Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Rion]

So like, Zelda's Jab is pretty great at actually getting all the hits in now. Rather than getting some whiff-alicious action going on.

Although it still has those moments where if you hit at the very edge of the attack, it'll just stun them with almost no hit stun and put you in a bad position... but honestly, if you just take one step forward, all the hits go back to connecting again. Not that big an issue.

Hell, it even hits the small people now like Meta Knight and co.! Though I need to play around with it some more. But overall, it definitely seems more reliable.

I gotta say though, from what I've been readin' about what people are saying about Zelda, it's a little surprising.

In no way is Din's Fire ever, ever, EVER, to be considered a spammable projectile. No one is allowed to think otherwise unless you -want- to get punished beyond belief or just get no where.

- 2 frame lingering hitbox only = sucks. A lot. Sure it's got a pretty big blast radius (er, if it's traveled far enough first of all), but honestly once you get hit by it a few times, it becomes second nature to dodge it properly. It's not like it's hard either. 2 frames of hitbox gives you a pretty lenient dodge window.

- How can it ever be considered spammable considering it's frame data? This is if you just let Din's Fire burst as quickly as possible if you do it:

Startup: 1-30 <<<<
Hitbox: 31-32
Cooldown: 33-56 <<<<
IASA: 57

Not only is it pretty easy to see it coming out, but there are just so many ways to punish Zelda because of how vulnerable she is throughout the whole thing. Airdodging towards her, rolling towards her, or just approaching with some sort of aerial / attack will almost always cancel out the burst anyways. Hell, if you hit her before the burst actually happens, she loses control over the fireball and it just mindlessly flies forward in whatever direction it was headed in until it reaches max distance/hits an obstacle then explodes in some useless, faraway spot.

Honestly, Din's Fire is actually a very risky move unless your opponent is extremely far away from you. Like, REALLY far. You'd be surprised how far your opponent has to be sometimes for it to be safely executed.

Now compare it to something like Falco's Lasers, now that's spammable.

Zelda's Din's Fire? Spammable, no. Slow start up, slow ending, extremely easy and punishable when dodged. Hardly spammable in any effective way.

I think I really needed to make this distinction between "spammable" and "not really spammable at all". Because saying Zelda's Din's Fire is a spammable projectile is way off target. Don't even go there. Don't even think about it. Just no!

And as for Nayru's Love:

Nayru's Love doesn't kill, do good damage, come out quickly, wind down quickly, have overlapping invincibility and attack frames, have good air range, blah blah blah. . .

. . . blah blah blah:

- easy to bait and cause a premature activation, in which the opponent will just hit you with the charged projectile anyway because of it's awful ending lag frames.

Reflects: 5-44
Cooldown: 29-59
Completely Vulnerable to Projectiles: 45-60

About 16 frames. That's like, Zelda's start up of Fsmash.

- Because it's only a temporary reflector, most spammable projectiles just hit anyway after the reflect frames are gone. Or, they just fire off another projectile and it also just hits anyway.

- Completely, and utterly safe on block. There is virtually no shield push back or eating of shield, sorely asking to get punished with almost any moderately fast OoS option.

- You will ALWAYS get the short end of the stick if you trade hits. Your opponent does 10% to you, and guess what? You did 1~2% back.

- Blah blah blah, fails utterly as a reflector/attack/anything/potato, blah blah, blah, blah blah.

- Blah. Failure.

I'm tired and apologize for this long-winded post.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I would say after watching Ryoko play for like 2 hours on a live stream that Dins isn't "spammable" but it's no way near as unsafe as you make it out to be.

 

[proteininja]

*cough* Take out footstools *cough*

 

[stingers]

...why do people bring that up xd

 

[shanus]

I suppose now's as good a time to ask as any.

Now that we're getting individual hitstun and a more robust launch power modifier, is there any reason to keep the dgrav modifier? Why not just stay with overall gravity to tweak character gravity settings, and use the dgrav slot for something else, like character weight?

Increasing dgrav separately from overall grav is what makes jumps in Brawl+ feel so awkward at the moment (characters fall considerably faster than they rise). The only reason we've had to rely on it for so long is because increasing overall grav on some characters has detrimental effects on their recoveries, and thus dgrav is increased to halfway speed them up, as well as for making characters like Bowser slightly floatier in order to decrease their comboability.

