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[Deleted member]

Kirby has so much aerial range. His b-air is the most disjointed mah****ing aerial ever. And SOME how when he up-bs you, if you DI it weirdly it will like bring you behind him. His hammer is ****; his f-air has THREE hits to avoid airdodges, and it even combos into f-smash.

 

[The Cape]

PK Freeze (Its possible now)
Magnet (hitbox is the size of the animation)
Better Throws

PK Freeze: How?


Magnet: Interesting idea


Better throws: In the works

 

[Yingyay]

Screw the counter-pick system. Main a character till they become god-tier
(this coming from a person that mains two characters in one)

I dont even think kirby has good aerial range, its his priority that makes him so good.

 

[Deleted member]

His priority is disgustingly good. Can we address Kirby please?

 

[XSilvenX]

If you can't get over the fact that one character doesn't have an ok time beating everyone else in the game then maybe you shouldn't be playing fighters. There will always be counterpicks. Leave Lucas alone as GoG said, he has no major issues. I've played NL's Lucas on many occasions and I personally feel he's a pretty solid character but considering this is Brawl+ and this game will never be finished you guys are gonna go ahead and mess with him anyway and waste more time.

Yay Brawl+.

Delorted, when you say address are you asking for nerfs?

 

[Deleted member]

Man wtf? I said Kirby's priority is disgusting...ly good. Sry, I thought that was obvious, I've been saying Kirby is top 2 for a while now.

 

[Mattnumbers]

LMAO Delorted now Kirby buffs?...lmao this game is slowly becoming trash.

He meant disgusting as in disgustingly good

EDIT: ninja'd by him......but really Silven do you actually read the thread? Or do you just read random posts and then complain about them without looking into it more?

 

[MK26]

i think he wants kirby nerfs...its just that kirby is simple to learn and difficult to play against, having no highly abusable weakness (bad recovery, few combos, poor kill moves). That doesnt mean he doesnt have counters...Marth, ZSS, Zelda, and G&W all had teh capacity to shut down a Kirby in Brawl, and all still do in +. Not to mention several low tiers had even matchups with him then, and with the buffs they've received they probably will have the advantage.

EDIT: FFFFFFFFFFFFF DOUBLE NINJA'D

 

[Alphatron]

Alright, replace Kirby with Jigglypuff. I underestimated him.

Jiggs has awful range, but was considered viable easily in melee, even with her awful matchup against Marth. And that's speaking under the grounds that range even decides a matchup.

 

[XSilvenX]

He meant disgusting as in disgustingly good

EDIT: ninja'd by him......but really Silven do you actually read the thread? Or do you just read random posts and then complain about them without looking into it more?

No, of course I don't read this thread, why would I keep up with a thread that is filled with lame suggestions and stupid arguments 90% of the time? I come in, look at the ignorance being sputtered to and fro and then if it's worth it I comment about it, the rest of the time I don't even bother because I get quoted then it ends up being an e-argument. It's getting tiring and frankly I see it happen at least 3-4 times in each page with a bunch of different people. It's even worse when the zero competitive experience people ask for buffs... so yeah if you see me post and I come off as somewhat ignorant just know I didn't read the previous pages in the thread.

And just to be rude, Matt you're worse than GHNeko... stfu and stop spamming up the thread with your useless opinions on **** you have no experience on k thanks and go attend a tournament or something.

 

[stingers]

jiggs doesnt do bad against marth lol. its 50/50

umm. i have tons of competitive experience. what? :/

 

[Kink-Link5]

Am I the only one who is finding missing standing animations for Link, Kirby, Charizard, and Wolf, and a missing Running stop for Link?

The first few matches each time I play the beta, all the animations seem to be there, but after extended power time, Link, Kirby, Charizard, and wolf stop doing their idle stances, and Link becomes frozen when he tries to stop running.

I've tried both the txt file and cheat manager, and the direct gct download, and the results are the same for both.

