Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Skip2MaLoo]

you guys should add input lag to the wifi room

 

[GHNeko]

oh, so its a tourney set now? because last i checked this was a nightly build, and nightly builds aren't recommended for competitive play. or are you editing that rule too?

No. It's just that the Sandbag has recieved little negative feedback, and that was only initial feedback, so now the negative feedback is started to die down and/or covert to neutral/positive feed back, making it more likely that the stage change will indeed stage rather than get taken out.

Cuz you know, when people like a change, it wont leave any time soon, that and no one in WBR to my knowledge really doesn't like the sandbag (except maybe Chibo, but he's a tightwad about stages anyways. <3)

So following that logic, and assuming the reception of sandbag stays as is or gets better, there is a nice change that it's going to make itself into an official build meaning that yea. Sandbag might become a tourney set. V:

So lol @ u :V

 

[Glick]

The music hack is WAY too complicated for me.

 

[XSilvenX]

Even still, it's solely up to the TO whether or not they want to even include the stage or not. Just because you guys recommend it doesn't make it standard.

And you can consider this negative feedback. I can take foreign items like apples, shy guys and stupid crap like that but a sandbag...? Just seems like a desperate attempt to differentiate the stage from FD, as bad as it is...

 

[FrozenHobo]

No. It's just that the Sandbag has recieved little negative feedback, and that was only initial feedback, so now the negative feedback is started to die down and/or covert to neutral/positive feed back, making it more likely that the stage change will indeed stage rather than get taken out.

Cuz you know, when people like a change, it wont leave any time soon, that and no one in WBR to my knowledge really doesn't like the sandbag (except maybe Chibo, but he's a tightwad about stages anyways. <3)

So following that logic, and assuming the reception of sandbag stays as is or gets better, there is a nice change that it's going to make itself into an official build meaning that yea. Sandbag might become a tourney set. V:

So lol @ u :V

the stage as of now is a CP at best and a ban at worst. the only way the stage could be seen as viable would be a doubles match (much in the same way that hanenbow is only legal for doubles in some tourneys).

and as far as the possibility of future tourneys go, if its not already banned then i'm complaining to the TO. i'm not dealing with that ****ty bag and his walling tactics. i will argue and make them change it if i have to (see: IC infinites in texas, etc.). you want to make a stage to counter falco then you do it in the stage select, don't ruin a perfectly good neutral by adding an silly item that never goes away.

 

[XSilvenX]

you guys should add input lag to the wifi room

Pretty much, that way there's a more practical reason to pick the stage if you're good on Wifi and your opponent is not. You have an advantage. PLUS it differentiates the stage from FD even more

 

[GHNeko]

the stage as of now is a CP at best and a ban at worst. the only way the stage could be seen as viable would be a doubles match (much in the same way that hanenbow is only legal for doubles in some tourneys).

and as far as the possibility of future tourneys go, if its not already banned then i'm complaining to the TO. i'm not dealing with that ****ty bag and his walling tactics. i will argue and make them change it if i have to (see: IC infinites in texas, etc.). you want to make a stage to counter falco then you do it in the stage select, don't ruin a perfectly good neutral by adding an silly item that never goes away.

Pfft. The only thing that makes it ban worthy in singles and CP worthy in doubles are the blast zones. Adjust those and what it could be legal for changes completely.

And aruging with a TO will get you banned. Now if you debate with one and bring up valid reasons that can be backed with data and facts, then you might have someway to warrent to ban it, and even then, the TO can go "no u" and ignore you, especially if there isnt even near half of the tourney goers wanting to remove the stage, cuz even if you do bring up data and facts to back your **** up, if half of the tourney people doesnt want to remove the stage, your efforts have a large chance of falling on deaf ears because alot of the time, TOs do side with majority. :V

 

[FSLink]

TL;DR
Bring back Deadlands. And keep the sandbag in the waiting room. It adds such a unique flavor to a boring room. It protects you from projectiles, in an otherwise "campy" stage. It will be a unique and important counter pick especially against Falcos.

Personally, I'd want to have Deadlands as the default, and hold a button or add an additional icon for a Luigi's Mansion that's slower.