But with the new codes, both concerns will effectively be non-issues. And so, instead of increasing dgrav, we can opt to increase fgrav, and adjust jumps, short hops, and recoveries to compensate for added ugrav, resulting in faster jumps that are consistent on the way up and down, not to mention we would now rely on individual hitstun settings instead of dgrav to handle comboability.

Getting rid of dgrav would leave us with two unused slots on the Jump/Grav Values code. I propose the dgrav slot be refitted into handling weight modifications, while the other one could be used for individual hitstun or friction.

Any objections?

Heh, I wish you knew the layout for the new engine format before youw rote that post. We removed the character ID at the start and fixed up a bit of stuff, so we actually have a slot for friction, dash speed, AND individual hitstun.

 

[Alphatron]

Well, when I said Spear Pillar wasn't competitive, I meant tourney wise. Taking out the pokemon doesn't remove the loop which was one of the reasons the stage was banned anyway. It's kind of like removing the Ultimate Chimera from Porky's platforms and expecting the stage to get any better. I'm mostly casual myself and Spear Pillar isn't my favorite stage, but still. It may be good in friendlies because you aren't playing to win.

And yeah, I admit that I forgot about the difference in death boundaries. >_>

Edit: Unfortunately, I can't test anything atm, but Snake's first ftilt hit IS techable, right? I'm pretty sure it is, but a friend of mine mentioned something about the first hit only being a lock on certain heavy characters to about 100%+. I don't think he's accurate but...

 

[Eight 52]

The Yoshi super armor frames start on 1 and end at 71/72. Not sure which exactly.

 

[shanus]

My yoshi footstool cancel idea (cancel with an air dodge immediately after the footstool tumble to refresh double jump) works

 

[Yingyay]

So what happens when you hit yoshi before he lands? Does he get his second jump back still?

 

[timothyung]

Is it possible to simply make Yoshi not enter the being footstooled animation during his DJ?

 

[Yingyay]

^Nah that would be unfair for the rest of cast. No matter how bad yoshi may need it.

 

[shanus]

Is it possible to simply make Yoshi not enter the being footstooled animation during his DJ?

Yeah, but thats a cop out change to a character weakness. All this current change does is the following:

If Yoshi has been footstooled and is in the footstool tumble state, if he buffers an air dodge, that air dodge will be replaced with the jump refresh state so that he can rejump again. If you don't buffer that air dodge, you do NOT get your jump back.

 

[Yingyay]

I can just imagine yoshi players spamming air-dodge as soon as they see someone coming after them in the air. lol

 

[Revven]

Hey I mean it's adding skill to Yoshi, so I'm all for it. =P

 

[Yingyay]

Dude........you not edward aleric anymore? T_T
Umm i noticed that Ness's magnet stays out a little bit longer....is it just me or has it always been like that?

 

[GPDP]

Heh, I wish you knew the layout for the new engine format before youw rote that post. We removed the character ID at the start and fixed up a bit of stuff, so we actually have a slot for friction, dash speed, AND individual hitstun.

That's actually pretty cool. Can't wait to try the new engine!

Still, the point stands. What's the point of keeping dgrav around? IMO it's a relic from an earlier time when our physics balancing tools were limited, and we could not increase ugrav for obvious reasons, so we made do with increasing dgrav alone to speed characters up. But it's resulted in wonky character physics, not to mention it makes it harder to calculate the proper fast fall speed.

Get rid of it, and add a weight modifier, I say.

 

[shanus]

That's actually pretty cool. Can't wait to try the new engine!

Still, the point stands. What's the point of keeping dgrav around? IMO it's a relic from an earlier time when our physics balancing tools were limited, and we could not increase ugrav for obvious reasons, so we made do with increasing dgrav alone to speed characters up. But it's resulted in wonky character physics, not to mention it makes it harder to calculate the proper fast fall speed.

Get rid of it, and add a weight modifier, I say.

DownGrav and FF don't multiply, only full grav and FF speed multiply. Also, removing the ability to edit downgrav would make character physics behaivors such as wolf impossible with only the possession of fullgrav. It doesn't make sense to remove it and fail to see how its a relic of the past in that regard. Eespecially because dGrav is versatile in that it effects both normal fall speed and tumble speed instead of just everything in one variable.

