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[PKNintendo]

My problem with the game becoming too easy is because whenever a large enough group whines about a weakness, we cave and change it. Ness has always had a ****ty and gimpable recovery but instead of coming up with some cool on the stage tricks we caved and gave his recovery a boost. First it was infinite PKT1 (dumb) and now it's some bizarre SA on down-b with a stupid powerful pushback. I won't lie, it's cool to see what we can do and has a lot of potential, but I'd have rather seen a whole mess of other things tried before we buffed his recovery.

I also don't get why anytime a few people complain that their multi-hit attack didn't connect means we have to change it. Just because the move hits twice doesn't mean you should automatically finish the whole move off because you hit with first part. I'm looking at Zard U-smash, D3, U-air, ZSS F-air and I think Up-b or U-smash, Samus jab, and tons of others. All of those moves worked perfectly fine. If you wanted to KO with ZSS F-air you spaced for the second hit and it's not like you missed the second hit on Zard's U-smash more then you hit. None of these moves are even their bread and butter combo starts or something.

If D-3 had to start his combos with U-air I'd be fine making it link better but instead we decided 'Since I can't space my attack right or my opponent is smart enough to SDI out of this attack we should make it harder to get out of. Because by making all the multi hit moves safe once they start connecting is cool, interesting, and fun. It's never cool or competitive to have an idea backfire on you because you messed up the spacing on it or your opponent was smart'

We are taking too many moves and making them one dimensional and safe because people are arbitrarily deciding how X move should work or how Y weakness shouldn't be there. Instead of waiting, practicing and trying to master the move into our repertoire people complain about it knowing we'll cave and allow them an EZ-mode move.

P.S Deadlands sucked and was boring. Making the Mansion take a while to come back makes the stage an interesting counterpick instead of ANOTHER Final D or Battlefield clone

P.P.S Our desire to change a ton of these stages is fine and dandy for competitive friendlies, but our tourney stage setup should try and draw from what we have. If we adopt too many of these stages we ruin the counterpicking system.

Ness recovery didn't get any better from the down B. It has SA from frame 1-7.
After that it acts like it did in Brawl with a bigger push.

Hey in the infinite PKT1's were removed.

 

[5ive]

There's a reason why Luigi's Mansion is a Banned/Counterpick stage by SBR definition. Just saying.

I think this is worth quoting.

I can't believe we are even considering the return of the mansion. Bringing back the mansion does nothing but revives a gimmicky element which has no place in Brawl+, nor any competitive set. Luigi's mansion itself is not viable enough to be regarded as a counter pick, which is why it is placed under the banned/counter-pick area in the rule set.

In Brawl+, where the main goal is to revamp the competitiveness of Brawl, bringing back or even promoting any aspect of the mansion really goes against our main purpose; especially at the loss of viable neutral (Deadlands).

I think the WBR should rethink the removal of Deadlands, and rethink the idea of bringing back Luigi's Mansion's original elements. If anything, I would give the option to choose from Deadlands and Luigi's Mansion via a button press or seperate icon.

Yes, I know it takes longer for the mansion to re-spawn. It's a good idea to make it a better counterpick, but anything with the mansion just makes it a gimmicky, "fool-around" stage.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

But I agree with you, though, goodoldganon, on that charizard's usmash does NOT need to be fixed. It was perfectly fine before, and trying to make it link "better" is just a waste of code.

 

[Roxas215]

Also wth is wrong with nana??? She is beyond stupid

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's called AI. It's not perfect, and Sakurai probably designed nana for old grandmas playing with their grandsons. >.>

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I see what your trying to do with mansion shanus but the fact is everyone liked deadlands. Just bring it back!

Anyway some stages needs to be left the way they are. Temple,New Pork,Bridge etc. These stages have no business being tournament viable as they are fun stages everyone likes to play on every now and then. We have more then enough stages that are tournament viable. Not every stage in the game has to be.

does the idea of holding abutton to toggle effects such as freezing?
no Z = tournamet legal
Z = Freindlies, unedited stages
or vise versa

 

[Plum]

What counterpick doesn't have some sort of gimmick to it?

