Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[PKNintendo]

Well, no offense but Lucas wasn't all that viable to start with. Let's look at vBrawl Lucas.

Sure if we remove the infinites, it may seem like godsend, but Lucas wasn't all too good to start with.
Apparently (IMO) Lucas is a balance of an aerial and ground character. But neither are all that great.

Matt without his buffs, Lucas just can't compete with the titans of Brawl. (Wario, MK, Snake, Olimar and the like)

Sad but true.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You seem to be the only person who thinks that he isn't viable, and I don't see why. He has plenty of good matchups, not every character has huge priority.

EDIT: I am in favor of him being buffed, do not forget. I'm arguing that he is VIABLE. As in it's not hopeless to win with him, or even just to do well with him. Also he has gotten a good amount of buffs since vBrawl PK.

 

[stingers]

umm i also think he isnt viable fyi

 

[PKNintendo]

You seem to be the only person who thinks that he isn't viable, and I don't see why. He has plenty of good matchups, not every character has huge priority.

Well, he also has plenty of bad matchups. Your only looking at the sunny side of things, you need to turn things around and look at the ugly things.

Lucas has a bunch of terrible characters, and while he may seem really good on paper, he doesn't exactly translate well. Im not saying he's bad, but he isn't altogether great either.


Brawl has 39+ characters. Don't forget about them too.


PS: Oh I totally hear you. Using Lucas doesn't mean auto loss.
FOW beating Tyrant with Ness is an example of this. But think about it. The amount of extra effort and practice you need to put into Lucas (to overcome his shortcomings) compared to your average tourney viable character is a bit much.

And It's a bit sad, but sometimes that extra practice doesn't cut it.

 

[stingers]

i've been saying for awhile lucas is a solid mid tier character. the wolf or pit of brawl+. hes better then vBrawl but he's not yet perfect.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah.

I can't wait until they complete him.

PS: Who is that in your avatar. I see it EVERYWHERE!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Stingers there's a big difference between mid tier and non-viable -_-

 

[stingers]

not really.

 

[Mattnumbers]

not really.

Maybe in vBrawl, but definitely not in Brawl+

 

[The Cape]

Because everyone secretly hates their mains lol

QFT

****ing Mario. Why do you suck V.V

 

[FrozenHobo]

Because everyone secretly hates their mains lol

its true. god **** you nana... i love you...

 

[PKNintendo]

We don't really hate them, but we wish they could better.

Imagine if Ness was top tier in vBrawl? We'd have millions of SBR's licking his heel.

 

[Yingyay]

We don't really hate them, but we wish they could better.

Imagine if Ness was top tier in vBrawl? We'd have millions of SBR's licking his heel.

See but if Ness was top tier I wouldnt use him........ever,. It'd be like the MK outbreak. Everyone knows he's broken, everyone knows he's gonna get banned and flamed, so a argument spanning the entirety of Brawl's lifetime is gonna erupt over weither or not Ness should get banned or not. See its never been like that for sheik, Zelda, wolf or ness so I'm good lol.

Although I secretly hate Sheik because her tether doesn't go across the entire stage and her upB doesn't just warp her to the stage with complete invincibility frames until she feels like losing it. Which is why when Bawl+ is finally finished imma work on a "Brawl -"
Everything that a player could want in their character (excessive brokenness)

Captain Falcon- the knee's sweetspot is gonna be so small that if he happens to land it, you get frozen , he does a falcon punch automatically and whle you're flying away he does his final smash. = instant win. 5000 stocks lost in a instant. Im not lying



So yea everyone hates their mains

 

[Nybb]

Screw the counter-pick system. Main a character till they become god-tier
(this coming from a person that mains two characters in one)

I dont even think kirby has good aerial range, its his priority that makes him so good.

Just for the record, priority is pretty much the same thing as range. There is actually no such thing as priority; or at least, it's not like each move has a "priority" stat right beside its knockback, KBG, etc. Attacks that appear to have high priority just have hitboxes that extend past their character's hurtboxes, which is what people mean by disjointedness.

Although I secretly hate Sheik because her tether doesn't go across the entire stage and her upB doesn't just warp her to the stage with complete invincibility frames until she feels like losing it. Which is why when Bawl+ is finally finished imma work on a "Brawl -"
Everything that a player could want in their character (excessive brokenness)

Captain Falcon- the knee's sweetspot is gonna be so small that if he happens to land it, you get frozen , he does a falcon punch automatically and whle you're flying away he does his final smash. = instant win. 5000 stocks lost in a instant. Im not lying

I would back this project. I propose that Kirby's utilt and bair can hit you regardless of where you are. That's right, even if you are dying off the front of the screen. And Falco should just emit a constant stream of lasers from his face, because pushing B is way too much tech skill. And don't forget to make it so that all of MK's moves actually cause him to do shuttle loop

 

[Mystic101]

I have one complaint about b+ still... fix diddys recovery, it gimps him madly now

 

[camelot]

I have one complaint about b+ still... fix diddys recovery, it gimps him madly now

Ness and Lucas say "hi".