 

[Swordplay]

Don't like that idea SMK
There is no way to tell while in play if you were able to buffer a move in time until you see the results.....

People would be just spamming AD and then jump all day long...

Just Time your AD and recover higher...........People were right when they told me to just AD

( Forgive my previous Yoshi analysis on not having instant momentum, I was playing too much melee yoshi and stupidly applied melee theory to brawl)

If people still get nuts about this topic though, I would try to use the conditional action modifier to do something like "If the character has super armor, He/she cannot be footstooled?" (I think CAM can do this)

 

[cAm8ooo]

(I think CAM can do this)

It's true. I can do anything.....

I like the idea. Provides a little bit of skill, perhaps you can make it have a window where you cant just spam airdodge?

 

[Plum]

Somebody enlighten me here.

Whatever happened to Yoshi only using his DJ if he absolutely needed and airdoging through the possibility of anything, whether attack or footstool, hitting Yoshi out of it when that moment did pop up?

 

[_clinton]

Just throwing a single egg usually gives Yoshi enough horizontal distance in vBrawl...but I'm not sure how it will work in Brawl+

Dude........you not edward aleric anymore? T_T
Umm i noticed that Ness's magnet stays out a little bit longer....is it just me or has it always been like that?

It isn't just you...the whole cancel magnet at anytime bit was done by making Ness go through the "absorb" animation all the time while the move is on...going through the "absorb" animation takes time to do if you don't do anything during it...and the frame rate for it makes the move appear 2 times...

This causes a few things to happen...

-Ness can't stall his fall anymore...because in the air the move lasts longer than normal because you have to go through 2 clicks of the absorb animation
-If Ness does absorb something in the air...the timer resets itself from what I've seen...so he is ****ed if he absorbs something over a ledge...

I think the move could be fixed if the move was made to work the same way Sonic's side special works...in that you can freely cancel it at the start of the move...

 

[PKNintendo]

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3151956

 

[Yingyay]

Just throwing a single egg usually gives Yoshi enough horizontal distance in vBrawl...but I'm not sure how it will work in Brawl+



It isn't just you...the whole cancel magnet at anytime bit was done by making Ness go through the "absorb" animation all the time while the move is on...going through the "absorb" animation takes time to do if you don't do anything during it...and the frame rate for it makes the move appear 2 times...

This causes a few things to happen...

-Ness can't stall his fall anymore...because in the air the move lasts longer than normal because you have to go through 2 clicks of the absorb animation
-If Ness does absorb something in the air...the timer resets itself from what I've seen...so he is ****ed if he absorbs something over a ledge...

I think the move could be fixed if the move was made to work the same way Sonic's side special works...in that you can freely cancel it at the start of the move...

Or just bring it back to what t used to be and make it cancelable at any time after i guess thee 3rd frame of the move? Just a suggestion.

 

[Slashy]

I still did suggest some other buffs for Yoshi.

1. Egglay has a larger hitbox for mindgames and gimping.

2. Double Jump always has super armor

3. Egg throw has little ending lag.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I'm all for trying shanus' idea just to see what it plays like, you can't really know until you try it in a REAL match.

 

[shanus]

It works and recoups all of the distance lost during the footstool and a tidbit more. Means your still in worse shape becuase you were footstooled, but not boned.

 

[Revven]

I still did suggest some other buffs for Yoshi.

1. Egglay has a larger hitbox for mindgames and gimping.

2. Double Jump always has super armor

3. Egg throw has little ending lag.

1. Its hitbox is already big enough...

2. Not really tackling any problems.

3. Doesn't need to be done if he's getting the other things we're giving him.

 

[leafgreen386]

I personally don't think it's particularly fair to give yoshi a buff that alleviates a character weakness in regards to a universal mechanic being altered... just for him. I could see implementing this rejump feature for everyone or no one at all, but giving just yoshi this footstool resistance (when he was previously the character hit hardest by footstools) is not a good idea imo. I'm actually pretty hesitant on implementing it to everyone, too. I mean, you may as well just remove footstools entirely if you're going to offer a way to make them essentially worthless. The teching code eliminated a lot of the footstool combos of vbrawl, making them most useful offstage now, in edgeguarding. But if you're going to implement a counter, then people will use them just as often as if you had just taken them out completely... never. Oh wait, they would still use it occasionally - on accident.

