Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Emblem Lord]

Mad Lucario hatred. LOL.

 

[hizzlum]

Mad Lucario hatred. LOL.

So true but the people on marth's side are actually giving a decent and legitamate anwser while the people supporting lucario and pointing out more of marth's weaknesses that lucario cant really punish. LUCARIO CAN NOT DO 12 AERIALS OFF THE STAGE, while marth can actually pull out the multiple edgeguarding techinques created by pros in melee that still work in brawl that are efficient, unpredictable, deadly, and not risky. Lucario's damage aura ability make it difficult to have set combos or techniques beacuse of varying knockbcak and stun time, so unless your a super computer and know an effective combo at every single percent up to about 200% it will be hard to have effective combos that cannot be punsihed

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You have a question mark on the Wolf/Marth and a blank spot on the Wolf/Zelda.
I main Wolf, and have a fair amount of experience against a competitive Marth, and 2 competitive Zeldas.

On the Wolf boards, these 2 characters have been pretty much named the best counterpick against Wolf. Go there and check out their reasonings if you don't find mine adequate enough to modify your chart with.

Most of Wolf's aerial approaches to a landed Zelda result in getting stuck in her up smash. RAR shBair (Wolf's best midair priority move) even gets pulled into the attack. Wolf's 0-lag shFair can easily be sweetspotted by Zelda's hell foot, she can even start her short hop slightly after the Wolf and still manage to get the move through.Since Wolf has the ability to do a 0-lag shFair (making his dair his only aerial with landing lag), his playing style has evolved to hitting someone with a short hopped aerial and DI'ing appropriately to try to keep somebody getting hitstunned by his other aerials, using his low-knockback uair as a bad-*** juggle move.
The problem with this is a character like Marth, who the more I try to chase, the better his attacks come in range, especially if he attacks soon to tip. The more aggro of a Wolf player you are, the better a Marth will be able to hit you, so you have to completely rethink your offense, and risk getting within sword-reach to get any hits in. Blaster is too slow of a projectile to really pull your attack strings together with against him as well.

so I again ask... why is wolf markd as > zelda when she is a counterpick against him?

Also, I see no reasoning for wario to be good vs. zelda at all...

... finally for zelda, I've never had trouble with G&W or ness, II always thought the matchup was even... but I'm a lot more able to be convinced otherwise on this one

... and, other than the OP and the one guy who came in on a rant, most everyone I've been able to get an opinion from says that sonic Vs. Olimar is an even matchup... the most they'll give olimar is a 6/4 and some people give sonic the 6/4. I've heard a few people giving sonic complete dominance in the matchup.. but that's just silly. quite frankly, they two have a bunch of ways to hurt each other. this matchup could be all about momentum.

 

[doodmahn]

Marth scares me.

 

[JJ259]

So true but the people on marth's side are actually giving a decent and legitamate anwser while the people supporting lucario and pointing out more of marth's weaknesses that lucario cant really punish. LUCARIO CAN NOT DO 12 AERIALS OFF THE STAGE, while marth can actually pull out the multiple edgeguarding techinques created by pros in melee that still work in brawl that are efficient, unpredictable, deadly, and not risky. Lucario's damage aura ability make it difficult to have set combos or techniques beacuse of varying knockbcak and stun time, so unless your a super computer and know an effective combo at every single percent up to about 200% it will be hard to have effective combos that cannot be punsihed

Lucario may not be able to do 12 aerials off the stage but he can do a string of attacks that can kill someone from 30% off the stage...

also, it's not like it's difficult do combo at different %'s because his best combo move, fair, changes very, very, very little as his % changes...the only thing you have to watch out for is the % of the person who you are fighting, which everyone has to watch out for.

 

[Sand-Trap]

Lucario may not be able to do 12 aerials off the stage but he can do a string of attacks that can kill someone from 30% off the stage...

I play as Lucario, and while I love the character, saying misleading things that attempt to bolster Lucario's win percentage against other characters doesn't do any good. If you're killing people from 30% with a string of combos (I'm assuming fair/nair) on a regular basis, you need to play better people, unfortunately.

Against Marth, Lucario has to space his fair correctly or else get beat by the faster fair of Marth. And if the Marth is being careful with his spacing as well, then winning will rely on rolls and being unpredictable to counter Marth's tendency to spam fairs and ftilts.

