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[FrozenHobo]

Yeah... I don't think we wanted to encourage camping when we made this game, but I largely see this stage becoming a game of tag for whoever can get a damage lead on the opponent, forcing them to approach through the sandbag.

i believe a big *** TOLD YOU SO would be be in order... but i'll be the bigger man here and not bring up that I ALREADY SAID THIS. yep. not gonna be bitter at all.

 

[Plum]

Coupled with Luigi's Mansion (at least how Luigi's Mansion stands right now) then I could see how where those stages could be campy. (the pillars having the exact same effect as sandbag)

However, assuming Luigi's Mansion is changed to be more competitive (whether the return of Deadlands or an even longer respawn of the mansion, like 1:30 or 2 minutes) what is the issue of having one stage that plays in such a way?

A more unique counterpick list should be encouraged, and as it stands the bare WiFi room really did not differ itself enough from FD to actually make good use of the stage. It was longer, and lacked a lip. Big deal. The length is just going to make characters who like FD like it even more, and the lip shouldn't even be a factor considering you should know how to never get caught under it.

But I am curious... because the game treats the sandbag as a character, would it be possible to change its characteristics as such? Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to have attacking the sandbag cause negligible hitstun even by multihit attack standards.

 

[MK26]

TH didn't know the stage. In WWR's defence, it changes the entire camping mechanic, and he wasn't used to that. Any other stage gives the advantage to the projectile user, regardless of who is defending. WWR gives the advantage to the defender, regardless of who has a projectile. WWR is not the perfect anti-camping stage; it's the perfect anti-projectile stage. Several times, TH could have ftilted it, sh baired it, hell, just walking through it and acting like it wasn't there! Caesar did, with great results. Caesar knew the counterpick better than Thunderhorse, and he won because of it.

Also, I love the irony of successfully camping a Falco. Is that just me?

EDIT: not only that, but the sandbag and length of teh stage is an absolute non-issue in teams. Just throwing that out there.

Also, the best way to see how long the mansion respawns is to find tournament matches of vBrawl played on it. Check how long it took for the Mansion to be destroyed, and determine how long it should take to respawn depending on what percentage of the time it should be in Mansion mode and what percentage it should be in Deadlands mode

 

[Plum]

TH really did treat it literally like a wall.
Obviously Falco's bet approach options may be shut down by the sandbag, but it shouldn't stop him from using his other approaches.

Hitlag or not, in regards to non projectile approaches it is almost better to just ignore it.

Also considering the sandbag induced hitlag, it is a double edged sword.
Multihit attacks have noticeable lag from them which makes them more punishable in general.
However at the same time the hitlag can be abused on the players side by purposely increasing the duration of their attacks.

I can already say G&W can use the sandbag to abuse the extended frames of his Nair and Bair, and he definitely isn't alone in that subject. Where as I would normally use Dtilt to punish a spotdodge, it opens me up to using a FF nair so it lasts just long enough to hit after the invincibility frames; using Nair in that situation puts me in a better position than Dtilt would.

Some matchups will drastically change there but that is the entire point of a counterpick. It forces a different playstyle on the opponent that allows your natural strengths to be more prevalent.

 

[GHNeko]

Also, people could be smart and smack the sandbag around when they knock their opponent away so that it wracks up a **** load of damage, and you can usmash it sky high having it float offscreen for a while so that it's not interrupting you, as people seem to treat it as an object that will always be there.

I played on that stage like 10 times today and I found out plenty of strats with the sandbag and against it.

With Ness, I would use the bag as a catcher of PK fire to litterally create a wall of fire causing anyone to approach the sandbag to get caught in PKF. When it gained too much damage, I faired it off stage and reset its damage.

If I was a Falco playing on that stage. I'd just stand there and laser away at the sandbag. I dont need to let them approach. Hell, it'd be easier that way. Why? Because I can just rack up damage on the sandbag and sending flying straight up and off the screen like I just broken jigg's shield.

Guess what now? Your Falco CP just went bye.

It's a matter of playing on the stage and developing strategies AND COUNTER-STRATEGIES.

Playing on the stage in a single Wifi session, I have come up with strats and anti strats for Mario, Ness, Falco, Wolf, and even MK.