We really only have two options for footstools... 1) revamp them completely or 2) leave them alone. Anything in the middle would just end up sloppy and probably useless.

I have a question regarding future nightly builds: Can we expect to see a code that makes recovering from spikes more difficult (or impossible in some scenarios)? As it stands now, there's little to no reward for landing a spike (which is generally difficult to land) as the enemy can easily spam Up+B and instantly recover from the spike. Now I wouldn't mind, but spikes are tactically implemented kill moves, the key word being "kill." They're supposed to be finishers--- or have been known to be, yet they are so easily countered. Countering them isn't a matter of skill, as spike can be seen coming, and once this is the case, the player can spam until they counter it. This is particularly problematic for characters like Falco who rely on said moves to kill. Aside from spiking the enemy, his other more reliably kill move is Bair. It'd be nice if his spike was more difficult to circumvent.

I do recall seeing some mention that a code was wanted to fix this... is there still a want for such a code? What do you guys think?

Spikes are generally still effective at higher percents as at least the person plummets faster.

We have indeed wanted a code for harder MCs for quite a while now. We need to discuss it again, though, to figure out exactly what we want to do with it.

Then people will start asking, "why is my handicap set to 100%?", then you say that it's just setting the buffer to how it is in Brawl, then they'll ask, "what's buffer?" Then you are back having to explain what buffer is (unless you take the rude approach and say, "it's nothing; just play!!") XD

As for the meteor smash/spikes, I personally think it's a little strong. Isn't it even easier to meteor cancel in Melee? (But I could be wrong...)

Unless your name was jigglypuff or kirby, you had to actually time your MCs in melee. If you tried to jump or upB before the window opened, it didn't open. So mashing upB to get out of a meteor would just result in you getting killed and then subsequently laughed at. However, jiggs and kirby cheated this method. As long as they had used at least one midair jump, they could simply hold the jump button when they get hit and it will automatically MC on the first frame possible. In brawl, pressing upB or jump before the MC window opens will simply result in your action getting buffered if you have buffer on. There is no punishment for performing the action too early. Although I don't think brawl has the auto-MC with multijumpers that melee had, thankfully. That said, two of the top characters had true spikes, which while powerful, I don't think many would argue were broken. As such, you ended up frequently seeing spikes and rarely seeing meteors in high level melee play, so you didn't see very many meteor cancels, either, making the mechanic far less important.

I wish I could literally just texture hack the Character Selection Screen and replace handicap with buffer.

( Probably impossible but it would be great )

What's this word? "Impossible." I don't think our coders know the definition of that term, especially PW, who created the dynamic SD loader, capable of replacing any file on the disc now. Texture hacking the CSS would just be a matter of getting a texture hacker to actually... do it.

 

[MK26]

My yoshi footstool cancel idea (cancel with an air dodge immediately after the footstool tumble to refresh double jump) works

thats a cop-out...every character is susceptible to attacks while recoverin, except for yoshi. Why does yoshi have to be immune to footstools too? if i play as Kirby, and dair-->footstool my opponent, why should yoshi be the only character that gets his double jump back?

 

[timothyung]

Maybe make Yoshi immune to footstools during the start up of his DJ, like 30 frames (just throwing out a time) of immunity. This doesn't remove the character weakness but only make it not as bad.
And I don't really like meteor cancel. It's just like vBrawl's momentum cancel, and hurts meteor smashes a lot. Make it take longer time before one can MC maybe.

 

[Plum]

I honestly don't see the problem with footstools and Yoshi.

Did Yoshi magically loose the ability to be smart about his double jump, and DJ + airdodge through any potential attack or footstool in the transition to B+?
Correct me if I'm wrong there.

There are characters who would kill for Yoshi's recovery. He has the fastest horizontal air movement in the game, which coupled with the little hop on his Up B is usually all he needs to get back on stage, unless sent below stage. And in that situation he has a MASSIVE double jump which has heavy armor, and the ability to use it's momentum as a fast airdodge getting him through any trouble. Now he even has the Side B refresh for those times where he is knocked back off stage after using his double jump already; while the Side B does cancel out a lot of the height of his DJ, it doesn't leave him helpless if he is knocked back out.

