Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[hizzlum]

You just let them break out and you can grab them again. Actually, a lot of characters can do this, so Ness will get hard countered by a lot of characters. Lucas too (though fewer characters can do it to him and most aren't infinites but just chaingrabs).

ok so it isnt a chain throw, its an infinte throw, just needed to know. If ness is so easy to infinte throw, shouldn't he be dropping to low/bottom tier on the tier lists?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well yeah, assuming it doesn't get banned I'd imagine that Ness and Lucas would drop quite a bit.

And you actually have to dash grab with some characters (including Sonic) so for some of them it's not an infinite and more like a chaingrab.

 

[hizzlum]

Well yeah, assuming it doesn't get banned I'd imagine that Ness and Lucas would drop quite a bit.
.

It probably won't get banned beacuse the infinte combo in melee with fox wasn't (at least that's what i think) and chain thorws were banned in melee, so im guessing that the earthbound series will drop down on the tier list like enron in the stock market

 

[Earthbound360]

The chart should disregard those grabs. We're gonna get those banned if it kills us.

It wouldnt be fair for Ness and Lucas to do so bad on people they once did so well against in one day.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It probably won't get banned beacuse the infinte combo in melee with fox wasn't (at least that's what i think) and chain thorws were banned in melee, so im guessing that the earthbound series will drop down on the tier list like enron in the stock market

CHaingrabs weren't banned.
Wobbling was banned.

 

[Shark Week]

i hope it kills you.

ness/lucas players are without exception some of the most annoying players i've ever had to deal with.

DASHATTACKDASHATTACKFAIRDASHATTACKPKTHUNDERDASHATTACKDASHATTACK

 

[ashes]

I play ZSS and I find that I always beat Peach easily.
I think Zelda and ZSS are fairly equal, because of shieks similar speed and agility.
and then in general ZSS beats kirby.
Oh and also, ZSS beats Rob hands down.
Thats what I think any way, but dunno fi others agree, but i like the project and thought i could contribute.

 

[ashes]

oh and about my last post...
I got my info from playing against level 9 CPU... if that makes a difference.

 

[Kiwikomix]

CPU lv. 9 does make a difference, sorry.
ZSS doesn't beat ROB. ROB goes crazy with projectiles and even his laggy sideB can reflect Zamus' slow projectile. The few attacks she has that outrange the robot aren't really that powerful, and most of ROB's attacks let him stay far enough away to avoid her d-smash stungun. Plus, Zamus may as well be dead once she's off the side, because her extra jump and tether recovery won't save her from ROB's WOP.

 

[DanGR]

to IvanEva- if you agree with this load of crap and/or put a question mark next to this matchup confirming that it's disputed after I get done with it then I will completely lose all respect I had in you for taking the time to set up this wonderful chart. If you ignore it, good job. keep it up.

I've played decent olimars with my sonic before. It's nothing like you say. Sure olimar's got the range and power, but his attacks aren't fast enough to stop sonic from getting in and racking up damage.

now that that's out of the way, here's why it should be even.

in olimar's favour:
-more power
-higher priority
-larger range
-smaller size
-better defensive game

In sonic's favour:
-speed
-recovery
-better pressure game


(the weight of the charcter's about equal so that doesn't go into consideration.)

okay so by default, assuming no counter are in place, olimar's got the upper hand; however olimar can't throw pikmin at sonic. eliminating his major source of passive damage. Simply every move in sonic's repetoir will destroy all pimin attached to him, or any that missed him. Also, if olimar mises with a smash, sonic is fast enough to destroy the pikmin that gets left behind as part of the attack.
In addition to sonic making olimar wary of using a good chunk of his attacks lest he lose pikmin, a good sonic can actually put enough pressure on olimar to stop him from picking new ones. sonic is so fast he can keep olimar from bening on the ground long enough to pull extra pikmin if he wants. Obviously this is useful if sonic get's a lucky mass destruction of pikmin. An olimar with 0-2 pikmin is a sad sight and, so long as sonic can keep up the pressure, olimar will probably die before he can pick up new pikmin.
Finally, sonic can really easily gimp or edgeguard olimar's recovery attempts... take your pick.

