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[GHNeko]

Cg's are a staple tactic for ic's-took them out
Nado was a staple tactic for mk-nerfed it


Lucario never had attacking out of up b from the start-Added it and shifted lucario's metagame
Bowser never had sa on crawl or killing throws-Added it and shifted bowser's metagame
Zelda never could move while doing din's-Added it and shifted Zelda's metagame
I wont even talk about ness.


The fact is the wbr added it and then took it out because they didn't want to deal with the complaints. Don't make up excuses like they only pertain to ivy.

CGs are still in for ICs. wtf. They got rid of the infinite.
Nado is nerfed but it still exists.

I've never really supported Lucario's attacking out of Up B, same thing with Zelda, if anything, I want Zelda's no-special fall Side B gone.

The metagame shift with Bowser's SA Crawl is nothing compared to the shift with Ivy having SHD leaf.

Giving Ivy the SHD leaf is a more massive metagame shift than pretty much all of those things, arguably even more than Lucario up B.

Ness and Link and other bottom/low tier characters with bad move genes required massive overhauls in order to work so of course their metagame is going to shift as its a side effect of making them work. And even still, Link metagame shift wasn't even that large and ness is work in progress.

.__.

 

[_clinton]

Looking at the Ice Climbers...

What about an idea of giving a "call back" option to Nana...so that if you taunted or some other thing like that Nana would warp to your location if she isn't KOed yet...naturally if it was going to be activated by a taunt...it would have to be the "yep" taunt ^_^

Or is something like that just out of the question for more than it being unable to get programed in right now?

 

[Dan_X]

it takes away a single laser. how the **** is that game breaking?

Really? Do you main Falco? It cuts his laser game in HALF. Though you wouldn't understand that as you don't main Falco... right?

A few months ago, I remember TESTING a build where SHDL was taken out.

It ruined Falco.

I don't know, you can't really fix Falco without ruining him. He combos so well and you want to keep that. What you don't want to keep is his laser spam and run game. But if you try to touch that, you kill the character.


I don't know, never liked falco. Best spam in the game, combos better than most people, and has a recovery that is still better than characters who's recovery is thier inherent weakness. Average recovery......really nothing special but not horrible. I guess I can't really point out a solid weakness on him but whatever, thats not my problem. Its probably why I play falco. Falco is VERY Polarized.



Its sad that big characters in general can't stand up to spam and spacers very well. But that's just their weakness. They do have strengths though. And advantageous matchups too. Many large characters are excell in something where smalls/mediums are just overall more average characters as their size isn't a disadvantage.

My experience with bigs can be summed up as such.

To avoid combo's DI HARDER
You survive better BETTER
Stocks will go FASTER
You'll hit STRONGER

QFT.

You're still changing the staple tactic of a character that has been played like that since the release of Brawl. <_>

Exactly. This is what I like so much about Falco's gameplay. I love how he plays.

you can do the same thing with a single laser in your sh. the lasers have enough stun now that one shot instead of two isn't going to make that big of a difference.

Again, you're ignorant. You don't have much of a right to make judgment calls on a character that you clearly don't know as well as you presume to think.

see: ICs

>_>

don't talk to me about changing staple tactics.

Perhaps you don't realize that I too main ICs, and was actively involved in finding new infinities way back during vBrawl. In addition, I still play them now. I'm not some IC scrub. I'm not going to lie, I was very angry that they had talked about removing the IC's CGs, and then guess what.. they did. However, I realized that it can be unfair, depending of course on the skill level of the IC at hand. It's really easy to mess up the Alt grabs for example, which balanced them in my eyes. Either way, the back room as made the ICs amazing, they are still really fun to play. Desynching is more important now than it was before. They are tailored far more intimately then before, which is very nice. For example, blizzard pulling in is genius. With all of their comboing possibilities meshed into their grab game they still have the STRONGEST grab game in Brawl. Popo is FAR MORE viable at surviving / killing. You know what, with the changes they made to the ICs I'd go so far as to say they are actually more fun to play now than they were before... Playing them now feels more like an art, a sort of beauty if you will.

Where have you been? Haven't you been playing the same ICs I have? Why don't you realize how amazing they are now? The only problems that need to be kinked out are Nana related issues... as we all know certain codes don't effect her and her AI is CRAP.

My point is... the IC changes have no relation to said proposed Falco SHDL change. Also, why are you so adamant on another character's changed? I hardly ever stick my nose into other characters-- characters that I don't main, because I know I have no right to be involved if I don't know the character well.

Regardless, it is my opinion that we should implement PS reflect first, and then if anything is still a little too spammable, address that individually afterward.