Is his recovery predictable? Yes, but not many characters are blessed with recovery mixups. Even among those who can mixup their recovery, it is still more often than not a bad recovery anyways. Characters like Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, Squirtle, and Link have more than one recovery option but are still left with very gimpable and generally bad recoveries. Point is, his recovery gets the job done.

There is a big difference between those characters and Yoshi though. They all excel at something onstage that makes them powerful characters despite recovery issues.
Fox is a combo machine with reliable kill options.
Squirtle has a powerful combo game, gimp game and kill options.
Falco is a wall of lasers, and combo options.
Wolf has a great juggle game along with one of the best (the best?) combo breakers in the game.
Ike has so much range and power, which coupled with the increased speed ALR gives his game makes a deadly character.
Link has a spectacular zoning game, which when you take into account his sword, Zair, and projectiles, you have a character who is deadly at close range, mid range, and long range.

What does Yoshi have? He seems to be Mr. Average in every category. Pretty good projectile, but there are better (I would take lasers any day). Pretty good grab game, but there's better (Prolimar says hi). Decent combos, but there's definitely better (Fox, Sheik, Squirtle etc). Decent kill options, but there are better and more reliable out there (Wario and Fox really come to mind). Pretty good approach options, but there's better (projectile approaches, or characters who just have more range like Marth). Good survivability, factoring in weight, maneuverability, and recovery distance, but there is better (Wario is really the only one who pops into my head... he probably has the highest in the game).

Somebody who was in a similar situation to Yoshi was Link not too long ago. Decent in plenty of areas, but always outshined, coupled with a trash recovery. I think we all would agree that turning Link into an onstage monster (seriously... who would imagine Link being good?) was a much better move than if we fixed his recovery problems.
I think the same should apply to Yoshi. I have no idea what the WBR has in store for him, but I would much rather have a character who shines in certain aspects enough to cancel out a poor recovery (one that already serves its purpose just fine if the player isn't an idiot about it).

Spoiler

Though I will say its very cool that Shanus was able to create that. I love the kind of things that are actually possible to code in B+.

 

[Eight 52]

There are characters who would kill for Yoshi's recovery. He has the fastest horizontal air movement in the game, which coupled with the little hop on his Up B is usually all he needs to get back on stage, unless sent below stage. And in that situation he has a MASSIVE double jump which has heavy armor, and the ability to use it's momentum as a fast airdodge getting him through any trouble. Now he even has the Side B refresh for those times where he is knocked back off stage after using his double jump already; while the Side B does cancel out a lot of the height of his DJ, it doesn't leave him helpless if he is knocked back out.

First off, Jigglypuff is actually the fastest, Yoshi is second. Second, If Yoshi is sent below the stage, he's screwed. Just hug the ledge and either A) footstool or B) rehug the edge and laugh at the egg toss. By the time Side B starts up and ends, Yoshi is below where he started, making the move pretty worthless recovery wise.

Reasons for removal of footstool on the A frames
1)More recovery options
2)Better ledge hop besides Egging away.
3)SA shouldn't be stopped by a poke. That defeats the purpose of it.
4)Increase the ability to gimp


3 is another reason people miss. Yoshi can easily gimp most characters with a Dair. Unfortunately, people can actually footstool Yoshi even though Yoshi is above them. So in essence, Yoshi spikes himself while trying to do a simple edgeguard. While fair and nair are other moves Yoshi can use, Fair is generally hard to hit and Nair can send an opponent upwards. Since Yoshi has not alot of power, as I've said before, I believe he should be able to at least psuedo gimp, as opposed to getting laughed at for going off the edge.

 

[timothyung]

lol Yoshi is the fastest, Jiggz is second

 

[Eight 52]

lol Yoshi is the fastest, Jiggz is second

I suck at life then >_>

 

[Swordplay]

I honestly don't see the problem with footstools and Yoshi.

Did Yoshi magically loose the ability to be smart about his double jump, and DJ + airdodge through any potential attack or footstool in the transition to B+?
Correct me if I'm wrong there.

