Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I love to argue against those who believe Sakurai is god and a blind follower of him.


I love using his own words against them

 

[Radical Dreamer]

The red text makes RDK look vain.

Now, I love Melee and I played it for six good years. But amidst all the posts by Melee purists claiming that Brawl ruined their favorite game, I feel there are some important things that need to be stated.

1.) Brawl is not Melee ~ I'm baffled at how many people wanted the veterans to keep their exact same move sets, damage percentages, and physics. Did people really expect Sakurai to simply throw in a dozen Newcomers into Melee and call it a day? For some narrow-minded folks, any change to Melee is automatically seen as negative: Fox's forward smash has less knock back? THAT SUCKS. Peach's Bomber has more knock back? THAT SUCKS. Game & Watch is better in every way? THAT SUCKS. It's no secret that Melee is fairly unbalanced when players learn to exploit certain characters for years to where only a handful of the cast has a decent chance. Brawl is not Melee--it mended several of Melee's balancing problems. Every character is good, every character has obvious strengths and weaknesses. All six of the heavyweights are fun to use, potent in combat, and can easily hold their own against the lighter, quicker characters.

2.) Exploits do not make good game play ~ Yeah, this is directed towards you wave dashers. It was never meant to be in the game--deal with it. Proof? Sakurai cut it out of Brawl. The main reason for this is because the game was never meant to be played with constant jumping+air-dodging. If that's your bag, you're free to continue enjoying Melee, but for the rest of the world that feels that tapping shield hundreds of times a match is about as fun as mashing the D-pad in Mario Kart DS, the removal of repetitive exploits like this is only a good thing. I don't like moves that completely nullify other moves (why walk/run when you can wave dash?)...that's the core definition of imbalance.

3.) Slightly slower game play = more control ~ Brawl is a fairly quick game, but Melee felt completely out-of-control at times. When a Fox or Falco could shine a player off a ledge for four lives in twenty seconds, that's just ridiculous. Brawl tweaks the feel of the game to where advanced techniques like short hop aerials are much more fluid and intuitive to pull off and players generally feel more in-control of everything. You can even turn off "up-tap to jump", making up-tilts and short hop u-airs a grand possibility once more!

4.) The air-game and edge-guarding ~ Every character's recovery is quite good now, despite the lack of the "third jump" air-dodge. While some have complained that the edge is too easy to grab, I find this makes for a much more in-depth edge-guarding game. Since most characters will return to the ledge, players are now encouraged to give chase off the platform and attempt to meteor smash or slam them back again. That, with the increased floatiness and multiple air-dodges/item catching, makes for some magnificent aerial combat. Now more than ever, smash attack spamming won't work when the opponent keeps dropping in from above with their d-air, juggling you upward, then comboing you off the top of the screen.

Brawl's mechanics simply feel way better all-around. I feel in complete control of the match, the roster seems extremely balanced, and the removal of (in my opinion, lame) mechanics like wave dashing and L-canceling make the matches more than L/R click fests.

You are ********.

The difference between the low and high tier characters in melee was much higher than those in Brawl. How can you compare fox to Mewtwo? They are just too different. Brawl on the other hand has no huge skill difference like that. You can be good with anyone if you practice and there is no worst character.

P.S. Ok fine IC is MIDDLE/UPPER tier, but I also play a lot of Link Kirby and G&W. Also, I can't seem to see why Snake is in the top tier. Metaknight I can understand but Snake...I don't know.

You are ********.

 

[Adroit_17]

You are ********.

seconded...

i agree there are people who are ridiculous melee purists...

i was excited for a new game, brawl just wasnt a game i enjoyed.

There is strategy in brawl, i just dont enjoy the strategery.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I have a lot of fun with Brawl. Maybe because I'm the most aggressive player ever so not much camping ever goes on. Also, I see Brawl as just...Brawl. Not the sequel to Melee. Just Brawl.

 

[Wuss]

Rofl, thanks Frost for bringing out the information that Falco now has a shinespike.

But anyways, seemingly Dexter Morgan sees melee as too hard of a game simply because he himself doesn't seem to have any degree of control over his characters, so he prefers the easy way of buffering system on brawl and other stuff. The fact that he gets waveshined off stage by foxes (and falcos too lolz) 4 times in a row in 20 seconds tells a lot about lacking in control. Also uptilts and short hopped uairs being too hard on melee? One of the most basic moves in smash is out of control, too good.

Let's not forget that Sakurai himself said on an interview that they intentionally left wavedash in, lol.

yea, I second this post. Crying that melee was too hard to play isn't an argument for or against brawl. It's just an opinion. And saying that you feel in complete control over your character in brawl shows that you really never played melee, cause if you play melee well, you can reach a level of control I have yet to experience in any other game, especially not brawl. Lulz at being shinespiked 4 times in 20 seconds. If that actually happened to anyone other than a lvl 1 computer or an empty slot must have a problem. Can you actually move the joystick? If not, you may have a reason for being shine spiked like that...

 

[Sliq]

ITT people that never played Melee competitively say Brawl is more balanced.

 

[Neverender]

ITT people that never played Melee competitively say Brawl is more balanced.

