Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[ShadowLink84]

this is a ridiculously biased post. seriously.

This was a ridiculously stupid statement. Seriously.
I am automatically biased for presenting an argument in which you disagree?
Hm I guess youmust be incredibly biased as well.
Then again making statements about people over the web is moronic in general.

firs tof all, thunder is unfairly hard to get around.

Oka unless you are an idiot you shouldn;t be hit by thunder very often.
Hitbox is roughly hald the size of Link's sword length during a Dsmash. Not too big and not very broken.
It has priority in the first and ending hit so again no issue.
When you hear Pikachu go PIKA! you should probably make use of the air dodge.

i've only ever met one player who could airdodge through it consistently.

Oh he must be a master since clearly people cannot consistently dodge an attack that is quite obvious.
Him=/= everyone else. I do not know where you get the idea that because you've only seen one person do it that they cannot dodge it.
Can't see how its impossible its quite easy sinze the lightning isn't exactly big.
Hell I would be more worried about Marth's dolphin slash than Pikachu's thunder.

sonic can't take pikachu in the air... at worst it's even, and with sonic's bad priority, there's no way you could win an aerial fight with pikachu. [/quote
Bair has good range.
Nair has good priority when initiated crap at the end.
Dair has decent priority.
Uair has some priority but the range is whats important.
Fair is crap priority.

Sonic's ground game is practically on a different console compared to pikachu's ground game. you can't do ANYTHING to pikachu if all the pikachu player does is dsmash spam when you're nearby.

I am disregarding anything else afterwards as soon as you said this. Seriously you are an idiot if you fall for this repeatedly.
Maybe in a 4 way FFA or even a tag team match. But if its a 1v1 and you consistently fall for it you're an idiot and you deserve to lose and be laughed at.

trust me, i do it all the time. pikachu doesn't have enough lag for you to take advantage of much of anything.

Youmust be playing scrubs. Plain and simple. IF all you have to do is Dsmash then why isn't Pikachu top tier?

second of all, you tell us that sonic has this great approach against all of these characters... but what is it? i'm especially interested in how you think sonic "murders pit's ranged game." you know pit is one of the best campers in what has been recognized as a very defensively oriented game?

See and this is why I dislike arguing with you. Obviously you've never used Sonic or any other character to the point that you understand their game.
Sonic can go under and through Pit's arrows.
he can spin shot and abuse Pit if he fires an arrow.
At close combat Sonic is not too good but in general Sonic's game is about pressure and chasing not close combat.
Sonic has an excellent grab range and he can cancel his Dash instantly so he isn't too vulnerable when trying to get close.

Did you know Sonic is actually one of the better characters at approaching in a defense oriented game?
No I guess not.

i'm also wondering how you think sonic has this great approach against ivysaur... ivysaur essentially controls the air at all times, and has a projectile, something sonic doesn't have.

Neither does Marth and MK but WOMG high tier for them.
Bad arguments are bad.
Again if you do not know ANYTHING about Sonic's approach game go to the forums please.
Sonic's aerial game is not the best but decent and is definitely better than Ivysaur's.
Are you trying to insinuate that Ivysaur is an aerial character when clearly he is not?

in short, you tell us that sonic can approach, combo in the air, combo on the ground, and gimp... but you don't say how. the other people are holding their controllers too you know.

Sonic can himp ANYONE with a brain can tell.
He can combo and pressure, his speed and spindashes and overlal strategy make him good at this. If you noticed I mentioned priority which nis his worst asset. Killing isn't too much of a big deal since Pit and MK suffer from it too but have priority to make up for it.
Asa result SOnic has to be incredibly unpredictable and becaue of his speed and physics abusing ability he is very good at approaching.
If oyu cannot see that sonic is good at approaching and gimping then cease arguing.
It would be like asking "How can ike kill?"

A sonic user isn't an idiot that spams their spindashes you know.

 

[DanGR]

He is a complete pain in the *** if you ever had to fight against a good one, like your sig suggests.

woa, man, i've played "good" snakes, but they have MANY disadvantages against olimar. please present your arguments before you flame me for suggesting a change in the matchup chart.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

woa, man, i've played "good" snakes, but they have MANY disadvantages against olimar. please present your arguments before you flame me for suggesting a change in the matchup chart.

honestly, I play neither snake nor olimar, but I think snake has the advantage in this matchup. Olimar's got some range on snake, but that's about it.

 

[DanGR]

that's about it, range, that's half the game.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that's about it, range, that's half the game.

even so, the range is only for some attacks, and rage isn't half the game, otherwise sword charcters would always be the top. I mean, it's always nice, but it's not like smake has poor range, what about the factt hat olimar can be so easily edgeguarded? I mean, getting back is at least half the game then.

 

[ChokE]

as for sonic approaching pit, sonic has several options. if the pits is spamming arrows, depending on where said pit is, sonic can spin charge underneath the arrows and get in his face immediately, followed with a jump and any air move. course thats only one move.