 

[MK26]

we've hit the limit of teh frame speed mod engine. It happens to Mario too

 

[Mattnumbers]

No, of course I don't read this thread, why would I keep up with a thread that is filled with lame suggestions and stupid arguments 90% of the time? I come in, look at the ignorance being sputtered to and fro and then if it's worth it I comment about it, the rest of the time I don't even bother because I get quoted then it ends up being an e-argument. It's getting tiring and frankly I see it happen at least 3-4 times in each page with a bunch of different people. It's even worse when the zero competitive experience people ask for buffs... so yeah if you see me post and I come off as somewhat ignorant just know I didn't read the previous pages in the thread.

And just to be rude, Matt you're worse than GHNeko... stfu and stop spamming up the thread with your useless opinions on **** you have no experience on k thanks and go attend a tournament or something.

Silven, you don't need tourney experience to know about the game. Football Coaches don't play professional Football, and Logic and Intelligence beat out Experience any day. And those "lame suggestions" are often taken up and made into good changes. When the suggestions are bad, you see like 5 people jump on the person and prove him wrong pretty **** fast for a forum. If you think experience is so important why don't YOU provide some actual suggestions instead of just putting other peoples suggestions down? You're obviously too resistant to change to actually DO that however, so don't even bother trying.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Silven, you don't need tourney experience to know about the game. Football Coaches don't play professional Football, and Logic and Intelligence beat out Experience any day. And those "lame suggestions" are often taken up and made into good changes. When the suggestions are bad, you see like 5 people jump on the person and prove him wrong pretty **** fast for a forum. If you think experience is so important why don't YOU provide some actual suggestions instead of just putting other peoples suggestions down? Your obviously too resistant to change to actually DO that however, so don't even bother trying.

Professional Football coaches still go to games. >_>

And the Rollout Cancel debacle pretty much proves your "If it's wrong, it will be proved wrong too quickly for damages" argument wrong.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Professional Football coaches still go to games. >_>

And the Rollout Cancel debacle pretty much proves your "If it's wrong, it will be proved wrong too quickly for damages" argument wrong.

I watch a lot of professional smash.

And of course some things aren't proven wrong quickly, but most things are. Even then, it wasn't that bad.

EDIT: and I DO have experience, obviously not as much as someone who doesn't like in the middle of Alaska though, every week I drive like an hour both ways to go to smashfests.

 

[shanus]

Am I the only one who is finding missing standing animations for Link, Kirby, Charizard, and Wolf, and a missing Running stop for Link?

The first few matches each time I play the beta, all the animations seem to be there, but after extended power time, Link, Kirby, Charizard, and wolf stop doing their idle stances, and Link becomes frozen when he tries to stop running.

I've tried both the txt file and cheat manager, and the direct gct download, and the results are the same for both.

The new engine codes will fix this problem when released. We are working on them this week a lot.

 

[GPDP]

I remember when Silven flipped the **** out on me when I was talking about optimizing character gravities because he didn't bother to read my posts beforehand explaining the rationale behind such experimentation.

Although I wouldn't say logic beats experience any time. Theorycrafting is fun, but in the end, things have to be tested and tested rigorously. Sometimes people overlook flaws in their logic, which is why theories have to be tested before they are accepted.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I remember when Silven flipped the **** out on me when I was talking about optimizing character gravities because he didn't bother to read my posts beforehand explaining the rationale behind such experimentation.

Although I wouldn't say logic beats experience any time. Theorycrafting is fun, but in the end, things have to be tested and tested rigorously. Sometimes people overlook flaws in their logic, which is why theories have to be tested before they are accepted.

Well, testing doesn't mean experience. Experience is a great thing to have though, don't get me wrong, I just feel its not the end-all be-all of knowing what you're talking about.

 

[GuruKid]

umm. i have tons of competitive experience. what? :/

I don't think Silven was referring to you. You're legit.

 

[Revven]

If you can't get over the fact that one character doesn't have an ok time beating everyone else in the game then maybe you shouldn't be playing fighters. There will always be counterpicks. Leave Lucas alone as GoG said, he has no major issues. I've played NL's Lucas on many occasions and I personally feel he's a pretty solid character but considering this is Brawl+ and this game will never be finished you guys are gonna go ahead and mess with him anyway and waste more time.

Yay Brawl+.