Olimar still has the benifit of being all around better than sonic which is the only thing stopping sonic from being favoured in this matchup.

oh my gosh... you can't be even remotely serious can you??? sorry dude, but it doesn't matter if sonic is fast. olimar's defensive game alone beats sonic.

not only did you mention all of the advantages olimar has against sonic, you said a lot more that clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge about good sonic v good olimar.

1.)

Sure olimar's got the range and power, but his attacks aren't fast enough to stop sonic from getting in and racking up damage.

olimar's grab is the fastest long-range grab in the game. Plus, he can shieldgrab ANY attack that hits olimar(notables-snake's ftilt, zelda's fair, GaW's turtle, sonic's bair anyone?)

-Olimar's moves, notably the FAST tilts, outprioritize most of sonic's moves.(you said it yourself)

-every one of olimar's smash attacks are faster than all of sonic's. There's very little pre-lag.

2.)

advantage...better pressure game

If you've ever played a good olimar, you'd know that olimar is the most defensive character in brawl. he doesn't HAVE to approach.(unless faced by falco or fox) Good olimar players generally throw pikmen until the enemy approaches. Even if an olimar player WERE to approach sonic, he'd still be better at it than sonic would against olimar, with sonic's atrocious approach game that every smasher knows he has.(due to his low priority) Sonic is more of a combo player that feeds off mistakes and rushed thinking than an approach character.

3.)

however olimar can't throw pikmin at sonic. eliminating his major source of passive damage.

Olimar can throw pikmen at any character w/out a range game. Even sonic. This is not olimar's main source of damage. It is though, as you trickily said, olimar's ONLY PASSIVE damage giving move.(along with the only other passive damaging move in the game being DDD's waddle doo) And pikmen are not used for damage unless you, the opponent, let it be. It's merely used as a distraction, so we can follow up and screw you over.

4.)

Simply every move in sonic's repetoir will destroy all pimin attached to him, or any that missed him.

So... how does that give sonic an advantage v olimar over any other character v olimar? It doesn't. every character can kill pikmen. sonic's no different.

5.)

Also, if olimar mises with a smash, sonic is fast enough to destroy the pikmin that gets left behind as part of the attack.

same with everyone else, dude. It's no different. Any missed smash attack by anyone can be punished by anyone with any move. Care to try and prove me wrong?

6.)

sonic is so fast he can keep olimar from bening on the ground long enough to pull extra pikmin if he wants. Obviously this is useful if sonic get's a lucky mass destruction of pikmin. An olimar with 0-2 pikmin is a sad sight and, so long as sonic can keep up the pressure, olimar will probably die before he can pick up new pikmin.

in order to pull out 6 pikmen, olimar has to be on the ground for a total of less than two seconds. A hit tilt on sonic at 60% will give you the time it takes to pull out 6 pikmen. It's no big deal.

7.)

Finally, sonic can really easily gimp or edgeguard olimar's recovery attempts... take your pick.

ok, you got me there. olimar has a bad recovery. *clap* *clap*

I think I'd go with olimar over sonic any day.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

some of what you said is not true... a lot of moves from a lot of characters will knock off a lot of pikmen, but since most of sonic's moves involve his entire body, all of these moves will knock off and normally kill all pikmin attached, meaning he can easily atack olimar at the same time as he kills olimar's pikmin.

While it's true that anyone can punish olimar's mistakes like sonic can, sonic is just so much better at it than anyone else. the real question is, does a good olimar keep his pikmin alive, or does a good sonic kill them all... what does one define as equally skilled? Who knows?

Olimar needs to be on the ground to pull pikmin, when olimar is out of pikmin, he has no way of keeping himself on the ground... his tilts are rubish and he can't even grab. Also, if he's down a few pikmin, his bad recovery becomes even worse, and playing against sonic, he WILL have lost some of his pikmin.

You just let them break out and you can grab them again. Actually, a lot of characters can do this, so Ness will get hard countered by a lot of characters. Lucas too (though fewer characters can do it to him and most aren't infinites but just chaingrabs).