No it's more like, ITT Brawl>Melee.

 

[St. Viers]

^^too true

 

[Sliq]

ITT nobodies that sucked in Melee state their ******** opinions.

 

[Neverender]

ITT nobodies that sucked in Melee state their ******** opinions.

ITT nobodies that sucked in SMASH state their ******** opinions. Good day sir.

 

[∫unk]

Guys you can't beat Sliq. On smashboards, in real life, or even on final destination. Just give up.

 

[St. Viers]

how about with fox, and no items...?

jk, sliq is too good >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

ITT: We worship Sliq and his manliness.

 

[Neverender]

ITT Sliq being Sliq.

 

[Sliq]

ITT Sliq being Sliq.

Can't disagree with that.

 

[ShadowLink84]

IIT: We stop using ITT.

Whoops CONTRADICTION!

 

[Neverender]

IIT: We stop using ITT.

Whoops CONTRADICTION!

OBJECTION!

 

[∫unk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPtEQCVRy6Q

 

[Neverender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPtEQCVRy6Q

That is EXACTLY what i mean.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What has me bothered about the Brawl arguements is that there seems to be very little knowledge of the advanced techniques so far to warrent declaring them non-existent. So far, Snakes mortars/grenades, pikachu's QAC, and so on have only been discovered in top tier characters. We don't know the tricks of the lower tiered characters yet. So declaring waveshining and L-cancelling as an evener of melee's playing field doesn't work for a game as new as Brawl, where there are many, consistenly being discovered tricks that are only starting to be exploited.

This does not mean one game is more balanced than the other, just that using advanced techniques as a defence doesn't really work yet.

 

[Neverender]

What has me bothered about the Brawl arguements is that there seems to be very little knowledge of the advanced techniques so far to warrent declaring them non-existent. So far, Snakes mortars/grenades, pikachu's QAC, and so on have only been discovered in top tier characters. We don't know the tricks of the lower tiered characters yet. So declaring waveshining and L-cancelling as an evener of melee's playing field doesn't work for a game as new as Brawl, where there are many, consistenly being discovered tricks that are only starting to be exploited.

This does not mean one game is more balanced than the other, just that using advanced techniques as a defence doesn't really work yet.

Brawl is just too slow and floaty. Like YOU'RE TOO SLOW!

 

[redgreenblue]

I feel that Brawl is less balanced for one, huge, enormous difference: no L-canceling. L canceling is what made ganondorf playable, what made falcon godly, what made gimpyfish so fluid with bowser. The laggier characters are as good as useless in brawl without it.

 

[Lord Viper]

I love to argue against those who believe Sakurai is god and a blind follower of him.

So your going to argue with all the Kirby fans eh? Because he is the creater of Kirby and some of the fans do say that he is..... god, lol.


Back on Track: As I said a month ago, this thread has a conclusion and served it's purpose, so why is this thread still here?

 

[Zankoku]

What's the conclusion, here? People are still saying it's more balanced, and others are saying it's less balanced.

 

[∫unk]

I believe the conclusion is it's too early to tell.

 

[Neverender]

I feel that Brawl is less balanced for one, huge, enormous difference: no L-canceling. L canceling is what made ganondorf playable, what made falcon godly, what made gimpyfish so fluid with bowser. The laggier characters are as good as useless in brawl without it.

Yeah with L canceling being taken out its hard for the heavies now. They have a tough time approaching characters like wolf, marth, fox etc.

 

[Byronman]

I believe the conclusion is it's too early to tell.

I think it is safe to leave it at that.

 

[GofG]

This analogy has been used before, but I think it needs to be reiterated.

A chess grandmaster who has played chess all of his life does not need more than a few months to know that Tic Tac Toe cannot possibly ever be as competitive as chess is.

This is the most extreme example of what is going on with Melee vs Brawl. People who played Melee know that Brawl is not as competitive, for the same reason as the whole chess vs tictactoe thing. It's not "too early to tell." No one is ever going to find some advanced techniques for tic tac toe that break the game.

 

[St. Viers]

^^grandchessmaster? try anyone with a brain. And make it 5 minutes. Tic tac toe has like 3-4 variations.

but the analogy stands, somewhat

 

[GofG]

I didn't say the analogy was accurate at all, only that it correctly portrays the current situation. Obviously a chess grandmaster, upon first learning the rules of tic tac toe, probably wouldn't even need to play the game before laughing at it and mocking it.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

with more characters, it's harder to balance, logically it should be more un-balanced...

of course, the top and the high tier characters are gonna be considered "the best," the middle tier characters will simply be at a higher disadvantage in comparison to an arbitrary middle tier vs arbitrary high/top tier character just because there are more characters in the top and high tiers. The absense of l-cancelling, as redgreenblue said, really hurts a lot of characters. It's what made gdorf and bowser playable in melee for me and now (especially gdorf) it's hard for me to even look at them.

I'm not even claiming to have played melee competitively, and i probably wont have the chance to play brawl competitively either because of location and sport issues. Overall i think i had about as much fun with melee as i do now with brawl and in that aspect i dont care if a brawl "dies" because of the balance issues, but, as i said, blame math for the balance, then blame nintendo because they dont patch their games.

inb4 NOOB OPINION (zomg, only 60 posts!), but i guess im agreeing that melee is more balanced...and the vets dont seem to care as long as you agree....