You guys need to practice more. :V

 

[GuruKid]

MK26, Plum and Neko basically nailed it.

It's a perfectly legitimate counterpick stage, one that forces you to think outside of mainstream tactics. Just change the awkward camera panning and reduce the death boundaries a bit, and the stage will be perfect. (Now if only it weren't such boring stage to look at...)

I'm also liking Green Greens considerably more; the speed change and wider death boundaries were more than welcome; now if only those bombs weren't so devastating...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Leaf, the sandbag takes so little effort to go through that approaching through it is almost like approaching through nothing, all it really does is stop projectiles with low knockback. You can't actually camp behind it besides reverse camping a Falco, since you go straight through it with almost no resistance.

 

[GHNeko]

That and if Falco was smart, he'd do what he can to keep the sandbag off stage and in the air. :V

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

if I got the frame data for falcon's dtaunt, can you guys give it super armor? just for the instant his hand raises to his head. he should still take damage, but the taunt should finish for that pro *** timing.

 

[goodoldganon]

Can't add special frames to attacks like that...yet. I was gonna add a line of frames that sped the move up x20 as soon as he starts talking, but the rest of the punks in the WBR didn't seem as keen on it.

 

[stingers]

LMAO

People taking this game too seriously is silly. Make it so Falcon's dtaunt ends in 1 frame but the whole sound still comes out.

 

[timothyung]

Add taunt canceling. PK said he could do it

 

[Nybb]

I still think that taunts should be made so that you can do them in midair. And maybe they cancel upon landing. But that would just be a bonus. Also, Falcon should be able to cancel an airborne taunt with a knee.

 

[_clinton]

When Ness uses psi magnet in the air he falls the entire length of his double jump before he can drop it. Using psi magnet in the air offstage is pretty much suicide if you actually absorb something.

Please tell me people are going to fix that...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

hope s o

 

[camelot]

I wonder if speeding up the actual "absorb" animation would help. I should try...

 

[Wander]

I also vote for some taunting fun. Especially on Falcon. Especially on his dtaunt.

 

[camelot]

Ok, I fixed that thing with Ness's down-b. Add this line in the frame speed mod:

0A00011F 40400000

It's as fast as it was before now.

 

[_clinton]

Thank you very much

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

When Ness uses psi magnet in the air he falls the entire length of his double jump before he can drop it. Using psi magnet in the air offstage is pretty much suicide if you actually absorb something.

EDIT: also, shine is far superior tactically to the magnet. Not only does shine prevent u from getting hit, it also has a close range attack, it hurts the opponent via reflected projectile, and the reflected projectile can halt enemy approaches when they hit. PSI Magnet only heals. So having faster/cancel psi magnet is very very much ok and nothing like having a shine that does the same thing.

And really of all the energy projectile users there are the only ones it really does anything to are pit and falco. Characters like mario, luigi, pikachu, and lucario already had projectilles that were easily absorbed with psi magnet as it was. Falco already has enough going for him so messing up his blaster game isnt a big deal and pit having two reflectors ruins ness' pk flash game, so...

Don't use it offstage then? Buffing the magnet even further is just stupid. It wasn't a very big part of his game in the first place, so why did it need such a drastic buff? Ness isn't "complete overhaul" bad, he just needed some work.

No other move in the game, gives guaranteed healing. Having a move that recovers damage in a game where that ability is unique is a very valuable asset. Especially in 2v2.
In addition, comparing them in that respect is pointless, as the Magnet is not an offensive technique. Compare them in their effectiveness of dealing with projectiles however, and the Magnet easily comes out on top simply because it doesn't punish you for actually connecting. Hitting a Fox's reflector with a projectile has always been a good way to set him up for a hit, even in Melee when he had the option of jumping or wavedashing out after the stun instead of being forced to wait for the move to end.

Point being, we buffed a crappy move into a very good move for little to no reason. Ness didn't get camped nearly hard enough to warrant such a change. While I agree with speeding up the move, 3 frame startup is ridiculous. I'd try 10, maybe 15 frame startup. Then maybe throw in the

 

[timothyung]

How come the magnet would become a very good move after the buff? It only absorbs energy based projectiles... and push a little. I don't know if the start up time is a bit too fast but it definitely isn't very good. Also making it usable in air is only a fix.