Edit: Orca, I think that Melee lasers were just as good, possibly better at approaching (They seemed to have a bit more hitlag or something, but I admit I could be making things up)..

First off, I think reflecting is ABSOLUTELY fine, this coming from a Falco main. This coming from a person who mains a character who will see this change in the highest. Fine by me.

Secondly, again, I don't care how Falco was better in Melee. I like Falco in Brawl. That's why I play Brawl+ and not Melee.

Also, sorry that I went on a tirade initially, I just couldn't believe what I was reading... and I wanted to make a point.

i just find it a little unfair that falco can combo the hell out of pretty much any heavy character and all i'm left with is a defective AI that can't tell the difference between me and an opponent charging their fsmash. just a little unbalanced if you ask me....

You're joking right? Seriously, are you trying to pull here? This doesn't even make sense from a logical standpoint. You're rediculous. I hardly ever have problems with Nana, though it is possible. Most of the time she works to precision, enacting my every command-- espeically during desychs. The ICs have no reason not to wreck a larger character as well, what are you doing wrong? How can you possibly say "It's not Fair that Falco is better against big characters.. he should be nerfed because Nana's AI is garbage sometimes?" Seriously man, does that make any sense? Couldn't you swap out Falco for... oh I don't know, Fox, ZSS, Mario, Luigi, etc.?

Frozen, just in case you didn't know... ICs have a much more powerful, and deeper combo game than Falco could ever dream of having. I find it funny that you didn't know that.

 

[GHNeko]

Looking at the Ice Climbers...

What about an idea of giving a "call back" option to Nana...so that if you taunted or some other thing like that Nana would warp to your location if she isn't KOed yet...naturally if it was going to be activated by a taunt...it would have to be the "yep" taunt ^_^

Or is something like that just out of the question for more than it being unable to get programed in right now?

Even if we could program that. It's an easy mode button that nulls most, if not all, one of the ICs weakesses. protecting nana.

 

[_clinton]

Even if we could program that. It's an easy mode button that nulls most, if not all, one of the ICs weakesses. protecting nana.

Actually looking into it more I think you could program it along the line if you can't already...because things like belay and squall hammer call Nana over if she is close enough to Popo anyway...

 

[GHNeko]

Yea, but based of the wording of your original suggestion, the summon nana thing would work like 2P in SSE, which is an easy mode button. :V

 

[Dan_X]

Can u tell me why falco deserves shdl and ivy dont?? Considering the fact that falco's travel longer and hits harder and also can't be broken up??

I don't even need to answer, because it's already been done:

Because Falco had it from the start of Brawl and Ivy never did? Because it's a Falco staple tactic, and it's not a staple tactic for Ivy? Because we had to "give" Ivy a SH Double Leef and we never had to give it to Falco because it's what he was created with? Because SH Double green pyew shifted Ivy's metagame and Falco's never was shifted? Because it was made Falco...Falco and SH double green sharp thingys didnt define Ivy?

It's like saying why does this guy's house deserve a pool when your's doesnt when you only had a pool for like a week, and the guy's house came with the pool.

QFT.

Getting owned Neko.

I wouldn't say so, I was actually going to say, Neko is owning.

thats the point, you can't edit AI. so you give us a couple buffs, promise to fix a few graphical errors here and there, and then leave us with a stupid as **** computer who gets herself killed half the time. the problem being that she will die (either by her own hand or the opponents (either way he has no ****ing concept of the difference between getting hit and standing still) you leave us with one climber whos only purpose is to build damage before he dies. now, wouldn't it make sense for nana to be able to DO something on the field aside from assisting in combos? if she's going to die at least make her a realistic threat while alive.



and for the record, even in vBrawl i didn't use CGs. thats use. not 'utilize' or 'rarely do them'. i never cgd. i play B+ ICs the same way i play my vBrawl ICs and all i can notice is a ****ty AI and no sense of terror in my opponent. whats the point of having two characters in one when you can't use them to their fullest?

I don't get it. No really. We as IC mainers know that Nana's AI is something we have to put up with, she killed use in vBrawl and she still continues to do so in Brawl+. Fixing her would be great. However, she's really no worse off now than she was before. You act as though her dieing easily is a new phenomenon. The thing is, Popo is MUCH strogner on his own than he was previously. Nana also Facilitates an excellent combo game, even in the absence of alternating grabs. In addition, their grab game is so deep that it's still absolutely one to be feared.

What are you doing wrong with the ICs? Again, I ask because I play them too, and do quite well.