 

[goodoldganon]

Once again I'll play around with it more and have my opponents get more experience, but I was certainly saving myself from gimps more then I ever did before we added infinite PKT or SA on down-b. Ya, it's a nerf to his recovery since we removed infinite PKT but it's still a buff over his original recovery. Ness isn't the only culprit of getting a weakness changed around instead of playing to his strengths. Let's take a look at a simple change at first that is actually a pretty good buff.

-Nair has had its hitbox frames extended such that it lasts a total of 43 frames, hits: 7-12, 19-27 (old total: 44, Hit: 7-8, 20-21)

Because of Falcon's absurdly high hitstun constant Falcon's punishment game was out of whack with how hard he got punished. Falcon should have been 0 to deathing people left and right because of how hard combos could take a stock from from him. Instead of alleviating Falcon's getting punished problem we buffed his ability to punish people with a better N-air. The move now is a great start up for the man fests he runs on people.

Ness right now is the culprit because his players are whining way too much but hopefully we can fix it all up and make him play well and not remove the things that made Ness, well Ness. Look at Ivy. Infinite Up-b was stupid. A terrible terrible idea that gave Ivysaur a more usable recovery. Being off the stage should mean death for Ivy. Now Cape went and redid her and she feels great. She's not top material but she's **** fun and she ***** on the stage.

Since most of this stuff gets fixed out in the end, it's mostly a lot of the recent move changes that upset me. Mainly multi-hit moves but even some angles to make them combo better or hard to DI away from.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Goodoldganon, you are amazing. 'nuff said. I agree about Ivy too. <3 down throw>up b

 

[5ive]

What counterpick doesn't have some sort of gimmick to it?

What other counter pick can you have massive ground to ceiling combos by spamming u-tilt (lolteching)? I agree, counter picks DO have gimmicks, but so do banned stages. The thing that separates them is the extent of the gimmicks.

Might I add that spending time breaking down the mansion isn't what Smash is all about. Nor are ceiling combos.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't know how serious everyone takes GRAPE names but realize I am speaking only for myself. I've been out of Brawl+ for almost two weeks and recently played around the other night. I plan to get back into the swing of things here sooner or later but that's besides the point. Basically I don't speak for the WBR cause frankly I wasn't involved in the changing process for these past patches.

 

[PKNintendo]

Once again I'll play around with it more and have my opponents get more experience, but I was certainly saving myself from gimps more then I ever did before we added infinite PKT or SA on down-b. Ya, it's a nerf to his recovery since we removed infinite PKT but it's still a buff over his original recovery. Ness isn't the only culprit of getting a weakness changed around instead of playing to his strengths. Let's take a look at a simple change at first that is actually a pretty good buff.

-Nair has had its hitbox frames extended such that it lasts a total of 43 frames, hits: 7-12, 19-27 (old total: 44, Hit: 7-8, 20-21)

Because of Falcon's absurdly high hitstun constant Falcon's punishment game was out of whack with how hard he got punished. Falcon should have been 0 to deathing people left and right because of how hard combos could take a stock from from him. Instead of alleviating Falcon's getting punished problem we buffed his ability to punish people with a better N-air. The move now is a great start up for the man fests he runs on people.

Ness right now is the culprit because his players are whining way too much but hopefully we can fix it all up and make him play well and not remove the things that made Ness, well Ness. Look at Ivy. Infinite Up-b was stupid. A terrible terrible idea that gave Ivysaur a more usable recovery. Being off the stage should mean death for Ivy. Now Cape went and redid her and she feels great. She's not top material but she's **** fun and she ***** on the stage.

Since most of this stuff gets fixed out in the end, it's mostly a lot of the recent move changes that upset me. Mainly multi-hit moves but even some angles to make them combo better or hard to DI away from.

Dude, psi magnet SA from 1-7 really doesn't help his recovery. It's a good move yada-yada-yada, but it isn't doing his recovery any favor since it's 7 frames long!!!
It's pretty much no different than the original.