 

[CountKaiser]

Just some frame data on Lucas' PSI magnet, Ness's PSI Magnet, and Fox's shine for reference.


Ness
PSI Magnet
Start up: 9
Absorbs: 10
Hits: 31
Ends: 46

Lucas
Psi Magnet:
hits:16 (earliest)
hitlag:11
ends:38

Fox
Reflector/Shine
Hit: 3
Hitlag: 10
Total: 20

I got these from their respective frame data threads. I can look more intensely into Lucas' Psi Magnet to see when it starts to absorb.

 

[Deleted member]

Add taunt canceling. PK said he could do it

Ehm, did I?
then I would like to see a link to that post.

 

[timothyung]

Ehm, did I?
then I would like to see a link to that post.

Nah, it was leaf. Sorry for that, my memory went wrong
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7557659&postcount=482

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

How come the magnet would become a very good move after the buff? It only absorbs energy based projectiles... and push a little. I don't know if the start up time is a bit too fast but it definitely isn't very good. Also making it usable in air is only a fix.

My issue is that Ness got such a buff that was unnecessary, and turning a seldom used anti-camp move into a capable anti-projectile that heals him. The cancel buff was a great addition, but with a 3 frame startup as well it just seems a bit much.

The aerial fix wasn't my main issue, just the idea of buffing a move that I feel already got overbuffed.

 

[timothyung]

Because GW's bucket is also a similar move, we should also compare them.
Frame Data taken from the GW board

Collecting:
☼ begins collecting on frame 6
☼ minimum total time out without charge collecting: 50
☼ 13 cooldown (13 frames where the bucket is not out)
☼ after a charge is collected (when a bar fills up in the bucket, not the collecting animation) it takes 72 frames to shield

Although the bucket's startup is quick it receives a lot of lag when it absorbs something, but the magnet can be canceled. So 9 frames of startup lag for the magnet should be reasonable.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, it was leaf. Sorry for that, my memory went wrong
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7557659&postcount=482

ah that post. that should be possible to make. give me a few minutes

 

[JCaesar]

Dammit I missed all the conversation about the sandbag. <3 sandbag, he adds so much to that stage. People just need to get over the "item" stigma, since the sandbag is literally nothing more than a Luigi's Mansion pillar that you can hit around.

 

[Deleted member]

ok that failed, since the super code only allows what kind of move you can cancel the previous with.

 

[timothyung]

So you can't edit it so only taunts are able to be canceled? That's bad. Though I'm pretty sure it could be done.
Victory pose canceling would also be interesting. You know what I mean.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Hitting a Fox's reflector with a projectile has always been a good way to set him up for a hit, even in Melee when he had the option of jumping or wavedashing out after the stun instead of being forced to wait for the move to end.

FYI, hitting Fox's reflector with a projectile has the opposite effect in Melee as it does in Brawl. In Melee, during the "reflecting" animation, he's locked into his shine, unable to jump out or do anything until that animation ends. During this moment, he's a sitting duck. So this is indeed a legit tactic in Melee. But in Brawl, during the "reflecting" animation, he's able to jump/roll/spot-dodge to cancel it (the same thing applies to Wolf's shine and the two PSI Magnets). So doing this tactic in Brawl actually gives him MORE options; so how is it a "good way to set him up for a hit"? But I'm just pointing that out.

Regardless of the preceeding paragraph, I do think that he doesn't need to have less lag on PSI Magnet again. It's been buffed enough as is, but to bring back the stall (which isn't all that important, anyway) as well? To compensate for the move being so good, not being able to use it while recovering should at least exist; there needs to be something to slightly balance it out.
After more time to test things, Ness has received probably more than he should (f-air is rediculously good now), so there's no need for the speed-up of the absorb animation. Think of the loss of the air-stall being a natural trade-off. The ability to heal has such a big impact on the game, especially if it's quick and un-punishable as this... So with that, this trade-off is definitely worth it.
Also, not only that, but at the moment, speeding up his absorbing animation is taking up a line in the Frame Speed Mod Data code that could go to something else that needs/deserves it more.