Marth has got 8-2 on Ganondorf. I'm sure you'll find some if you just look through some character matchup threads in the character specific forums. Particularly the characters considered...good.

I dunno what the stat is, but the ammount of dominance that sheik has over ike leads me to believe that it's a hard counter.

 

[matthewmilad]

If someone wants to explain how Snake is good against Kirby when Kirby can stall on one side of the stage and gimp Snake easily when he gets close. With how the game works now, you don't get jumps back after being grabbed, and this includes Kirby's neutral B. Gimps the crap out of Snake.

 

[hizzlum]

If someone wants to explain how Snake is good against Kirby when Kirby can stall on one side of the stage and gimp Snake easily when he gets close. With how the game works now, you don't get jumps back after being grabbed, and this includes Kirby's neutral B. Gimps the crap out of Snake.

Snake's projectile keep his opponent of the defensive, the explosion everywhere with the mines and grenades make it diffcult to appaorch a good snake nd don't forget about snake close combat, he has great knockback on his moves and really god aerials that creates spacing so that he once again can put up mines and start expolsions, i do see why the swallow would work well on snake, but a good snake cannot be pressured beacuse of his recovery which gives distance, but very punshable. The projectiles that snake has give him advantage over people who can camp, such as kirby and marth

 

[JJ259]

I kind of think that kirby is even with snake. Kirby's air game is definitely better than snake's because kirby can juggle so well. When fighting against kirby, the snake player is forced to recover off the top of the screen to avoid an easy bair that goes through snake's upB. Attacking from above is viable because kirby's dair goes through snake's upsmash. Snake has nice knockback on his A moves but at the same time kirby can combo him well and rack up a lot of damage in a relatively short amount of time...Hell, he can do a
fthrow > uair > fthrow > uair > fsmash for 51% at the start of every stock.

 

[soul ark]

this is a great reference thanks for putting it up

i wish fox was a little higher up there because he is a great character

 

[IvanEva]

Lmfao you cant be serious about marth + MK, i mean thats like saying their god tier, while their not.

High/Top tier. Not God tier. Which match-ups do you disagree with?

For Lucas it's certain that Marth, DK, and Fox get the glaring advantage against him, I'm sure there will be others once he gets all the characters tested against him.

Should I never get around to checking it out, please do post a Lucas one like you've just done for Ness. I personally have yet to experience these 'broken' chain grabs/infinites but from what I'm reading, they're pretty major.

I guess this'll encourage the PK Pixies to be all the more mobile and evasive.

DK>MK im very serious about tha, as long as the DK knows what hes doing

my 2 cents

I'll GIVE you two cents if you can convince me of this match-up. Remember that match-ups go under the assumption that BOTH players know what they're doing.

This would be really cool if this image was a flash object or something of that sort, and each box you could click to see educated reasons as to why which character has an advantage over another (or there is no clear advantage). Maybe one day all that information will be compiled..

Sounds great. I guess that'd be the next step for this then. I'll think about it as I've been meaning to practice my Flash for a while now. I'll probably try to do it after the chart has been stabilized a bit more.

The chart should disregard those grabs. We're gonna get those banned if it kills us.

It wouldnt be fair for Ness and Lucas to do so bad on people they once did so well against in one day.

Until most organizers ban them, they must be considered. As for fairness, Ness already ruled over Smash 64 and Lucas's game is great (very touching) so they've both gotten their dues already.

1. to IvanEva- if you agree with this load of crap and/or put a question mark next to this matchup confirming that it's disputed after I get done with it then I will completely lose all respect I had in you for taking the time to set up this wonderful chart. If you ignore it, good job. keep it up.

2, Any missed smash attack by anyone can be punished by anyone with any move. Care to try and prove me wrong?

I think I'd go with olimar over sonic any day.

