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[FrozenHobo]

Let's just ignore the fact that they have great combo potential outside their grab game, and a 100% guaranteed kill at the proper percent from one grab. But hey, why should anyone be afraid of that? Even without the infinites their grab is still the most feared in the game.

no, they don't have 100% guarantied kill anymore.

And you know as well as I know that Nana is being worked on. Just because a code doesn't exist for it yet doesn't mean they aren't trying to fix her. She doesn't work under the new physics YET. Key word is YET.

fair enough. i can wait to see what they do to fix nana and see if that alleviates some of her idiocy in B+. it won't change the fact she has no concept of DI and can still be killed by... well anybody. i can't think of a single character that would have a hard time killing her with the hitstun/knockback now.

i don't have a problem with her when desyncing, its when i'm recovering (i try and wait for an ivy to finish an uair and she randomly jumps away from me and into the attack), doing a getup attack (she dashes forward when i press A), not returning to me (she sometimes will just stand there and not do anything until i come and get her), or getting killed at stupid percents (killed by uncharged bowser fsmash on FD at 29%).

my statement about having the opponent fear her in vBrawl was the 0-death. no alts (thnk you very much >_>) take away that option and remove one of their biggest threats.

 

[grim mouser]

I think FF/moving SHL would be great. Just tossing in my opinion.

 

[Plum]

no, they don't have 100% guarantied kill anymore.

If Popo somehow lost the ability to throw the opponent into a guaranteed charged Nana smash at kill percents then that is news to me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

If Popo somehow lost the ability to throw the opponent into a guaranteed charged Nana smash at kill percents then that is news to me.

thats only as much a guarantied kill as landing a smash with any other character. if you're at a high enough percent that a usmash will kill you then you're gonna be dead even without the grab.

edit: besides, its not a 100% kill. otherwise i could just grab you at over 100% and just usmash to kill you. doesn't work until you actually get the other person into the kill percent range to begin with.

 

[Deleted member]

I think FF/moving SHL would be great. Just tossing in my unsolicited, unjustified, and unnecessary opinion.

FTFY. Seriously guys, if you're going to post, do it properly.

(i'm neither for or against any changes to Falco..I just hate seeing people say "I support this" without actually saying why)

 

[timothyung]

thats only as much a guarantied kill as landing a smash with any other character. if you're at a high enough percent that a usmash will kill you then you're gonna be dead even without the grab.

edit: besides, its not a 100% kill. otherwise i could just grab you at over 100% and just usmash to kill you. doesn't work until you actually get the other person into the kill percent range to begin with.

Did you really read his post? Fully charged smash is a lot different from a non-charged one. And his 100% is certainly not referring to the damage; it's the probability. He means if you get a grab at killing percentage, you have a guaranteed kill, aka having a chance of 100% to KO.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Did you really read his post? Fully charged smash is a lot different from a non-charged one. And his 100% is certainly not referring to the damage; it's the probability. He means if you get a grab at killing percentage, you have a guaranteed kill, aka having a chance of 100% to KO.

kill percent for a fully charged usmash starts at around 150%. uncharged at around 200%. if a person i within that range of damage the chances of them surviving much long even without ICs getting grab -> charged usmash. and its only a 100% kill within that range assuming the ICs can get the grab in the first place.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

In Melee, Falcos often didn't try for SHDL...

Since when can Melee Falco SHDL?
Anyway, aside from that, I pretty much agree with everything else you said about Falco's SHDL in that post. Short-Hopped Fast-Fall Single-Lasers would shorten the duration between each low-firing laser, meaning it becomes better when dealing with short characters, but it wouldn't be as rapid as both lasers of his previous SHDL, so tall characters won't be put at a huge disadvantage (a lot of them have enough problems with being more easily comboed). Not only that, but it adds more skill in knowing when to fast-fall, so you can adjust the height of the lasers according to the tertain, etc., instead of just spaming both lasers of his SHDL, regardless of the situation.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

EDIT: double post, my bad 8[

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Can u tell me why falco deserves shdl and ivy dont?? Considering the fact that falco's travel longer and hits harder and also can't be broken up??

because falco preferes the air
ivy is a plant, plants are supposed to be stuck in the ground ivy got lucky with the leg deal, dont beg for more

hits harder? falco's does 2%.....im pretty sure Ivy does more. correct me if im wrong
but seriously... leave falco alone, its not that bad, her got his lazorz nerfed to its not that bad : P

bring up another subject besides ness, falco, ivy, and IC
i havent heard any discussion about characters like Sonic for over a hundred pages

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's not-going-into-freefall after aerial side B is not that good.