There are characters who would kill for Yoshi's recovery. He has the fastest horizontal air movement in the game, which coupled with the little hop on his Up B is usually all he needs to get back on stage, unless sent below stage. And in that situation he has a MASSIVE double jump which has heavy armor, and the ability to use it's momentum as a fast airdodge getting him through any trouble. Now he even has the Side B refresh for those times where he is knocked back off stage after using his double jump already; while the Side B does cancel out a lot of the height of his DJ, it doesn't leave him helpless if he is knocked back out.

Is his recovery predictable? Yes, but not many characters are blessed with recovery mixups. Even among those who can mixup their recovery, it is still more often than not a bad recovery anyways. Characters like Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, Squirtle, and Link have more than one recovery option but are still left with very gimpable and generally bad recoveries. Point is, his recovery gets the job done.

There is a big difference between those characters and Yoshi though. They all excel at something onstage that makes them powerful characters despite recovery issues.
Fox is a combo machine with reliable kill options.
Squirtle has a powerful combo game, gimp game and kill options.
Falco is a wall of lasers, and combo options.
Wolf has a great juggle game along with one of the best (the best?) combo breakers in the game.
Ike has so much range and power, which coupled with the increased speed ALR gives his game makes a deadly character.
Link has a spectacular zoning game, which when you take into account his sword, Zair, and projectiles, you have a character who is deadly at close range, mid range, and long range.

What does Yoshi have? He seems to be Mr. Average in every category. Pretty good projectile, but there are better (I would take lasers any day). Pretty good grab game, but there's better (Prolimar says hi). Decent combos, but there's definitely better (Fox, Sheik, Squirtle etc). Decent kill options, but there are better and more reliable out there (Wario and Fox really come to mind). Pretty good approach options, but there's better (projectile approaches, or characters who just have more range like Marth). Good survivability, factoring in weight, maneuverability, and recovery distance, but there is better (Wario is really the only one who pops into my head... he probably has the highest in the game).

Somebody who was in a similar situation to Yoshi was Link not too long ago. Decent in plenty of areas, but always outshined, coupled with a trash recovery. I think we all would agree that turning Link into an onstage monster (seriously... who would imagine Link being good?) was a much better move than if we fixed his recovery problems.
I think the same should apply to Yoshi. I have no idea what the WBR has in store for him, but I would much rather have a character who shines in certain aspects enough to cancel out a poor recovery (one that already serves its purpose just fine if the player isn't an idiot about it).

Spoiler

Though I will say its very cool that Shanus was able to create that. I love the kind of things that are actually possible to code in B+.

Good Post

I personally don't think it's particularly fair to give yoshi a buff that alleviates a character weakness in regards to a universal mechanic being altered... just for him. I could see implementing this rejump feature for everyone or no one at all, but giving just yoshi this footstool resistance (when he was previously the character hit hardest by footstools) is not a good idea imo. I'm actually pretty hesitant on implementing it to everyone, too. I mean, you may as well just remove footstools entirely if you're going to offer a way to make them essentially worthless. The teching code eliminated a lot of the footstool combos of vbrawl, making them most useful offstage now, in edgeguarding. But if you're going to implement a counter, then people will use them just as often as if you had just taken them out completely... never. Oh wait, they would still use it occasionally - on accident.

100% agree. Don't cop out Yoshi because of a universal mechanic.

Going back to Plum's post, If you all think Yoshi is lacking still, give him a small onstage buff.

I really don't think its right to get rid of a universal mechanic because ONE character has a major problem with it. It makes that character "unique" and accordingly, he should be helped out in another area IF HE NEEDS IT.

What's this word? "Impossible." I don't think our coders know the definition of that term, especially PW, who created the dynamic SD loader, capable of replacing any file on the disc now. Texture hacking the CSS would just be a matter of getting a texture hacker to actually... do it.

Sorry to steal this NBA fans.........


Brawl Plus, Where Amazing Happens

 

[Bladefist137]

I honestly don't see the problem with footstools and Yoshi.

Did Yoshi magically loose the ability to be smart about his double jump, and DJ + airdodge through any potential attack or footstool in the transition to B+?
Correct me if I'm wrong there.