Also think that Spear Pillar and such should take a page from BBrawl and allow you to choose if you want Legendary Pokemon/Metal Gear and such by holding a button. I think Brawl+ should add more options, and make tourney-viable stages default, but still have the hazardous gimmicky stages playable for those who want to play them. Same thing with the Sandbag/Sandbag-less WiFi room (keep one of them default, have the other version for Counterpicks)

 

[Wavedash Master]

the stage as of now is a CP at best and a ban at worst. the only way the stage could be seen as viable would be a doubles match (much in the same way that hanenbow is only legal for doubles in some tourneys).

and as far as the possibility of future tourneys go, if its not already banned then i'm complaining to the TO. i'm not dealing with that ****ty bag and his walling tactics. i will argue and make them change it if i have to (see: IC infinites in texas, etc.). you want to make a stage to counter falco then you do it in the stage select, don't ruin a perfectly good neutral by adding an silly item that never goes away.

Personally, I think that this new Wifi room needs more testing. It seems all these protests about how the stage is more like a counterpick/ban viable are just assumptions based on how this could potentially ruin characters with projectiles and promote camping. I feel we need more tournament viable stages that give the game that interesting factor. The stage shouldn't be ban worthy like 75m or something but be more of a neutral/counterpick and not as dull as Final Destination (think Yoshi's Island).

 

[timothyung]

Just make a wide flat custom stage to replace the WiFi Room without the sandbag

 

[smashbro29]

I've wanted to say this since I jumped on the B+ bandwagon: great work!!

Now, with that out of the way, you may have noticed squirtle's D-grab and Ivy's dash attack send opponents quite farther then most others regardless of damage, I have always theorized that was put in as an emergency manuever for when they were low on stamina and needed time to switch, in B+ not only is there infinite stamina you can choose them individually! so I was thinkin'.... tone down the knock back a wee bit.or at least tell me why it was kept in.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Iyvsaur really doesn't have many reliable kill moves, which is why they kept in his dash attack power. I think.

Ivysaur has, what: ForwardSmash, fair, and dash attack as RELIABLE kill moves. :|

 

[SSBFalco]

I'm going to go ahead and add some more negative feedback to the Wifi Waiting Room with the Sandbag. I don't like the sandbag there. It annoys me to no end, and I see no reason why it was added when it is a perfectly viable stage without it. To me it seems it was added as a gimick to hopefully stop projectile spamming.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Just make a wide flat custom stage to replace the WiFi Room without the sandbag

for the love of god, shut up about custom stages. we heard you the first five times! most tourneys don't allow custom stages anyway.

@neko: AIM'd the local TO last night and he agreed with me that it should be banned in singles and CP in doubles.

 

[cobaltblue]

I like the bag personally. Gives a stage for where non projectile chars can do a little camping of their own compared to the others of stage that are projectile camper friendly. The bag also doesn't interfere near as much as other stages. The only complaint I have about it is that the camera focus too much on it.

I just don't see how this stage can draw complaints yet crap like brinstar, nofair, and frigate orphan don't.

 

[leafbarrett]

I'll say it again. If you really hate the sandbag THAT much, then play on FD instead. -_-

 

[GHNeko]

for the love of god, shut up about custom stages. we heard you the first five times! most tourneys don't allow custom stages anyway.

@neko: AIM'd the local TO last night and he agreed with me that it should be banned in singles and CP in doubles.

Well than that's good for you. <3

 

[proteininja]

I for one LOVE the sandbag. It adds an interesting and balanced mechanic to an otherwise boring vanilla stage. Without it you might as well be playing final d

 

[shanus]

Wow all this hissy fit over Wifi Waiting Room and Deadlands lmao

You people need to chill out when providing feedback.

People also wonder why we try and modify perfectly good flat stages with nothing to them besides alternate music? We have plenty, and were trying to differentiate stages into still playable but different than FD syndrome.

I.e. if Luigis mansion respawned every 1.5 to 2 minutes you might see the mansion twice in 1 match. This would prevent stalling tactics and add some nice spice to the level to bring it to a legal CP and also fix the spawn bugs that we cant address in doubles.

Wifi waiting room, samndbag does nothig expect act as a tactical item for projectile camping as well as abusing for extended hitlag on multihit moves to punish spotdodges. We read these posts, but less whine, more constructive feedback.

 

[timothyung]

for the love of god, shut up about custom stages. we heard you the first five times! most tourneys don't allow custom stages anyway.