 

[Roxas215]

CGs are still in for ICs. wtf. They got rid of the infinite.
Nado is nerfed but it still exists.

I've never really supported Lucario's attacking out of Up B, same thing with Zelda, if anything, I want Zelda's no-special fall Side B gone.

The metagame shift with Bowser's SA Crawl is nothing compared to the shift with Ivy having SHD leaf.

Giving Ivy the SHD leaf is a more massive metagame shift than pretty much all of those things, arguably even more than Lucario up B.

Ness and Link and other bottom/low tier characters with bad move genes required massive overhauls in order to work so of course their metagame is going to shift as its a side effect of making them work. And even still, Link metagame shift wasn't even that large and ness is work in progress.

.__.

Wether the metagame shift was as drastic as ivy's or or not doesn't change the fact that the metagame did in fact shift which was your whole argument. Don't get me wrong. I love the way ivy plays now and i accepted the fact her faster leaves were removed. However i just wanted to know why yall say ivy don't deserve them but falco does. It seems the only reason yall have is cause "falco had it from the start" So what? It completely wrecks tall and heavy chars.(and don't think im saying this cause im scared of falco. Peach pwns falco) I'll even go as far as to say the sole reason yall even gave bowser sa was a big "**** you" to falco. That has to say something.

Also as far as ness and link. Umm if ivy was solo in vbrawl she would be low tier as well.

Even if we could program that. It's an easy mode button that nulls most, if not all, one of the ICs weakesses. protecting nana.

I agree with this.

 

[_clinton]

Yea, but based of the wording of your original suggestion, the summon nana thing would work like 2P in SSE, which is an easy mode button. :V

Well...don't throw it off right away...I'm just trying to add in ways that would fix one of the ICs problems right now...

And looking at squall hammer more...adding to the range of the "Nana summon" part of it (but nothing too insane like my 1st idea) might make it easier to avoid Nana wandering off...

But I don't know...what do you think would help?

 

[GHNeko]

Wether the metagame shift was as drastic as ivy's or or not doesn't change the fact that the metagame did in fact shift which was your whole argument. Don't get me wrong. I love the way ivy plays now and i accepted the fact her faster leaves were removed. However i just wanted to know why yall say ivy don't deserve them but falco does. It seems the only reason yall have is cause "falco had it from the start" So what? It completely wrecks tall and heavy chars.(and don't think im saying this cause im scared of falco. Peach pwns falco) I'll even go as far as to say the sole reason yall even gave bowser sa was a big "**** you" to falco. That has to say something.

Also as far as ness and link. Umm if ivy was solo in vbrawl she would be low tier as well.

No. My arguement was soley not about shifting in Metagames. If anything, it could be pretty much summed up as. The shift in metagames was an additional point (albeit a bad one, or at least badly worded.)

Falco gets SHDL because he's had it from the start and Ivy did. He was carved around SHDL. You take away SHDL and you take away Falco.

Falco = SHDL, as Falco's metagame was formed with SHDL as the core.

That doesn not happen when you take away SHDLeaf from Ivy. Ivy was not carved around SHDLeaf. Ivy did not start with SHDLeaf.

Ivy != SHDLeaf, as Ivy's metagame was formed WITHOUT SHDLeaf as the core, meaning she doesn't need it ie deserves it less.

A character formed around the tactic from the very release of a game deserves that tactic far more than a character who later obtains a varient of that tatic for a short amount of time but then shortly loses it.

And Ivy has already gotten a major rework, and Ivy is STILL being worked on.

SHDL might shut down SOME heavies and SOME tall characters. But then again, that's why you have secondaries and counter picks. Marth's counter alone can shut down main tactics for certain characters like Sonic, Ness, and Lucas, but does that mean counter needs to be nerfed or changed? No.

And about Bowser's SA Crawl, we wanted to give Bowser his own form of CC waaay back when. Like mid-early Brawl+ days when we were discussing things in the back room. It wasn't specifically due to Falco, but it is one of the highlighting aspects of his SA Crawl. We really wanted to add it because its a Boozer-trait.

You know. Boozer doesn't care. :V

 

[Roxas215]

If falco's sole purpose was shdl then why the hell did yall give him a faster utilt? Thats saying(what can i add to make falco wreck heavies even more then he already does)

If falco's sole purpose was shdl then why the hell did yall give him the new refelctor? He sure didn't have that from the start

So let me get this straight not only does he keep shdl because(it's what makes falco) but yall also added a new reflector to make him "different"?? The hell?

 

[Dan_X]

i just wanted to know why yall say ivy don't deserve them but falco does.

