely...the new PK Jump/Firebound are lesser than what they were before because they go too far IMO...but to be fair...the speed boost they got Ness flying at while he is doing them now is prefect for them in Brawl+'s game compared to what they were going at before (which was just vBrawl's IIRC)

Also another thing I like the "zap Jump" for Ness...is Ness' "turn around" PK Jump it is a lot better than what it was. Ness just shoots straight up and fires...no horizontal distance at all is given...which compared to what it was before in vBrawl...where you didn't really have any vertical distance as well...it is a lot better

So...as you can see...I don't hate the PK Jump/Firebound boost completely...I just think it makes Ness move too far forward and too far back...
 

Machiavelli.CF

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If possible....
what i think would be interesting and help in some cases is move spesific hitstun...
that way the moves ppl love to spam consecutivly and actually make it a combo, can be weakend
Example: Utilts.... make them have a little less hitstun so u dont see Utilt>Utilt>Utilt>Utilt combos
i know its not much of a problem but i'd like to see more variation in combos
 

FrozenHobo

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no horizontal distance at all is given
I just think it makes Ness move too far forward or back...
uh, wut....

edit:
If possible....
what i think would be interesting and help in some cases is move spesific hitstun...
that way the moves ppl love to spam consecutivly and actually make it a combo, can be weakend
Example: Utilts.... make them have a little less hitstun so u dont see Utilt>Utilt>Utilt>Utilt combos
i know its not much of a problem but i'd like to see more variation in combos
i thought they eliminated utilt spamming early on.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Zelda's Fsmash was too easily escaped for a move that you can't simply spam and expect to connect, while also requiring that the move must hit to the end to do anything useful at all. It's not like Peach's Dsmash which hits multiple times, but only needs to hit once to do its job, and that's assuming it still did 5 damage per hit.

Zelda's Usmash also required a fix because the KB of the mini hits was too strong. Lighter characters could get spiked into the ground, other characters flew upwards, and the move is punishable when escaped. It could possibly stand to be just slightly weaker to compensate for its improved reliability on connection and to make room for utilt being a stronger, riskier upwards KO, but the move was NOT "fine" the way it was originally.
 

shanus

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Kaiser, when you SA moves in the air with the magnet you can be launched sideways very very fast. Easiest to see in ness dittos wiyh fair
 

_clinton

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uh, wut....
Read the ****ing comment right...

Ness and Lucas have more than one way of putting in their PK Jump/Zap Jump options...

I was talking about 3 things for Ness in my post...

PK Jump=Ness flying forward...Right now...it is at the same distance as his Rising Fair...which is a problem IMO because Ness goes past his PK Fire landing spot...
Firebound=Ness flying backwards while facing forward firing off PK Fire...again Ness flies to far back for it to be useful all the time...because it has the same range horizontally as PK Jump...

"Turn around" PK Jump=With Ness having his back to the foe...put in a PK Jump command...it will lead to Ness turns around in the air to fire off a PK Fire...overall right now it is perfect IMO...
 

FrozenHobo

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Read the ****ing comment right...

Ness and Lucas have more than one way of putting in their PK Jump/Zap Jump options...

I was talking about 3 things for Ness in my post...

PK Jump=Ness flying forward...Right now...it is at the same distance as his Rising Fair...which is a problem IMO because Ness goes past his PK Fire landing spot...
Firebound=Ness flying backwards while facing forward firing off PK Fire...again Ness flies to far back for it to be useful all the time...because it has the same range horizontally as PK Jump...

"Turn around" PK Jump=With Ness having his back to the foe...put in a PK Jump command...it will lead to Ness turns around in the air to fire off a PK Fire...overall right now it is perfect IMO...
just pointing out in one line you said it gave then no horizontal distance and then in another you mention how it sends them forward or backwards. don't know if you're aware, but in brawl, moving left and right counts as horizontal movement. just fyi, ****.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,269
i think zelda's usmash was fine without making all the hits connect.

lol letter fail. meant usmash.
vbrawl Lucas, Ness, Wario, and a few others laughed it off and watched it go stale everytime they fell out of it. The move was a bit too easy to DI out of considering even my 7 yr old bro did it without much effort.
 

FrozenHobo

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vbrawl Lucas, Ness, Wario, and a few others laughed it off and watched it go stale everytime they fell out of it. The move was a bit too easy to DI out of considering even my 7 yr old bro did it without much effort.
i always had trouble DIing it, but that seems to just be me.
 

shanus

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Nov 17, 2005
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Ness PK fire zap jump clearly gives higher launch than aerial. And when i referred to PK fire zap jump to magnet, I thought I was clear.

Also, Kaiser, did you observe the magnet super armor momentum bounce yet. The attack hits you from your from on an aerial magnet, and you launch past them *very* fast about the length of a falcon running FH.
 