I think that is the only way to approach pit with a sonic. What else is there to do with a sonic, dash and take arrows in the face or short hop and take arrows in the face (no offense). What you described do work very well on a camping pit, but still, sonic have a hard time killing due to his slow killing moves (not his bair).

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

shadowlink84: that last post was so stupid that i really don't feel like arguing everything point by point at 2 in the morning, so instead i'm just going to challenge you. pm me sometime saturday if you're willing to give it a shot.

 

[AzN_Lep]

sooo according to this list G&W is top tier? He has the most advantageous matches and the least weak match-ups. G&W seems good but not that good. I dunno, just might wanna re-evaluate some of the G&W match-ups

 

[hizzlum]

I agree with Sonic The Hedgedawg, if range were half the game ike and link would be high or top tier characters, and there not. , combos, high pressure play, aerials, advanced techiniques, are the most important aspects of competitive smash and range is just a little bonus for some characters to get easy hits in.

 

[Browny]

meh some more ideas

Sonic isnt advantaged against Zelda. Her ground game is far too strong, however sonics aerials are better since sweetspotting him with her attacks is near impossible and sonic b-air has more range than zeldas, not to mention she is easy to edgeguard. maybe a neutral.

Same with lucario, only take zeldas ground game and put it in the air. Lucario just has too much range on everything. i main sonic and lucario pretty much exclusively and i see no reason as to why sonic would even be neutral vs him. disadvantage.

with squirtle, i see no reason why this is a disadvantage to sonic. i havent played against enough squirtle users to give any definitive reasons, but ive never had any trouble dealing with it, unlike zelda.

am im still disputing him begin disadvantged to IC since its so easy to u-air juggle nana with 0-death combos and theres absolutely nothing nana or popo can do about it.

As for Lucario, i dont see how he is neutral to diddy. without any decent off-the-top KO moves diddy is at a serious disadvantage, not to mention completely outranged everywhere.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

woa, man, i've played "good" snakes, but they have MANY disadvantages against olimar. please present your arguments before you flame me for suggesting a change in the matchup chart.

I'm not flaming you at all. I just have more trouble with snake than any of the characters who are supposed to beat him (wolf, mk, etc). Could just be the people I've played against.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Lol @ Cpt. Falcon's match-ups.

Didn't realize it was that bad, and that his only advantage is over Squirtle, heh heh.

 

[Sakki]

I've only recently started to pick up Snake and it's the same for my brother with Olimar, so maybe all that i have to say only applies to novices. But basically from what i can tell...

An intelligent Snake will win out against an Olimar.

Reason being
1. A smart Snake will know Olimars range and stay out of it until an opportunity presents itself
2. Snake's camping game is far superior to Olimar's
3. Snake's primary attacks send Olimar flying
3.a Easy vertical kills from C4, Claymore, UpTilt, Dtilt Uair
3.b Easy Horizontal kills from Ftilt, Bair, Jab combo, F&B throws and if not killed, easily gimped through edgehogging. I am aware that that can be avoided through throwing purple pikmin, but i doubt many can pull that off with ease.
4. Snake is heavy enough to take Olimar's overpowered hits well with proper DI
5. Snake's mindgame potential > Olimar's and pretty much every other character in the game
6. Against a campy Olimar Snake's Dash attack plows through and kills thrown pikmin I believe (could be mistaken here)
7. Boost-smash/Dash attack = quick attack/retreat for spacing

Olimar's advantages over Snake:
1. better range for close combat
2. better aerial game overall
3. Can rack up damage very quickly if given the opportunity

And that's all that i can think off the top of my head

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic at a disadvantage against Samus?
that's stupid.
Sonic at a disadvantage against pit?
Sonic completely murder's Pit's ranged game of arrow usage and his Uair and Bair can actually beat out some of Pit's aerials.
granted Sonic can't gimp but he can pressure Pit to the point he can land kills via Uair or Fairing.

i believe Pikachu to be more neutral since Sonic can take pikachu on in the air and on the ground Sonic's speed can take apart Pikachu's ranged game. thunder is very slow in movement and a poor edgeguard due to the air dodging system.

Sonic is neutral with Lucas he can very easily approach Lucas and gimp him at low percents. not to mention his aerial game does well against Lucas despite the lack of priority.

Wario is actually neutral there really isn't much to cause an issue if he faces Wario.

Why would Sonic be at a disadvantage against DK? That's one of Sonic's best matchups.

ike and ivysaur being disputd?
Sonic has a good advantage over Ike and Ivysaur since he can get up close very quickly and abuse their poor recovery ability. His speed makes it difficult for Ivysaur to keep up and even if Ivysaur tries to play defensively Sonic can very easily approach him.
At the very least they should be neutral matches for him.