The buff was like... a +1 or 2 for his recovery. (out of 100)

 

[Roxas215]

My problem with the game becoming too easy is because whenever a large enough group whines about a weakness, we cave and change it. Ness has always had a ****ty and gimpable recovery but instead of coming up with some cool on the stage tricks we caved and gave his recovery a boost. First it was infinite PKT1 (dumb) and now it's some bizarre SA on down-b with a stupid powerful pushback. I won't lie, it's cool to see what we can do and has a lot of potential, but I'd have rather seen a whole mess of other things tried before we buffed his recovery.

I also don't get why anytime a few people complain that their multi-hit attack didn't connect means we have to change it. Just because the move hits twice doesn't mean you should automatically finish the whole move off because you hit with first part. I'm looking at Zard U-smash, D3, U-air, ZSS F-air and I think Up-b or U-smash, Samus jab, and tons of others. All of those moves worked perfectly fine. If you wanted to KO with ZSS F-air you spaced for the second hit and it's not like you missed the second hit on Zard's U-smash more then you hit. None of these moves are even their bread and butter combo starts or something.

If D-3 had to start his combos with U-air I'd be fine making it link better but instead we decided 'Since I can't space my attack right or my opponent is smart enough to SDI out of this attack we should make it harder to get out of. Because by making all the multi hit moves safe once they start connecting is cool, interesting, and fun. It's never cool or competitive to have an idea backfire on you because you messed up the spacing on it or your opponent was smart'

We are taking too many moves and making them one dimensional and safe because people are arbitrarily deciding how X move should work or how Y weakness shouldn't be there. Instead of waiting, practicing and trying to master the move into our repertoire people complain about it knowing we'll cave and allow them an EZ-mode move.

P.S Deadlands sucked and was boring. Making the Mansion take a while to come back makes the stage an interesting counterpick instead of ANOTHER Final D or Battlefield clone

P.P.S Our desire to change a ton of these stages is fine and dandy for competitive friendlies, but our tourney stage setup should try and draw from what we have. If we adopt too many of these stages we ruin the counterpicking system.

I agree with everything except for deadlands. Why are people under the assumption that deadlands was a neutral anyway? Deadlands was a counter pick in itself because of how big the stage was, It allows chars such as peach to last longer but also doesn't have the stupid mansion in the way for chars like rob and oli to ****. Besides more people want deadlands back then the altered mansion. Just bring it back.(Then again that would probably fall into yall "giving in" again.)


And to symphonicsage about zard and his usmash. It is his best smash but it's not his bread and butter. Zard is feared because of his gimp game not because of usmash.

 

[5ive]

I'm glad GoG is ignoring my input on Deadlands.

Seriously though, the WBR, should really re-consider the re-addition of deadlands

Spoiler

alliteration ftw

. Counter picking based on the Mansion provides combos that shouldn't really be happening. That goes against a lot of the competitiveness we want to achieve. People are complaining about the skill factor of this game. Why give them another point to complain about?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

"It's his bread and butter FOR SMASHES."

I repeat, FOR HIS SMASHES. I never said gimping wasn't his best attribute, either.

 

[Dan_X]

I'd much much much rather Deadlands over an altered Mansion. It's a campy map to the extreme of campy. With the mansion present, no one fights or puts themselves into harms way unless they are safe on the bottom level (under the ceilings). Half the fight takes place down there. It's ********. It's a massive game of tag. If you wanted to, you could stall the entire match just by avoiding your opponent. lol. It's easy to avoid the opponent long enough to position yourself back down to the first floor safety zones.

Really, DeadLands is better in every way. If we could have both, that'd be great! However, if not, I'd much rather Deadlands.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I prefer Deadlands in every way, but I still want the mansion whenever I wanna be silly and have campy fun. I like being silly and campy every once in a while. :D

 

[MK26]

+1 for slowed mansion. If your opponent is camping, you can at least benefit from knocking down 2 or 3 of the pillars, unlike in vbrawl. it's a failry polarizing counterpick, which isnt necessarily a bad thing...it forces you to think before you choose your character. I like the decision to reverse deadlands

 

[_clinton]

Man again people...Unlimited PKT1 didn't do **** for Ness' recovery except stop *** gimps from things like fly guys and moving platforms...

