Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Perfect Chaos]

You wouldn't be able to jump out of it before the shine comes out, since you wouldn't be in that jump-cancel-able shine"state" yet; it's just like how Ness's PSI Magnet was.

 

[grim mouser]

I haven't read how the Magnet cancel works yet. =P

 

[Yingyay]

Wanna know why all these character arguments are coming up about falco? Its his utilt speed up. He comboed fine without it. Sure all the Falco mains were cool with it once it was "OFFERED" but who wouldnt want their main to get better? I'd love it if Sheik had her tilt-lock if her needles were made weaker as a trade-off. But check this out. If sheik's tilt lock (the vbrawl version) was brought back in exchange for her needles getting weaker it would be a overall "BUFF" and overall buffs arent tradeoffs. So all you Falco mains (including Orca) think about it when people start complaining about Falco's lasers or when the utilt thing is brought back up.

Come to think of it, where's Marth's tradeoffs? I for one know first hand that he wasnt broken but he was nerfed to disney land (not saying he's complete *** now) but yea. What did he gain from getting a **** load weaker?

 

[shanus]

You wouldn't be able to jump out of it before the shine comes out, since you wouldn't be in that jump-cancel-able shine"state" yet; it's just like how Ness's PSI Magnet was.

I can actually do more I think to make it a fair bit better than that.

 

[Yingyay]

To add on to my post above (that will get ignored like everything I say)
Marth's tipper should have "Heart" effects too >=3
Sheik's tipped usmash should have heart effects >=3
Captain Falcon's knee should have 1000 hitlag added to it. >=3

 

[MK26]

hearts are an animation, not an effect, sadly.

Also, any feedback on the SSS? Any at all?

 

[Nybb]

Wanna know why all these character arguments are coming up about falco? Its his utilt speed up. He comboed fine without it. Sure all the Falco mains were cool with it once it was "OFFERED" but who wouldnt want their main to get better? I'd love it if Sheik had her tilt-lock if her needles were made weaker as a trade-off. But check this out. If sheik's tilt lock (the vbrawl version) was brought back in exchange for her needles getting weaker it would be a overall "BUFF" and overall buffs arent tradeoffs. So all you Falco mains (including Orca) think about it when people start complaining about Falco's lasers or when the utilt thing is brought back up.

But he didn't really combo fine without it. Before it was sped up it really didn't combo except into itself sometimes. I'm pretty sure it's been stated most of the other times that this topic has come up: the utilt was only given enough speed so that it could lead into moves besides itself. If you're going to complain about utilts, complain about Squirtle's that can combo into itself like six times.

To add on to my post above (that will get ignored like everything I say)
Marth's tipper should have "Heart" effects too >=3
Sheik's tipped usmash should have heart effects >=3
Captain Falcon's knee should have 1000 hitlag added to it. >=3

I think shanus already confirmed that hearts are not an effect. They're just an animation on Peach's u-tilt.

 

[matt4300]

Wanna know why all these character arguments are coming up about falco? Its his utilt speed up. He comboed fine without it. Sure all the Falco mains were cool with it once it was "OFFERED" but who wouldnt want their main to get better? I'd love it if Sheik had her tilt-lock if her needles were made weaker as a trade-off. But check this out. If sheik's tilt lock (the vbrawl version) was brought back in exchange for her needles getting weaker it would be a overall "BUFF" and overall buffs arent tradeoffs. So all you Falco mains (including Orca) think about it when people start complaining about Falco's lasers or when the utilt thing is brought back up.

Come to think of it, where's Marth's tradeoffs? I for one know first hand that he wasnt broken but he was nerfed to disney land (not saying he's complete *** now) but yea. What did he gain from getting a **** load weaker?

Yeh I agree with the whole utilt thing. I don't really debate much anymore since link got so badass (thanks shanus! cape, SP, me ect) but if I were to argue in this falco debate it would be because of his utilt buff. He really dident need it at all, and it makes the already bad matchups with my mains (who are combo/lazer/gimp bait. Link/Bowser/Ness/D3) that much harder. He had plenty of follow ups before it ... now its just an easy button. He didnet deserve it in the first place.

Marth was nerfed because he was too good ... chars like him and meta dont get tradeoffs (though marth boards are requesting trades now). Thats for chars that theres nothing wrong with, but there mains want more depth. Falco's lazer damage nerf was a trade off for shine change... His utilt was a trade off for what?

EDIT: ah.... so im guessing the utilt was sped up just enough for followups? no more? if so than atleast reduce the damage 9 to 6 or 7, up the base, lower the growth.So that it cant combo into itself. The speed wouldnet be a problem if he didnet have such a huge hitbox on it @_@... Oh god dont get into squirtle.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Captain Falcon's knee should have 1000 hitlag added to it. >=3

Why? So you have like 20 seconds to stop mid game, drink a nice thing of tea, pick up your controller and STILL have time to DI properly? Adding hitlag just makes things more easily survivable.