1. How quickly respect can be gained and then lost, eh? I don't ignore any arguments (err, unless I accidentally skip over it) though. He posted why he believed that that's how that match-up goes and you've (in my eyes very successfully) posted a rebuttal. Just, for the sake of professionalism and all that (even though I may never follow that...), try not to be so rude about it. Think of it more like you're 'helping' the person you disagree with. If you both knew the same things you'd both think the same way, no?

2. I will most definitely prove you wrong! Try punishing Olimar's up-smash with Snake's box! Try it! Can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

1. How quickly respect can be gained and then lost, eh? I don't ignore any arguments (err, unless I accidentally skip over it) though. He posted why he believed that that's how that match-up goes and you've (in my eyes very successfully) posted a rebuttal. Just, for the sake of professionalism and all that (even though I may never follow that...), try not to be so rude about it. Think of it more like you're 'helping' the person you disagree with. If you both knew the same things you'd both think the same way, no?

2. I will most definitely prove you wrong! Try punishing Olimar's up-smash with Snake's box! Try it! Can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.

I'll accept it if I have to, I just know that most good sonics seem to be decent against olimars... the problem is that most people who play sonic aren't good.

what were your thoughts on my comments about Zelda Vs. Marth or Link vs. Toon Link BTW?

Just as refresher, I sugested that Marth > Zelda, though it is only a soft counter by the talk of other zelda mains, they still give marth and advantage... the extra range, speed and weight and whatnot.

As for link and toon link... I dunno what the rest of the smash communtity has been experiencing, but it seems to me that Link beets TL up close and beats TL @ camping... TL only seems to have the advntage in the air and off the edge. Honestly, when I play link Vs. toon links around, I win pretty handly, when they try to camp, I just camp better (link has more range, speed and/or power on all of the projectiles) and if they try to rush, then I just cut them down because I have longer range than them... link kinda hates it when he's off the edge, but otherwise, he seems to control the matchup pretty well


oh I see you changes zelda... good thanks ^_^
I need some input for others for the link/TL thing though... I'm not really sure what other are thinking here because no one sems to play link <_<

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

oh and about my last post...
I got my info from playing against level 9 CPU... if that makes a difference.

The chart is comparing human players. My Peach will give you trouble if that's all you're going by....

 

[DanGR]

1. How quickly respect can be gained and then lost, eh? I don't ignore any arguments (err, unless I accidentally skip over it) though. He posted why he believed that that's how that match-up goes and you've (in my eyes very successfully) posted a rebuttal. Just, for the sake of professionalism and all that (even though I may never follow that...), try not to be so rude about it. Think of it more like you're 'helping' the person you disagree with. If you both knew the same things you'd both think the same way, no?

2. I will most definitely prove you wrong! Try punishing Olimar's up-smash with Snake's box! Try it! Can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.

sorry guys. i was just a little frustrated that STH posted that sonic beats olimar. noob olimars maybe, but it just doesn't work out. I'll try and be a little more professional about it.

his box hurts people? i didn't know that.

EDIT: have you thought about putting zelda/sheik into one person? of course, aside from the seperate zelda and sheik. If you face a zelda/sheik user, they can switch anytime they want to accommodate a specific matchup. when either zelda/sheik dies, they aren't change automatically into the other as the pokemon trainer's pokemon do. just a thought.

 

[Shibby]

Until most organizers ban them, they must be considered. As for fairness, Ness already ruled over Smash 64 and Lucas's game is great (very touching) so they've both gotten their dues already.

Ivan you might as well put Ness and Lucas at a disadvantage to every character for the time being ...

/sigh

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Not every character can do it, and most characters do not have an infinite, but rather a chaingrab, on Ness and Lucas. Some characters can't even do anything out of it, or get anything other than a weak attack (Kirby, Jigglypuff, Mario, ect.)