Ness was still a floating target that said...Knee me Captain Falcon when I'm recovering...he still had range issues with his recovery...which are a larger issue than *** gimps IMO...

The main thing that unlimited PKT1 did for Ness' game that was good was restore to the pressure game he had lost with the game speeding up so much...

Also the magnet buff doesn't do anything to Ness' recovery that it already didn't do pretty much...I personally don't like the Zap Jump that much as well...for recovery a rising Fair seems to be better IMO for a good % of the time...

For offense...Ness flies too far...and for defense...Ness flies too far there as well to the point where it is limited because you might go off the stage...but that is just me...I personally think somewhere between the normal and the new Zap jump that we have might be the best thing for Ness' (What would it be if the 2nd jump frames was 1 instead of 2 is what I mean)

 

[JCaesar]

My problem with the game becoming too easy is because whenever a large enough group whines about a weakness, we cave and change it. Ness has always had a ****ty and gimpable recovery but instead of coming up with some cool on the stage tricks we caved and gave his recovery a boost. First it was infinite PKT1 (dumb) and now it's some bizarre SA on down-b with a stupid powerful pushback. I won't lie, it's cool to see what we can do and has a lot of potential, but I'd have rather seen a whole mess of other things tried before we buffed his recovery.

I also don't get why anytime a few people complain that their multi-hit attack didn't connect means we have to change it. Just because the move hits twice doesn't mean you should automatically finish the whole move off because you hit with first part. I'm looking at Zard U-smash, D3, U-air, ZSS F-air and I think Up-b or U-smash, Samus jab, and tons of others. All of those moves worked perfectly fine. If you wanted to KO with ZSS F-air you spaced for the second hit and it's not like you missed the second hit on Zard's U-smash more then you hit. None of these moves are even their bread and butter combo starts or something.

If D-3 had to start his combos with U-air I'd be fine making it link better but instead we decided 'Since I can't space my attack right or my opponent is smart enough to SDI out of this attack we should make it harder to get out of. Because by making all the multi hit moves safe once they start connecting is cool, interesting, and fun. It's never cool or competitive to have an idea backfire on you because you messed up the spacing on it or your opponent was smart'

We are taking too many moves and making them one dimensional and safe because people are arbitrarily deciding how X move should work or how Y weakness shouldn't be there. Instead of waiting, practicing and trying to master the move into our repertoire people complain about it knowing we'll cave and allow them an EZ-mode move.

P.S Deadlands sucked and was boring. Making the Mansion take a while to come back makes the stage an interesting counterpick instead of ANOTHER Final D or Battlefield clone

P.P.S Our desire to change a ton of these stages is fine and dandy for competitive friendlies, but our tourney stage setup should try and draw from what we have. If we adopt too many of these stages we ruin the counterpicking system.

I agree with this pretty much 100%. The move "fixes" always seemed pretty unnecessary to me but I never spoke up because everyone else seemed to be OK with them, and they didn't affect my mains. I'm not a fan of removing the main function of SDI (escaping multihit moves), which seems to be the road we're currently going down.

As for the Deadlands vs Mansion stuff, just from reading the posts on this page, it makes me think people just need to think a bit more when they're playing. Use the mansion to your advantage. Either pick a character who ***** there, or just play smart, hide in the mansion when you're at high %, destroy it when your opponent is at high % or if you're getting camped, etc. The slowed down mansion rebuilding makes it a LOT harder to camp against a smart opponent. Mansion is one of the few counterpicks that you can actively remove the part of the stage that's not in your favor if you want to.

We don't need another neutral. In fact, we don't need many more counterpicks either. Some are a stone's throw away from being legit CPs (Port Town, Skyworld), but other are either unsalvageable or not even worth saving (Mushroomy Kingdom I, I mean come on!).

And ****, when will people stfu about Ness?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-3 is, though. Just check out Neko's idea <3

 

[Plum]

I think it really comes down to what serves the game better.
ANOTHER neutral with nothing new to add that other neutrals don't provide besides a high ceiling, or a unique counterpick stage that does exactly what a counterpick should do.

It plays well into certain character's strong points (such as Olimar).
It hinders other characters and deters their preferred playstyle (like Falco).
To characters who don't fit into either of those categories, it doesn't do much to deter from their strategy at all.