The Lucario/Zelda matchup is ridiculously in favor of Zelda. Lucario's best aerial attack, dair, gets nullified by Zelda's utilt/upsmash also completely. Her projectile is just better than Lucario's; the only time Lucario has the advantage when it comes to projectiles is when Lucario is semi-close to Zelda, because Lucario's aura sphere will hit and can be spammed faster than Zelda's Din's Fire. But Zelda can reflect the aura sphere, anyways =/. Her dtilt > Lucario's dtilt. Din's Fire can also make recovering using Lucario's lagging Extreme Speed difficult at times. Lastly, I've tried using Double Team to counter Zelda's projectiles, but I just slide in the opposite direction of her, and she has plenty of space to do her Din's Fire again =/.

Fix chart please!

 

[orintemple]

Ha, I just noticed my matchup guide was post up there XD good stuff.

Also, I love how MetaKnight has 1 bad matchup... that is sick. I am surprised by how many bad matchups Snake has, considering he is generally thought to be the best character.

And Captain Falcon makes me laugh.

 

[JJ259]

I play as Lucario, and while I love the character, saying misleading things that attempt to bolster Lucario's win percentage against other characters doesn't do any good. If you're killing people from 30% with a string of combos (I'm assuming fair/nair) on a regular basis, you need to play better people, unfortunately.

Against Marth, Lucario has to space his fair correctly or else get beat by the faster fair of Marth. And if the Marth is being careful with his spacing as well, then winning will rely on rolls and being unpredictable to counter Marth's tendency to spam fairs and ftilts.

The Lucario/Zelda matchup is ridiculously in favor of Zelda. Lucario's best aerial attack, dair, gets nullified by Zelda's utilt/upsmash also completely. Her projectile is just better than Lucario's; the only time Lucario has the advantage when it comes to projectiles is when Lucario is semi-close to Zelda, because Lucario's aura sphere will hit and can be spammed faster than Zelda's Din's Fire. But Zelda can reflect the aura sphere, anyways =/. Her dtilt > Lucario's dtilt. Din's Fire can also make recovering using Lucario's lagging Extreme Speed difficult at times. Lastly, I've tried using Double Team to counter Zelda's projectiles, but I just slide in the opposite direction of her, and she has plenty of space to do her Din's Fire again =/.

Fix chart please!

When you play zelda you should never attack from above (which it seems like you know) but I think you might have more luck if you if you go with a grounded approach. Lucario, despite what people say, has more than one useful aerial and he can chain them well from his throws (which I'm sure you also know because you play him). I will admit that Zelda makes it extremely hard to recover and that in order to get back a few nicely played air dodges and sneaky upBs are in order but once lucario is in close he seems to outshine zelda. He has enough quick long range melee moves (ftilt, utilt, fp and aaa combo) that can make the match pretty even. Zelda > Lucario at range no doubt but I think that Lucario > Zelda at close range and in the air (assuming it's relatively close ((zelda dominates if lucario is in the air and a long distance away))).

By the way, the combo I was talking about at 30% is very situational and involves a few fairs followed by a dair once the opponent is far enough off the stage. It's somewhat hard to pull off but I've done it a handful of times and it's very safe because even if it doesn't kill they usually can't recover.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I play as Lucario, and while I love the character, saying misleading things that attempt to bolster Lucario's win percentage against other characters doesn't do any good. If you're killing people from 30% with a string of combos (I'm assuming fair/nair) on a regular basis, you need to play better people, unfortunately.

Against Marth, Lucario has to space his fair correctly or else get beat by the faster fair of Marth. And if the Marth is being careful with his spacing as well, then winning will rely on rolls and being unpredictable to counter Marth's tendency to spam fairs and ftilts.

The Lucario/Zelda matchup is ridiculously in favor of Zelda. Lucario's best aerial attack, dair, gets nullified by Zelda's utilt/upsmash also completely. Her projectile is just better than Lucario's; the only time Lucario has the advantage when it comes to projectiles is when Lucario is semi-close to Zelda, because Lucario's aura sphere will hit and can be spammed faster than Zelda's Din's Fire. But Zelda can reflect the aura sphere, anyways =/. Her dtilt > Lucario's dtilt. Din's Fire can also make recovering using Lucario's lagging Extreme Speed difficult at times. Lastly, I've tried using Double Team to counter Zelda's projectiles, but I just slide in the opposite direction of her, and she has plenty of space to do her Din's Fire again =/.

Fix chart please!

As a zelda main, I can't attest to what it feels like to play as the lucario side of this matchup, but I can say that I've never particularly had any trouble here. I'm pretty sure zelda out prioritizes most of lucario's moves... she doesn't outrange them, but she doesn't need to. Lucario's got speed on zelda and can combo at mutually low damages. Also, when lucario goes on defensive, he can be d*** hard to catch, but, locked in combat, zelda dominates... she might be lighter weight, but she's also much, much stronger. I don't think it's anywhere near the most oneside match ever, but I wouldn't be surprised if zelda had the advantage.... that having een said... all I can attest to is that saying the matchup is even doesn't seem wrong to me.