There are characters who would kill for Yoshi's recovery. He has the fastest horizontal air movement in the game, which coupled with the little hop on his Up B is usually all he needs to get back on stage, unless sent below stage. And in that situation he has a MASSIVE double jump which has heavy armor, and the ability to use it's momentum as a fast airdodge getting him through any trouble. Now he even has the Side B refresh for those times where he is knocked back off stage after using his double jump already; while the Side B does cancel out a lot of the height of his DJ, it doesn't leave him helpless if he is knocked back out.

Is his recovery predictable? Yes, but not many characters are blessed with recovery mixups. Even among those who can mixup their recovery, it is still more often than not a bad recovery anyways. Characters like Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, Squirtle, and Link have more than one recovery option but are still left with very gimpable and generally bad recoveries. Point is, his recovery gets the job done.

There is a big difference between those characters and Yoshi though. They all excel at something onstage that makes them powerful characters despite recovery issues.
Fox is a combo machine with reliable kill options.
Squirtle has a powerful combo game, gimp game and kill options.
Falco is a wall of lasers, and combo options.
Wolf has a great juggle game along with one of the best (the best?) combo breakers in the game.
Ike has so much range and power, which coupled with the increased speed ALR gives his game makes a deadly character.
Link has a spectacular zoning game, which when you take into account his sword, Zair, and projectiles, you have a character who is deadly at close range, mid range, and long range.

What does Yoshi have? He seems to be Mr. Average in every category. Pretty good projectile, but there are better (I would take lasers any day). Pretty good grab game, but there's better (Prolimar says hi). Decent combos, but there's definitely better (Fox, Sheik, Squirtle etc). Decent kill options, but there are better and more reliable out there (Wario and Fox really come to mind). Pretty good approach options, but there's better (projectile approaches, or characters who just have more range like Marth). Good survivability, factoring in weight, maneuverability, and recovery distance, but there is better (Wario is really the only one who pops into my head... he probably has the highest in the game).

Somebody who was in a similar situation to Yoshi was Link not too long ago. Decent in plenty of areas, but always outshined, coupled with a trash recovery. I think we all would agree that turning Link into an onstage monster (seriously... who would imagine Link being good?) was a much better move than if we fixed his recovery problems.
I think the same should apply to Yoshi. I have no idea what the WBR has in store for him, but I would much rather have a character who shines in certain aspects enough to cancel out a poor recovery (one that already serves its purpose just fine if the player isn't an idiot about it).

Spoiler

Though I will say its very cool that Shanus was able to create that. I love the kind of things that are actually possible to code in B+.

Well spoken my friend, this is what I tried to tell to people when i talked about Yoshi >_>
Altho i really liked the idea of shanus that he proposed, I really rather have Yoshi to become a onstage beast like Link instead of Godly rocovery options. I know footstools are working retardedly well against Yoshi but he too must have a weakness right? Imagine if we did gave him the footstool 2nd jump refresh code plus the stuff that the WBR has prepared for him, he might become the new vBrawl Metaknight lol

Spoiler

But aside from that you still did an awesome job with that code you made Shanus : D

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm getting random freezes with the latest nightly (took off the sandbag and deadlands codes to be sure and it still happens). it either happens at when i select basic brawl (freezes before the CSS loads) or after a match when i press start to go back to the CSS. i'm not pressing any other buttons besides start so i don't think its the rage-quit bug.

 

[leafgreen386]

i'm getting random freezes with the latest nightly (took off the sandbag and deadlands codes to be sure and it still happens). it either happens at when i select basic brawl (freezes before the CSS loads) or after a match when i press start to go back to the CSS. i'm not pressing any other buttons besides start so i don't think its the rage-quit bug.

It is, actually. You're pressing the button too fast or too many times (or both). This bug has been happening for a while now, and can happen anytime you're too anxious trying to get to the CSS. Just take your time when going to the CSS and use slow, deliberate button presses. It's a pain, but it's better than having to restart the game because of a freeze.

 

[FrozenHobo]

but i just tried it again. i even waited for the screen to settle first. it still froze on me.

 

[leafgreen386]

but i just tried it again. i even waited for the screen to settle first. it still froze on me.

Weird. I haven't had that problem before. It's always been a result of being too wild when entering the CSS, where clean button inputs work fine...

Could it be a result of the new file replacement code?