The issues with it (mostly the ceiling on the first floor) aren't even a big deal with the mansion taking so long to respawn. If you seriously can't land a KO because of the ceiling then destroy the mansion. Now you have over a minute to land a KO move. If you want to spam projectiles that get stopped by the pillars, destroy the mansion and play without it for over a minute.

Complaints about the stage being campy are silly as well.
It's campy when you let it be campy. If you find that the opponent is able to just defensively wall out your strategy due to the layout of the stage then a big lightbulb should go off in your head.
Ever think about changing up your gameplan? What a shocking thing to propose, I know, but bear with me. Maybe if you changed what you are doing things would work out a bit better eh? Maybe you can attack the pillars a couple of times and destroy the mansion. See what I'm getting at here?

<3 slowed mansion (and Princess Peach's Castle texture to go with it )

 

[5ive]

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-3 is, though. Just check out Neko's idea <3

Link or explain.

And JCaesar well said. But as long as it has anything to do with a mansion, I will still hate it.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i remember leafgreen wanting a dair fix for lucario (the move now connects 100% of the time).. just because. he couldn't give me a reasonable answer; only so that the move "works". and as far as i am concerned.. the move worked fine, and it didn't hinder his character at all. just because we can.. doesn't mean we should..

lucario again, btw, was he really so bad that he needed to be able to attack out of his upB? why are we buffing recoveries? do we want matches to last forever like in vbrawl?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Check out page 420, a lot of the page is about Neko's mushroomy kingdom 1-2 idea. I meant 1-2 not 1-3 btw.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Also wth is wrong with nana??? She is beyond stupid

indeed.

It's called AI. It's not perfect, and Sakurai probably designed nana for old grandmas playing with their grandsons. >.>

no ****. it also has to do with the B+ codes not fully effecting her. its one of the main things hurting ICs right now.

LM was a campy stage in vBrawl and its a campy stage in B+. plus, the breaking/rebuilding animation is just bad when its slowed down. i just laughed when i saw it the first time. it just looks so stupid.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

indeed.


no ****. it also has to do with the B+ codes not fully effecting her. its one of the main things hurting ICs right now.

LM was a campy stage in vBrawl and its a campy stage in B+. plus, the breaking/rebuilding animation is just bad when its slowed down. i just laughed when i saw it the first time. it just looks so stupid.

I was kinda of using a "no **** dude" attitude when I said that.

 

[Alphatron]

Ganon has a good point. Personally as long as he isn't reduced to fair spam, buffing Ness' onstage game and removing the new magnet(D would be fine by me.

On making certain multi hit moves hit better, I see what you mean so long as the move worked fine before. Dedede's uair was perfect on all but the spacies for me.

Also agreed on stages. But a button press on Luigi's Area seems to be the best for this.

 

[DaiAndOh]

i remember leafgreen wanting a dair fix for lucario (the move now connects 100% of the time).. just because. he couldn't give me a reasonable answer; only so that the move "works". and as far as i am concerned.. the move worked fine, and it didn't hinder his character at all. just because we can.. doesn't mean we should..

lucario again, btw, was he really so bad that he needed to be able to attack out of his upB? why are we buffing recoveries? do we want matches to last forever like in vbrawl?

Seriously, why does Lucario need to attack out up+b. His wall cling thing is fine enough, and plenty of characters have worse recoveries and don't get boosts. Not like he needed help since day 1, except his downb which is too weird to help anyway.

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually I'm fine with Ness as of right now.

No more nerf/buffs. They will only create more wars...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I was always wondering why the hell lucario can attack out of his up b now. >.>

 

[Jimbo_G]

The only multi-hit moves I want to see fixed up are the ones that don't actually work. Luigi's Dash Attack comes to mind. The move actually doesn't work when you land it. You're literally able to block it in the middle of being hit. It can stay a crappy move. I'm not asking it to be better. I just want it to work properly when I successfully land it.