First of all, please find in text where I said that Ivy's leaves should be removed.

Wether the metagame shift was as drastic as ivy's or or not doesn't change the fact that the metagame did in fact shift which was your whole argument. Don't get me wrong. I love the way ivy plays now and i accepted the fact her faster leaves were removed. However i just wanted to know why yall say ivy don't deserve them but falco does. It seems the only reason yall have is cause "falco had it from the start" So what? It completely wrecks tall and heavy chars.(and don't think im saying this cause im scared of falco. Peach pwns falco) I'll even go as far as to say the sole reason yall even gave bowser sa was a big "**** you" to falco. That has to say something.

The difference between you and I is that I keep my nose out of other characters, characters that I don't main, leaving them to the mains and back room, and you just want everything changed for the sake of your character, even if that means you forcing changes upon a character outside of your comprehension.

Actually, the change they made with Bowser giving him SA on crawling / crouching was ingenious. It doesn't hurt the matchup much, you've just got to have better spacing. However, it definately makes bowser more intimidating than before, and htere's nothing wrong with that. This affects every character across the bored. Any Spammy character will be negated by Bower. So it helps him more with his match-ups, so what? Your point? Also, please stop saying "yall" I'm not a hick.

EDIT:

If falco's sole purpose was shdl then why the hell did yall give him a faster utilt? Thats saying(what can i add to make falco wreck heavies even more then he already does)

Seriously man, you're beginning to sound like a broken record. This isn't 'tit for tat' we're not children here. Stop being a baby. If you don't even understand why Falco's Utilt has been sped up then you've single-handedly proven that you have no right to be pressing anything Falco related, and for that I thank you.

ignorant people = fail.

 

[Roxas215]

First of all, please find in text where I said that Ivy's leaves should be removed.



The difference between you and I is that I keep my nose out of other characters, characters that I don't main, leaving them to the mains and back room, and you just want everything changed for the sake of your character, even if that means you forcing changes upon a character outside of your comprehension.

Except that falco has gotten more changes then any 4 of the chars i play have(peach,ivy,zard,zss) And im not forcing changes on anything. Im not scared of falco. Peach wrecks him. I just don't see how people can vouch for falco's shdl and not ivy's when falco does it better,faster,and wrecks more people with it. I admit in doubles ivy's faster leaves were tedious but in singles they were nothing to be scared about as EVERY SINGLE CHAR COULD JAB RIGHT THROUGH THEM

 

[GHNeko]

If falco's sole purpose was shdl then why the hell did yall give him a faster utilt? Thats saying(what can i add to make falco wreck heavies even more then he already does)

If falco's sole purpose was shdl then why the hell did yall give him the new refelctor? He sure didn't have that from the start

So let me get this straight not only does he keep shdl because(it's what makes falco) but yall also added a new reflector to make him "different"?? The hell?

Falco mains wanted depth to Falco and wanted him to be more than just Short Hop double pyew pyew. And the collective falco mains got together and gave legit reason after legit reasons with reasonable terms and trade offs for Falco. :V

As he is now, he is more than just SHDL, but really, SHDL is still the "alco" in "Falco"

EDIT: Lolwut. Falco hasnt recieved that many changes. Ivy, Zard, and ZSS deff has had more changes than Falco, IIRC. If not, Zard and Ivy.

 

[Dan_X]

Except that falco has gotten more changes then any 4 of the chars i play have(peach,ivy,zard,zss)

My point is you're getting involved with things that you clearly don't understand, due to soem misplaced ideal of what Ivy should or should not have. How would you like it if I started pressing a load of BS upon Peach, say that she shouldn't be able to Float, blah blah blah. Do you think that's fair for me to say? Am I qualified to make call? Probably not, because I DON'T PLAY HER. It's not my place. Perhaps you should worry about yourself--- keep to your own place, instead of trying to ruin the character that I love in Brawl+.

EDIT:

As he is now, he is more than just SHDL, but really, SHDL is still the "alco" in "Falco"

Seriously Neko, this response is sheer win, lol.

EDIT: Lolwut. Falco hasnt recieved that many changes. Ivy, Zard, and ZSS deff has had more changes than Falco, IIRC. If not, Zard and Ivy

Yeah, I was wondering what he was talking about too. haha.

Im not scared of falco. Peach wrecks him.

And guess what, with your proposed SHDL removal / nerfed Utilt (and maybe even Shine removal) Peach would own him harder than she already does. So why would you want these changed? What's Falco supposed to do against Peach? LoL. You're ridiculous, it's actually becoming humorous.