Lucario is a bad matchup for Sonic no argument there.

This whole list seems to be of your own experience, that don't really reflect the thoughts of everyone else.
I don't know about the Samus one.
The Pit argument I actually agree with, he can't spam projectiles if you're too in his face for him to do so.
Pikachu's difficult for Sonic, I'd say a disadvantage.
Lucas is probably more neutral for Sonic, mostly for the reasons you just gave.
Those Wario and DK 'arguments' are terrible. Ask anyone, Wario ***** Sonic in every way possible, and DK's priority and general strength beats Sonic horribly.
And Lucario's far too easy to edgeguard...but I don't that counts for much.

And Zelda's ground game murders Sonic, I don't think it's advantage there at all.

Hooray for the most non-biased post from any Sonic player ever!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

meh some more ideas

Sonic isnt advantaged against Zelda. Her ground game is far too strong, however sonics aerials are better since sweetspotting him with her attacks is near impossible and sonic b-air has more range than zeldas, not to mention she is easy to edgeguard. maybe a neutral.

Same with lucario, only take zeldas ground game and put it in the air. Lucario just has too much range on everything. i main sonic and lucario pretty much exclusively and i see no reason as to why sonic would even be neutral vs him. disadvantage.

with squirtle, i see no reason why this is a disadvantage to sonic. i havent played against enough squirtle users to give any definitive reasons, but ive never had any trouble dealing with it, unlike zelda.

am im still disputing him begin disadvantged to IC since its so easy to u-air juggle nana with 0-death combos and theres absolutely nothing nana or popo can do about it.

As for Lucario, i dont see how he is neutral to diddy. without any decent off-the-top KO moves diddy is at a serious disadvantage, not to mention completely outranged everywhere.

zelda's just got so much power... and 10x more priority... so sorry for sonic in that matchup.

Lucario lack's zelda's power, but makes up for it with longer range and higher speed. Lucario's probably just as tough as Zelda, bot not much tougher.

Squirtles air game is better than sonic's and that's what sonic relies on. I don't see anything from squirtle which exclusively counters sonic, but he IS better, so he'll probably fair better in the matchup.

Don't know about IC's.

Sonic vs. diddy BTW... spring dropping his UB recovery is pretty much an instant diddy kill... but I'm not sure that even that's enough to overcome the rest of sonic's problems with this matchup.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ivan, I love this list as I'm using it to formulate my own Tier lists (Which on Gamefaqs is considered by many to be very good) bt could you at least fill in those empty spots on the chart ASAP?

 

[ShadowLink84]

This whole list seems to be of your own experience, that don't really reflect the thoughts of everyone else.

Oh so I take noone else uses their own experience?

I don't know about the Samus one.

Samus has a major problem with sonic mainly because is very hard for her to keep up with him. There is also the fact that her missiles are entirely negated by sonic's spindashes just as he negates Pit's arrows.
Also due to her light weight she is much easier to KO for Sonic, something he generally has issue.
His pressure game just overwhelms her and once she is off the stage she can be killed easily if she isn't careful.
Granted she can use her grapple to approach and spce but sonic's spinshotting and overall speed makes it difficult for her to maintain.

Pikachu's difficult for Sonic, I'd say a disadvantage.

*shrug* At best he is neutral for Sonic but I don't see as to how people keep harping about thunder, I've never had any trouble dodging it as Ike or Sonic.

Those Wario and DK 'arguments' are terrible. Ask anyone, Wario ***** Sonic in every way possible, and DK's priority and general strength beats Sonic horribly.

How is DK's strengths and priority an advantage?
Many of DK's attacks are slow and very easy to avoid.
The fact that DK is big makes it much easier for Sonic to combo DK and if DK goes off the stage he is pretty much boned, something that isn't too hard.
Granted DK does have some quick moves but they aren't too much of an issue.
Since Sonic can space against DK he can control the match and force DK into making mistakes.
Sonic isn't going to get into close combat, he is going to pressure and exploit any openings that DK has, he is actually one of the few cases that Sonic's homing attack can be used without great worry of missing.
He can Uair,Bair, Fair and Nair DK to death and semispiking with the Dair definitely hurts DK.
I really can't see as to why Sonic would be disadvantaged to DK.
TO further show my point let us look at the case of DDD vs Sonic.
Why is it that Sonic has an advantage against a character who has a better recovery, better air game, better ground game than DK?
It makes no sense for SOnic to have a disadvantage to a character whose overall game doesn't counter him.


As for Wario I find that its easier to face against him than Luigi.
Mainly since Luigi's ground and airgame utterly murder Sonic due to reach and priority.