@DanGR-changing between Zelda and Shiek would not affect a matchup chart. You'd simply reference Zelda or Shiek's matchup chart depending on what character they are at the time. If your opponent has a disadvantage against you as Zelda, but switches to Shiek, it does not mean that Zelda suddenly has an advantage in the matchup. Zelda is still at a disadvantage, only now you're not Zelda so it doesn't really matter. That could affect their position on the tier list, but not the individual matchup chart. Notice how pokemon trainer is also considered three characters for matchup purposes, and characters that have an advantage against multiple pokemon woul have an easier time against pokemon trainer as a whole. Matchups are done on an individual moveset basis, analyzing how the movesets of two characters interact.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sorry guys. i was just a little frustrated that STH posted that sonic beats olimar. noob olimars maybe, but it just doesn't work out. I'll try and be a little more professional about it.

his box hurts people? i didn't know that.

EDIT: have you thought about putting zelda/sheik into one person? of course, aside from the seperate zelda and sheik. If you face a zelda/sheik user, they can switch anytime they want to accommodate a specific matchup. when either zelda/sheik dies, they aren't change automatically into the other as the pokemon trainer's pokemon do. just a thought.

1) I never said Sonic beat olimar... just that they were even. Any way you slice it, saying they are evn isn't saying sonic is the better of the two. And, BTW, it is close, even if you still give olimar an advantage, it's not a massive huge advantage like the picture you are falsly painting.

2) Putting zelda/sheik separate is a better idea than making them the same. it let's zelda users know when they should be sheik and when they should be zelda.

 

[DanGR]

I really don't feel like arguing over this matchup any further. I guess when you said "take your pick" it seemed as if you were saying you'd pick sonic over olimar. Sorry for the misconception.
IvanEva, for your sake, feel free to do w/e you want with the chart. You'll still be awesome for taking the time to set it up.

i'm not saying the zelda/sheik seperate matchups in the chart are bad, as i mentioned earlier, but rather that there should be another "character" matchup reference to both zelda and sheik as one person for convenience. If I were a zelda/sheik user v lets say... pikachu for instance, we all know pikachu dominates sheik, but has much more trouble against zelda. The zelda/sheik "character" might(arguably) be listed as an advantage for Zelda/Sheik. Just saying...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Or you could simply look at the Zelda matchup instead of the Shiek matchup and play Zelda against Pikachu. Notice how this did not suddenly become a good matchup for Shiek, but rather, you are not playing Shiek anymore. You do not need to count them as one character with respect to a matchup chart, as matchup charts only tell you what specific characters have advantages over what other specific characters.

 

[DanGR]

it's funny how, with the information IvanEva has currently collected from these discussions, If you combine both zelda and sheik into one character, there is suddenly only one matchup you have to worry about as a zelda/sheik main. GaW. tell me that's not cleaner.

 

[hizzlum]

The match-up bewteen marth and ZSS is definetly in marth's favor. I played pro ZSS 's and speed hug edgehogs win matches really easy. Marth's aerials cancel ZSS long range attacks with his high priority and then he can combo her really easy and kill her quick because she is light. Also, her lack of KO power means she has to get marth around 175-200% to get a good DI kill while marth can rack up her damage easy while she tries to approach beacuse she cant use her aerials due to her high short hop. Also why is the lucario vs marth match up neutral? Lucario is an easy edgeguard with his recovery and for the best edgeguarder in the game being marth, i think lucario would have a tough time when off the stage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

it's funny how, with the information IvanEva has currently collected from these discussions, If you combine both zelda and sheik into one character, there is suddenly only one matchup you have to worry about as a zelda/sheik main. GaW. tell me that's not cleaner.

Provided that you are equally skilled with both characters (which quite frankly is hard to do with how different they are.)

And it isn't about being clean. It's about being accurate. Shiek is disadvantaged against Toon Link, while Zelda has an advantage.

What you have to also realize is that the players have to be able to tell which of the characters has the advantage in the situation. If it were just put up as Zelda/Shiek having an advantage on Toon Link, then we wouldn't be able to tell whether to go as Zelda or go as Shiek. We can only control one of them at a time you know, and we have to know which on is better in the matchup.

I also think that Marth has an advantage over Lucario. Not super counter kind of advantage, but a slight advantage nonetheless. Marth outranges all of Lucario's aerials, and Marth's ground attacks either outrange or out speed Lucario's attacks in all instances. Lucario's got some pretty mean edgeguarding, but at the same time you can just outspace his aerials and hit him away with your own. Meanwhile Lucario is easy to edgeguard and easy to gimp.