Yes, it prevents her from dying outright if she happens to use it in a bad spot offstage. However, the lag after an aerial detonation is so heavy that she'll often have to Up+B back onto the stage with an aerial landing, which is the most punishable form of Up+B. It keeps her from falling lamely to her death but also puts her in a very disadvantageous spot.

Yes, she can use it while recovering from high to protect her and get a little distance. Again though, the lag makes it a rather unsafe option. Unless Zelda gets to effectively detonate the fireball very far away from her, it's unsafe/punishable, and at those distances Din's isn't a threat to you, either.

No, she cannot airstall worth a crap with aerial Din's, again because of detonation lag and her lack of ability to get to high altitudes on her own.

There's really nothing about the mechanic that makes it good, on the grounds that Din's Fire itself isn't that good an attack, and is worse than usual when used in the air.

 

[jalued]

basically i feel that fox is really good, but not that interesting to play. dair is such a solid and safe move to spam and seems to form the basis of fox's gameplay (as well as nairs) , there isnt really any depth at all available for fox.

i have a few ideas to try and make him more challenging to play (of course would have to nerf other stuff)

1) changing the angle of uptilt from around 100 to either 50-60 or 120-130 so that its harder to follow up with other moves- so that it either can combo into a fair or a bair but make it difficult for it to combo into down or upair.

2) give him back JSC so that he can jump out of shine (wouldnt allow for waveshining etc, but would boost his edge guarding game, mindgames etc). could possibly give him alot more unforeseen options

3) possibly reduce end lag on his upthrow so it can really combo

4) increase the frame window for canceling his side B (atm i feel it isnt responsive enough)

5) give him SHFFL

of course if he got all these changes he would prob be god tier, so would have to give him some nerfs, maybe reduce BKB on bair, upsmash and upair(thats completely up for discussion). just feel fox deserves to be more interesting, he feels like the MK of brawl+ now (easy to pick up and easy to win with- no offense to squirtleknight players ofc)

 

[5ive]

I would love to see a form of JC Shine just to test out. Would it be possible through coding?

And what do you mean give him SHFFL... everyone has a SHFFL. Of course the "L" now stands for the Auto Cancel.

 

[timothyung]

I would love to see a form of JC Shine just to test out. Would it be possible through coding?

And what do you mean give him SHFFL... everyone has a SHFFL. Of course the "L" now stands for the Auto Cancel.

L for Laser I think.
JC Shine is definitely possible: see dash canceling

 

[Perfect Chaos]

because falco preferes the air
ivy is a plant, plants are supposed to be stuck in the ground ivy got lucky with the leg deal, dont beg for more

LOL Best explaination...EVAR!

i havent heard any discussion about characters like Sonic for over a hundred pages

Hm, what to change about Sonic....hmmm.... Sonic, when he runs, should create a strong wind effect that pushes everyone away!!! It fits his character, afterall!!!!!

Spoiler

I hope no one actually took that seriously...

I've noticed that I've never really complained about any changes made to Sonic...and never complained about wanting specific buffs, despite me being a Sonic main. I guess I just don't want to sound whiny... I just take the changes made to him and deal with it. The WBR knows what they are doing, and they've done a fine job with the changes to many characters, including Sonic.
People just seem to complain too much these days about their mains...

As for Fox, I agree that he is a very shallow character. D-air is definitely way too safe. If you miss, you can often just run away and try again some other time.
But I don't think Fox should have a jump-cancel-able shine again... It wouldn't help his edgeguard that much, since he gets out of shine pretty fast when using it in the air, already. You can just shine-spike, turn around during the shine, then jump when the shine ends, almost as quickly. The only thing this would do it make it safer to spam shines on the stage (sort of like the Ness PSI Magnet from the previous nightly). But regardless, I don't think there's a way to make the shine jump-cancel-able in the air at the current moment. The best they can do at the current moment is do to the shine what they did with Ness's PSI Magnet, but that would just mean that he has OoS options for grounded (and only for grounded) shines (an unnecessary buff, IMO), but would most likely lose his air stall (due to the same reason that Ness's PSI Magnet lost it). And him falling a good distance from an aerial shine would just make his edgeguarding game worse, if not making the shine-spike almost useless (sort of like how Wolf's shine-spike is).

 

[shanus]

basically i feel that fox is really good, but not that interesting to play. dair is such a solid and safe move to spam and seems to form the basis of fox's gameplay (as well as nairs) , there isnt really any depth at all available for fox.

i have a few ideas to try and make him more challenging to play (of course would have to nerf other stuff)

1) changing the angle of uptilt from around 100 to either 50-60 or 120-130 so that its harder to follow up with other moves- so that it either can combo into a fair or a bair but make it difficult for it to combo into down or upair.