And it's being ignored 4 times.

The Wifi stage with the sandbag is perfectly fine. Before it was too big for singles, but now with the sandbag it can easily be a CP, as it stops projectile camping. And the sandbag just add a few frames of lag to attacks, which isn't a problem at all, and for multi-hit and longer hitlag attacks, it can even be used as a tactic to extend the hitbox duration. The sandbag is not random at all so it's perfectly fine. We already have FD as a flat stage.

And is the WBR considering to make custom stages legal in tournaments?

 

[GHNeko]

And is the WBR considering to make custom stages legal in tournaments?

Working on it. I just need to make CSP glitch free. .__.

 

[smashbro29]

Iyvsaur really doesn't have many reliable kill moves, which is why they kept in his dash attack power. I think.

Ivysaur has, what: ForwardSmash, fair, and dash attack as RELIABLE kill moves. :|

This still doesn't explain Squirtle's D-Grab.

Also, just how many kill moves does he need? He's already got somewhat reliable smashes I'm seeing the dash as a going a little overboard.

 

[JCaesar]

OMG the sandbag is sooo awesome, it really adds a lot to that stage by MAKING CAMPING LESS EFFECTIVE on a bigass stage, because that's really all it does. If any part of WWR warrants complaint, it's the sheer size of the stage, not the sandbag. Tourney vids of it in action coming soon.

As for Luigi's mansion, I personally think the mansion should have more HP but never respawn.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

samus' down b tricks in melee, attacking out of morph ball and stuff. is it possible to bring that back? it'll give her more depth than the ocean

 

[WheelOfFish]

I miss Deadlands, but that's just me. Would it be possible to freeze Norfair? Brinstar is probably fine the way it is, but Norfair would make a decent stage if it was frozen.

And let's make Mario's d-tilt NOT the worst move in the game. How about it starts KOing at twenty percent and makes the baseball bat noise? That, or faster cool-down, a little more damage, and a little hitstun.

 

[timothyung]

I miss Deadlands, but that's just me. Would it be possible to freeze Norfair? Brinstar is probably fine the way it is, but Norfair would make a decent stage if it was frozen.

And let's make Mario's d-tilt NOT the worst move in the game. How about it starts KOing at twenty percent and makes the baseball bat noise? That, or faster cool-down, a little more damage, and a little hitstun.

Norfair's lava are unique and not that broken, it's a good CP already now. Though IIRC there is a code that allows freezing of a stage by holding down a button. Maybe we can make use of this.

Mario's dtilt has its uses. It can combo into a fsmash at around 100%.

 

[Bandit]

A Letter of Concern

Dear B+ Backroom and Enthusiasts,

As a valued consumer, I have played your game relentlessly and found that you like to hear feedback on how you are doing. After careful consideration, I have come up with a list of things that I feel should be addressed.

1) I would like to ask what is the goal of Brawl+? I assumed that it was a game that was attempting to narrow the gap between characters to make the entire cast viable in a tournament. In doing this, I also assumed that characters would stay in relatively the same tiers and characters as they were in vBrawl except able to produce combos. This is where my concern comes in. It seems as if this is not being adhered to and characters are being buffed or nerfed without consideration to the rest of the cast or how the character was played before. Characters are receiving enhancements based on how much people like the characters.

I will use Wolf as my example. He used to be a mid-tier character with speed and power that made him a difficult matchup but had recovery problems and a laser that is not spammable (see Fox or Falco) to balance him out. In B+, he is now a combo machine that is able to string together powerful combos to rack damage with an array of kill moves to finish off his opponents. This was before the enhancements.

He now has faster aerials, a buffed fair to help kill better, a buff to nair, captain falcon’s knee on a recovery move, and an enhancement to have his upB kill more. Why? I don’t know considering he was a tank who did not have problems killing. Why was he given falcon’s knee? Now, his recovery moves will kill you if you screw up trying to defend him. Before, his recovery moves would simply bat you away. For a tank who had no problems killing, he is receiving an awful lot of buffs for someone who already was a solid character. After talking with other B+ smashers, he has become extremely unbalanced and may only be opposed by Metaknight in the game.

A mid-tier character has been buffed to the point where he is now a top 5 character. I know this can be fixed, but this should never have happened in the first place. This point brings me to my second point.

