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[zxeon]

Zelda needs all the help she can get and I don't think Nayru's love should be one of those useless moves.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Zelda need all the help she can get.

I disagree, I think she is already a good character.

Actually after thinking for a bit, I think that no character should have a useless special move (SPECIAL move as in B moves, I'm not talking about regular moves). Since specials are so unique I don't think any of them should be completely useless. I do think that Zelda should get a separate nerf (Maybe take away the jab buff? I don't see why she deserved that). That way jab is bad again but Nayru's isn't. BTW I think I recall getting hit by zelda's jab when I was behind her, which shouldn't happen.

Even sing should have a bigger range and put on a flower effect in my opinion.

 

[zxeon]

Show me evidence.

 

[iLink]

Just a question:

Are we planning on leaving Lucario's downb the way it is? It currently is very inconsistent at actually hitting them as they are able to shield after their attack and leads to him being punished as opposed to what it's supposed to do. (Punish them)

I think this could be easily resolved by speeding up the animation.

 

[Mattnumbers]

High priority smashes, a spammable projectile, killer aerials, a fairly good recovery, the possiblity to turn into sheik if they counterpick a character zelda is bad against, A fast dsmash, dtilt combo's into itself multiple times (I think its a combo maybe you can escape), a reflector, good anti-air moves, good edgeguarding.

EDIT: to the post above mine, speeding up the animation didn't work, we've tried it before.

 

[Sails]

Show me evidence.

Play against RyokoYaksa, he'll show you evidence. Sheik/Zelda is quite powerful right now.

 

[iLink]

to the post above mine, speeding up the animation didn't work, we've tried it before.

If I recall, they speed up the end lag when he ISN'T hit. Is there a way they could speed up the actual attack?

 

[zxeon]

Make the reappearance on the Down-B IASA (ala Ness PSI-Magnet). That should be possible right? That way you can go through with the slide or pick something else to do.

If possible I hope it's not completely broken.

 

[GHNeko]

Zelda needs all the help she can get and I don't think Nayru's love should be one of those useless moves.

Show me evidence.

:V

10colon-vee

 

[zxeon]

What? I just want to see some sweet Zelda vids.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If I recall, they speed up the end lag when he ISN'T hit. Is there a way they could speed up the actual attack?

No, I'm pretty sure they sped up the attack, itself. But that change still didn't make that move above par, so they just took it out since it was taking up frame speed mod lines. But thinking about it, maybe they should speed both the attack AND the winddown lag, if they wanted to make it better.

 

[iLink]

No, I'm pretty sure the speed up the attack itself. But that change still didn't make that move above par, so they just took it out since it was taking up frame speed mod lines. But thinking about it, maybe they should speed both the attack AND the winddown lag, if they wanted to make it better.

iirc, it said they changed the winddown lag, although I could be wrong. When I used it, there wasn't a noticeable difference in the speed in which the slide was activated but it did seem like there was less winddown.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

iirc, it said they changed the winddown lag, although I could be wrong. When I used it, there wasn't a noticeable difference in the speed in which the slide was activated but it did seem like there was less winddown.

Winddown lag could be used to describe the non-hit winddown or the attack's winddown (but most of the time, the term is used for the attacking purposed...but that's because most moves don't have secondary winddown properties...). I remember people complaining about how people can shield his Double Team prior to the change. And I also recall trying to use it more due to the speed up to test it out.

 

[leafgreen386]

We tried editing lucario's downB a very long time ago, and indeed only sped up the winddown lag on the attack. I don't remember exactly what the problem was, but for some reason we weren't able to edit the actually important part. It's a good thing to bring this up again, as now we may be able to edit it to work properly... we'll have to see. In related news, the recent raising of hitlag should at least partially fix this problem, since it was lowering hitlag before that caused it. I'm not sure how much hitlag you'll need, though, in order to make it work correctly.

 

[shanus]

Zelda needs all the help she can get and I don't think Nayru's love should be one of those useless moves.

Have you played a good zelda?

First, she now has virtually inescapable upsmashes, fsmashes, etc. If she connects with an upsmash at low percent, she has multiple follow ups all leading to a build up of between 30-50% depending on your weight. Then, she needs to build up a bit more percent, and then she has a pretty much guaranteed uthrow uair kill on 95% of the cast around 60-80%.