 

[da K.I.D.]

name one character that is unplayable in brawl, name one char. in brawl that gets beat by the rest of the cast, that doesnt stand a chance against anybody except in a mirror match.

i still dont believe that snake and meta knight **** as hard as fox and falco in melee. i also dont believe that CF and ganon this time around were as horrendous as pichu and Mewtwo were in melee, the gaps between the best and worst characters are smaller in brawl, hence, brawl is the more balenced game

 

[∫unk]

This analogy has been used before, but I think it needs to be reiterated.

A chess grandmaster who has played chess all of his life does not need more than a few months to know that Tic Tac Toe cannot possibly ever be as competitive as chess is.

This is the most extreme example of what is going on with Melee vs Brawl. People who played Melee know that Brawl is not as competitive, for the same reason as the whole chess vs tictactoe thing. It's not "too early to tell." No one is ever going to find some advanced techniques for tic tac toe that break the game.

lol we're talking about the balance not whether or not it's more competitive. related but different topics. melee is obviously more competitive. however, there's more competition in brawl.

whether the game is balanced will take time. this happens in all fighting games. you don't need to find an AT for shifts in a metagame. you can find a more successful strategy.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

name one character that is unplayable in brawl, name one char. in brawl that gets beat by the rest of the cast, that doesnt stand a chance against anybody except in a mirror match.

i still dont believe that snake and meta knight **** as hard as fox and falco in melee. i also dont believe that CF and ganon this time around were as horrendous as pichu and Mewtwo were in melee, the gaps between the best and worst characters are smaller in brawl, hence, brawl is the more balenced game

You are ********.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Beat by "the rest of the cast" is not what matters. What you really should be asking is "how many characters don't have a disadvantage against Snake and Metaknight." Why is it that when we talk about melee nobody cares about any matchups except against Fox, Falco, Marth, and Shiek, but as soon as we talk about brawl people start to pull up mid and low tier matchups to argue for balance. In case you didn't notice, mid tiers had good matchups in melee too! Ice Climbers was even considered a hard counter for Shiek for a while (I personally think soft counter).

Snake and Metaknight **** Ganon and Captain Falcon just as hard as any melee matchup. You're obviusly misinformed if you think that Falco is dominating the tournament scene in melee. In reality, it was Fox, Marth, and Shiek, who were doing the best, followed by Falco, Captain Falcon, Peach, Ice Climbers (go Chu) and recently Jigglypuff.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

You are ********.

If you can't make a constructive post, don't make one at all.

I keep on seeing this tournament placing cited, stating that 5 metaknights and 1 snake are a good representative of every tourney in the US. Is it? Is it really? I've been seeing these characters getting their ***** whooped by other lower tier, competent players (futile's wario, anyone?)

 

[Radical Dreamer]

How about if people can't make posts that reflect actual knowledge of the game, they don't make posts at all?

Fact of the matter is that Snake and Metaknight are easily two of Brawl's most dominant characters. At Pound 3 Mango's Jigglypuff beat M2K's Marth, Fox and Sheik.

 

[Thinkaman]

Results

singles ( 80 total entrants)

bracket can be viewed here : http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8479/jcccbrawlbracketdi9.gif

1) tie (time constraints) darkrain (DK) / chexr (wolf/kirby)
3) TTT (DK)
4) phatgamer (G&W)
5) smeesh (peach)
5) SDM (ROB)
7) seanson (Lucas)
7) chris i (G&W)
9) karmacide (snake)
9) duck (ROB)
9) affinity (metaknight)
9) dmac (fox)
13) bozzar (ddd)
13) john (wario)
13) jace (falco/pit)
13) attackstorm (falco)
17) flux (marth?)
17) pyro (lucario)
17) massive (ness)
17) paradox (?)
17) jturley (marth/toon link)
17) stealth (pikachu / IC / ROB)
17) xion (sonic)
17) zeno (?)
25) lowki (wario)
25) tico (?)
25) nynja (diddy)
25) ashen (metaknight)
25) murn (pit)
25) papermarkis (metaknight/PT)
25) vars (?)
25) legan (Link)

teams (28 total entrants)

1) darkrain(dk) / dmac ( fox)
2) chexr (wolf) / flux (marth)
3) phatgamer(gw) / dyc ( lucario)

nb4 "Midwest doesn't count".

 

[betterthanbonds9]

As an example of middle vs a top: lucario is a very good matchup versus metaknight because of the priority in the air for lucario and AS absolutely ***** metaknight...of course, there are more reasons...

I haven't checked the "dont use lucas or ness in tournaments" topic lately, nor do i use characters that can pull it off (), but for those that can, how bad is the marth vs lucas/ness matchup now?

 

[∫unk]

k at the biggest brawl tournament so far Wario got 1st and 3rd, beating out many good MKs and Snakes

People will adapt to snake and meta... they'll still be **** hard to beat, but they won't be (actually they already aren't) as dominant as they were for the first few tournies.