2) A checks and balance system should be created to avoid characters receiving too much attention, buffs, nerfs, etc and causing negative competition within the game. From a person outside the backroom, certain characters receive a lot more attention than others as it appears there is someone driving to make the character one of the top in the game. It seems to make sense that a small committee (which would appear to be what the backroom is for) could thoroughly review changes that are submitted for the character and what it will do to not only the character but the rest of the game as well. Just because I want Yoshi to have a 50% damaging forward smash (I don’t actually) doesn’t mean it should be put in because I might be a pro Yoshi player.

People get elected to the United States Senate. While there, they try to represent their state and propose things that would help their state along with trying to improve the nation as a whole. If I am elected to Maryland Senate, I don’t feel they will simply approve my suggestion that the national emblem be a crab. It goes before the group and they approve or repeal the suggestion. Experimentation is great, but game releases should have more than just straight experimentation. I realize this thread that I am posting in is where people give feedback, but it is ultimately up to the backroom to decide what goes on and what goes out.

3) This will be my last point of concern before I will allow you to ponder and respond as you may like. I am a Zelda main and currently run a very much dead B+ thread for her. I have been the only Zelda in MD/VA and one of only a handful on the east coast. I was active in the vBrawl Zelda community and felt I could do the same here in B+. Unfortunately, I have run into a brick wall.

Ryoko has hijacked Zelda and her development. He routinely makes changes to the character without discussion or notice with any of the other Zelda players. If there are any complaints, he simply talks down to you because you disagree with him.

Ryoko is a high quality player who is able to play Zelda on some of her highest levels. While I respect his opinions, he does not respect the opinions of others. All I would like is a voice in the character coming from the Zelda community aside from our representative. The reason I said the Zelda+ thread is dead is because Ryoko does not post ideas for the character or changes that he makes, so the players really have nothing to discuss because he will simply change the character how he feels it should be changed. Others, besides myself, have suggested things and he simply shrugs them off and says that the character is fine how she is, and that he has no problems winning with her.

I hope you find these points worthy of discussion and consideration. I will continue to follow the thread to answer any direct questions and await an eager response. You can PM me as well if you have a personal question that you do not want to ask publically.

Thanks again for your time,

Bandit

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

good post about zelda stuff and checks and balances and buffs and people being ignored that was indeed a good read

just saying i agree. zeldaaa
edit: so im not spamming, falco forgot about: zeldaaa

 

[Revven]

Wolf isn't top 5 even with the buffs, that's a huge exaggeration, he gets owned by the people in top 10 easily (Fox, MK, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, and so forth all are way better than Wolf is and Wolf can barely still handle some characters anyhow. He is NO WAY top 5). And a checks and balance system? Really? Do you realize how much longer that would take while we feel we already pretty **** close to being done with characters?

 

[WheelOfFish]

Yeah, as much as I like playing Wolf, he still needs some work.

@Timothy, I'll have to try Mario's d-tilt at 100% -> f-smash, but even then, it's a pathetic excuse for a move.

We could also give it a huge wind-up time and make it spike, a la Weegee kick.

... actually, no, let's not do that XD It would make be Ganon's-utilt-esque; annoying if you accidentally do it and even more punishable.

Falco, let's not forget the beast Brawl+ has turned Luigi into. He still feels the best to me.

 

[exfatal]

i agree with red bandit 100%, and he put it in such a pleasant way also

 

[zxeon]

I hope the Ness Fair horizontal zap jump was intentional and even if it wasn't I'd like to see it stay in. It's pretty cool.

 

[timothyung]

Bandit, the killing Wolf's UpB isn't buffed. The change is just to make the hits connect better. Also his aerials didn't get faster, it's just the landing lag.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Another thing you should note when you speak about Wolf is his weight, allowing him to be combo'd more then the usual char, and also that his recovery is hardly much better even with the buffs. He is not comparable to Metaknight in the least.

Also, you simply can't focus too much on original tier lists and playstyles when changing Brawl+. Brawl+ was founded off universal changes, and that itself changed the playstyles and tier lists. Everyone practically became new characters, and the buffs/nerfs should focus on them rather then past incarnations from an overall slower and less offensive-based game.