I really don't like snide remarks like these Silven. You know the WBR is better than that, we don't do EVERY FREAKING suggestion that people post in here, a lot of the time it's discussed and then tossed out saying it's not a good idea at all or we simply some times don't even talk about it. You need to stop having this sort of attitude towards what I feel is targeted at me and the rest of the WBR...

 

[Alphatron]

jiggs doesnt do bad against marth lol. its 50/50

umm. i have tons of competitive experience. what? :/

I was told otherwise but I'll accept that. If Jiggs had an even match up with Melee Marth of all people then I don't see how Lucas' lack of aerial range destroys him.

And please no arguements due to Silven's poor comprehension on that post. No offense.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Well, testing doesn't mean experience. Experience is a great thing to have though, don't get me wrong, I just feel its not the end-all be-all of knowing what you're talking about.

Experience can make you very knowledgeble about match-ups. I think we should listen to people that had tournament experience about match-ups. However, theorycrafting should be used to decide how to change a character. There on forth, testing will be required to determine whether if the theory is proved. This is why we have nightly builds.

In short, as far as match-ups are concerned, pay attention to what Silven has to say (as long as he explains in detail what made the match-up bad/good). He should not be telling everybody they cannont suggest buffs/nerfs just because they have zero competitive experience. As long as they back it up with information and at best with some tests, we should consider their suggestion.

 

[Yingyay]

Wait......what are we even suggesting? All that was said was that kirby has great priority....thats about it. So whats being done about Ness's magnet? Its weird and too risky using the move right now since it lasts so long

 

[Mattnumbers]

I was thinking about saying stuff about matchups, but decided not to, but yes you are right experience helps a lot with Matchup knowledge.

EDIT: about Ness's magnet, I think that since it's now worse in the air the buffs for using it on the ground are justified. Now its good at what it's supposed to do, absorbing things, but it can no longer be used to stall and it is dangerous to use offstage/in the air.

 

[Swordplay]

he just NEEDS a zair hitbox to be competitive.

Don't laugh at him. I'd like to test it first.

Zairs are AMAZING.

You can do them right out of AD and they are extremly safe with auto-cancel.

Since Lucas has a very low shorthop it would be pretty useful IMO. It would be similar to Link and how he can spam it because of his high gravity. Of course, Lucas's would have poor range so it wouldn't be a spacer like Samus or Link, It would be more of a safe combo move like Tink but more spammable for the reasons I stated above.

 

[Yingyay]

I was thinking about saying stuff about matchups, but decided not to, but yes you are right experience helps a lot with Matchup knowledge.

EDIT: about Ness's magnet, I think that since it's now worse in the air the buffs for using it on the ground are justified. Now its good at what it's supposed to do, absorbing things, but it can no longer be used to stall and it is dangerous to use offstage/in the air.

seriously?.....I liked it better before. Its not like stalling helped him out alot. But watever I guess.

 

[stingers]

jiggs and lucas are very different characters, from 2 different games with differing mechanics.

i main jiggs and have played some p. good marths, and I can tell you the only way to win that fight is to just bait marth until he ****s up by floating in and out of his range repeatedly and go for a punish. you need a large stage with lots of platforms to win that fight. (dream land is really a godsend for that matchup @.@)

lucas doesn't have that kind of option. he's all momentum all the time, so if he wants to go into a characters range, he's gonna stay in there. he has even less range then jigglypuff did, and a worse recovery when he gets knocked out. he can't bait anything, all he can do is wait and wait and wait until hopefully the other player drops their controller and then he can get a few hits in before running away again.

there isn't even a problem with giving lucas a hitbox on his snake anyway so I don't see what the big deal is. Lucas could really use it so he doesn't get wrecked by those characters so badly. it's not like giving him a zair will suddenly make the matchup 70/30 in his favor, it'll just give him SOME WAY to fight back. as it is, there is nothing he can do against a character such as marth that can shut down any possible way he can approach with a forward air. giving him a disjointed aerial with some range will not break him, it will just make him competitive again.

if you disagree with that, you really just don't understand how lucas works. he's an aerial oriented character (why do you think he was given so much momentum?) that cannot approach through the air. if you want to main lucas, you have to bait your opponent, but you can't do that because he's all momentum. he's fun to play against people that don't know what they're doing, but if there was a national brawl+ tournament, I wouldn't expect any lucases anywhere near the top. his current weaknesses are too glaring for him to be a competitive character.

fixing his zair so it has a hitbox like every other character in the game won't break lucas or anything, it'll make him good again. people like matt are trying to use neko's ******** tradeoff system to give things lucas doesn't need in order to make him even more gimmicky then he already is. what he NEEDS is something as simple as a disjointed hitbox on his zair. that's it.

and yes, I know you can't currently add hitboxes. this is for the sake of the argument.