 

[choknater]

I definitely think Ice Climbers should not have a check on Dedede... though, for reasons that not many would realize.

I'd first like to personally attest that both characters are my mains, and I do have extensive knowledge on what both characters are capable of.

IC's should definitely have a ~ or possibly an X against DDD. His ftilts, waddle dees, dtilts make it pretty hard to grab him, and he doesn't die so easily against the grab smashes. To be honest, very few IC players are able to do grab combos flawlessly, so death grabs are not yet a guarantee. Plus, DDD's are very potent in the air, with dairs and bair spams outranging and outmaneuvering their ground game. IC's air game and spacing game are quite weak. Though lots of DDD's good matchups are a result of his chain grab, this is an exception. DDD slightly wins this matchup because he can easily dominate the space above and around the IC's without leaving too many openings for grabs.

Another thing... IC's require a lot of running in order to space. That means trips. DDD, on the other hand, just needs to hop around and tilt sometimes. Not very much tripping. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Also, he can cg solo popo.

Why is IC's vs Ganon disputed? I'd put that in IC's favor.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake should have no bad match-ups.

 

[Browny]

except against pikachu of course

 

[Emblem Lord]

Despite the myriad of things Pika can do to Snake, I will still call that match even, simply because Snake take a bunch of punishment and pika can't afford to take hits like he can.

Snake kills everyone at like 80 while he lives till like 170. It's not fair.

 

[Pentaoku]

Lucario doesn't have it that bad against Marth.

Combos are just a plus against Marth, but he's got decent enough- oh what the heck. Wasn't there a discussion about this with Emblem Lord and Nessbounder before anyway?

Those two compromised and decided 50~50, with each their own little personal bias or thoughts that made them feel someone else had the advantage, but otherwise for the most part, equal footing... unless something new comes up, shouldn't these two be settled?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Because Marth players found some new spacing tools (shield breaker outranges everything), found new uses for his side B (move regeneration as well as damage, Roll punishment, ect.) found that his f-tilt is safe on block, started going farther off the stage for edgeguarding, found more on stage uses for up B, and a lot of other cool stuff. And as Marth players get better at spacing (since it is quite a wierd adjustment for them), they start doing better in matchups. They get hit less, they do more damage, they kill sooner, and they become much less punishable. Sure, the Lucario players are getting better too, but they have to work harder because now Marths aren't messing up their spacing as much and have found more approach (and more importantly) punishment methods. Side B is great for hitting through rolls, and shieldbreaker makes opponents...more likely to roll or spotdodge instead of shield.


I know from my arguement it sounded like I thought Marth is some super Lucario counter, but all that stuff I mentioned is why I think Marth has a reasonable advantage in the matchup, like 6-4.

 

[Illussionary]

Sorry if this is a little skimpy but for future reference:

Ice Climbers > Anybody who can be Chaingrabbed

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry if this is a little skimpy but for future reference:

Ice Climbers > Anybody who can be Chaingrabbed

I'd disagree. A chain grab alone is not enough to make them gods. It certainly increases their ranking, but there are plenty of characters who could still beat them and are able to be chain grabbed... a good example would be a charcters that they are going to have trouble approaching, like zelda, marth, lucario or meta knight.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Proper spacing>Grabs


But any character that can be infinted by them aside from the Back throw infintes is definately a hard counter.

 

[Lord Aether]

Just out of curiosity, why is Ganondorf advantageous against Ike?

 

[Negi-Kun]

Very informational. Thank you. This is a great chart to keep in mind when its Low vs. High tier. (Not that there is a tier list yet or anything.)

 

[BEES]

Still curious to see how the Falco/Pikachu matchup works out.

 

[Natch]

Lulz Pika has a one-up on any character that starts with an "S"

Also, Marth+MK=Epic combo. They each cover each other's weaknesses(however sparse they may be) very well. The common weakness they seem to share is Snake.

 

[EmuKiller]

I noticed that the information for Marth v Olimar is still a "?". I can assure you as a Marth player that marth counters olimar. His F-air can kill any pikmin that attach to him which completely destroys Olimar's use of projectiles. Also, he is incredibly good at edgeguarding olimar (via fair) which completely kills olimar due to his poor recovery. Seriously. Marth v Olimar is one of the largest counters in the game.