Systematic checks and balances are over-excessive for a project like this. We simply don't need to hinder development in such a way when people are anxious for a gold release.

As for Zelda, you'll have to speak to Ryoko either through IRC or the Zelda thread. I'm sure if theres something that concerns you with Zelda and you have worthwhile points then they will be listened to.

 

[skstylez]

Another thing you should note when you speak about Wolf is his weight, allowing him to be combo'd more then the usual char, and also that his recovery is hardly much better even with the buffs. He is not comparable to Metaknight in the least.

actually, wolf seems very light. Fox/falco are much heavier than him

 

[Bandit]

Wolf isn't top 5 even with the buffs, that's a huge exaggeration, he gets owned by the people in top 10 easily (Fox, MK, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, and so forth all are way better than Wolf is and Wolf can barely still handle some characters anyhow. He is NO WAY top 5). And a checks and balance system? Really? Do you realize how much longer that would take while we feel we already pretty **** close to being done with characters?

JCaesar at yesterday's tournament was in the finals against a Diddy. The Diddy had already beaten his ROB and Squirtle (an accepted top 3 character), so JC switched to Wolf and did remarkably better winning 2 games in the finals. Both games were played on neutrals while the only games he won with his mains, including Squirtle, were on his counterpicks.

By the way, JCaesar not only doesn't play Wolf but rarely jokingly uses him. He will be posting vidz soon, and you can see for yourself.

I feel you are grossly underestimating the power that has been given to Wolf.

 

[Blank Mauser]

actually, wolf seems very light. Fox/falco are much heavier than him

Fox and Falco simply play faster(As in faster hops and physics altogether), they are all part of the fast faller category and are all prone to that weakness of being combo'd.

 

[Deleted member]

lolno. there is a difference between weight and fallspeed (see DDD).

at skstylez btw

 

[Blank Mauser]

JCaesar at yesterday's tournament was in the finals against a Diddy. The Diddy had already beaten his ROB and Squirtle (an accepted top 3 character), so JC switched to Wolf and did remarkably better winning 2 games in the finals. Both games were played on neutrals while the only games he won with his mains, including Squirtle, were on his counterpicks.

By the way, JCaesar not only doesn't play Wolf but rarely jokingly uses him. He will be posting vidz soon, and you can see for yourself.

I feel you are grossly underestimating the power that has been given to Wolf.

Perhaps his Wolf is better with handling Diddy? You know, since Wolf is all instant aerials(Which picks up bananas), has an amazing Dacus(Also picks up bananas) and a shine to reflect projectiles?

Or perhaps the Diddy was caught off-guard by Wolf and wasn't prepared for him.

Or a combination of both factors and more.

 

[Revven]

JCaesar at yesterday's tournament was in the finals against a Diddy. The Diddy had already beaten his ROB and Squirtle (an accepted top 3 character), so JC switched to Wolf and did remarkably better winning 2 games in the finals. Both games were played on neutrals while the only games he won with his mains, including Squirtle, were on his counterpicks.

By the way, JCaesar not only doesn't play Wolf but rarely jokingly uses him. He will be posting vidz soon, and you can see for yourself.

I feel you are grossly underestimating the power that has been given to Wolf.

Wolf is easy to use, so what? It's only one tournament, and I also know Seagull uses Wolf too but wasn't there. It was one small tourney though and Guy isn't the best Diddy either. You're going to base the THREE tweaks given to Wolf (two of which were already in place for months, we just fixed their codings) and one of which is a situational KO move? (Which btw, his only way to legitimately get it in a combo is Dair > Side B which need I remind you can be DI'd?) Furthermore, Wolf is still incredibly easy to gimp and suffers to combos easily despite how "light" he may feel (he has different gravity settings and are quite strange).

The rest of Wolf was just done from the gameplay changes. It sounds to me that Guy didn't have any Wolf experience at all because if JC could beat Guy's Diddy with Wolf then that doesn't mean Wolf is 2gud, it means Guy lacked the Wolf experience to beat Wolf. Wolf is not top 5, I am telling you this. If he was in top 10 before, we wouldn't have given him the Side B change (which isn't even that game breaking of a change, it's just a KB and angle change, makes it worthwhile when you land it).

Wolf is not top 5, he may be high tier now but definitely not top 5, that's grossly exaggerated.