Edit: Regarding Lucario, the disappearance time we could not edit with frame speed. We took every ID, sped it up llike 292398238923x and the disappearing time still was unchanged.

 

[zxeon]

Have you played a good zelda?.

No I have not.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's Usmash in this build won't lead to that much damage anymore unless you're playing a character's who asking to get chained twice.

Uthrow-uair is *not* 95% of cast viable. More like 40% tops. Shanus knows I'm trying to fix that percentage to be less.

Din's Fire spam was made obsolete a month after vBrawl came out. A projectile that perhaps reduces your options by 30% and Zelda's options by 100% is not "spammable." Din's Fire as it is right now isn't worth mentioning on the receiving end, especially when you consider it's clash cancelable and only has 2 hit frames.

-Don't get me started on the multi-hit smashes being inescapable. For whatever advantage there might be to an inescapable multi-hit move which must hit to the end to do anything significant or even be safe to use, there are many disadvantages and flukes that make them highly unfavorable in comparison to moves that just hit once for their full effect.

When you play at really high levels offline, which haven't been the people I've been testing against including shanus, Zelda gets a lot worse. Despite what I've been doing to make Zelda feel more complete without really giving her any straight changes to gameplay, I feel Sheik is much more reliable/viable.

 

[Eight 52]

Who is in charge of doing the Yoshi changes? All of these changes do little to help the poor guy and are avoiding his main problems.

Recent Changes:
Yoshi
-Dair has 40% ALR
-SideB now refreshes Yoshi's double jump (credit goes to BB)
-Uthrow now deals 12 dmg from 5, BKB to 70 from 65, KBG 20 from 43

Dair Reduction:
While this is a nice tiny buff, it doesn't help his main problems. What this does is make less punishable for using Dair wrong. Dair is supposed to used through the person, not right in front of them. Though, it does allow an easier use of a ftilt or utilt after.

SideB Nonsense:
It seems like this would be a great recovery move. However, if one were to be footstooled, which is the situation this buff should be used in, it wouldn't matter. The lag from being footstooled to egg roll to getting out of it would be well pass the barrier or too low to recover. And while this does help his horizontal recovery, it does little to alleviate his recovery issues.

Uthrow...Buff?:
Damage increase. Still useless. It either leads into a airdodge predicted upsmash/uptilt, or a free uair. This seems great in theory, but when you take into account you generally get a free uair until the 100s or even a sexy dair combo string from a dthrow, depending on the SDI, there's little to no point in even using uthrow.

Now Yoshi's 3 problems:
1. Footstools
2. Kill Moves
3. Shield

The first problem is simple, take out the footstools. It's obvious why footstools affect Yoshi, but many agree that airdodging through them is a safe recovery. If you know how to play against a Yoshi, you could easily fake going for a footstool and punish the airdodge that you know is coming, otherwise Yoshi will get footstooled. Without the footstool, Yoshi pretty much has control of how he recovers and can throw in attacks or just go through edgeguard attempts and only take damage, like how super armor should function.

Second problem, KOs. While playing Dark Sonic, I could generally not get a kill till about 140-170ish against Sonic. His fsmash, his "main" kill move kills till about 120-130 and is extremely risky. Usmash doesn't kill till about 180s-200s because of how much you can SDI the move and while the Dsmash buff is amazing, it only sets up an edge guard, which against characters with lol recoverys well sucks. Uair is the only reliable killer, which is easily linked from a dthrow, kills at around 150-160 on Sonic, a lightweight. There is also the problem of none of Yoshi's "kill" moves are at all combo'd into. The closest one is dthrow to uair, which could barely be called a link, and can even be SDI'd out of at late pecentages. It's rather pathetic. I would expect a psuedo combo character to kill at like 110-130, not vBrawl percentages.

Third problem, the shield. Yes, the shield doesn't get penetrated, but is very limited to punishing after. Dsmash or jab are the only punishments to pressing r, and can be easily predicted and laughed at. Since Yoshi no longer has djc, I don't see the problem in making him able to jump out of shield, since the dj would move him far away from the scene and would at the worst, form a reset of position. Simple way to balance the djc would be to cause the shield to break slightly faster, to make up for the lack of penetration.