 

[Pacness]

Im sorry but DK is not at a disadvantage against Snake

 

[Sikarios]

Emu, the two points that you mention concerning the Marth vs. Oli matchup are true, but I don't think it is as largely in Marth's favor as you say it is. While grabs alone won't save Oli, his grab game is huge and since Marth's isn't that is a huge plus for Oli. Oli loses a few of his tools, but I think, played patiently, can adequately scrap with Marth. Metaknight is the one I'm more worried about >.<

 

[DRaGZ]

Why is R.O.B.'s match-up with Olimar disputed? R.O.B.s destroy Olimars because of f-tilt and the gyro.

Also, I dispute the Marth match-up. Marth doesn't necessarily have an advantage since R.O.B. has great range as well. It's pretty even if you ask me.

 

[Ripple]

Im sorry but DK is not at a disadvantage against Snake

True there is an entire thread dedicated to this match up in the DK forums.

DK>Snake

and I can't wait to prove that DK is even or even better than marth

 

[Illussionary]

I'd disagree. A chain grab alone is not enough to make them gods. It certainly increases their ranking, but there are plenty of characters who could still beat them and are able to be chain grabbed... a good example would be a charcters that they are going to have trouble approaching, like zelda, marth, lucario or meta knight.

A good IC like myself can grab you 0 to death, which is unescapable with the right timing/skill.

 

[YagamiLight]

I'd say Ike certainly has the upper hand against Sonic, Bowser and Mario. You have those as ?, X, X.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I noticed that the information for Marth v Olimar is still a "?". I can assure you as a Marth player that marth counters olimar. His F-air can kill any pikmin that attach to him which completely destroys Olimar's use of projectiles. Also, he is incredibly good at edgeguarding olimar (via fair) which completely kills olimar due to his poor recovery. Seriously. Marth v Olimar is one of the largest counters in the game.

Largest counter in the game? Definitely not. I'd rather be Olimar against Marth than most of the characters in the game. It seems even to me, to be honest. Definitely not a free win matchup for either of them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth goes even with Olimar.

Marth vs ROB is very close. Probably even.

Marth has slight advantage on DK.

 

[Furbs]

I feel yoshi is a little displaced as far as some match-ups go, i want to give a detailed answer to each character but toooooo much to type >< so i'll start with ike!

personally i think yoshi has a neutral, and AT BEST slight advantage over ike.

Pros:

- Yoshi is deceptively heavy

- Fast attacks that can break through ike.

- can pressure ike with eggs

- Yoshi has a lot of variety for approaching (nair, bair, eggroll, ftilt, grabs)

- edge guards ike very effectively (ike is already easy to edgeguard, and yoshi has a fantastic air game! just watch out for aether because it may take you down too ><.)

- Ike's weight makes it easy for yoshi to combo, and his slow attacks make it harder for him to escape.

- Yoshi's tail has an incredible range and is fast, (think tilts/ dsmash/ Bair) so a well spaced yoshi will be able to punish ike without being close enough to be punished (assuming yoshi is able to pull off the attack first, which shouldn't be a problem considering ikes speed)

- Yoshi's grabs once again allow yoshi to be safe, and can set up for combos because of ikes weight.

Cons:
- it's ike....hes a BEAST. despite yoshi being heavy ike still kills faster than other characters. yoshi being heavy is only a minor plus.

- A well spaced ike can typically out space a good yoshi because of superior range.

- Yoshi's grabs if avoided can be punished.......and when you punish with ike....it's over ;_;

- Counter is a very good move against everyone. i feel it deserves a slot here :D. a smart ike will know when to use it.

- because of ikes weight it's going to be hard for yoshi to seal the deal and knock him off the stage. yoshi will really need to know how to edgeguard to get his kills. Yoshi's u-air is probably his best kill move, but because of ikes weight many players may find it easier to knock him off the sides.

 

[JJ259]

^^Because Marth players found some new spacing tools (shield breaker outranges everything), found new uses for his side B (move regeneration as well as damage, Roll punishment, ect.) found that his f-tilt is safe on block, started going farther off the stage for edgeguarding, found more on stage uses for up B, and a lot of other cool stuff. And as Marth players get better at spacing (since it is quite a wierd adjustment for them), they start doing better in matchups. They get hit less, they do more damage, they kill sooner, and they become much less punishable. Sure, the Lucario players are getting better too, but they have to work harder because now Marths aren't messing up their spacing as much and have found more approach (and more importantly) punishment methods. Side B is great for hitting through rolls, and shieldbreaker makes opponents...more likely to roll or spotdodge instead of shield.


I know from my arguement it sounded like I thought Marth is some super Lucario counter, but all that stuff I mentioned is why I think Marth has a reasonable advantage in the matchup, like 6-4.

I hate to beat a dead horse but all the things you brought up (of course not the specific moves) are things that lucario mains have been discovering.