Lucario's got his strong points sure, it's just that Marth is a little better at pretty much everthing Lucario does.

 

[Browny]

zamus side b is strong and massive ranged. should be killing marth from centre of FD from around 140%.

and try to edgeguard a good lucario player and see what happens. you just cant touch him. and the only way lucario will die by an edgehog is if someone spikes him, or he gets hit by something like wolfs dsmash which sends them below the stage. lucario can just float back to the stage against any attack that send him even slightly upwards. oh and, aura sphere can stage spike pretty nastily.

once again lucario is a character who is easily gimped in theory, but in practice hes one of the hardest since his aerials beat out just about everyone. on the other hand, marth is far less floaty and will generally be forced to use his up-b to recover many times, which lucario can easily edgehog since there is a small timeframe for when it will work for marth. simply put, the invincibility frames for edgehogging do not last long enough to edgehog lucario when he falls so slow, he can stall for like 30 seconds with his d-air

 

[DanGR]

try to edgeguard a good lucario player and see what happens. you just cant touch him. and the only way lucario will die by an edgehog is if someone spikes him

that's the point...

 

[Dark Sonic]

zamus side b is strong and massive ranged. should be killing marth from centre of FD from around 140%.

and try to edgeguard a good lucario player and see what happens. you just cant touch him. and the only way lucario will die by an edgehog is if someone spikes him, or he gets hit by something like wolfs dsmash which sends them below the stage. lucario can just float back to the stage against any attack that send him even slightly upwards. oh and, aura sphere can stage spike pretty nastily.

once again lucario is a character who is easily gimped in theory, but in practice hes one of the hardest since his aerials beat out just about everyone. on the other hand, marth is far less floaty and will generally be forced to use his up-b to recover many times, which lucario can easily edgehog since there is a small timeframe for when it will work for marth. simply put, the invincibility frames for edgehogging do not last long enough to edgehog lucario when he falls so slow, he can stall for like 30 seconds with his d-air

Umm...Marth's aerials beat out Lucario's. As in Marth is good at edgeguarding Lucario because Lucario can't reach him. It's actually easy to edgeguard Lucario because he can't actually hit me back. And his up B has so much startup lag that it's pretty much asking for a fair or nair to the face.

And if you're trying to edgehog Lucario then you are dumb. You're supposed to drop down and up B his face if he's below you (yes, Marth can do that). You could also fair, side B, nair (timed so only the second hit connects), ect.). And Marth is not easy to edgeguard in anyway. He outranges all of your aerails, is invincible on the start of his up B (which breaks fair chains btw), gets a vertical boost with his side B, and has a very fast long reaching up B.

The fact that you even said "since his aerials beat out just about everyone" proves that you know nothing about Marth, or you would know that Marth is one of the characters that not only outspeeds you, but also outranges you. Get your facts straight before trying to debate.

Also, you say Marth if far less floaty and will have to use his up B, but you're forgetting that Marth can also recover with his neutral B and side B .Not only that, but Marth's up B comes out in 5 frames, and he's invincible frame 1-5, so you won't be hitting him out of that. Combine that with auto sweetspotting and you've got quite the rediculous recovery.

 

[S2]

As a Zelda player, I gotta disagree with the Lucas matchup being neutral.

Lucas is a BAD MATCHUP for Zelda. His moveset negates many of her advantages, since he's got attacks that hit off of his body. Not to mention, his magnet can absorb Din's, which is a move integral to Zelda's game.

Check the Zelda board, Lucas ranks very high amongst matchup related questions and is regarded as one of Zelda's harder matchups.

 

[Tapia]

I feel bad for Capitan Falcon!
The mans got all X's!!


Poor Big dog C-Falc Delux.