Though it is cool.

 

[Yingyay]

But he didn't really combo fine without it. Before it was sped up it really didn't combo except into itself sometimes. I'm pretty sure it's been stated most of the other times that this topic has come up: the utilt was only given enough speed so that it could lead into moves besides itself. If you're going to complain about utilts, complain about Squirtle's that can combo into itself like six times.



I think shanus already confirmed that hearts are not an effect. They're just an animation on Peach's u-tilt.

I thought something was gonna be done so that squirtle isnt so ****. He's small, fast, and his vertical ko'ing power is pretty insane.

Tell me this tho. Why does falco need a follow up after utilt? He's not a combo character.
Dthrow - dash attack works
Dair can pop-up
DACUS
Bair can even combo when short-hopped
(While i dont have a god-like Falco. I've at least had experience playing him and playing against him to know how well he can combo)

Why? So you have like 20 seconds to stop mid game, drink a nice thing of tea, pick up your controller and STILL have time to DI properly? Adding hitlag just makes things more easily survivable.

Though it is cool.

Its captain falcon. Nuff said. The falcon punch leads into another falcon punch until the wii freezes. Plus you can knee after it. Depth ftw

 

[Alphatron]

Why? So you have like 20 seconds to stop mid game, drink a nice thing of tea, pick up your controller and STILL have time to DI properly? Adding hitlag just makes things more easily survivable.

Though it is cool.

Better than this, the knee should just cause your wii to freeze, kinda like how Cpt. Falcon's final smash did in the 7/10 build.

Anyway, King Dedede is pretty friggin bad in comparison to the rest of the cast imo. I'm gonna play as him more before I say much. But from I can see, he's worse off than Marth, Meta, and Snake when it comes to transitioning to brawl+.

 

[Yingyay]

Better than this, the knee should just cause your wii to freeze, kinda like how Cpt. Falcon's final smash did in the 7/10 build.

Anyway, King Dedede is pretty friggin bad in comparison to the rest of the cast imo. I'm gonna play as him more before I say much. But from I can see, he's worse off than Marth, Meta, and Snake when it comes to transitioning to brawl+.

Yeah I agree. Without chain-grabs DDD is much a pansy. Or maybe people need to learn how to play him the right way.....as soon as we figure out what the right way is now.

 

[Revven]

DDD's main approaches are going to be grabbing and Dair. Dair actually can lead into his grab at early %s which can then be used for Uthrow > Nair or Uthrow > Fair. DDD isn't BAD now, he used to be BAD, but he's decent at most. We have plans, we just can't implement them like we would want to...

 

[_clinton]

I'm pretty sure Ness is fine the way he is. Wasn't Link finished?

Oh like you guys aren't perfect too! Fact is, we complain because we felt the right to do so. We were childish, annoying and uncooperative. At least MOST OF THE NESS MAINS were civil. Only a few complained (like me)

Stop stereotyping the Ness mains.

He wasn't insulting the Ness mains with that statement...he was just talking about how people have changed a lot of characters games and was trying to use that to help put back in Ivysaur's double leaf...recovery wasn't the main thing it helped with Ness IMO anyway. Unlimited PKT1 added to the pressure Ness could put on his foes...which IMO was great...but still its not like it made him ungimpable...it just prevented dumb gimps from happening (for example a fly guy stealing your thunder)

Being able to add to the pressure Ness has with chasing foes is a lot better than him being safer at hitting foes on the ground with PKT2 IMO as well (which is what you gave by giving him a 5x ending lag speed buff) but whatever...

Also...really...how can you be fine with Ness' unlimited PKT1 gone or some of the other stuff with Ness in general? God...the Ness set they have right now isn't as good compared to the one they had before overall IMO...

Anyway...here is a list of things I don't really like compared to what was before in older builds to vBrawl besides the Unlimited PKT1:

1. Adding to the end time of PK Flash made it a fake out move again for Brawl+ (because like before in vBrawl to Brawl+...it sort of lost that fake out trick it had because of Brawl+'s game being faster than vBrawl's) and adding to the range made it easier to smack people who's recoveries where sort of open to it when it was normal...god it was way better than using a push from PSI Magnet IMO...I really can't see why you took out the recovery time animation but left in the hitbox animation...
2. Utilt still has issues...and what is the point of adding to the speed of it if you are going to take away the set ups it has from vBrawl? A pivot grab and/or adding at least 2 utilts to a foe at low % was actually a nice reason to want to use the move...speed wasn't even the main issue with the move anyway as well...
3. I still have issues with the "Zap Jump" and how it doesn't do much to help Ness recovery and how it takes away a ok spacing option overall...but whatever

Of course...Ness isn't the only character that I think has issues from him going over from vBrawl to Brawl+...