2) give him back JSC so that he can jump out of shine (wouldnt allow for waveshining etc, but would boost his edge guarding game, mindgames etc). could possibly give him alot more unforeseen options

3) possibly reduce end lag on his upthrow so it can really combo

4) increase the frame window for canceling his side B (atm i feel it isnt responsive enough)

5) give him SHFFL

of course if he got all these changes he would prob be god tier, so would have to give him some nerfs, maybe reduce BKB on bair, upsmash and upair(thats completely up for discussion). just feel fox deserves to be more interesting, he feels like the MK of brawl+ now (easy to pick up and easy to win with- no offense to squirtleknight players ofc)

Heh, I figured out a way to give him JC shine, but I promised I wouldn't tell the world

We've been scratching our head for a while with fox because his combos do lack variety, but at the same time, he is one of the few characters who just about every move (barring dtilt) has utility. Its a delicate rope to walk that doesn't necessarily need walking.

 

[Nybb]

I play Falco a lot, and would likely call him a secondary (and a main in vBrawl), and I wouldn't mind trying out Melee-style lasers. As long as they then got a damage buff (back up to 3%?). The total laser output would most certainly not be half that of SHDL. It would probably be more like 2/3rds. In fact, if it was a 2/3 ratio, the total potential damage output would be the same (2 * 3% = 3 * 2%).

It would also give the Falco more control over how he locates his lasers. For example, he would be able to shoot 4 low SHLs in a row that could all hit Kirby, as opposed to SHDLing 3 times, shooting 6 lasers total, and only having three of them hit Kirby. All it does is take off the "easy mode"... with SHDL, there is no reason to not SHDL and the higher laser stops Kirby from jumping. With SHL, if you think Kirby will jump, you have to manually shoot your next laser higher. You get an element of prediction, but there is also more reward in the example above as you could hit Kirby with 4 SHLs = 12% damage if you predicted him correctly. With SHDLs, you just spam them, and if Kirby jumps or doesn't, he will get hit by 3-4 lasers = 6-8%.

I don't really see it as a buff of a nerf, just a change. He would be slightly less **** against large characters, but slightly better against small ones. It makes the Falco work a little harder, but there is a slightly higher reward if he is successful. I think that Falco would be more fun this way personally.

Of course, this is assuming that SHL are fast-fallable and DIable and get a damage buff.

 

[jalued]

L for Laser I think.
JC Shine is definitely possible: see dash canceling

yeah i was meaning laser lol and what is that u say shanus?? a joke or for real?

 

[jalued]

yeah i was meaning laser lol and what is that u say shanus?? a joke or for real?

LOL Best explaination...EVAR!
Hm, what to change about Sonic....hmmm.... Sonic, when he runs, should create a strong wind effect that pushes everyone away!!! It fits his character, afterall!!!!!

Spoiler

I hope no one actually took that seriously...

As for Fox, I agree that he is a very shallow character. D-air is definitely way too safe. If you miss, you can often just run away and try again some other time.
But I don't think Fox should have a jump-cancel-able shine again... It wouldn't help his edgeguard that much, since he gets out of shine pretty fast when using it in the air, already. You can just shine-spike, turn around during the shine, then jump when the shine ends, almost as quickly. The only thing this would do it make it safer to spam shines on the stage (sort of like the Ness PSI Magnet from the previous nightly). But regardless, I don't think there's a way to make the shine jump-cancel-able in the air at the current moment. The best they can do at the current moment is do to the shine what they did with Ness's PSI Magnet, but that would just mean that he has OoS options for grounded (and only for grounded) shines (an unnecessary buff, IMO), but would most likely lose his air stall (due to the same reason that Ness's PSI Magnet lost it). And him falling a good distance from an aerial shine would just make his edgeguarding game worse, if not making the shine-spike almost useless (sort of like how Wolf's shine-spike is).

i was meaning once we have a code so that he can jump cancel his shine on the ground and in the air. also is it possible to remove the SA frames or would that be strange?

double post sorry, im a bit confused how to put all this into the other post... sorry shanus

 

[shanus]

well the technique I figured out was as perfect chaos lined out akin to ness' psi magnet.

SO the JC shine would only work on the ground, but it should be possible to remove the options to roll out of it, etc.

What was I was thinking was to shrink the hitbox size of dair so that SDI could be more prevalent from it. So then it would require better spacing, and then also reduce the BKB on it a bit so that utilt and upsmash wouldn't be so easy to time so you would need to cancel it a bit better. However, since shine is faster, I thought with a JC shine, this change would make for more diverse combos akin to dair shien JC to other stuff, etc.