 

[Browny]

Marths upb giving him invincibility frames doesnt mean anything. with that new roll-instant edgehog technique theres no need to attack marth when you can keep him at range with aura spheres, and roll off the edge to edgehog it. how is marths recovery better than someone like wolfs? they both gain the same range, and its not like theres any need to attack wolf or marth off the stage when an edgehog will do just fine. marths up b could have the knockback of G&W oil panic it doesnt make a difference when its very easy to time the edgehogs invincibility frames, something which is much harder to do against lucario with his d-air stall.

and aura sphere makes short work of marth using his side b or neutral b to recover. marth is as easy to edgehog as olimar as far as im concerned since his up-b is so **** fast a properly timed edgehog will kill him every time. unlike wolf, DK, anyone with a tether for example since they can afford to wait a short while before recovering, or thier recoveries are slow enough such that edgehoggers invincibility frames run out. ive successfully edgehogged marth far more than i do any other character i play against, so w/e.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marths upb giving him invincibility frames doesnt mean anything. with that new roll-instant edgehog technique theres no need to attack marth when you can keep him at range with aura spheres, and roll off the edge to edgehog it.

Aura spheres don't do anything. Because Marth has a sword. Try again.
Oh, and Marth's up B reaches the edge before you roll on it. In fact, he can reach it in between you going off the stage trying to hug him. Try again. And it's not rolling off the edge. It's running off, fast falling, and holding towards the stage, which is still too slow to edgehog Marth.

how is marths recovery better than someone like wolfs? they both gain the same range, and its not like theres any need to attack wolf or marth off the stage when an edgehog will do just fine.

Marth's recovery is better because he can use neutral B to cover all horizontal distance, side B to get a vertical boost, and his up B is one billion times faster and you'd only be able to edgehog him if you actually ran of the stage before he started his up B.

. marths up b could have the knockback of G&W oil panic it doesnt make a difference when its very easy to time the edgehogs invincibility frames, something which is much harder to do against lucario with his d-air stall.

WTF are you even talking about. Edgehogging sucks in this game. Not only does Marth have a lot more leeway with sweetspotting his up B (as in, he can wait for the invincibility to wear off and then still reach the ledge), but his up B is so fast that you'd actually have to grab the ledge before Marth does his up B, which means that essentially he should never get edgehogged. He can activate his up B really early, or really late, and the window for doing his up B and still sweetspotting is actually longer than the invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge.

And Marth should never edgehog Lucario. But Lucario is rediculously easy to edgeguard. Marth will just jump off the stage and hit you with fairs and nairs, both of which outrange every move in your arsenal, and both of them hit you out of your up B, which also has rediculously slow startup. Lucario is easy to edgeguard because his up B is slow and predictable, while also not being able to defend against Marth's aerials. Marth is hard to edgeguard because his up B is fast, he can outrange all off stage edgeguard attempts, and he can slash through those pathetic aurashperes with even more ease than he did missles in melee. An the autosweetspot just helps him even more, by increasing the range in which he can sweetspot an up B to be even longer than the invincibility you gained.

Dair stall does not stop Marth's aerials. Try again

and aura sphere makes short work of marth using his side b or neutral b to recover.

Side B is a vertical boost. As in, you use it to get higher. So no, an aurasphere will have no effect since it can only travel horizontally.

marth is as easy to edgehog as olimar as far as im concerned since his up-b is so **** fast a properly timed edgehog will kill him every time.

What ******** Marth's are you playying? Marth can litterally wait for your invincibility to end and just up B later, since his up B goes so far. And you can't ledgehop to regain invincibility because Marth can reach the edge in between you jumping and regrabbing the ledge. That speed is exactly what allows Marth to have more flexibility with timing his up B than any other character in the game. If the other characters can wait, Marth can wait even longer, since his up B actually goes farther than everyone you mentioned.

ive successfully edgehogged marth far more than i do any other character i play against, so w/e.