Wario does have great aerial speed which can be an issue but as said before the key to using Sonic is to control the pace of the match.
Controlling the spacing as well as knowing when to attack and when to back away is important for Sonic.
There is also his many approaches.
For wario I prefer spinshotting or dash grabbing though on theg round its more difficult since Wario's ground game is better than Wario's.
Aerially I do not believe its as great a threat because while Wario does have speed in the air the range of his attacks aren't too great so Sonic can use his Bair/Uair/Dair in order to cope.
It's why I don't think Wario is a disadvantage for Sonic, because by using defensive play and controlling the match and won't have as great an issue.
Especially since his aerial game isn't as strong as Luigi's.

And Lucario's far too easy to edgeguard...but I don't that counts for much.

Yeah its just too hard to fight Lucario whose aerial and ground game murders Sonic.

And Zelda's ground game murders Sonic, I don't think it's advantage there at all.

The problem with this is that Sonic isn't a ground character.
His main area of strength is aerial combat.
many believ it to be a disadantage since Zelda's ground game can be hindered due to Sonic's speed making it difficult for her to abuse Din's fire and Nayru's love. NOt too much though as people think. Her aerial game isn't too bad either since her Fair's and Bair's outrange everything and her Uair can KO him easily.
I think its more neutral than an advantage since Zelda can exploit his weaknesses though not to a great extent.

Hooray for the most non-biased post from any Sonic player ever!

No such thing as non bias.
A person is always a little biased regardless of how much they say they aren't.
Not to say I am not biased slightly but not overly so since i know Sonic's weaknesses and know Marth/MK/Luigi/Olimar and others hurt him badly and that many other characters are neutral for him as well because his priority hinders him greatly.

 

[Fugue]

Samus ... light weight

lol wut
Samus is a heavy. She's one of the heavist characters in the game.

 

[distr0ia]

On the Samus thing: I like to consider her suit/suitless as one character since you can switch when you pick her and she only takes one character slot on the selection screen. Samus' match-ups would be based on a 'mix' of the two. However, since everybody dislikes that (including people I play with) I'll add Zero Suit Samus as a separate character. That was poor insight on my part

you made the right choice. they are most definitely separate entities regarding character match-ups

I play both and switching mid-match is the last thing I would consider; you can only do it once and even then, it's very difficult and highly impractical

 

[DanGR]

I've only recently started to pick up Snake and it's the same for my brother with Olimar, so maybe all that i have to say only applies to novices. But basically from what i can tell...

An intelligent Snake will win out against an Olimar.

Reason being
1. A smart Snake will know Olimars range and stay out of it until an opportunity presents itself
2. Snake's camping game is far superior to Olimar's
3. Snake's primary attacks send Olimar flying
3.a Easy vertical kills from C4, Claymore, UpTilt, Dtilt Uair
3.b Easy Horizontal kills from Ftilt, Bair, Jab combo, F&B throws and if not killed, easily gimped through edgehogging. I am aware that that can be avoided through throwing purple pikmin, but i doubt many can pull that off with ease.
4. Snake is heavy enough to take Olimar's overpowered hits well with proper DI
5. Snake's mindgame potential > Olimar's and pretty much every other character in the game
6. Against a campy Olimar Snake's Dash attack plows through and kills thrown pikmin I believe (could be mistaken here)
7. Boost-smash/Dash attack = quick attack/retreat for spacing

Olimar's advantages over Snake:
1. better range for close combat
2. better aerial game overall
3. Can rack up damage very quickly if given the opportunity

And that's all that i can think off the top of my head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmr1k2xJHE

watch this vid and prove
"2. Snake's camping game is far superior to Olimar's"
"4. Snake is heavy enough to take Olimar's overpowered hits well with proper DI"
and
"5. Snake's mindgame potential > Olimar's and pretty much every other character in the game"

An intelligent Snake will win out against an Olimar.

An intelligent Olimar will win out against an intelligent Snake.

All i want is for IvanEva to change the matchup to "~". that's all i ask.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol wut
Samus is a heavy. She's one of the heavist characters in the game.[/QUOTE

Not lightweight like jigglypuff more towards the middle.
She's a heavy character? I tohught she actually was lighter thanthat considering how floaty she is in the air. O_O

 

[Aminar]

Falling speed is seperate from weight. Samus is heavy because of her armor, but floaty because thats an effect of her armor(something about being made by the chozo). C Falcon is heavy because of muscle, but falls fast to make his playstyle seem faster.

 

[DanGR]

And Zelda's ground game murders Sonic, I don't think it's advantage there at all.

EXACTLY. zelda completely tears up sonic in every category of their respective gameplays.

air- zelda's sweetspotted moves outprioritize, and outrange sonic.

ground-zelda's tilts disable sonics approaches.(uptilt mainly)

recovery- with sonic's range on his moves, it's hard for him to punish a badly timed recovery by zelda. it's sonic you're talking about, don't forget.

approaching- see ground. plus zelda doesn't approach sonic(den's fire)

weight-zelda>sonic

 

[ShadowLink84]

EXACTLY. zelda completely tears up sonic in every category of their respective gameplays.

air- zelda's sweetspotted moves outprioritize, and outrange sonic.

assuming of course the Sonic attacks Zelda directly which is NEVER going to happen.

ground-zelda's tilts disable sonics approaches.(uptilt mainly)

how? Go into detail please.

recovery- with sonic's range on his moves, it's hard for him to punish a badly timed recovery by zelda. it's sonic you're talking about, don't forget.