Samus being unable to fire out 2 missiles in her short hop and have 0 landing lag from that while you have to deal with 2 missiles and her coming close to you is something that annoys me as well kind of...but at least that is easy to fix...

 

[Alphatron]

Whoops. My fault. Cpt. Falcon's final smash freezes in this one for me too.>_>

 

[Blinds]

So just got the latest nightly build... And is it just me or was Pit's dtilt meteor sweetspot still at his feet instead of the tip? It doesn't say so on the changelist, but it seems to be back there. Or did I read the 7/20 changelist wrong?

 

[Revven]

So just got the latest nightly build... And is it just me or was Pit's dtilt meteor sweetspot still at his feet instead of the tip? It doesn't say so on the changelist, but it seems to be back there. Or did I read the 7/20 changelist wrong?

Hitbox shift mod still isn't working yet, so the change isn't exactly "there" yet.

 

[PKNintendo]

1. Adding to the end time of PK Flash made it a fake out move again for Brawl+ (because like before in vBrawl to Brawl+...it sort of lost that fake out trick it had because of Brawl+'s game being faster than vBrawl's) and adding to the range made it easier to smack people who's recoveries where sort of open to it when it was normal...god it was way better than using a push from PSI Magnet IMO...I really can't see why you took out the recovery time animation but left in the hitbox animation...
2. Utilt still has issues...and what is the point of adding to the speed of it if you are going to take away the set ups it has from vBrawl? A pivot grab and/or adding at least 2 utilts to a foe at low % was actually a nice reason to want to use the move...speed wasn't even the main issue with the move anyway as well...
3. I still have issues with the "Zap Jump" and how it doesn't do much to help Ness recovery and how it takes away a ok spacing option overall...but whatever

1. PK flash is supposed to be an edge guard move. It's not to be used to fake people on the ground. (Although it makes a cheap parlor trick)

The magnet push is another option.
Another option>Nothing

Also, it can ruin some recoveries (like Falco's) and upon contact with Ness sometimes flies a good distance.

2. Utilt seems fine to me. Juggles pretty **** good.

3. Zap Fairing is better than zap jumping.


IMO Ness is fine the way he is. Any more buffs or nerfs would could cause a huge debate.

 

[Deleted member]

A while ago the WBR said that they agreed with me that Ness didn't need much help, yet now we see Ness getting nerfed because of all the help the noob Nesses asked for. I've said for a while that the only change I want to see is to the yoyo - don't change the hitbox, just let me charge the **** thing off the ledge

 

[CountKaiser]

Yes, I'm sure Simna was a noob ness. >_>

 

[Cero]

75m's slot on the random stage switch was switched with Wifi Waiting Room, right?

Did that change since the last build? Because, now it just sends me to 75m.

Is it still possible to put Wifi Waiting Room in the randoms?

 

[PKNintendo]

A while ago the WBR said that they agreed with me that Ness didn't need much help, yet now we see Ness getting nerfed because of all the help the noob Nesses asked for. I've said for a while that the only change I want to see is to the yoyo - don't change the hitbox, just let me charge the **** thing off the ledge

They were going to nerf him anyway. Fair was being cheap. Everyone can post DeLorted. Noobs and vets alike. Everyone can give out their opinion too.

Ness got buffed in this build, and they removed some OP factors. (fair, dtilt)

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, I'm sure Simna was a noob ness. >_>

He was practically recruited because of all the people whining about how he sucked. His initial buffs weren't that bad (and frankly, I guess fairly logical) but it got out of hand.

Basically, Ness is a prime example of how too many cooks spoil the broth. Yes, everyone can post. Yes, everyone can provide feedback. But there's only so much before Brawl+ as a whole gets bogged down with too many requests, edits, tweaks, reverts, what have you. It's getting ridiculous. Brawl+ is better than this.

 

[Yingyay]

Basically, Ness is a prime example of how too many cooks spoil the broth. Yes, everyone can post. Yes, everyone can provide feedback. But there's only so much before Brawl+ as a whole gets bogged down with too many requests, edits, tweaks, reverts, what have you. It's getting ridiculous. Brawl+ is better than this.

I've been looking for a way to say this without accidentially insulting people.

 

[Deleted member]

If it takes a little flaming to cut down what could be incredibly detrimental to this game, then so be it.

 

[PKNintendo]

I disagree with that.
Shanus and CO fought against Ness mains and won. He won us over with logic without flaming or insults.

Ness and Brawl + being ruined? Ness was Overpowered in the old nightly set. Our complaining had nothing to do with nerfing the guy. The new sets change that and add an interesting new ability to his psi magnet. If that's not depth I don't know what is. They also removed some overpowering factors.

(Downtilt was nerfed too, Fair etc)

 

[Cero]

75m's slot on the random stage switch was switched with Wifi Waiting Room, right?