 

[timothyung]

Isn't Ivy's leaf already sped up by 125%? You are just complaining about him not being able to do two sideBs in a SH? And just because Falco has something similar, Ivy should have it? So every character in the game should have disjointed hitboxes, the size of Ike's. Just because Ike have the huge disjointed hitboxes, other characters should have it? No.

 

[Dan_X]

Isn't Ivy's leaf already sped up by 125%? You are just complaining about him not being able to do two sideBs in a SH? And just because Falco has something similar, Ivy should have it? So every character in the game should have disjointed hitboxes, the size of Ike's. Just because Ike have the huge disjointed hitboxes, other characters should have it? No.

EXACTLY. Just because character A has 'this' doesn't mean character B, C, and D should have 'this' too.

 

[Roxas215]

And guess what, with your proposed SHDL removal / nerfed Utilt (and maybe even Shine removal) Peach would own him harder than she already does. So why would you want these changed? What's Falco supposed to do against Peach? LoL. You're ridiculous, it's actually becoming humorous.

Wait what?? When did i ever say remove his utilt and shine?? I only mentioned them because ghneko said "falco revolves around shdl" So if he does then why give him these other features?

Also i never said take out his shdl. Im only arguing why people feel that falco needs it and ivy don't. I never once said remove anything from falco.

Isn't Ivy's leaf already sped up by 125%? You are just complaining about him not being able to do two sideBs in a SH? And just because Falco has something similar, Ivy should have it? So every character in the game should have disjointed hitboxes, the size of Ike's. Just because Ike have the huge disjointed hitboxes, other characters should have it? No.

Im not saying ivy should have it soley on falco having it. Im saying they added it in for ivy already and then took it out because they felt ivy didn't need it. Why does falco "need" it and ivy don't? Especially when ivy's isn't near as damaging as falco's

 

[_clinton]

SHDL might shut down SOME heavies and SOME tall characters. But then again, that's why you have secondaries and counter picks. Marth's counter alone can shut down main tactics for certain characters like Sonic, Ness, and Lucas, but does that mean counter needs to be nerfed or changed? No.

And about Bowser's SA Crawl, we wanted to give Bowser his own form of CC waaay back when. Like mid-early Brawl+ days when we were discussing things in the back room. It wasn't specifically due to Falco, but it is one of the highlighting aspects of his SA Crawl. We really wanted to add it because its a Boozer-trait.

You know. Boozer doesn't care. :V

I still think Boozer should have that SA on his dash as well if that is the view we are looking at more...

Also looking at Samus sense we are talking about Falco and Ivysaur's double dip...is it possible to do two short hop missiles in Brawl+ and have them auto cancel?

I'm not 100% sure if it is that is why I'm asking...

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Ivy has enough as it is. Falco's laser game made him Falco.

 

[Roxas215]

Ivy has enough as it is. Falco's laser game made him Falco.

This is the same reason that keeps coming up. So if shdl "made" falco then why did the falco mains feel the need to give him a new reflector?

I feel like im going in circle. Im giving up. Yall win.

 

[timothyung]

Im not saying ivy should have it soley on falco having it. Im saying they added it in for ivy already and then took it out because they felt ivy didn't need it. Why does falco "need" it and ivy don't? Especially when ivy's isn't near as damaging as falco's

Then why does Ivy need it? Your reason now only is that Falco has it.

 

[_clinton]

Then why does Ivy need it? Your reason now only is that Falco has it.

He said it wasn't as damaging as Falco's...

It still was useful...

 

[Roxas215]

Then why does Ivy need it? Your reason now only is that Falco has it.

It helped space her attacks. Contrary to what people think ivy isn't that good. Dthrow to uair can be di'ed out of(which should stay that way) And the only combo she has into a kill move is razor leaf to fsmash. Her faster leaves helped her approach. Yes she has combos but none into kill moves. Also lets not forget she is still very easily gimped(which should stay this way. I was the 1st one to say multiple up b's was stupid) Also the multitude of fire attacks in the game. And then the leaves. Like i keep saying they can be broken up by any jab in the game. The same is true for when she did have double leaf but since it was fast it messed up the timing of the opponent trying to jab. I remember playing a marth player and all he had to do was fair the leaves. They broke every time. Only thing she really has going for her is her wicked bair.

Ivy is really only a major threat on wario ware. I believe when a gold set is release banning ww against ivy is going to be as common as banning fd against diddy in vbrawl.

 

[timothyung]

This is the same reason that keeps coming up. So if shdl "made" falco then why did the falco mains feel the need to give him a new reflector?

I feel like im going in circle. Im giving up. Yall win.