Revven

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First, Falco's u-tilt was added not because we wanted to or it was cool. It was done because Falco needed a way to get people into the air. Despite what many people think, the lasers aren't a be all end all tactic that shuts people down. You can make that argument for heavies, but that is another ball park. Point is Falco had no reliable way to get people into the air besides D-air, so u-tilt was seen fit as the move to buff.

See how this is different then giving Lucario's d-air the ability to always connect? All it does is fix a move people thought was wrong. The move still served a purpose. It can be used to stall not only while recovering but also while guarding the edge. It's ability to stop momentum isn't ground breaking, but it certainly is something. It's also not like you never saw D-air hit both times.

Sure it wasn't that reliable to hit both times, but it didn't need to be since Lucario was fine before hand. Is it breaking him? No, but it certainly makes playing as him feel easier. Lucario can stall 'all day' (figure of speech) by the edge and know that he'll always get that powerful second hit to seal the deal. The recovering person can mix things up, but only so much he's on a time limit. I used to get hit by it now and again because it was a reliable surprise attack. Now it's a much more reliable gimp and it's also pretty stupid good at preventing him from being edgeguarded if he recover high.

I also still laugh when people say Lucario's no free fall should stay because it's 'cool'. According to who? His mains? Randoms? I call bull ****. I want Ganondorf to have his sword moveset. It would probably be better then he currently is and I think it's cool. Point is, it's a needless change, but it's too late now since it's pretty much here forever. It's been around too long.

I'm ranting about nothing and I know the WBR knows I've hated Lucario for a long time so it might be bias so really so my main point is:

I HATE all these move fixes. Many of them are garbage. Brawl+ is easy to play and I'm fine with that to an extent, but when it means I don't even have to space my multihit moves as well anymore and many of main combo moves and throws are getting better at comboing I start to get a little downhearted and sad. I just feel the game is getting stupidly easy. Combos feel too free now a days since a lot of angles and throws work 'too' well, all of my attacks do what I want them to do (which yes is a bad thing) and then only thing stopping me from 0 to deathing people is a stupid good airdodge.

Basically matches go like this:

space space space, hit with the setup, insert combo with a little DI reading, enemy air dodges, start over.

I don't want melee air dodge
I don't want L-cancelling
I don't want wavedashing

I want Brawl+. I used to feel cool when I was doing everything cause I had to work more for it. I used to feel pro cause I was reading DI like a madman and spacing my attacks perfectly and keeping people on their toes with multi hit moves. Now I just feel...:ohwell:

If we keep going this way I feel we might need that hybrid-NADT code and frankly I don't want to add more stuff like that.

Lastly, I feel I need to say the whole reason is this stupid ****ing pipedream all of you have that we can make a balanced game. That somehow we have the power to make a game where 39 characters can fight and do well. As long as a character isn't Dan Hibiki bad they are fine. People will play them, they will learn how to use them, they will do well, and we'll all realize we got owned by a guy that used Mewtwo.
There's some irony in this post. You want things to be harder yet you want Ganon's Side B to always have a guaranteed hit afterwards on most of the cast. Isn't that making the game easier as well? Ganon's Side B being techable actually works just fine, it just takes actual skill to techchase someone with it, especially after I've played Shell vs playing Zeon: Shell couldn't techchase with it but, Zeon was able to techchase me left and right with it, I almost always got hit by something and if I didn't I managed to throw him off (which is what should eventually happen anyhow).

So if you want to make the assertion on the moves you don't like linking better (D3 Uair, Lucario Dair) then you should also consider your thoughts on Ganon's Side B, even IF it DID used to have guaranteed hits on some of the cast in vBrawl...

D3 Uair is still easily SDI'd BY THE WAY!! It doesn't still always link into the last hit, it's made a little harder to SDI on the other end of the spectrum but it's not always guaranteed still, you DO need to space it properly to actually get all the hits in. So I'm not actually sure if the D3 Uair change should stay or go, personally, D3 isn't all that yet but at the same time when (and if) we get to his minions I think he would be better (as it stands, the toss is slow).
 

Sterowent

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oh ****. this might get ugly...

GoG mentioned his reasoning for non-tech sideB in the ganon+ thread.

the point made was that Ganon's brawl identity basically rested in his sideB, the truest sidetrack from him being a clone of CF. as well, the move's purpose was supposedly meant to be used as a set up attack. Move's slow enough to where you had to catch your opponent off guard in the first place, so having to predict for even a follow up from a move that's hard to land anyway reduces the sideB's effectiveness.

but GoG seemed a little pissed, so i'm waiting to see what'll be said here...