Some thoughts, care to criticize or not.

 

[Plum]

I feel Sheik is always going to be the better half just through character design.
She has an actual reliable projectile, such a lovely combo game, fast movement all around the board and crawldashing to add on to that, and a very powerful edgeguard game.

Zelda has her advantages depending on where you are looking at, but let's be honest, Sheik's character design itself is just better suited for the gameplay B+ promotes. Fast combos that can reliably end offstage where she can land easy, low % gimps on pretty large portion of the cast.

SideB Nonsense:
It seems like this would be a great recovery move. However, if one were to be footstooled, which is the situation this buff should be used in, it wouldn't matter. The lag from being footstooled to egg roll to getting out of it would be well pass the barrier or too low to recover. And while this does help his horizontal recovery, it does little to alleviate his recovery issues.

The whole point of the Side B refresh isn't to fix his recovery issues, rather just make it less stupidly easy to gimp. Yeah you can still footstool him, but why wouldn't you be doing a DJ+airdodge to avoid any possibility of footstools? The Side B just makes it so he isn't completely hopeless if he is knocked back off stage after using his DJ, similar to Ganondorf's Down B refresh.

It's like what they did for Ike's recovery; no free fall on Side B if he hit's an opponent. It still leaves his recovery bad, but prevents the stupid meatshielding (or better yet just airdodging through the move to not even be hit) that made a potential recovery option so bad.

The point isn't to fix his recovery issues, rather make it a little better on the player's side without truly changing a character weakness.

As for any other problem Yoshi has, I expect one problem to be the pure lack of top level Yoshi players. I can think of somebody who plays "X" character at a high level in B+ for literally every character except Yoshi. It would be hard to really judge where Yoshi stands when there simply isn't any Yoshi being played (as far as I see).

 

[Mattnumbers]

Since Dins Fire doesn't have much lag I still would call it spammable, I didn't mean that it was a great move I just meant that you can spam it and be relatively safe from retaliation.

 

[Yingyay]

Zelda is good against the puffballs since her attacks cover a wider and larger area at times. She's basically an anti-air character. I almost never switch to Zelda when I use sheik unless

A) im bored
B) I need to kill Metaknight quickly
c) I wanna lightning kick someone.
D) Counter Ice Climbers.

Sheik is definitely the best to start with espcially since decaying smashs are gone.

@Matt: Din's Fire isnt spammable. Believe me. You can reflect it before it explodes if you have a reflector. you can clash with it (ryoko said this already). Unless Zelda predicts what your gonna do, you can even run past it and smack da **** outta her.

 

[The Cape]

For Yoshi:

U throw is meant for damage only, nothing else. I have a slight rework on the B and F throws that may show some use. D throw will remain untouched.

Footstools will not be removed, its a character weakness, and you can always throw eggs or do a uair to help protect yourself. Just be ceative. We wont remove footstools just due to one character.

For U smash I buffed the knockback growth on it so that it should kill sooner and this should be in soon enough.

His sheild was sped up to a 2x release and is now not the issue, the issue is in fact that he has no good out of sheild options not in fact his sheild itself.


Personally I find Yoshi to be an excellent chracter when played correctly (I played Lord Karn and he showed me the way).

Look on youtube for Lord Karn vids.

 

[Eight 52]

U throw is meant for damage only, nothing else. I have a slight rework on the B and F throws that may show some use. D throw will remain untouched.

Well that's good. Uthrow is still worthless though lol.

Footstools will not be removed, its a character weakness, and you can always throw eggs or do a uair to help protect yourself. Just be ceative. We wont remove footstools just due to one character.

I'm not asking to get rid of all footstools, just asking to get rid of footstools during super armor frames.

For U smash I buffed the knockback growth on it so that it should kill sooner and this should be in soon enough.

When did this happen? USmash is still a terrible kill move.

His sheild was sped up to a 2x release and is now not the issue, the issue is in fact that he has no good out of sheild options not in fact his sheild itself.

Nair out of shield isn't a good OoS option? :3

I know Yoshi is pretty decent, but to me he still seems just eh. He's below average as compared to everyone else.