However, moves like Charizard's Up-Smash pretty much works already. It might miss every now and then, but it's usually due to the player's poor spacing, not the move itself.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Seriously, why does Lucario need to attack out up+b. His wall cling thing is fine enough, and plenty of characters have worse recoveries and don't get boosts. Not like he needed help since day 1, except his downb which is too weird to help anyway.

Not for any good reason I was told.

Leaf's stance on Lucario's upB

[09:54:48] Jiangjunizzy: i dont see how that change was necessary
[09:55:11] leafgreen386 (LF386): well of course it wasn't
[09:55:25] leafgreen386 (LF386): does that mean we shouldn't include it?
[09:56:19] leafgreen386 (LF386): seriously, there are some things that are too awesome to not keep
[09:57:14] leafgreen386 (LF386): luc is still easily edgeguardable

Here is leaf's stance on Lucario's dair:

[22:33:55] leafgreen386 (LF386): lucario dair was to make the two hits always connect
[22:34:14] leafgreen386 (LF386): because if you hit with the first one and not the second, they got very little kb
[22:37:51] leafgreen386 (LF386): marth can benefit from NOT tipping a move
[22:38:02] leafgreen386 (LF386): lucario doesn't really benefit from not hitting with the second hit
[22:39:15] leafgreen386 (LF386): we're trying to streamline characters even if they don't necessarily NEED the changes

The same logic was used for Falco's faster uptilt; he didn't necessarily need it, but it was sped up anyway.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i think fixing multi hit moves would make the game feel less easy. as it is now you can just trow out D3s uair or dair and your guaranteed that pretty much all of the hits will connect. making some multi hit attacks easier to DI might help the game pretty well.

and i see the lucario up b fix as pretty stupid. he has a great all around game, why does he need to be able to a) ledge cling out of up b, and b) up b then jump when his up b has so much mobility anyway. i think it would be fine if you decreased the distance he could travel. it would give him a much closer stage game and not encourage letting him follow people too far off the side.

 

[shanus]

The first hit is still SDIable on lucario dair. However the move had a high growth constant which made end users not even have to Sdi the hit to escape.

Fuethermore, Lucario is still largely regarded as a mid tier after his (few changes), in which im pretty sure we can say ness falls into now as well.

Also, i still laugh every time people say the SA on magnet sucks when its pretty clear they just have trouble landing it. Not only does it give a crazy momentum boost, but the sliding wind hitbox is epic as well. And to whoever said his zap jump sucks, thats just plain wrong. Its trivial to use, convenient to use the momentum to a sliding magnet and use the larger aerial windbox to repel any edgeguards.

So to ness mains, try thinking a bit more and applying these changes instead of just assuming its bad since you dont get it.

Phew this took a while to type
on my phone, or id go into lucario upB as well

 

[Lil'E]

???

Landing the SA is easy with practice. I just find no use for it.

 

[MK26]

no johns shanus, get a phone with a full keyboard or lrn2t9
lol

lucario upb is better on the offensive than as a recovery...if you dont like having to face it, cp lylat or something

 

[FrozenHobo]

no johns shanus, get a phone with a full keyboard or lrn2t9
lol

lucario upb is better on the offensive than as a recovery...if you dont like having to face it, cp lylat or something

exactly, the extremespeed buff help offense. he doesn't need it to have as much range as vBrawl.

 

[PKNintendo]

The first hit is still SDIable on lucario dair. However the move had a high growth constant which made end users not even have to Sdi the hit to escape.

Fuethermore, Lucario is still largely regarded as a mid tier after his (few changes), in which im pretty sure we can say ness falls into now as well.

Also, i still laugh every time people say the SA on magnet sucks when its pretty clear they just have trouble landing it. Not only does it give a crazy momentum boost, but the sliding wind hitbox is epic as well. And to whoever said his zap jump sucks, thats just plain wrong. Its trivial to use, convenient to use the momentum to a sliding magnet and use the larger aerial windbox to repel any edgeguards.

So to ness mains, try thinking a bit more and applying these changes instead of just assuming its bad since you dont get it.

Phew this took a while to type
on my phone, or id go into lucario upB as well

**** straight.

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, what momentum boost does the magnet give? Please elaborate, because I don't think you mean the wind pushback it has now.