Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Fletch]

Feel free to wager on that, you'll see otherwise.

Just by the way you post, I will put whatever money you want to wager on Corey beating you in Melee easily.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I have yet to be shown anything otherwise.

I can beat 90% of my school as Roy (I main Samus), because I practice, play a lot, and know how to use him. I'm better, therefore I win.

In Brawl, I spend all my time as Pit. I can beat anyone in a FFA by camping, and, in a 1 v 1... the same thing. I spend the whole time running away and shooting. It sucks to win in Brawl, because it feels like I did nothing. If I lose in Brawl, it's because I was doing too much! The only way to beat me when I'm camping correctly, is to play Snake or Metaknight (possibly Falco... but that's a big if).

To win in Brawl, you have to play the character select screen game and have an IQ larger than your controller port. That's all.

How much do YOU want to wager?

Uh... You DO realize that running away and camping with Pit is a very ineffective strategy against good opponents, right?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Uh... You DO realize that running away and camping with Pit is a very ineffective strategy against good opponents, right?

Or at least competent Snakes that know how to Boost Smash or lob grenades.

>.>;

Smooth Criminal

 

[Corigames]

Uh... You DO realize that running away and camping with Pit is a very ineffective strategy against good opponents, right?

Yeah, good opponents would choose Snake or Metaknight.

 

[Fafnir]

2) Yes, there are tiers, and the characters lower in these tiers are worse than the others. The characters at the absolute bottom die to everything. This is hardly an uncommon feature in fighting games, as the only way to avoid it is to have no distinct characters.

Not always true. I mean, Gimpyfish is an obvious example, and in other fighting games, like Guilty Gear, in the first ^C tourney, the winner was a Johnny player, who happened to be the worst character in the game(tied with Bridget and Anji).

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Well, I only decided that I enjoyed Snake the most like last week. I mained random since the game came out ^_^''

I had trouble with projectile spammers for like the first 2-3 weeks the game came out. But I got better and learned how to get around it. And I also learned how to powershield them quite easily. Pit's projectile spam isn't that hard to get around with most characters.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't see why everyone's so hung up on Pit as projectile lord. IMO Tink has the best projectile spam in the game =\

 

[Empy]

Well, I only decided that I enjoyed Snake the most like last week. I mained random since the game came out ^_^''

I had trouble with projectile spammers for like the first 2-3 weeks the game came out. But I got better and learned how to get around it. And I also learned how to powershield them quite easily. Pit's projectile spam isn't that hard to get around with most characters.

I've tried Snake but don't like him cuz your always gonna be the favorite.

Anyway, I think Wolf is way worse a projectile spammer. I have one friend that uses just blaster. If I make an approach he'll wait until I'm at sword range and do nothing, then shield once I jump or just blaster when I approach for the grab, cuz the sword on it hits for even more damage if he messes up. Anyway, I can get around it quite well but it did annoy me at first.

Also, he suicides until he's out of stock when I'm in front and not wanting to make an approach. He'll try a few times by "approaching" to running a bit forward and blastering again but when I step out of his blaster range he gives up on the match right away.

 

[SheikSmasher]

I think brawl is a bit more balanced then it was in melee from experience with sheik it was fair to nerf her however she got badly nerfed which definitely made it unfair on her part and many other characters for example Capt Falcon has received a lot of low placements on the discussions for the brawl tier list.

 

[Zankoku]

Nerfing a couple of formerly amazing characters does not necessarily balance the game.

 

[Fawriel]

Especially when it's done so arbitrarily...
Samus and Falcon, who were never that good, had everything taken from them that defined them in the first place.
Falco and Marth, not so much.

It would be interesting to make a detailed graph of how characters were changed. And another one for newcomers. Just, you know, for fun. I'm still trying to figure out what on earth they were thinking, giving nerfs and buffs to Marth and buffs and nerfs to, say, Yoshi.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yoshi seems just around what he was in Melee.


Yet again, that's just me

 

[Amarkov]

Not always true. I mean, Gimpyfish is an obvious example, and in other fighting games, like Guilty Gear, in the first ^C tourney, the winner was a Johnny player, who happened to be the worst character in the game(tied with Bridget and Anji).

There are times when bottom tier characters win. Usually, though, that's because the person playing them is really good, and not because the character itself stands much of a chance.

Anyway, I think it's fairly obvious that Melee and Brawl both have sucky lower tiers (although there is the occasional player that pulls a character from them and wins). "Low tiers die!" is hardly a good argument for Melee being more balanced.

 

[Mr.C]

BOFO is mentally ********.

 

[Blad01]

I think that Brawl's Low Tier are better than Melee's, but i don't think that Brawl is SO much more balanced than Melee.