I disregarded this statement.
Sonic is fast both air and on ground. homing attack gives him great range and Farore takes some time to start up.

approaching- see ground. plus zelda doesn't approach sonic(den's fire)

Spindash and charge say hi to Din's fire.

weight-zelda>sonic

She still goes to her doom from a Uair at 90%. ^_^

THat and weightis a poor factor to even mention.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

assuming of course the Sonic attacks Zelda directly which is NEVER going to happen.

how? Go into detail please.

I disregarded this statement.
Sonic is fast both air and on ground. homing attack gives him great range and Farore takes some time to start up.

Spindash and charge say hi to Din's fire.


She still goes to her doom from a Uair at 90%. ^_^

THat and weightis a poor factor to even mention.

1) Sonic is going to have to attack zelda directly as he has no indirect attacks... no projectiles, no disjointed hitboxes nothing.... except his spring which cannot seriously be used as an attack in this sense.

2) Zelda's tilts are ALL very good. Her down tilt can trap an enemy in at least 3 trips and then be comboed into a FSmash, her Ftilt has a lot of punishing power to it, it's fast, it has better range than most if not all of sonic's ground moves and it has better priorty too. Finally, her uptilt. It has great strength and great priority... and the range isn't bad... in fact, it's got enough range/priority to beat out ANY of sonic's aerial approaces... any one of them. Not to mention that her Dsmash outspeeds any of sonic's ground moves and has decent power and great trajectory. Her Fssmash has better range than ANY of sonic's moves and can easily pull him out of a spindas and, finally her Usmash which protects her by outprioritizing and outranging an approach from sonic in ANY DIRECTION seriosuly, he can't break through it, and it lasts long enough that he can't dodge through it either. His dashgrab is so bad that he can't even rush in that way to start something.

3) And if sonic's homing attack doesn't reach zelda in time, she will be gone by the time the spindash reaches her, and sonic will be in a sticky situation. Also, while farores wind is slowish, it's not slow enough for sonic to homing attack it unless he's already close to her when she starts it. he really can't punish her recovery well, but she can punish his since he doesn't have an aeiral which can break trhough her smashes if he's forced to recover into her.

4) True, spindash can go through din's fire with no problem... the problem is, sonic is not always in a position where being forced to use a spindash is advantageous... in fact, often, it's easily punishable... If you happen to be charging your spin, for example, and zelda shoots a din's fire at you, you'll have to release your dash or be hit, then she can charge an Usmash and if you aren't capable of turning around in time, it'll hit you whether you try to jump over it or not. Just as it will with any homing attack. If you are off the edge, of course, spindashing might not be an option, and it'll never be an option off a spring.

5) If all other things were equal, zelda would have the advantage due to weight, but they are not equal so it only furthers her dominance. plain and simple.


I main zelda, but sonic was my main for a while and he's a strong secondary even now, trust me, I love sonic, but he CANNOT beat an equally, or more skilled zelda, it's just that simple.


Final Ruling on Zelda Vs. Sonic:
Sonic is a character who relies on his speed to pressure other characters. He's kinda a lightweight and is tremendously underpowered with very few solid KO options short of gimping recoveries. Even so, zelda's recovery style does not play well into sonic's gimping style. Sonic's biggest shortcomings, however, may not be his lack of power, but, really, his lack of priority.

Zelda is a character who focuses on hitting hard. She is very unique in that she has a frail psysique, but some of the hardest hitting moves in the game. She has exceltent range and awesome priority. Her aerials also bost obscene power and have great priority as well. Their range is decent, but better than the range on sonic's aerials. The only shortcoming of her aerials is thta they take pinpoint precision to really be used to their fullest potential.

What does this mean? well Sonic's habit ofrunning around the stage constantly to apply pressure, but lacking any high priority moves means that zelda has her veritable pick of the litter for moves which can slap sonic out of his motions. A lot of zelda's moves have enough startup lag that sonic will probably connect with a hit or two once in a while, but zelda's moves pack enough punch that she'll win when it comes to trading blows. If the zelda is on her toes, she should be able to counter any apprach that sonic attempts, and even diminished power moves will still pack more punch than sonic can if he connects.

Sonic often relies on his aerial pressure as well, but, unfortunately, if zelda connects with a single aerial, it will probably be enough to kill a sonic who has taken any damage at all. While it takes precision to hit with her aerials, if she's on her game, she can outrange most of sonic's aerial approaches. Even if she's not, the potential power there should be enough to scare sonic away from his normally reliable airgame... and, sadly she's just as dominant of the matchup on the ground...