 

[GreatFalco]

I have one complaint about b+ still... fix diddys recovery, it gimps him madly now

Agreed, his recovery is really lame. And this also keeps a good brawler friend of mine away of plus.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Hey guys.

Hey shanus: I do think that the absorb on psi magnet should be put back to where i had it set or at least sped up to 2.5x the current speed so that it works in the air. Also, TheCape told me about some ness throw changes you had plans for...i'd like to talk about that with you on AIM sometime.

Oh and for the record....I'm perfectly fine with a sandbag on WR if the camera can be fixed. Ya know what stages could make good neutrals maybe? All those Subspace Emissary stages(the ones where you fight the shadow characters)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness and Lucas say "hi".

Zap Jump says "**** you, Diddy". Then it jumps on a boat with Tether Recovery and Multiple PKT1s and rides off to the moon with T-Pain.

Lucas had no place in the bad recovery grouping in the first place. Now Ness doesn't either.

Hey guys.

Hey shanus: I do think that the absorb on psi magnet should be put back to where i had it set or at least sped up to 2.5x the current speed so that it works in the air. Also, TheCape told me about some ness throw changes you had plans for...i'd like to talk about that with you on AIM sometime.

Oh and for the record....I'm perfectly fine with a sandbag on WR if the camera can be fixed. Ya know what stages could make good neutrals maybe? All those Subspace Emissary stages(the ones where you fight the shadow characters)

I haven't really spent as much time as I'd like with the new Ness, but why does his Magnet need sped up? The thing comes out on frame 3 on the ground and can be immediately cancelled. Doesn't it take the shine 4 frames to come out, and it can't be cancelled?
Slow deactivation in the air is really the only thing keeping the Magnet balanced at all, in my opinion. And it can be cancelled upon landing anyway.


Ness is not nearly bad enough to have an unpunishable projectile killer. Especially not after the massive string of (arguably unneeded) buffs he's received.

 

[proteininja]

If diddy didn't have a bad recovery he would be a freakin monster. He has great air and ground games. He needs to suck at something.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If diddy didn't have a bad recovery he would be a freakin monster. He has great air and ground games. He needs to suck at something.

I agree.

Just saying that Ness and Lucas do not have bad recoveries, and justifying Diddy's awful recovery by comparing it to the PSIkids' is an awful reason. Lucas' was decent to begin with and Ness' was actually buffed to the point of having a good recovery in a weird, double standard sort of way.

 

[Revven]

I have one complaint about b+ still... fix diddys recovery, it gimps him madly now

Agreed, his recovery is really lame. And this also keeps a good brawler friend of mine away of plus.

This shows you two know nothing about balance of a character. If Diddy could snap ledges again with his Up B, there would not be a single con to using Diddy, ever (well except for being light and possibly having a hard time to kill but the second one isn't even a big deal anymore due to no stale moves). He's technically one of the best right now in my opinion and if he could snap ledges again like he does in Brawl then he'd probably be considered top 5 if not that top 3 because then it would be much harder to gimp Diddy and as it is in Brawl, hardly ANYONE goes offstage to knock Diddy out of his Up B because of the rocket barrels and because he canp sweetspot the ledge.

It's a weakness much like it is for DK. It's not changing, if you don't like it that's tough, don't use Diddy OR use Diddy and learn to snap the edge properly (because get this? He still can, it just takes *GASP* SKILL!)

 

[Learn2Luigi]

Perhaps instead of autosnapping the ledge he could get a little more distance from his ^b?
This might help their recovery woes.

 

[5ive]

If he ever DOES get an up b buff, I would see it being able to ride up the walls of FD. Similar to the effect of Melee Fox/Falco's up b on FD.

 

[Jimbo_G]

That's the problem though. Doing anything like that to Diddy's recovery or any of the other bad-recovery characters would completely over-power them. Their recoveries are bad BECAUSE THEY EXCEL at (mostly) everything else!

Without a bad recovery there would be very little stopping Diddy and other similar characters from just destroying the cast.

 

[slikvik]

I don't think anything diddys upB needs to be changed. He should probably just have his normal aerial mobilty afterwards so he can grab the ledge

 

[Plum]

That's the problem though. Doing anything like that to Diddy's recovery or any of the other bad-recovery characters would completely over-power them. Their recoveries are bad BECAUSE THEY EXCEL at (mostly) everything else!

Without a bad recovery there would be very little stopping Diddy and other similar characters from just destroying the cast.

Well I don't know about you, but I want Fox, Falco, Diddy, Squirtle and the like to have MK recovery.