 

[Mr.C]

Matches between Mid vs Low tier are much closer in Brawl. The problem is when you compare the best characters like Snake, Mk, Rob to Mid/Low tier characters. The gap between the best and the average/lesser characters is far more obvious in Brawl than in Melee (except Pichu).

A mix of ledge guarding gimps, lcanceling, wding and other similar things in Melee allowed the lesser characters to compete vs the best, in Brawl all of these were eliminated, so pretty much all you have to rely on is your characters moveset/lag. To put it simply, some characters just can't do **** vs other characters.

Now, when comparing glitches etc, a lot of glitches in Melee (WD'ing, Ledge canceling etc) if you were to call those glitches helped the overall meta-game. Brawl's glitches for the most part make some characters useless due to the games engine.

Brawl is pretty balanced overall, so was Melee. But when comparing how useful the majority of the characters were in the games, Melee is far superior.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Before the balance of Brawl characters is further critisized, has anyone genuinely taken the time to get good at Captain Falcon or Gannondorf? Atmittedly, I have no idea what the new potentials for these characters are, because I never bothered to try getting past their nerfs. For all I know, they could be terribly underestimated because of the large number of their disapointed fans who never bothered to learn their new set-up. I have yet to see an objective opinion of these characters on one of these non-character specific forums.

 

[Grunt]

Before the balance of Brawl characters is further critisized, has anyone genuinely taken the time to get good at Captain Falcon or Gannondorf? Atmittedly, I have no idea what the new potentials for these characters are, because I never bothered to try getting past their nerfs. For all I know, they could be terribly underestimated because of the large number of their disapointed fans who never bothered to learn their new set-up. I have yet to see an objective opinion of these characters on one of these non-character specific forums.

No, they are fun, but still very bad compared to nearly everyone else.

 

[Pythag]

I've had huge internal struggles regarding the balance of Brawl and Melee.

Personally, one way I feel it's balanced is the combos, or lack thereof.
I like to view Melee as Tekken 3 and Brawl as Soul Caliber in this respect:
Melee was dial-a-combo. Hit once and everything hits, and nothing your victim can do will change that.
Brawl comes more from the mind set of : "We're giving you all these moves, it's up to you to capitalize upon what your opponent is doing at that very second. Nothing is guaranteed, it's up to how fast you're thinking during the game.
As a DK main, I feel that brawl is more balanced now, because if I ever get shined, it's not a stock loss.

On the flip side, there are things that are in Brawl that are a slap in the face to everything I just mentioned. Case in point, DDD's infinite chain grab. WTF? Nintendo takes out so many "good" glitches, and fails to get rid of this glaring error? That's more of a rant, but still. I think that the new "combo" system actually balances things a lot more.

 

[Byronman]

I feel that brawl is more balanced. All the characters (including their abilities) are the same to me. I see barley any difference in their usefulness in a match. Each one has its good parts and its faults and an aspect that makes it unique. You could main anyone and still be the best. Melee seemed highly unbalanced as Fox and Falco were 10 times better than any character and any n00b could win a match using them. Their techniques and movements were unmatched in that game, and most people mained them. Now to me they seem weaker in brawl, which definitely makes it more balanced.

I don't know if this makes me biased or not but I generally main lower tier characters like IC.

 

[Smashbros_7]

From some old post on AiB:
Credit to CubaIsDeath for the video.
I saw this and I think it pretty much sucks, as in I'm dissapointed that it exists.

http://www.allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=1041


but at least Ness can do it. woohoo...

From the youtube description:
Mario: Jab
Dk: Jab
Metaknight: Jab and Dtilt
Marth: Jab (but only a certain part of the hitbox)
Samus: Jab
Kirby: Jab
Ness: Jab
Squirtle: Jab, Double Jab, and Ftilt
Link: Jab
Yoshi: Jab
Sonic: Jab
R.O.B.: Dtilt
Wolf: Nair
King Dedede: Jab (very hard to do)

*******.

From all of your other posts, you think Ness sucks.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

I feel that brawl is more balanced. All the characters (including their abilities) are the same to me. I see barley any difference in their usefulness in a match. Each one has its good parts and its faults and an aspect that makes it unique. You could main anyone and still be the best. Melee seemed highly unbalanced as Fox and Falco were 10 times better than any character and any n00b could win a match using them. Their techniques and movements were unmatched in that game, and most people mained them. Now to me they seem weaker in brawl, which definitely makes it more balanced.

I don't know if this makes me biased or not but I generally main lower tier characters like IC.

False, false, false.

Fox was only 10 times better than any other character if you were playing a noob 10 times worse than you.