... frankly, sonic relies on his ability to pressure enemies to have a chance at winning, but he falls drastically short of the mark when dealing with high-priority/high-range opponents... of which zelda is one... he simply can't pressure that which he has a hard time getting inside and hitting.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

shadowlink84, you never responded to my challenge. is something wrong?

 

[hizzlum]

As for the marth updated part of the chart, in my opinion he has an advantage over lucario beacuse of his low % edgeguarding kills and lucario's easily punishable recovery. just doing a double fair or nair off the stage and then grabbing the edge will at most times get you a kill on him. As for D3, marth gets super easy combos on D3's huge body, his predicatble recovery gets easy edgeguards, and marth is just faster than D3, so he can prey on D 3's slowness, so i think it is a soft counter in favor of marth . As for olimar vs marth, thats a pretty even match up that really depends on how well the character expoilts the other's weaknesses(marth can get edgeguard kills of olimar terrible recovery, and olimar and spam pimin from range and rack up damage on marth easy). but nice chart otherwise

 

[ChokE]

I just want to add that just because you can neutralize pit's arrows, does not mean you have an advantage against pit. Please make your agruement against pit's other attacks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

As for the marth updated part of the chart, in my opinion he has an advantage over lucario beacuse of his low % edgeguarding kills and lucario's easily punishable recovery. just doing a double fair or nair off the stage and then grabbing the edge will at most times get you a kill on him. As for D3, marth gets super easy combos on D3's huge body, his predicatble recovery gets easy edgeguards, and marth is just faster than D3, so he can prey on D 3's slowness, so i think it is a soft counter in favor of marth . As for olimar vs marth, thats a pretty even match up that really depends on how well the character expoilts the other's weaknesses(marth can get edgeguard kills of olimar terrible recovery, and olimar and spam pimin from range and rack up damage on marth easy). but nice chart otherwise

adding on here, I'm a zelda main, and I have a lot of trouble with marths... zelda is very reliant on her high range/priority and the fact that marth can pull out moves with more range and higher priority faster really hampers her... maybe some other zelda playstyle gets past this, but mine does not.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I could see Dedede vs Marth being 6/4 in Marth's favor in the future.

The more I research the match-up the more I realize that Dedede has to work pretty hard to get in damage. Yeah he has a CG, but that's pretty much it. He lives long, but Marth beats on him like a bloated pinata, so the fact that he lives long doesn't help him all that much.

Marth has slight advantage on Zelda, but it might change to 7/3 in the future since Marth can just zone her so easily and she is lighter then him so she does easy.

I PERSONALLY think that Marth has slight advantage on Lucario, but for the sake of making an accurare match-up list on the Marth boards, I must remain objective and go by the facts. And going by the evidence it seems like they go pretty even.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I could see Dedede vs Marth being 6/4 in Marth's favor in the future.

The more I research the match-up the more I realize that Dedede has to work pretty hard to get in damage. Yeah he has a CG, but that's pretty much it. He lives long, but Marth beats on him like a bloated pinata, so the fact that he lives long doesn't help him all that much.

Marth has slight advantage on Zelda, but it might change to 7/3 in the future since Marth can just zone her so easily and she is lighter then him so she does easy.

I PERSONALLY think that Marth has slight advantage on Lucario, but for the sake of making an accurare match-up list on the Marth boards, I must remain objective and go by the facts. And going by the evidence it seems like they go pretty even.

The difference between lucario and Zelda for the purposes of the marth matchup is that lucario's moves come out faster and tend to reach farther than zelda's... that's zelda's big problem with marth, and it's not as big aproblem for lucario. Plus, lucario isn't juggled as easily.

I mean, don't get me wrong, zelda packs a punch strong enough to KO marth at a relatively low damage... she just has trouble getting in there to do it... luacrio lacks the punch, but has many more opportunities.

 

[Sakki]

Not sure how you missed the other 2 videos that go with that DSF vs Mr. X set but here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvSB0v25QE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIvHCZOWCQ&feature=related

What you should is only one video and for the majority of the match you can tell that DSF is playing too aggressively. DSF is clearly not DIing away as he ought to and keeps walking into Olimar's range carelessly. In the later part, you can see DSF regaining some control of the match by switching to defensive play, but by then it's too late. Also, that's only 1 video. If you had bothered to watch R1 & 3 you'll notice that DSF has control of the match for the most part in both videos, which is why he won best 2/3. I know that Olimar messed up in R1 and was counter-stage picked in R3, but even still you dont see anything close to what was going on in R2 because DSF isn't dumb enough to repeat the same mistake.

 

[Browny]

Why is it that Sonic has an advantage against a character who has a better recovery, better air game, better ground game than DK?
It makes no sense for SOnic to have a disadvantage to a character whose overall game doesn't counter him.