(how's that cam code doin'? think plan zero'll possibly bring new ATs?)
 

shanus

Smash Hero
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Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
First, Falco's u-tilt was added not because we wanted to or it was cool. It was done because Falco needed a way to get people into the air. Despite what many people think, the lasers aren't a be all end all tactic that shuts people down. You can make that argument for heavies, but that is another ball park. Point is Falco had no reliable way to get people into the air besides D-air, so u-tilt was seen fit as the move to buff.

See how this is different then giving Lucario's d-air the ability to always connect? All it does is fix a move people thought was wrong. The move still served a purpose. It can be used to stall not only while recovering but also while guarding the edge. It's ability to stop momentum isn't ground breaking, but it certainly is something. It's also not like you never saw D-air hit both times.

Sure it wasn't that reliable to hit both times, but it didn't need to be since Lucario was fine before hand. Is it breaking him? No, but it certainly makes playing as him feel easier. Lucario can stall 'all day' (figure of speech) by the edge and know that he'll always get that powerful second hit to seal the deal. The recovering person can mix things up, but only so much he's on a time limit. I used to get hit by it now and again because it was a reliable surprise attack. Now it's a much more reliable gimp and it's also pretty stupid good at preventing him from being edgeguarded if he recover high.

I also still laugh when people say Lucario's no free fall should stay because it's 'cool'. According to who? His mains? Randoms? I call bull ****. I want Ganondorf to have his sword moveset. It would probably be better then he currently is and I think it's cool. Point is, it's a needless change, but it's too late now since it's pretty much here forever. It's been around too long.

I'm ranting about nothing and I know the WBR knows I've hated Lucario for a long time so it might be bias so really so my main point is:

I HATE all these move fixes. Many of them are garbage. Brawl+ is easy to play and I'm fine with that to an extent, but when it means I don't even have to space my multihit moves as well anymore and many of main combo moves and throws are getting better at comboing I start to get a little downhearted and sad. I just feel the game is getting stupidly easy. Combos feel too free now a days since a lot of angles and throws work 'too' well, all of my attacks do what I want them to do (which yes is a bad thing) and then only thing stopping me from 0 to deathing people is a stupid good airdodge.

Basically matches go like this:

space space space, hit with the setup, insert combo with a little DI reading, enemy air dodges, start over.

I don't want melee air dodge
I don't want L-cancelling
I don't want wavedashing

I want Brawl+. I used to feel cool when I was doing everything cause I had to work more for it. I used to feel pro cause I was reading DI like a madman and spacing my attacks perfectly and keeping people on their toes with multi hit moves. Now I just feel...:ohwell:

If we keep going this way I feel we might need that hybrid-NADT code and frankly I don't want to add more stuff like that.

Lastly, I feel I need to say the whole reason is this stupid ****ing pipedream all of you have that we can make a balanced game. That somehow we have the power to make a game where 39 characters can fight and do well. As long as a character isn't Dan Hibiki bad they are fine. People will play them, they will learn how to use them, they will do well, and we'll all realize we got owned by a guy that used Mewtwo.
Lucario's upB change serves many forms of utility which is clear that you haven't put much thought into, or refuse to out of your dislike for his character.

First, Lucario's upB is the only non-damage upB in the game no freefall. Him being able to attack out of it actually doesnt do that much to his recovery options though, as if he is going to get gimped or edgehogged from it, it would have happened regardless.

So what was the point then? Its two-fold. First, Lucario is a rather defensive character in vB, resorted to retreating aura spheres and the like. This change gave lucario a variable approach option, encouraging offense in a game where he is largely viewed as a *ugh* match-up for any opponent (i.e. playing against ROB lol). I remember telling you this before, but it seems you selectively forgot this in your unfound hate for lucario.

Furthermore, it gives lucario a much more unique aspect to his playstyle. His aura was defining, but his movement was predictable, and dry. This further invigorated his playstyle to the point while enhancing his play level. Lucario is in no ways overpowered, and as with many mid-tier characters, this change provided the necessary buffs for a slightly more encouragable offense, a slightly less predictable recovery, and significant levels of awesome.

I could go on about this, but i think it's sufficient enough logic to say your bias on Lucario as a character overrides if the change is unmerited or if he is infact broken by said change.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
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Messages
3,189
just pointing out in one line you said it gave then no horizontal distance and then in another you mention how it sends them forward or backwards. don't know if you're aware, but in brawl, moving left and right counts as horizontal movement. just fyi, ****.
How is it hard to understand that I was talking about two different ways that you can use said move that produce different results with Ness, and even gave it a different name to try and make sure people understood what I was talking about?

Again though for people that don't understand what I'm talking about....try this out...

Take Ness to BF...and put him on one of the 1st level platforms...
Fall off said platform and perform Ness' PK Jump...notice where the bolt hits...and notice where Ness flies off too? I guess it would be ok over the fact that you may have a chance at hitting someone with a Bair in that situation if they got hit by PK Fire...but still...
Now do the same thing with a rising 2nd jump Fair...see how much distance that covered? Both of them should pass through the other platform to the other side...
 