Just because they weakened the stronger characters from Melee ---> Brawl does not automatically make it more balanced, especially if they throw in a character that is top tier even at mid level play, such as Snake and Metaknight.

And calling Ice Climbres low tier? Yeah you have no right to talk about balance. Lrn2ply.

 

[Sliq]

Before the balance of Brawl characters is further critisized, has anyone genuinely taken the time to get good at Captain Falcon or Gannondorf? Atmittedly, I have no idea what the new potentials for these characters are, because I never bothered to try getting past their nerfs. For all I know, they could be terribly underestimated because of the large number of their disapointed fans who never bothered to learn their new set-up. I have yet to see an objective opinion of these characters on one of these non-character specific forums.

I main Ganondorf in Brawl. Melee is more balanced.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness is still in bottom; I'm not sure where you got that.

The metagame changed so slowly mainly because there weren't a good deal of competitive players finding all the nuances of the game. From SmashWiki:


Currently we've got tournaments with populations of over 40, held nearly every week, in several different parts of the country. The development of the metagame is, to say the least, far faster than what you'd've seen for Melee's early years.

You can see the shifting around of top 5 as AMAZING CHANGES TO METAGAME, but all I see it as is people discovering the best five characters in the game as early as 2002, and people continuing to view those characters as the best for the remaining lifetime of Melee.

Again, Ness hater + ***.

Your pissing me off.

 

[Zankoku]

Again, Ness hater + ***.

Your pissing me off.

You're trolling my posts and I have no idea who you are, but I'd appreciate some reasoning behind what you're trying to say - that Ness isn't a mediocre or worse character.

After all, you failed to give any reasoning behind instigating all the fire in the Peach boards, if I remember correctly.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Thats Simna's other account Ankoku, why else would he be so butt hurt over the fact that Ness sucks.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I feel that brawl is more balanced. All the characters (including their abilities) are the same to me. I see barley any difference in their usefulness in a match. Each one has its good parts and its faults and an aspect that makes it unique. You could main anyone and still be the best. Melee seemed highly unbalanced as Fox and Falco were 10 times better than any character and any n00b could win a match using them. Their techniques and movements were unmatched in that game, and most people mained them. Now to me they seem weaker in brawl, which definitely makes it more balanced.

I don't know if this makes me biased or not but I generally main lower tier characters like IC.

Another ******.

 

[Corigames]

Aww come on school match's don't count I could beat most of my school with my feet. If my friends were not playing>.> We had one teacher that was pretty awesome with samus.

AZ Power Rankings

Being "on" the same list as Taj, Wobbles, and Forward credit me any further then?

 

[∫unk]

I have yet to be shown anything otherwise.

I can beat 90% of my school as Roy (I main Samus), because I practice, play a lot, and know how to use him. I'm better, therefore I win.

In Brawl, I spend all my time as Pit. I can beat anyone in a FFA by camping, and, in a 1 v 1... the same thing. I spend the whole time running away and shooting. It sucks to win in Brawl, because it feels like I did nothing. If I lose in Brawl, it's because I was doing too much! The only way to beat me when I'm camping correctly, is to play Snake or Metaknight (possibly Falco... but that's a big if).

To win in Brawl, you have to play the character select screen game and have an IQ larger than your controller port. That's all.

How much do YOU want to wager?

lol you clearly need to play more brawl if:
1) you think pit only loses to meta and snake.
2) running away and shooting will win against anyone good.

don't get me wrong camping is a decent tactic and will work, but it has been since 64 but there have always been ways around it. even in the defensive system of brawl you can get around through smart (and sadly) slow approaching. you're right in that it does make a match way longer and less fun, but you're in control of that.

take a look at the results from the UCLA tournament, I believe the metagame is more developed there as people are learning how to deal with snake (he's still ridiculous).

brawl and melee are about the same. I can still beat people worse than me with ganondorf in brawl just because i can read them so easily. melee I could beat people because they didn't know ATs.

what makes brawl fun is the amount of viable characters (which is more than melee). there's still a small top tier, but on any given day a random mid tier has a higher chance of winning at a brawl tournament than a melee tournament.

what makes melee fun is the speed and depth of the game. brawl will never come close in this regard.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Brawl has larger disparities than Melee. Obviously if you read people easily, you'll beat them most of the time. But that is more true for melee than brawl. That is because in general punishments in melee are harder than in brawl. If i techchase someone's roll with ganon's stomp in melee, i can combo into something else. If i techchase someone's roll with ganon's stomp in brawl, i might be able to get another hit off, but it depends.
In melee, I still had some decent combos and gimps available to me. If i was playing pichu against space animals, I didn't need to rack them up to high percentage to kill them. I could combo and gimp. Brawl offer so much less of those that now characters with inherent disadvantages don't have a way to cheat those deficiencies. Instead of having to outplay the opponent a couple times, now I have to outplay the opponent a dozen times, before I can take a stock.
A personal issue I'm annoyed with is why Brawl ganon got shafted so much. He wasn't good in melee. Now they make him worse? BLehhhh..