However, this stuff was all preliminary thoughts and have had literally -zero- testing and speaks nothing for other WBR members opinions also. It was simply ideas that spurred to mind.

 

[5ive]

I think that trade off is worth trying. JC Shine is too tasty to just forget about.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ivy doesn't need the leaf buff (and I don't want it to ever happen), but you guys don't have to be a ***** to the people that DO want it.

And yeah, re-adding JSC would ruin Shine-stalling, which is the most prominent use of Fox's reflector. Although it would be a nice tradeoff for ground comboes.

 

[jalued]

well the technique I figured out was as perfect chaos lined out akin to ness' psi magnet.

SO the JC shine would only work on the ground, but it should be possible to remove the options to roll out of it, etc.

What was I was thinking was to shrink the hitbox size of dair so that SDI could be more prevalent from it. So then it would require better spacing, and then also reduce the BKB on it a bit so that utilt and upsmash wouldn't be so easy to time so you would need to cancel it a bit better. However, since shine is faster, I thought with a JC shine, this change would make for more diverse combos akin to dair shien JC to other stuff, etc.

However, this stuff was all preliminary thoughts and have had literally -zero- testing and speaks nothing for other WBR members opinions also. It was simply ideas that spurred to mind.

as long as JCshine is back id b happy. sounds good to me

what about angle to uptilt change? it would make sense with the animation plus, falco AND wolf'd uptilts both go 90degrees ish like fox, so would be nice to have some variety

And yeah, re-adding JSC would ruin Shine-stalling, which is the most prominent use of Fox's reflector.

its also one of the stupidest uses for any special move (stalling). he could definitely live without it

OMG i managed to do it!!

 

[5ive]

And yeah, re-adding JSC would ruin Shine-stalling, which is the most prominent use of Fox's reflector.

How so? If you want to shine stall, just don't jump out of the shine. Unless adding the JC Shine has properties that remove the stop in momentum, shine stalling would still be possible. amirite?

I think jump cancel shine would add needed depth to a character often criticized for lacking variety. Let's try it

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I edited my post., guys. hehe :D

 

[jalued]

And yeah, re-adding JSC would ruin Shine-stalling, which is the most prominent use of Fox's reflector. Although it would be a nice tradeoff for ground comboes.

makes sense, falco loves the air, fox loves the ground, and wolf is umm... the illegitimate brother who spams

and omg 5ive... we're actually AGREEING on something, lets carry on like this lol

 

[timothyung]

Just do it when a new code is out which lets you edit what move can be canceled by which move. Then we can just edit it to make a good JCShine, maybe PSI Shield, and taunt-canceling

 

[SymphonicSage12]

makes sense, falco loves the air, fox loves the ground, and wolf is umm... the illegitimate brother who spams

and omg 5ive... we're actually AGREEING on something, lets carry on like this lol

Lol I interpreted that as "Wolf was a mistake."

..If ya know what I mean

 

[jalued]

Lol I interpreted that as "Wolf was a mistake."

..If ya know what I mean

mummy falco cheated on daddy fox with a gopher and wolf was born? yeah sounds bout right, anyway, back to fox getting jcs lol

 

[shanus]

don't get all excited about it, I just listed a few ideas

 

[jalued]

don't get all excited about it, I just listed a few ideas

yeah i know, i have some of my own ideas as well. i just hadnt thought of urs and i like but also want an uptilt angle change and for him to be able to shorthop fastfall lasers

 

[Kuga]

Jesus Christ,if you guys want Fox JCS,he will lose the great part of his Dair(like shanus said),it will still combo into Usmash/Utilt,but a bit harder.
Fox JCS was his sign in Melee,now his Dair/Utilt is his Sign in Brawl.
Now,if you want his JCS without Melee(witch is not possible) Wavedash for a worse Utilt/Dair.Well,thats sux >.<
Course the people says he is top five with Marth,MK,Squirtle,Kirby,but he is the Only FAST FALLER,who's get screwed by CG/Combos,and a easy gimpable recovery.
I Disagree about the changes.