You add a function to the mobile phone. It's still a mobile phone. But if you remove the function of phoning others, it's not a mobile phone anymore.

 

[Dan_X]

You add a function to the mobile phone. It's still a mobile phone. But if you remove the function of phoning others, it's not a mobile phone anymore.

That's deep man, I'm talking Matrix deep! There is no spoon.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

That's deep man, I'm talking Matrix deep! There is no spoon.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lol
that i freaking awesome. Sigged.

But it makes sense. Take away the main tool, it isnt the actual thing anymore.

kinda lik falco and his SDHL

 

[Alphatron]

I don't think Leaf spam should be put back in, but I can see where Philly is coming from.

Ivy used them for certain things and they added to her game. Plus, one can say that Ivy would prefer such a change since she originally wasn't a good character to begin with.

Also, don't take out Zelda's lack of fall special after Din's. It helps her only a little bit and the lag from Din's is still present.

 

[Dan_X]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lol
that i freaking awesome. Sigged.

Hahaha awesome!

Anyway guys. I'll be away for a week as of today! Ahh! Have a great week everyone! :D

 

[PKNintendo]

CGs are still in for ICs. wtf. They got rid of the infinite.
Nado is nerfed but it still exists.

I've never really supported Lucario's attacking out of Up B, same thing with Zelda, if anything, I want Zelda's no-special fall Side B gone.

The metagame shift with Bowser's SA Crawl is nothing compared to the shift with Ivy having SHD leaf.

Giving Ivy the SHD leaf is a more massive metagame shift than pretty much all of those things, arguably even more than Lucario up B.

Ness and Link and other bottom/low tier characters with bad move genes required massive overhauls in order to work so of course their metagame is going to shift as its a side effect of making them work. And even still, Link metagame shift wasn't even that large and ness is work in progress.

.__.

I'm pretty sure Ness is fine the way he is. Wasn't Link finished?

I wont even talk about ness.

Oh like you guys aren't perfect too! Fact is, we complain because we felt the right to do so. We were childish, annoying and uncooperative. At least MOST OF THE NESS MAINS were civil. Only a few complained (like me)

Stop stereotyping the Ness mains.

 

[FrozenHobo]

CGs are still in for ICs. wtf. They got rid of the infinite.

no, you got rid of alts. every alt =/= infinites. bthrow alts = infinites. you took out most of their CGs.

Really? Do you main Falco? It cuts his laser game in HALF. Though you wouldn't understand that as you don't main Falco... right?

no, i don't main falco, but i do know that if i get him in random all i have to do is spam lasers and i can shut down most characters without trying.

Again, you're ignorant. You don't have much of a right to make judgment calls on a character that you clearly don't know as well as you presume to think.

the point being i don't know anything about him but can still camp well without trying.

Perhaps you don't realize that I too main ICs, and was actively involved in finding new infinities way back during vBrawl. In addition, I still play them now. I'm not some IC scrub. I'm not going to lie, I was very angry that they had talked about removing the IC's CGs, and then guess what.. they did. However, I realized that it can be unfair, depending of course on the skill level of the IC at hand. It's really easy to mess up the Alt grabs for example, which balanced them in my eyes. Either way, the back room as made the ICs amazing, they are still really fun to play. Desynching is more important now than it was before. They are tailored far more intimately then before, which is very nice. For example, blizzard pulling in is genius. With all of their comboing possibilities meshed into their grab game they still have the STRONGEST grab game in Brawl. Popo is FAR MORE viable at surviving / killing. You know what, with the changes they made to the ICs I'd go so far as to say they are actually more fun to play now than they were before... Playing them now feels more like an art, a sort of beauty if you will.

Where have you been? Haven't you been playing the same ICs I have? Why don't you realize how amazing they are now? The only problems that need to be kinked out are Nana related issues... as we all know certain codes don't effect her and her AI is CRAP.

My point is... the IC changes have no relation to said proposed Falco SHDL change. Also, why are you so adamant on another character's changed? I hardly ever stick my nose into other characters-- characters that I don't main, because I know I have no right to be involved if I don't know the character well.

maybe you don't realize that i'm one of the main community members who suggested changes/buffs to ICs in B+. it doesn't matter how awesome they can play now, nana is even worse with he changes because she doesn't realize they're there. this makes her considerably stupider than in vBrawl, and with all of the combos now if she does get hit there's even less chance of saving her.

with the removal of the infinites (or even just alts) the ICs lost a big scare tactic they had in vBrawl. why should i be afraid of approaching them when they can't 0-death me anymore? with the new physics if nana is going to die all the time then why not make having her there in the first place be something to fear?