Dedede recovery is extremely easy to punish, theres absolutely nothing he can do to prevent getting b-aired or u-aired at the peak of his up-b. DKs recovery is harder to gimp. and DK can kill at far lower % than dedede will. 1 head stomp thing (whats the name lol) and a giant punch can kill very easily at around 80% while Dedede's only chance of a low % kill is a gordo, which is out of the question since its random, and approaching dedede with SH's is just asking for it. Ive played many Dededes and i generally get to about 130% + before they kill me, DK seems to do it below 100% every time.

 

[IvanEva]

bowser > jiggly

I agree. Bowser's forward air and tilts are excellent at keeping Jigglypuff away. His Fire Breath can really annoy her if she's recovering level or lower than the stage and his up-B is like activating an anti-Jigglypuff forcefield.

Jigglypuff's advantage of being able to Wall of Pain Bowser easily is lessened by airdodging into a Whirling Fortress. Not too bad but I agree with the Bowser advantage.

Arrow Chasing allows Pit to punish anyone who tries to absorb their shots. Add in the fact that most of my arrow shots hit my opponent from behind. Oddly enough Lucas' PK Magnet actually sticks out in front of him, making it even easier for Pit to avoid arrow absorption.

What's Arrow Chasing? That term has come up before in this thread (and I'm not too keen on hunting around for the answer). PSI Magnet works very well against arrows (and absorbs on both sides).

anyway regarding Sonic Vs iceclimbers i see no reason why this is a disadvantage. Sonic can separate nana easily, just like everyone else can and can easily juggle nana off the top every time with 0-death combos since theres no air dodging nana can do and with the spring he can stay completely out of popos range. I played against my brothers ice climbers and once i separated the two, it was instant death for nana every time be it by spring - uair juggling or simply edgeguarding with the bair it was impossible for popo to do anything to stop it, if he tried chasing me off the stage he risked getting gimped without nana to help recover, and its not like he can kill sonic anyway since the spring sends him well out of popos reach.

ignoring ice climbers chain grab, which i think you have to do for this entire chart otherwise they would all be disadvantaged to IC, sure sonic has the initial approach problems but one they get separated for the first time, its GG for nana.

Ignoring their chain grabs is like ignoring Sonic's spin attacks. Would everybody be at a disadvantage to Ice Climbers? Maybe. It would come down to how hard it would be to avoid the grabs. After all, missed grabs are open for punishment. As well, how 'good' are your brother's Ice Climbers? From what I've seen, they're not THAT easy to separate and then kill Nana (while Popo watches?).

sooo according to this list G&W is top tier? He has the most advantageous matches and the least weak match-ups. G&W seems good but not that good. I dunno, just might wanna re-evaluate some of the G&W match-ups

He IS top tier. His only real weakness is that he's light (and, for whatever reason, gets pulled over more than the others). Is he as good as the chart makes him seem? Well, remember that the number of advantages doesn't necessarily reflect tier status. Tiers have to take into account just HOW MUCH of an advantage he has on everybody. I'm of the opinion that Mr. Game and Watch's biggest problem tournament-wise is actually popularity.

As always, pick a match-up and post why you disagree.

Ivan, I love this list as I'm using it to formulate my own Tier lists (Which on Gamefaqs is considered by many to be very good) bt could you at least fill in those empty spots on the chart ASAP?

Nope. If something is still blank it's because I have no experience in that match-up and nobody else has posted anything either.

you made the right choice. they are most definitely separate entities regarding character match-ups

I play both and switching mid-match is the last thing I would consider; you can only do it once and even then, it's very difficult and highly impractical

Haha. Oh, my naivety from "back in the day". I still second Samus (although I've been playing Yoshi more than her lately - somehow) and I still switch to Zero Suit Samus every now and then. The best (err, only) time to do so is when I land a vertical kill with her down tilt. It gives her enough time to transform (i.e. it give the Wii enough time to load ZSS). Transforming itself is no problem with me unless my hands are cold. Landing a down tilt is the harder part. However, I'm embarassed that I ever considered them both as 'one'.

All i want is for IvanEva to change the matchup to "~". that's all i ask.

Sounds pretty good to me (although I still believe that Snake has an advantage. I've never played against an Olimar though so I can't use that for the chart).


A SUGGESTION: I'm thinking of changing all current 'disputed' match-ups to 'neutral' since if it's being disputed it usually means that people believe that both ends are correct, something which often leads to the middle ground being taken (at least until one side is convinced). The question marks will be to fill out the blank spaces instead (as that would also help to highlight them). What do you guys think? Good? Bad? I think that it would help people think about their arguments since pulling the advantage one way from a neutral requires more in-depts arguments than when you argue against a disputed. The difference is that when something is 'disputed' it's easier to assume that the opposing side is just plain wrong (at least from my observations/experience).