 

[leafgreen386]

Now Yoshi's 3 problems:
1. Footstools
2. Kill Moves
3. Shield

The first problem is simple, take out the footstools. It's obvious why footstools affect Yoshi, but many agree that airdodging through them is a safe recovery. If you know how to play against a Yoshi, you could easily fake going for a footstool and punish the airdodge that you know is coming, otherwise Yoshi will get footstooled. Without the footstool, Yoshi pretty much has control of how he recovers and can throw in attacks or just go through edgeguard attempts and only take damage, like how super armor should function.

Taking out footstools for one character is kinda selfish, don't ya think? I don't particularly appreciate the footstooling mechanic currently in place, but there was certainly plenty of opposition to changing it when it was brought up not too long ago.

edit: Ignore this part. I thought you meant footstools as a whole.

Second problem, KOs. While playing Dark Sonic, I could generally not get a kill till about 140-170ish against Sonic. His fsmash, his "main" kill move kills till about 120-130 and is extremely risky. Usmash doesn't kill till about 180s-200s because of how much you can SDI the move and while the Dsmash buff is amazing, it only sets up an edge guard, which against characters with lol recoverys well sucks. Uair is the only reliable killer, which is easily linked from a dthrow, kills at around 150-160 on Sonic, a lightweight. There is also the problem of none of Yoshi's "kill" moves are at all combo'd into. The closest one is dthrow to uair, which could barely be called a link, and can even be SDI'd out of at late pecentages. It's rather pathetic. I would expect a psuedo combo character to kill at like 110-130, not vBrawl percentages.

Uair really kills at 150-160%? I thought it killed earlier than that... I know I've died from it in vbrawl before at 100%, and the gravity changes shouldn't cause it to kill that much later. Are you sure 150-160% wasn't just when you were actually landing it? Because sonic only has a medium amount of grav added to him, and there is no way that uair should be killing that late.

Also, I'm not really sure why you're complaining about SDI on his usmash. Even if the foe does SDI it, it shouldn't cause them to die any later by more than a couple percent. It's not like it's a multi-hit move that gets stopped in its tracks by SDI...

Third problem, the shield. Yes, the shield doesn't get penetrated, but is very limited to punishing after. Dsmash or jab are the only punishments to pressing r, and can be easily predicted and laughed at. Since Yoshi no longer has djc, I don't see the problem in making him able to jump out of shield, since the dj would move him far away from the scene and would at the worst, form a reset of position. Simple way to balance the djc would be to cause the shield to break slightly faster, to make up for the lack of penetration.

Uh... yoshi's shield exit lag has been sped up 2x for a very long time now. It should allow almost instant counterattacks from dropping your shield...

 

[Eight 52]

Uair really kills at 150-160%? I thought it killed earlier than that... I know I've died from it in vbrawl before at 100%, and the gravity changes shouldn't cause it to kill that much later. Are you sure 150-160% wasn't just when you were actually landing it? Because sonic only has a medium amount of grav added to him, and there is no way that uair should be killing that late.

Also, I'm not really sure why you're complaining about SDI on his usmash. Even if the foe does SDI it, it shouldn't cause them to die any later by more than a couple percent. It's not like it's a multi-hit move that gets stopped in its tracks by SDI...

I don't know if you have ever SDI'd the move, but for some reason the SDI is ridiculous on it. Do it well enough, and you can pretty much go horizontal.

Uh... yoshi's shield exit lag has been sped up 2x for a very long time now. It should allow almost instant counterattacks from dropping your shield...

Like I said, Dsmash isn't that great of a punisher, nor is jab.

 

[GHNeko]

Give egg roll 2 frame start up so Yoshi can egg roll OOS and double the wind down of the move. :V

 

[Eight 52]

Give egg roll 2 frame start up so Yoshi can egg roll OOS and double the wind down of the move. :V

I see what you did there >_>

 

[GHNeko]

What? I'm being serious.

Let Yoshi egg roll out of shield, give it enough BKB to classify as a GTFO move and increase the wind down because you're not only creating vertical distance like most UP B GTFO OOS, but your creating plenty of horizontal distance.