 

[Fletch]

what makes brawl fun is the amount of viable characters (which is more than melee). there's still a small top tier, but on any given day a random mid tier has a higher chance of winning at a brawl tournament than a melee tournament.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see this. In Melee, it was probably possible for Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, ICs, Samus, or Jiggles to win a pretty decent sized tournament, and even this early in the game with Brawl (where more characters should be getting more playing time), we are already seeing a scene completely dominated by 2 characters, with very few exceptions. The other characters might be closer to each other in terms of ability, but MK and Snake trump most of them way more than the top tiers in Melee did.

 

[Byronman]

False, false, false.

Fox was only 10 times better than any other character if you were playing a noob 10 times worse than you.

Just because they weakened the stronger characters from Melee ---> Brawl does not automatically make it more balanced, especially if they throw in a character that is top tier even at mid level play, such as Snake and Metaknight.

And calling Ice Climbres low tier? Yeah you have no right to talk about balance. Lrn2ply.

The difference between the low and high tier characters in melee was much higher than those in Brawl. How can you compare fox to Mewtwo? They are just too different. Brawl on the other hand has no huge skill difference like that. You can be good with anyone if you practice and there is no worst character.

P.S. Ok fine IC is MIDDLE/UPPER tier, but I also play a lot of Link Kirby and G&W. Also, I can't seem to see why Snake is in the top tier. Metaknight I can understand but Snake...I don't know.

 

[Zankoku]

How can you compare fox to Mewtwo?

How can you compare Meta Knight to Captain Falcon?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I would say just about everyone above Ganondorf in Melee was useful and viable in Melee.


And I wouldn't say MK is quite as dominant as he was before, judging by Ankoku Tournament placings list, he's really fallen behind in terms of wins. He's coming down to earth, the question is, Will Snake do the same?

 

[Byronman]

How can you compare Meta Knight to Captain Falcon?

Metaknight is good, but captain falcon is good too. Do you honestly think captain falcon is that bad? Also, MK would not be my first choice for a top tier character, but that is just opinionated

 

[Zankoku]

Can you actually say with a straight face that Captain Falcon is good?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Reubh68wwIc

 

[Kalm]

It seems that once a character gets into Mid Tier, they've got reasonable chances of beating many of the characters above them. Getting down to the bottom where Ganondorf and Falcon seems to mean you've crossed a huge gap in usefulness as well.
So, we still have our trash characters just like we had in Melee, but don't we have less trash characters now and before? How does that number compare with the change in rosters?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

The difference between the low and high tier characters in melee was much higher than those in Brawl. How can you compare fox to Mewtwo? They are just too different. Brawl on the other hand has no huge skill difference like that. You can be good with anyone if you practice and there is no worst character.
P.S. Ok fine IC is MIDDLE/UPPER tier, but I also play a lot of Link Kirby and G&W. Also, I can't seem to see why Snake is in the top tier. Metaknight I can understand but Snake...I don't know.

*Facepalm*


Another scrub argument containing the "Every character is good, you just have to know how to use them" arguement. When will people realize that it could apply to ANYONE and it's a terrible arguement? Some characters are inheritly better than others, even Sakurai himself admitted that in certain situation in where he HAD to win, he would choose a certain few characters. Doesn't that imply to you that this game is not balanced?


You know a game is not balanced when the CREATOR of the game says something along the lines of that, not to mention the other truckloads of facts against Brawl being more balanced than Melee against almost no proof Brawl>Melee supporters bring to the table.

 

[Byronman]

Can you actually say with a straight face that Captain Falcon is good?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Reubh68wwIc

So that person was trying to do the same move over and over again. Anyone can ply a character badly then post it on youtube.

 

[Byronman]

*Facepalm*


Another scrub argument containing the "Every character is good, you just have to know how to use them" arguement. When will people realize that it could apply to ANYONE and it's a terrible arguement? Some characters are inheritly better than others, even Sakurai himself admitted that in certain situation in where he HAD to win, he would choose a certain few characters. Doesn't that imply to you that this game is not balanced?


You know a game is not balanced when the CREATOR of the game says something along the lines of that, not to mention the other truckloads of facts against Brawl being more balanced than Melee against almost no proof Brawl>Melee supporters bring to the table.

Of course there are some characters that are better than others! There are just less completely horrible characters in brawl than in melee. Also what facts do you have against brawl being more balanced?