Did that change since the last build? Because, now it just sends me to 75m.

Is it still possible to put Wifi Waiting Room in the randoms?

Simple question, guys.

 

[CountKaiser]

He was practically recruited because of all the people whining about how he sucked. His initial buffs weren't that bad (and frankly, I guess fairly logical) but it got out of hand.

Even if he was brought on by several others, the buffs he made were all his idea, and he made these buffs because he believed that Ness was severely lacking. No one else put that notion in his head.

Also, his changes were far from logical. While the intent was there, and the intent was good, he went about it quite the wrong way. Fair was too large, the speedups to pk flash made no sense, as well as the speed up to pkt, he said himself that the JC psi magnet only benefited 2 matchups, and if this wasn't bad enough, this was his set toned down from the wbr. Originally, his fair had the range of Ike's fair.

@Cero: WWR is now it's own stage on the Stage select screen. It's on the brawl stages screen, and it shows up as Menu.

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree with that.
Shanus and CO fought against Ness mains and won. He won us over with logic without flaming or insults.

Ness and Brawl + being ruined? Ness was Overpowered in the old nightly set. Our complaining had nothing to do with nerfing the guy. The new sets change that and add an interesting new ability to his psi magnet. If that's not depth I don't know what is. They also removed some overpowering factors.

(Downtilt was nerfed too, Fair etc)

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

CountKaiser, when I say I agreed with Simna's initial buffs, I meant the ones regarding strictly to PK Thunders 1 and 2. The rest was just pork. (and to be fair I had no idea of them until I saw the new nightly posted.)

 

[GHNeko]

ATTN PLUSSERS: Take some time to get together with the mains of your desired character and release test builds within your little circle.

**** works wonders imo.

 

[PKNintendo]

ATTN PLUSSERS: Take some time to get together with the mains of your desired character and release test builds within your little circle.

**** works wonders imo.

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[Cero]

@Cero: WWR is now it's own stage on the Stage select screen. It's on the brawl stages screen, and it shows up as Menu.

I know that. I'm talking about on the random stage switch. Which stage do I choose to have Wifi Waiting Room as a random?

 

[GuruKid]

ATTN PLUSSERS: Take some time to get together with the mains of your desired character and release test builds within your little circle.

**** works wonders imo.

No one mains Pokemon Trainer.

 

[CountKaiser]

Are you being sarcastic?

I don't think he is.

I know that. I'm talking about on the random stage switch. Which stage do I choose to have Wifi Waiting Room as a random?

Oh, in that case, I don't know.

 

[Cero]

Seriously? Then, is there anyone here who does know?

 

[GHNeko]

Are you being sarcastic?

No, I'm not. I've been getting opinions from mario mains and mario secondaries about my mario test builds soley for his utilt. I'm going to continue testing, getting feedback, and revising until I come up with something reasonable the present the changes to WBR with testimony from testers, reasons, data for WBR to test, then try to get that into a nightly for EVERYONE to test and all the while continue to revise Mario's utilt to make it more satisfactory. I have around 8-10 test builds factoring a cominbation of changes from an extremely small range. 3 degrees (77-75), 3 BKB settings (33-35), 1 KBG setting (120) and 4 frame speed changes (5-10 frames cut off from end lag)

And I am STILL testing and releasing for Mario mains.

This is what people SHOULD be doing.

No one mains Pokemon Trainer.

Go to another reigion, ******.

I don't think he is.

No I am not.


Oh, in that case, I don't know.

 

[Cero]

I'm just going to assume that having Wifi Waiting Room as a random is impossible in this build...

Also, I noticed that when I press random on the stage select screen, I sometimes get sent to 75m... And, I'm 100% sure I have 75m toggled off in the random stage switch. Is this a glitch with the custom stage select screen?

 

[Yingyay]

What we should be doing is fixing what needs to be fixed. Instead of constant tweaking past the point of neccessity.

 

[GHNeko]

What we should be doing is fixing what needs to be fixed. Instead of constant tweaking past the point of neccessity.

Attention to detail really matters imo.

Leave the major things up to WBR. If you want to help, go about testing your own things down to the wire.

If people have the time to type up wall of texts to ***** and complain about changes they dont approve of or want to be added, they have the time to learn, test, and retest til they get something they feel is right, and spread it around.

I spent hours tweaking that utilt and I've gotten nothing but positive feed back and Im still not done with it until its fair and balanced and optimal

 

[Alphatron]

I know that. I'm talking about on the random stage switch. Which stage do I choose to have Wifi Waiting Room as a random?

75m. Only it still has a chance to actually be 75m instead of wfr.

And Ness dtilt was never OP. But I want a solid amount of time to pass so we can see how this stuff fits him before we talk about him anymore. Getting your PK Thunder absorbed by a nikita missle isn't fun though.