Spacing:
Ftilt (also safe on block because of it's deceptive disjointed hit box that also hits twice), side B (which trips a lot when hit with the tip), AAA combo (also sets up for a lot of other moves if you follow the 2nd hit with something else)

Roll punishment:
utilt (extremely fast, hits almost instantly from behind and has a huge range), dmash

Edge guarding:
New combos, going further off stage forcing many characters to be unable to recover, gimping/easy stage spikes/ko potential all with dair.

I mean honestly, Marth and Lucario have a lot of very similar aspects. Both have massive disjointed hitboxes, require good spacing, tipping and both have good aerial games as well as ground games. I honestly don't see how either one of them has an advantage over the other and it all comes down to the style that each one plays.

 

[Lord Aether]

Well, I asked earlier but also have more to follow up so...

Why is Ike at a disadvantage against Ganondorf?
For that matter, why is he at a disadvantage against Mario?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Spacing:
Ftilt (also safe on block because of it's deceptive disjointed hit box that also hits twice), side B (which trips a lot when hit with the tip), AAA combo (also sets up for a lot of other moves if you follow the 2nd hit with something else)

AAA combo get's up B'd in the middle of it. Not safe on block. Safe on block means that the opponent litterally can't do anything about it even if they know exactly what you're doing. Like Fox's nair to shine in melee. Like Marth's d-tilt (since he can move away before you can do any attacks, and he's out of your grab range so he can't be shield grabbed) and F-tilt (he's out of your range except for your f-smash and side B, both of which are too slow. By the time you move foward to get back in range he can move again). That's what I mean by safe on block. I don't mean deceptive, I mean it is litterally unpunishable because they can't reach you in time to do anything.

Roll punishment:
utilt (extremely fast, hits almost instantly from behind and has a huge range), dmash

I brought up roll punishment because you had used Lucario's roll as one of his positive aspects. The fact that Marths have found effective ways to punish this hurts Lucario's game. Marth's roll sucks and should never be used, and never was used to argue in Marth's favor. The fact that you can punish something Marths should never be using in the first place is irrelevent.

Edge guarding:
New combos, going further off stage forcing many characters to be unable to recover, gimping/easy stage spikes/ko potential all with dair.

Stop saying "many characters." When arguing for a specific matchup, you should completely disregard all characters except the two involved in the matchup. Going further off the stage to edgeguard Marth is not important, as when you finally reach him he still outranges you and will be much better able to defend himself than almost all of the characters you are used to edgeguarding. His aerials come out just as fast as yours, are more powerful than yours, and have more range than yours. A good Marth is a ***** to edgeguard.

I mean honestly, Marth and Lucario have a lot of very similar aspects. Both have massive disjointed hitboxes, require good spacing, tipping and both have good aerial games as well as ground games. I honestly don't see how either one of them has an advantage over the other and it all comes down to the style that each one plays.

Because Marth is better in those aspects than Lucario. Marth has a better approach game than Lucario, a better range than Lucario, a better ground game, a tied aerial game and a harder to edgeguard (though shorter) recovery. If Marth plays aggressive when on the stage, and defensive when recovering, he can pretty much shut Lucario's game down, thanks to that small range advantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL!!!

Sonic Wave is unleashing it.

lmao.

Also Marth's roll is good IMO. Fast and covers good distance. Not amazing, but it's not Samus' roll or CF's roll thats for sure.

Also I think Marth's main advantage in the match-up is speed not neccessarily his range which is virtually equal to Lucario's.

 

[Illussionary]

Did anything really change on the chart?

 

[JJ259]

You want to know what I mean when I say edge guarding against some characters? I mean that lucario can back throw a marth off the edge, follow with 2 fairs and even if the marth is able to get out at this point they will be unable to recover because, even if they can return to hte edge, lucario will be able to return fast enough to edge hog.

In addition, if a lucario follows marth off the edge, even 1 fair will set up a placement for a dair finisher off the side of the screen in some situations. Add another fair to that and it almost perfectly sets up the dair.

And by safe on block I mean that the distance that it can hit by and the fact that it double hits/has short ending lag means that the marthcan't shield grab and unless the lucario attacks thin air, there won't be time for the marth to retaliate if spaced properly.

 

[Crizthakidd]

am i reading this right?


snakes at a disadvantage over every char. except ROb?

*leaves*

 

[S2]

Chart is looking better and better everytime you update it TC.

Of course, this who knows what'll change as people get better. Glad to see Lucas is now listed as a bad matchup for Zelda. Dunno what Lucas players feel about it, but the whole Zelda board basically agrees that he's a bad matchup for her.