You're joking right? Seriously, are you trying to pull here? This doesn't even make sense from a logical standpoint. You're rediculous. I hardly ever have problems with Nana, though it is possible. Most of the time she works to precision, enacting my every command-- espeically during desychs. The ICs have no reason not to wreck a larger character as well, what are you doing wrong? How can you possibly say "It's not Fair that Falco is better against big characters.. he should be nerfed because Nana's AI is garbage sometimes?" Seriously man, does that make any sense? Couldn't you swap out Falco for... oh I don't know, Fox, ZSS, Mario, Luigi, etc.?

Frozen, just in case you didn't know... ICs have a much more powerful, and deeper combo game than Falco could ever dream of having. I find it funny that you didn't know that.

its not the deepness that i'm complaining about. its a crap AI, nothing for my opponent to be scared of, and that falco takes no skill to camp with. but thank you for spending 6 sentences alone calling me an idiot. definitely validates your opinions.

I don't get it. No really. We as IC mainers know that Nana's AI is something we have to put up with, she killed use in vBrawl and she still continues to do so in Brawl+. Fixing her would be great. However, she's really no worse off now than she was before. You act as though her dieing easily is a new phenomenon. The thing is, Popo is MUCH strogner on his own than he was previously. Nana also Facilitates an excellent combo game, even in the absence of alternating grabs. In addition, their grab game is so deep that it's still absolutely one to be feared.

What are you doing wrong with the ICs? Again, I ask because I play them too, and do quite well.

again, i'm the one who suggested a lot of the buffs, so thank you for thinking they work so well.

she is considerably worse off for the reasons i mentioned earlier.

their grab game was deep. now if i get a grab the best option is to dthrow -> blizzard to get a semi-infinite going for a little while. and when thats done the best i can do i follow up with a nair or uair. where's this 'deep grab game' in B+ you're telling me about? again, i ask because i play them too, and i don't see the grab game as being as devistating as vBrawl.

 

[CloneHat]

A competent player is not going to be "scared" if he knows what he's dealing with.

A grab will get opponents to high percents, and another one sets up a kill.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Wow....a lot of arguing has been going on since I went to bed last night 0_0

...Anyways, Ivy doesn't need faster leaves in my opinion. UNLIKE FALCO, only one leaf per SH doesn't ruin her; it actually KEEPS the original purpose of the leaves, which is, spacing her attacks. And Ivy still has dthrow> up b, which will kill at higher percents thanks to the sweetspot of the up b, a fast fsmash, a WTFBBQ strong usmash, an extremely disjointed bair, disjointed fair, ridiculously strong uair, meteor smash on dair, dair has nearly very little lag now, vine whip isn't as punishable when you use it as an attack (usually this would be out of dthrow), meteor smash on down smash, utilt has a huge hitbox now, no limited stamina, can stay as Ivysaur, etc. etc.

TL;DR: Ivy is very well off as she is and doesn't need SHFFDRL (Short Hop Fast Fall Double Razor Leaf lolz)

 

[PKNintendo]

no, i don't main falco, but i do know that if i get him in random all i have to do is spam lasers and i can shut down most characters without trying.

Not really a legitimate response. I mean come on. You can't say that about ANY character. Falco has learning curve (like most characters)

He isn't a pick up and play characters. Unless you mean CPUs...
I can Beat them by spamming Ness dtilt.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I am a falco main and I am all for di-able single short hop lasers. I think my friends would hate him less. XD

 

[goodoldganon]

I am a falco main and I am all for di-able single short hop lasers. I think my friends would hate him less. XD

It really comes down this

Does Falco shut down the heavy/tall characters too well? Is he too easy to pick up as a counterpick to heavies? (He has a learning curve, but lets face it, most heavies can't face his spam game) If so, would one laser in a single hop do anything to alleviate the problem? Will is massively hurt his other matchups as well?

If SHDL is seen as balanced against tall, heavy characters then most likely SHDL will stay. Personally I think it's fine as is. It's a little one sided, but the matchup isn't like D3 vs DK in vBrawl. You can't just counterpick Falco and insta win. You gotta at least be somewhat proficient with him.

 

[Plum]

no, you got rid of alts. every alt =/= infinites. bthrow alts = infinites. you took out most of their CGs.

I know for a fact that I showed you in the IC's thread why alts needed to go altogether. Bthrow is not the only infinite, because Fthrow and Dthrow alts can BOTH be used as an infinite. Whether they are unrealistic or not, they are there. And if it is there and can be learned, somebody WILL learn them.