On the neutral note, does anybody have any suggestions for the neutral symbol? The current symbol looks more like a turd than anything else. Should I change anything about it? The colour at least? Maybe make it a circle or something?

Lastly, I have to humbly ask that flaming and such be left out of this thread. If people read rude remarks to each other instead of intelligent discussions, I worry that they'll be turned off of this thread and not contribute.

 

[RazeveX]

Dedede recovery is extremely easy to punish, theres absolutely nothing he can do to prevent getting b-aired or u-aired at the peak of his up-b.

I'm pretty sure it's called...super armor?

 

[Vaul]

How is DK's strengths and priority an advantage?
Many of DK's attacks are slow and very easy to avoid.
The fact that DK is big makes it much easier for Sonic to combo DK and if DK goes off the stage he is pretty much boned, something that isn't too hard.
Granted DK does have some quick moves but they aren't too much of an issue.
Since Sonic can space against DK he can control the match and force DK into making mistakes.
Sonic isn't going to get into close combat, he is going to pressure and exploit any openings that DK has, he is actually one of the few cases that Sonic's homing attack can be used without great worry of missing.
He can Uair,Bair, Fair and Nair DK to death and semispiking with the Dair definitely hurts DK.
I really can't see as to why Sonic would be disadvantaged to DK.
TO further show my point let us look at the case of DDD vs Sonic.
Why is it that Sonic has an advantage against a character who has a better recovery, better air game, better ground game than DK?
It makes no sense for SOnic to have a disadvantage to a character whose overall game doesn't counter him.

No, no...god no.
Sonic can combo DK...that is, assuming he can safely get to him. That's about all he has going for him in this matchup.
You're seriously underestimating DK's recovery. It outprioritizes all of sonic's aerials. And it has SA frames to boot.
DK has amazing ground game. He is ground game. He is the ultimate anti-air character.
DK's range is Sonic's worst nightmare. Wait, I take that back. DK's weight is sonic's worst nightmare. The man is heavy. Really heavy. Sonic has a problem finishing off characters to begin with. DK is absolutely no pushover, and with his vast array of kill moves (the majority of his moves have KO ability), Sonic is going to have a much harder time KOing DK than vice versa.

And if you'd like, I'd be more than happy to go Wifi with you.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What's Arrow Chasing? That term has come up before in this thread (and I'm not too keen on hunting around for the answer). PSI Magnet works very well against arrows (and absorbs on both sides).

You loop the arrow so that it follows you and approach while the arrow is comming behind you. Attempts to attack you are interupted by the arrow, and attempts to block the arrow are interupted by you. It's pretty cool when you can pull it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUQdBI1v0yU&feature=related

I have a feeling this will become more and more usefull.

 

[Facet]

A SUGGESTION: I'm thinking of changing all current 'disputed' match-ups to 'neutral' since if it's being disputed it usually means that people believe that both ends are correct, something which often leads to the middle ground being taken (at least until one side is convinced). The question marks will be to fill out the blank spaces instead (as that would also help to highlight them). What do you guys think? Good? Bad? I think that it would help people think about their arguments since pulling the advantage one way from a neutral requires more in-depts arguments than when you argue against a disputed. The difference is that when something is 'disputed' it's easier to assume that the opposing side is just plain wrong (at least from my observations/experience).

Well, you cant list something thats obviously one way or the other as neutral just because one guy is too stubbornly loyal to his main.

On the neutral note, does anybody have any suggestions for the neutral symbol? The current symbol looks more like a turd than anything else. Should I change anything about it? The colour at least? Maybe make it a circle or something?

Changing advantage to green checkmarks and using a blue circle for neutral would make the most sense to me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think an "=" sign works best for neutral... "+" for advantage and "-" for dissadvantage would work too... but I prefer the red x.

as long as you're here though, Ive made my suggestions for changing the sonic-olimar matchup to even and the zelda-marth matchup to marth's favour.... dos anyone have comments on this? I've given my reasons all stated earlier, but I can repost them if asked.

I'd also like to add that due to increased range, power and projectile ability, I find that link beats his cell shaded counterpart so, in short:

Zelda < Marth
Sonic = Olimar
Link > Toon Link

 

[Sakki]

I agree with Facet for the colors.

I'd also like to bring to your attention that Wolf > Toon Link

One of my mains is Toon Link and same goes for my brother with Wolf, and we just had extremely intense Wolf vs Toon Link session. I lost a good majority of the matches.

Wolf's absurd hitbox ***** TLink making him difficult to approach as well as retreating. TLink roll is just short enough to get hit by the very tip of Wolf's Fsmash, which is enough to kill at higher %s. Reflector makes boomerang/arrows unreliable as well. Wolf's approach from below is also too good for Tlink; levels with platforms hurt Tlink when against Wolf.

Overall very frustrating to lose repeatedly despite trying various tactics. discuss?