 

[FrozenHobo]

if you disagree with that, you really just don't understand how lucas works.

i like how you qualify your statement by saying if anyone disagrees with you they're an idiot.

 

[shanus]

Quite the snide remarks people, you add nothing to this thread by doing them.

This applies to everyone, whether tournament experienced or not. Get off the high horse and bring in quality feedback regardless of what your name is. No excuses.

 

[Wavedash Master]

@Stingers

Why are you suggesting this when we can't even implement this (yet)? From the way you're saying this, Lucas needs at least 1 or 2 longer range hitboxes in order for him to be viable (against he doesn't really have a way to bait, since he's momentum oriented just like you said). Your idea is to add a hitbox to his z-air, which isn't very feasible at the moment with the codes we have right now. How about we try something we could do, like increase the hitbox of one of his aerials? I'm thinking back air, since the move has comparative startup lag to his other aerials and would require you to time the move right.

 

[FrozenHobo]

can the sandbag have a longer re-spawn time on WWR? like 30 seconds? if you're going to make me keep it then at least make it so the bag isn't there all the time.

 

[SSBFalco]

can the sandbag have a longer re-spawn time on WWR? like 30 seconds? if you're going to make me keep it then at least make it so the bag isn't there all the time.

I like this suggestion. A lot.

 

[stingers]

what? lol how is that calling people an idiot? at all? i think you're just trying your hardest to attack me so you pick something that has nothing to do with the actual argument and twist my words around.

umm, theres nothing wrong with not understanding a character. especially if you don't play them. i'm just trying to inform you all that lucas needs some changes...

 

[Swordplay]

I like this suggestion. A lot.

Hmmmmm

Then there is some actual strategy to moving moving the sandbag around the stage and kickin it off or protecting it.


Adds a twist

 

[FrozenHobo]

you specifically said that if anyone disagreed with you that they didn't understand the character. when someone tells me i don't understand a character (in general, because i really don't understand/like lucas at all) i take it to mean they think i'm stupid and that i should just gtfo, which is what it seems like you were saying.

edit: can i get a link to the ganon sword codes?

 

[stingers]

well if you're easily insulted, thats not my problem. D:

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas is not an aerial oriented character, he just uses his aerials a decent amount. Really you do about as many tilts in a given Lucas combo as you do aerials. If you are constantly baiting you are playing him too defensively, lucas has quick moves but lacks some range, so all you have to do is get in and then you can ravage the opponent and knock them off the edge, setting up for Lucas's superior edgeguarding. Lucas does badly against characters like G&W simply because he can't get in. And even when you CAN'T you still have an incredibly spammable fast projectile that does 8%, which you can hold off character like Marth with (G&W has the bucket though, which is another reason he's so good against Lucas).
A zair buff would be cool but I would rather have things that play on his edgeguarding strength along with things that may be gimmicky because guess what, Lucas has always had gimmicky things since they discovered wavebouncing and zapjumping! It's part of his character, not to mention that the thing I'm suggesting would ALSO help with the range issue and improve his offstage edgeguarding.

Lucas's zair is pretty small anyways, shorter than Toon Links iirc.

Even with NONE of these buffs Lucas is still easily a viable character, and I don't see why you think he is so bad

 

[Yingyay]

Even with NONE of these buffs Lucas is still easily a viable character, and I don't see why you think he is so bad

Because everyone secretly hates their mains lol

 

[stingers]

matt maybe in the alaskan smash scene lucas is a viable character, but in the nc one he is not. and i'm not even talking nj, fl, texas, cali, etc