 

[jalued]

Jesus Christ,if you guys want Fox JCS,he will lose the great part of his Dair(like shanus said),it will still combo into Usmash/Utilt,but a bit harder.
Fox JCS was his sign in Melee,now his Dair/Utilt is his Sign in Brawl.
Now,if you want his JCS without Melee(witch is not possible) Wavedash for a worse Utilt/Dair.Well,thats sux >.<
Course the people says he is top five with Marth,MK,Squirtle,Kirby,but he is the Only FAST FALLER,who's get screwed by CG/Combos,and a easy gimpable recovery.
I Disagree about the changes.

that is an unfair comparison. fox in melee was focused around waveshining, which wouldnt b possible in brawl+ due to no MAD, if this was implimented in brawl+ it would have a totally different feel than melee fox's shine

the difference between his sign in melee and his sign in brawl is that the brawl one is dull repetitive. we are not asking for fox's waveshining to be back, it will never be back. we just feel that his shine should have a bit more depth than just shinestalling

 

[GHNeko]

This is what I think about Falco's SHDL:

It's too easy to do for anyone. I don't even use Falco and I was doing it just fine like any Falco main would. The only thing is, I suck as Falco in B+/vBrawl but in any case, it's still too easy regardless. Also, the most Falco can do with SHDL is camp with it and maybe use it to approach as well as shut down approaches. Other than those three things, it's certainly not a good combo starter in its current state, and personally, I could see Falco gaining more from SHL (with DI and FF on it of course) than from SHDL.

In Melee, Falcos often didn't try for SHDL, doesn't mean it wasn't the best option then because it was but SHL was more prominently used (and still is in Melee). SHL in Melee allowed for strings while the current SHDL can't really do that... all it can do is shut down approaches and be used to get away from someone (camping). I mea sure you can probably SHDL > Usmash or SHDL > Dair if you're lucky but, that's not really going to lead into anything else. SHL > Dair would probably actually be a better option than just doing SHDL and hoping for a Usmash or hoping for that Dair.

In other words, I feel that if we were to make the change, it would add depth to Falco and some more skill into using him than what his SHDL currently provides. I don't think he needs it but, if we were to implement it I'd be fine with it as I understand how important a FF Diable SHL would be to Falco (being that I used him in Melee and SHL'd as much as I could).

Just my thoughts.

As easy as SHDL may be for anyone to do, the SHDL is not a tactic that completely shuts down talls/heavies. talls/heavies need to take their resources, use and abuse them against Falcos. Player's dont have to chose heavies/talls against Falcos, but if they choose to do so, they need to maximize stage CPs and abuse their most viable tactics against the worst possible kind of Falco, a SHDL happy one. And even against a SHDL happy falco, we have plenty of stage CPs that can at least force the match up to a 40:60 Falco match up.

When SHDL forces a 70:30 match up when factoring characters AND the best possible CP against falco, then there might be a problem.

Brawl+ is heading towards a direction where you cannot win with a single character without being significantnly better than your opponent. Because of that, it would be nothing less than wise to pick up a secondary, even if you main Marth/Snake/MK.

 

[5ive]

Jesus Christ,if you guys want Fox JCS,he will lose the great part of his Dair(like shanus said),it will still combo into Usmash/Utilt,but a bit harder.
Fox JCS was his sign in Melee,now his Dair/Utilt is his Sign in Brawl.
Now,if you want his JCS without Melee(witch is not possible) Wavedash for a worse Utilt/Dair.Well,thats sux >.<
Course the people says he is top five with Marth,MK,Squirtle,Kirby,but he is the Only FAST FALLER,who's get screwed by CG/Combos,and a easy gimpable recovery.
I Disagree about the changes.

hmmm, something about all your posts annoy me. Really annoy me. Don't be so hostile, it's just an idea worth trying out.

Also:

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

 

[Alphatron]

*awaits depth to be added to Game and Watch*


Kidding. But my only beef with JCS is that it will hurt his offstage shine spike. Not seeing why he needs SHFFL at all though.

 

[Shell]

Why would it hurt his offstage spike...?

If the damage were decreased for less shieldstun, there's no reason we wouldn't up the KB to compensate. I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea from. If aerial JC shine got worked out, it would make shine-spiking even faster and safer, in fact.

 

[Alphatron]

I should have been clearer. If this is implemented in the same way that Ness' PSI magnet was made cancellable, then wouldn't the downtime on the aerial version be increased?

 

[jalued]

I should have been clearer. If this is implemented in the same way that Ness' PSI magnet was made cancellable, then wouldn't the downtime on the aerial version be increased?

thats why i hope there is/will be a code whereby it'll work on land and in the air

 

[grim mouser]

Also: (Commandment)

What if you don't believe in God? ;P

Anyway, I'm curious as to how well JCS would work with Brawl's shine mechanics. Shine isn't 1 frame anymore, so would you be able to jump out immediately? Would the frames have to be changed? Depends on how the JC would work, I guess.