 

[timothyung]

Just a random information, do you know why the characters can dodge out of their reflect/absorb animations? Try Curry Brawl in Special Brawl, and make both characters use their reflectors/absorbers. They can't move unless they dodge out of it.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

is it just me or does 4.2 Genesis flat out don't work.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

FYI, hitting Fox's reflector with a projectile has the opposite effect in Melee as it does in Brawl. In Melee, during the "reflecting" animation, he's locked into his shine, unable to jump out or do anything until that animation ends. During this moment, he's a sitting duck. So this is indeed a legit tactic in Melee. But in Brawl, during the "reflecting" animation, he's able to jump/roll/spot-dodge to cancel it (the same thing applies to Wolf's shine and the two PSI Magnets). So doing this tactic in Brawl actually gives him MORE options; so how is it a "good way to set him up for a hit"? But I'm just pointing that out.

Well, that's what I get for posting at 5 in the morning. xD

I apologize for my misinformation.

 

[proteininja]

FYI, hitting Fox's reflector with a projectile has the opposite effect in Melee as it does in Brawl. In Melee, during the "reflecting" animation, he's locked into his shine, unable to jump out or do anything until that animation ends. During this moment, he's a sitting duck. So this is indeed a legit tactic in Melee. But in Brawl, during the "reflecting" animation, he's able to jump/roll/spot-dodge to cancel it (the same thing applies to Wolf's shine and the two PSI Magnets). So doing this tactic in Brawl actually gives him MORE options; so how is it a "good way to set him up for a hit"? But I'm just pointing that out.

Regardless of the preceeding paragraph, I do think that he doesn't need to have less lag on PSI Magnet again. It's been buffed enough as is, but to bring back the stall (which isn't all that important, anyway) as well? To compensate for the move being so good, not being able to use it while recovering should at least exist; there needs to be something to slightly balance it out.
After more time to test things, Ness has received probably more than he should (f-air is rediculously good now), so there's no need for the speed-up of the absorb animation. Think of the loss of the air-stall being a natural trade-off. The ability to heal has such a big impact on the game, especially if it's quick and un-punishable as this... So with that, this trade-off is definitely worth it.
Also, not only that, but at the moment, speeding up his absorbing animation is taking up a line in the Frame Speed Mod Data code that could go to something else that needs/deserves it more.

How about a god aweful recovery?

Does that balance it out?

The stall is necessary otherwise in high level play Ness would NEVER get back to the stage against a skilled edgeguarder. He needs it for mindgames. Not to absorb.

 

[Finns7]

Some thoughts on 7/10

Bowsers bthrow... D:
Its not OP, but it doesnt look or feel right. Just a tad too much juice. Why is koopa so floaty?

Ganon

His choke should be techable. A damage buff would be better. It feels so automated. choke<ftilt<game or choke< techroll behind into fsmash perfectly predicted, is a more exciting and more enjoyable outcome to me. I just want the defensive player to have options, they can still get punished and totally mindraped if there playing a skilled player. His upb should be looked at also. He is the king of Evil xD...it looks badass but the after effect is weakage.

Link and Tlink's upb's feel a tad floaty. Tlink I understand but link no. His animation should be a tad faster. There are times when I nair offstage and connect, only to watch _______< character's upbeat reach the ledge before mine.
His arrows arnt the best for onstage. In vbrawl they could be used to start jab locks/force get ups but since the animation has been sped up there of no real use. A tad bit more kb, sometimes making there target trip or more damage are all things I think would be good to test.
As far as changing grab kb Id be pretty careful. Links dthrow in melee was legit, in brawl+ it has pretty good uses. I dont think he needs something that automated or any char. Links grab is more risky than others because he has no real legit setups for it. jab jab grab really isnt that good if you know the matchup (most dont play good links ) And if you miss a grab its gg's against a good opponent. Also the fact that he cant grab arieal foes should grant him the ability to recieve a slight grab buff preferably up and down. But nothing to were its too easy or gives the defense NO options.
(cough zelda vs fastfallers upthrow cough).
Luigis mansion change upsets me internally. The no mansion was one of the best changes in brawl+ to me. It starts out a mansion but crumbles away as the match starts out as the 2 fighters begin, mansion falling to the ground basically showing brawl+ battles mean business no gimmicks, looks like some dbz type stuff really. Mansion seems more "party" game to me. The only thing bad was in teams people started too close. Just ban it in teams or make a button for normal mansion or no mansion. Mansion in 1v1 would probably promote hella stalling and hella camping and hella gay **** overall.