What other use does a grounded Egg roll have but to maybe catch your opponent off guard who doesnt know what move can outprioritze egg roll if they happen to not have disjointed moves. :V

 

[Eight 52]

Only problem with that is the Egg roll doesn't actually do anything till it starts moving. It's have to be pretty much an instant start up for it to do anything.

 

[cobaltblue]

Don't know if this known, but currently picking 75m alternates between 75m, Test Room, and Wifi room when it comes up.

 

[MK26]

Don't know if this known, but currently picking 75m alternates between 75m, Test Room, and Wifi room when it comes up.

1) Side-effect of the SSS code? (Which I will be releasing a guide for, thanks to Yeroc)

2) Why are you picking 75m in the first place?

 

[shanus]

Only problem with that is the Egg roll doesn't actually do anything till it starts moving. It's have to be pretty much an instant start up for it to do anything.

I have a concept idea which I'm not sure if people will like or dislike.

Imagine this:

Yoshi requires an input *immediately* after being footstooled which will give back his ability to double jump.

It would work as follows:

Previous ID is footstooled, current ID is (for example example, air dodge), replace with actionID secondjumprefresh.

What this would mean would be that yoshi mains would have to buffer an air dodge from the footstool so that they enter air dodge immediately after the animation (that is, so they don't enter Fall1 state). As such, for this successful timing window, they will be able to refresh their double jump.

Of course, we could make it require no button input to give back the double jump, but that seems a bit too cheating and easy. After all, it is a character weakness we are fixing here, and I don't want to give a get out of jail free card.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

or we can remove footstooling.

edit: or remove yoshi.

being 100% serious here

 

[Bladefist137]

I have a concept idea which I'm not sure if people will like or dislike.

Imagine this:

Yoshi requires an input *immediately* after being footstooled which will give back his ability to double jump.

It would work as follows:

Previous ID is footstooled, current ID is (for example example, air dodge), replace with actionID secondjumprefresh.

What this would mean would be that yoshi mains would have to buffer an air dodge from the footstool so that they enter air dodge immediately after the animation (that is, so they don't enter Fall1 state). As such, for this successful timing window, they will be able to refresh their double jump.

Of course, we could make it require no button input to give back the double jump, but that seems a bit too cheating and easy. After all, it is a character weakness we are fixing here, and I don't want to give a get out of jail free card.

I would definitely support this idea your proposing for Yoshi Shanus :D

 

[Eight 52]

As soon as the animation happens, hit air dodge?

 

[shanus]

As soon as the animation happens, hit air dodge?

You would fall the footstool tumble length, but as you are about to exit the footstool tumble, you hit air dodge. Basically, if you go into the fall state, you miss your chance to get your jump back.

We are also talking about speeding up the footstool tumble animation so it doesnt last as long.

 

[Eight 52]

You would fall the footstool tumble length, but as you are about to exit the footstool tumble, you hit air dodge. Basically, if you go into the fall state, you miss your chance to get your jump back.

We are also talking about speeding up the footstool tumble animation so it doesnt last as long.

I still think it's stupid that Yoshi's super armor can withstand Crazy punishment, but if you tap his nose, he dies.

Would it be possible to make someone super jump when they try to footstool Yoshi during the super armor frames, kinda like when you jump off of someone attacking in mid air. The technicality is nice of the foot stool recovery, but like I said, footstooling super armor seems silly.

 

[shanus]

I still think it's stupid that Yoshi's super armor can withstand Crazy punishment, but if you tap his nose, he dies.

Would it be possible to make someone super jump when they try to footstool Yoshi during the super armor frames, kinda like when you jump off of someone attacking in mid air. The technicality is nice of the foot stool recovery, but like I said, footstooling super armor seems silly.

Its solely dependent on actionIDs right now, and I would have to do a pretty ghetto fix for that to maybe work (99% odds it will fail though). Do you know how many frames from the start of his doublejump that he has his super armor?

 

[FrozenHobo]

1) Side-effect of the SSS code? (Which I will be releasing a guide for, thanks to Yeroc)

2) Why are you picking 75m in the first place?

and when will this guide be available?

 

[Eight 52]

Honestly, I can't find the frame data for the super armor. I dunno why no one has recorded it before, everyone has just done the hitboxes. ._.;