FrozenHobo

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How is it hard to understand that I was talking about two different ways that you can use said move that produce different results with Ness, and even gave it a different name to try and make sure people understood what I was talking about?

Again though for people that don't understand what I'm talking about....try this out...

Take Ness to BF...and put him on one of the 1st level platforms...
Fall off said platform and perform Ness' PK Jump...notice where the bolt hits...and notice where Ness flies off too? I guess it would be ok over the fact that you may have a chance at hitting someone with a Bair in that situation if they got hit by PK Fire...but still...
Now do the same thing with a rising 2nd jump Fair...see how much distance that covered? Both of them should pass through the other platform to the other side...
your point wasn't confusing, i was pointing out your contradiction in saying it didn't give him any horizontal distance and then turn around and comment on how far it sends him. i notice you edited your post too, so you even KNOW you were contradicting yourself. don't turn this into me misunderstanding you when you know good and well that you ****ed up your statement.
 

Sterowent

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aw, i enjoyed that post. anyhow, i did forget how stable you guys can be. cooler heads prevail after all.

for the most part, i agree on that sideB stuff.
anyhow, guess i'd best try to get some rest here...
 

thesage

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I have been able to use the zap jump with aerials consistently against opponents usefully... It works great for aerial/shield pressure, especially when combined with nair/fair.

Ness's recovery is still easy to edgeguard, it just makes it so that he isn't gimped at lol percents anymore.
 

Dan_X

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:The same logic was used for Falco's faster uptilt; he didn't necessarily need it, but it was sped up anyway.
actually, the move was so slow before that it couldn't reliably combo. You could only follow up in the event that the enemy failed to jump or AD as soon as they left hitstun. His u-tilt speed up is very important in that it is the bread and butter of his combo game... It's essential.
 
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Deleted member

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I always though lucario attacking out of up b was dumb but i dont play him so i never commented on it. However it's been in the game too long now to take it out.
Yeah, I'm there too, I didn't believe Lucario needed a buff, but what do I know, I don't main him.

His u-tilt speed up is very important in that it is the bread and butter of his combo game... It's essential.
is the bread and butter of his combo game
is the bread
ICWUTUDIDDER
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
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ICWUTUDIDDER
hands off my bread!

First, Falco's u-tilt was added not because we wanted to or it was cool. It was done because Falco needed a way to get people into the air. Despite what many people think, the lasers aren't a be all end all tactic that shuts people down. You can make that argument for heavies, but that is another ball park. Point is Falco had no reliable way to get people into the air besides D-air, so u-tilt was seen fit as the move to buff.
-GoG

QFT!!!
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
your point wasn't confusing, i was pointing out your contradiction in saying it didn't give him any horizontal distance and then turn around and comment on how far it sends him. i notice you edited your post too, so you even KNOW you were contradicting yourself. don't turn this into me misunderstanding you when you know good and well that you ****ed up your statement.
I put "turn around" PK Jump in my original post way before you so called pointed out my error...you are the one who failed to read my post right...k?

There is about a minute before I edited my 1st post last and when you made your comment for the 1st time...care to guess what I really did in that time while you made your comment?
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
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2,904
Location
Iowa
actually, the move was so slow before that it couldn't reliably combo. You could only follow up in the event that the enemy failed to jump or AD as soon as they left hitstun. His u-tilt speed up is very important in that it is the bread and butter of his combo game... It's essential.
If Utilt didn't combo before, then how was it the bread and butter of his combo game?

As for reliable ways to get people in the air, he has throws, dash attack, Dair, Bair, momentum etc. Im not advocating against the change (Sort of late and many people have already expressed disapproval) just that people shouldn't act like Falco and Utilt combos are just synonymous somehow.

This is why I feel gimped when asking for changes for my chars, seeing as how they are new and have no long-established precedence. :ivysaur::sonic:
 

Roxas215

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
1,882
Location
The World That Never Was
If Utilt didn't combo before, then how was it the bread and butter of his combo game?

As for reliable ways to get people in the air, he has throws, dash attack, Dair, Bair, momentum etc. Im not advocating against the change (Sort of late and many people have already expressed disapproval) just that people shouldn't act like Falco and Utilt combos are just synonymous somehow.

This is why I feel gimped when asking for changes for my chars, seeing as how they are new and have no long-established precedence. :ivysaur::sonic:
I would like to help with anything ivy related!
 

RyokoYaksa

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
5,056
Location
Philadelphia, USA
I personally think the Falco utilt speed deserves to be looked at again. I don't hink it needs quite *that* much of a speed up to achieve the desired effect.
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,131
Location
Montreal, Quebec
After playing Melee, it feels a lot worse to be comboed over and over again by just an utilt. Are you planning on making them have more KB? It would force you to do more interesting things.
 
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