Sandbag In wifi room doesnt look legit. Would the makers of SF or any other serious fighter do some dumb **** like that? Like with mansion maybe have a button to choose a different version. Forgive me of my ignorance if its in there or if its possible.

Overall I did not like many changes except for the hitlag change.

sorry for the character stuff, I havnt been active on the boards in so long, so if I broke a rule I am sorry.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Some thoughts on 7/10

Bowsers bthrow... D:
Its not OP, but it doesnt look or feel right. Just a tad too much juice. Why is koopa so floaty?

Ganon

His choke should be techable. A damage buff would be better. It feels so automated. choke<ftilt<game or choke< techroll behind into fsmash perfectly predicted, is a more exciting and more enjoyable outcome to me. I just want the defensive player to have options, they can still get punished and totally mindraped if there playing a skilled player. His upb should be looked at also. He is the king of Evil xD...it looks badass but the after effect is weakage.

Link and Tlink's upb's feel a tad floaty. Tlink I understand but link no. His animation should be a tad faster. There are times when I nair offstage and connect, only to watch _______< character's upbeat reach the ledge before mine.
His arrows arnt the best for onstage. In vbrawl they could be used to start jab locks/force get ups but since the animation has been sped up there of no real use. A tad bit more kb, sometimes making there target trip or more damage are all things I think would be good to test.
As far as changing grab kb Id be pretty careful. Links dthrow in melee was legit, in brawl+ it has pretty good uses. I dont think he needs something that automated or any char. Links grab is more risky than others because he has no real legit setups for it. jab jab grab really isnt that good if you know the matchup (most dont play good links ) And if you miss a grab its gg's against a good opponent. Also the fact that he cant grab arieal foes should grant him the ability to recieve a slight grab buff preferably up and down. But nothing to were its too easy or gives the defense NO options.
(cough zelda vs fastfallers upthrow cough).
Luigis mansion change upsets me internally. The no mansion was one of the best changes in brawl+ to me. It starts out a mansion but crumbles away as the match starts out as the 2 fighters begin, mansion falling to the ground basically showing brawl+ battles mean business no gimmicks, looks like some dbz type stuff really. Mansion seems more "party" game to me. The only thing bad was in teams people started too close. Just ban it in teams or make a button for normal mansion or no mansion. Mansion in 1v1 would probably promote hella stalling and hella camping and hella gay **** overall.

Sandbag In wifi room doesnt look legit. Would the makers of SF or any other serious fighter do some dumb **** like that? Like with mansion maybe have a button to choose a different version. Forgive me of my ignorance if its in there or if its possible.

Overall I did not like many changes except for the hitlag change.

sorry for the character stuff, I havnt been active on the boards in so long, so if I broke a rule I am sorry.

1.is bowser fell any faster, he wouldnt be able to claw hop; D:

2.speeding up link's up b animation wouldn't do anything to the floatiness of it

3.I agree about the Mansion thing

4.The sandbag is NOT dumb ****. I discourages projectile camping and forces you to use strategies other than the mainstream categories. And, it's not like it's that big of a deal anyway. Just walk through it. Jeez. >.>


P.S: FFFFFFFFFFFFFF (mostly) NINJA'D

 

[WheelOfFish]

I don't know if this would work, but could we give Zelda, Shiek, and Zelda/Shiek different spots on the CSS? As in, remove Zelda and Shiek's down-b for the individual characters, and leave it for the two together. Like with Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, and the PT having four different spots, and the individual Pokemon not having a down-b.

 

[timothyung]

No one will pick individual Zelda/Sheik then...No point on doing that

 

[jokey665]

I don't know if this would work, but could we give Zelda, Shiek, and Zelda/Shiek different spots on the CSS? As in, remove Zelda and Shiek's down-b for the individual characters, and leave it for the two together. Like with Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, and the PT having four different spots, and the individual Pokemon not having a down-b.

There's really no point in that. It worked for PT because picking PT forces you to use all three, but when you pick Zelda/Sheik you can play as just one of them if you want anyway. Unless you're suggesting Zelda/Sheik forces a change on death like PT? (Which is a horrible idea, btw.)