Then you've been playing bad marths that suck balls at recovering. If you try to hug against Marth, Marth can activate his up B and reach the ledge first. If you grab the ledge before he gets in range to sweetspot, he can wait for your invincibility to go away and up B you inbetween ledgehops. If you throw auraspheres, he'll just fair them. If you try to fair edgeguard, he'll just fair you instead since he outranges you. And that's assuming he's even low enough to have to use his up B in the first place, or that you even get him off the stage for that matter. Off the stage Marth ***** Lucario, on the stage Marth has a smaller advantage but it's still an advantage. Marth racks damage faster, kills at lower percents, gimps better, and recovers better. Lucario is at a disadvantage, end of story. If you try to fair combo he'll up B you out of it. If you try to roll behind him he'll side B your face (which quickly regenrerates his other moves) If you roll away from him he'll chase you with a freakin' shield breaker (that's right, it's a good move now). Lucario loses.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness and Lucas are fixed again, minus their Marth mutchup (And PT for Ness, but not Ivy). The chaingrab is avoidaable now, so their matchups arent bad anymore.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well that worked out. And it only took a few days too. That was fast.
But just to clarify, Marth, Squirtle, and Charizard still have an infinite grab on Ness. And Marth has a chaingrab on Lucas (though it is a pretty long chaingrab on most stages.) Also, have you guys tested to see if the characters who could previously chaingrab you can still attack you out of the grab release?

 

[Illussionary]

Sonic's matchups are slightly in accurate, Sonic has no problem owning characters with large hitboxes aka Donkey Kong etc. He also pwns slow characters which you already seem to have undercontrol. Great chart btw.

 

[IvanEva]

Heh, the way you guys are talking about it, it's as if somebody went into every Brawl DVD/CD/Whatever-the-hell-they-are and first broke them and then fixed them. I changed some of the Ness match-ups as per your first post about them. Which of them do you suppose I should change back, if any? Infinite or not, a chaingrab is still a pretty big thing. Take a look at the Ness and Lucas rows. Anything look off?

To Illussionary: Everybody has an easier time hitting the big guys but that's just not enough (usually). Priority, range, etc. also play a part, which is where Sonic falters a bit. I think the Sonic/Donkey Kong match-up has already been discussed somewhere in this thread.

On the Twilight Link vs. Wind Link (much better names than 'Link' - since the best Link, and thus the one deserving the title-less name, is the guy from Ocarina of Time - and 'Toon' Link - how is he any more 'toon'y than people like Marth, Ness/Lucas, or even Mario?) match-up, well, I have no information since I've yet to witness a match between those characters. Does anybody else have any information on it? I'll change it to Twilight Link's advantage next update if nobody objects.

On a completely irrelevant note: Olimar's games > Sonic's (recent) games. I just got Pikmin 2 and, like the first one, I find it fresh and original. And fun, that's the big one. To anybody who has yet to play it, I recommend finding it and buying it. It was Nintendo's only original property in the past 10 years (err, give or take) and yet nobody (myself included) gave it the chance it deserved because it didn't have Mario or Zelda in it. If you haven't already, please go out and play it.

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

Dedede is the third best character so far based on tournament statistics, and yet he is listed into having so many bad matchups.

Zero Suit Samus, on the other hand, has been ranking only average in tournaments so far (Rank ~26th best character), and is listed on the chart as having a lot better match-ups than most characters.

Of course, these tournaments themselves, might be crappy tournaments. And the statistics themselves might be altered by facts like "people don't play ZSS often".

but still... look into it. Definitely, King DeDeDe shouldn't be having THAT many horrible matchups if he's been ranking 3rd.

Tournament Data Source: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

 

[Illussionary]

Dedede is the third best character so far based on tournament statistics, and yet he is listed into having so many bad matchups.

Zero Suit Samus, on the other hand, has been ranking only average in tournaments so far (Rank ~26th best character), and is listed on the chart as having a lot better match-ups than most characters.

Of course, these tournaments themselves, might be crappy tournaments. And the statistics themselves might be altered by facts like "people don't play ZSS often".

but still... look into it. Definitely, King DeDeDe shouldn't be having THAT many horrible matchups if he's been ranking 3rd.

Tournament Data Source: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Just because he's won the 3rd most Tourneys doesn't make him 3rd best character... It just means that more people play with him in tourneys, then say... Bowser or some other "Low tier" character.