/sarcasm :V

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm curious, and don't take this the wrong way, because I seriously don't know the answer, but what are Luigi's weaknesses? He's got a beastly recovery (sure, up-b is predictable, but he's got more than that going for his recovery), he is barely affected by hitstun, he is incredible at comboing, has ridiculous priority on a lot of his moves, great set-ups on grabs, great air and ground game, decent gimping abilities, small model, decent weight for his size... if anything, the biggest problems are that his up-b and dash attack are punishable. The fireballs aren't that great for much aside from interrupting approaches, but still.

Been playing with Peach more, and I really appreciate her comboing abilities. Obviously her only reliable killer is still her f-air (Brawl+ really helped her out since move decay doesn't apply), which is a good thing. Peach would be broken if she had a lot of killing options. My biggest complaint is that, due to higher gravity and faster falling, she's not so good at gimping... in fact, doing an f-air off the stage without floating can result in SDing. Though Peach has a great horizontal recovery, I think her vertical recovery should be improved. Not necessarily by much though.

 

[timothyung]

Luigi's main weakness is his range. Other than that he's a very good character especially with his relatively small hitstun and nair as a combo breaker. We'll make he receive longer hitstun once we get a character specific hitstun division modifier. Then he'll be comboed more easily, and shouldn't be too strong.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Peach is fine as she is. Her recovery is perfect enough as it is; if you made it better it would just be broken.

 

[Sudai]

Wheel, Peach used her float to edge guard very well in Melee, I imagine the same would hold true in B+ with her great DAir, BAir, and NAir so your worries are baseless.

 

[WheelOfFish]

It's probably more of a buffer issue (aka, me trying to do a f-smash and doing a f-air off the stage). Anything below 40% feels bad to me with other characters, but I might try lowering it when I use Peach.

 

[iLink]

Has anyone else gotten freezing during the character select screen? Mine keeps freezing when someone tries to set their handicap.

 

[Revven]

Do you have textures + menu music? (Custom music) If so, that is why it freezes, too much streaming.

 

[iLink]

Do you have textures + menu music? (Custom music) If so, that is why it freezes, too much streaming.

I only have about 4 stage textures and the menu music with 3 or 4 other stage songs. Would it resolve the problem if I just took out the menu music?

 

[Revven]

Most likely.

 

[iLink]

Ah alright thanks its working now without freezing.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Zap Jump says "**** you, Diddy". Then it jumps on a boat with Tether Recovery and Multiple PKT1s and rides off to the moon with T-Pain.

Lucas had no place in the bad recovery grouping in the first place. Now Ness doesn't either.



I haven't really spent as much time as I'd like with the new Ness, but why does his Magnet need sped up? The thing comes out on frame 3 on the ground and can be immediately cancelled. Doesn't it take the shine 4 frames to come out, and it can't be cancelled?
Slow deactivation in the air is really the only thing keeping the Magnet balanced at all, in my opinion. And it can be cancelled upon landing anyway.


Ness is not nearly bad enough to have an unpunishable projectile killer. Especially not after the massive string of (arguably unneeded) buffs he's received.

When Ness uses psi magnet in the air he falls the entire length of his double jump before he can drop it. Using psi magnet in the air offstage is pretty much suicide if you actually absorb something.

EDIT: also, shine is far superior tactically to the magnet. Not only does shine prevent u from getting hit, it also has a close range attack, it hurts the opponent via reflected projectile, and the reflected projectile can halt enemy approaches when they hit. PSI Magnet only heals. So having faster/cancel psi magnet is very very much ok and nothing like having a shine that does the same thing.

And really of all the energy projectile users there are the only ones it really does anything to are pit and falco. Characters like mario, luigi, pikachu, and lucario already had projectilles that were easily absorbed with psi magnet as it was. Falco already has enough going for him so messing up his blaster game isnt a big deal and pit having two reflectors ruins ness' pk flash game, so...

 

[Yingyay]

Yo shouldnt this thread be stickied now that I think about it?

 

[leafgreen386]

Although I originally posted this in the falco thread, I feel it's much more relevant here.

I made this post after watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bmowl-J88s

Thunderhorse could've just sat on the other side of the sandbag in the beginning and waited for you to approach, since he was in the lead at that point. Ironically, it seems the sandbag will only encourage camping, rather than reduce it. Trying to approach through it and suffering the extra hitlag seems to put you at the disadvantage, giving the opponent extra time to respond to your approach and to counter appropriately. The sandbag most certainly reduces projectile effectiveness, but it encourages camping more than any other legal brawl+ stage imo.

Yeah... I don't think we wanted to encourage camping when we made this game, but I largely see this stage becoming a game of tag for whoever can get a damage lead on the opponent, forcing them to approach through the sandbag.

Yo shouldnt this thread be stickied now that I think about it?

Nah. It gets posted in regularly enough it doesn't need it.