They had to get rid of all the alt throws. I agree that it would have been nice to somehow keep the other alts, because with their standard use they move towards the edge.
They were ALL potentially infinite though, just depends on how you do them.

Fthrow alt is infinite if you buffer the throws. (my personal favorite of all their infinites)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp6F9mmrGkw&feature=related

Dthrow alt is infinite if you use pivot grabs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjiloEDKFx0&feature=related

So don't say anything about Bthrow being the only infinite alt because it is NOT by any means.

with the removal of the infinites (or even just alts) the ICs lost a big scare tactic they had in vBrawl. why should i be afraid of approaching them when they can't 0-death me anymore? with the new physics if nana is going to die all the time then why not make having her there in the first place be something to fear?

Let's just ignore the fact that they have great combo potential outside their grab game, and a 100% guaranteed kill at the proper percent from one grab. But hey, why should anyone be afraid of that? Even without the infinites their grab is still the most feared in the game.

And you know as well as I know that Nana is being worked on. Just because a code doesn't exist for it yet doesn't mean they aren't trying to fix her. She doesn't work under the new physics YET. Key word is YET.

its not the deepness that i'm complaining about. its a crap AI, nothing for my opponent to be scared of, and that falco takes no skill to camp with. but thank you for spending 6 sentences alone calling me an idiot. definitely validates your opinions.

The AI is nothing new. Same AI in vBrawl as in B+. Again, they are working on Nana's physics issues. But why should I be afraid of Nana when I can fear the player? Desynching is a more significant part of IC's game and that gives you control over Nana. Effectively utilizing desynching alleviates the AI issue by ensuring the AI isn't actually doing anything as often as possible. Yeah I'm not going to fear the AI, but I will fear a player who effectively controls both climbers to their fullest potential.

 

[Swordplay]

I suppose the problem created is that against bigs. Falco's still maintain 70:30 advantages.......
Against certain bigs like D3 when his lasers are blocked, the advantage is far less. Soooo.....


I'd like to try something. Lasers have transendent priority right? Can we make them non-transendent?

This would allow them to be canceled by a stronger move which. would perhaps allow characters lacking approaches like ganon to approach via wizard foot.

If that doesn't work, Why not decrease Falco's smash KB and thus kill power.

Finally as a last resort, if that won't work, maybe we have to raise his SH a little to make SHDL less spammable. (Definatly a last resort)

 

[Revven]

It really comes down this

Does Falco shut down the heavy/tall characters too well? Is he too easy to pick up as a counterpick to heavies? (He has a learning curve, but lets face it, most heavies can't face his spam game) If so, would one laser in a single hop do anything to alleviate the problem? Will is massively hurt his other matchups as well?

If SHDL is seen as balanced against tall, heavy characters then most likely SHDL will stay. Personally I think it's fine as is. It's a little one sided, but the matchup isn't like D3 vs DK in vBrawl. You can't just counterpick Falco and insta win. You gotta at least be somewhat proficient with him.

This is what I think about Falco's SHDL:

It's too easy to do for anyone. I don't even use Falco and I was doing it just fine like any Falco main would. The only thing is, I suck as Falco in B+/vBrawl but in any case, it's still too easy regardless. Also, the most Falco can do with SHDL is camp with it and maybe use it to approach as well as shut down approaches. Other than those three things, it's certainly not a good combo starter in its current state, and personally, I could see Falco gaining more from SHL (with DI and FF on it of course) than from SHDL.

In Melee, Falcos often didn't try for SHDL, doesn't mean it wasn't the best option then because it was but SHL was more prominently used (and still is in Melee). SHL in Melee allowed for strings while the current SHDL can't really do that... all it can do is shut down approaches and be used to get away from someone (camping). I mea sure you can probably SHDL > Usmash or SHDL > Dair if you're lucky but, that's not really going to lead into anything else. SHL > Dair would probably actually be a better option than just doing SHDL and hoping for a Usmash or hoping for that Dair.

In other words, I feel that if we were to make the change, it would add depth to Falco and some more skill into using him than what his SHDL currently provides. I don't think he needs it but, if we were to implement it I'd be fine with it as I understand how important a FF Diable SHL would be to Falco (being that I used him in Melee and SHL'd as much as I could).

Just my thoughts.

 

[timothyung]

Though now the ICs' alt grabs are gone, some in the WBR are considering allowing one alt grab. Now what the code does is to force a grab break if Nana grabs a character, if Popo's previous action is a grab. We might reverse that to allow a single alt grab, removing the infinite while keeping the technique.