Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[supercake]

they're not the same character... at all.

Thankyou. You can go away now.

 

[LordZero]

True Pit can reflect PK Fire, but a good Lucas should know this, so the move should be used in a more defencive mannor. Lucas can also outdo pit in the air as far as attacks go and if he knocked off, pit has to have either knoked him high up or far out, pit has to put him self in somewhat danger to keep Lucas off while Lucas can be like "PK Thunder" and Pit can't do a thing.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Thankyou. You can go away now.

no. drown.

 

[supercake]

no. drown.

isssuing one word commands lol. deathtroll another thread.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

isssuing one word commands lol. deathtroll another thread.

you mistakenly assumed anything that's true for ness is true for lucas. i corrected you. if you're going to get all pissy over that, then... nobody can help you, really.

 

[supercake]

Ness and lucas are similar characters, with similar specials.
I'm sorry, but you are a troll with a history of abberrant behavior.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd argue that sonic vs. olimar is not in olimar's favour.... but that might depend on the way that the olimar plays.

Most moves in sonic's repetoir can utterly destroy any pikmin which misses him or is latched onto him and he's fast enough to stop olimar from plucking anymore. I do recognize that a good olimar can probably avoid this, but also that that means that the olimar will be forced to play more conservatively and that that probably makes the matchup closer to even.



edit: I don't really wanna get sucked into the argument going on around me, but I will provide the common knowledge input that:

Ness and lucas have similar speeds, weights and all around parameters, not to mention that many of their attacks look similar. But looks can be decieving and many of their attacks are far different. So far, in fact, that it's enough to make them match up COMPLETELY different in some match-ups

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Ness and lucas are similar characters, with similar specials.
I'm sorry, but you are a troll with a history of abberrant behavior.

ness and lucas are similar in name only. most of their attacks are completely different.

 

[Undrdog]

True Pit can reflect PK Fire, but a good Lucas should know this, so the move should be used in a more defencive mannor. Lucas can also outdo pit in the air as far as attacks go and if he knocked off, pit has to have either knoked him high up or far out, pit has to put him self in somewhat danger to keep Lucas off while Lucas can be like "PK Thunder" and Pit can't do a thing.

I know this isn't too applicable to the topic at hand, but if Lucas is in the middle of his PK Thunder, what's to stop Pit from simply canceling the PK Thunder by nailing Lucas with an arrow? From anywhere on the stage.

 

[Browny]

lol looks like no one saw my post earlier.

anyway regarding Sonic Vs iceclimbers i see no reason why this is a disadvantage. Sonic can separate nana easily, just like everyone else can and can easily juggle nana off the top every time with 0-death combos since theres no air dodging nana can do and with the spring he can stay completely out of popos range. I played against my brothers ice climbers and once i separated the two, it was instant death for nana every time be it by spring - uair juggling or simply edgeguarding with the bair it was impossible for popo to do anything to stop it, if he tried chasing me off the stage he risked getting gimped without nana to help recover, and its not like he can kill sonic anyway since the spring sends him well out of popos reach.

ignoring ice climbers chain grab, which i think you have to do for this entire chart otherwise they would all be disadvantaged to IC, sure sonic has the initial approach problems but one they get separated for the first time, its GG for nana.

 

[Mic_128]

Supercake, Vulgar, enough from the both of you.

 

[Surri-Sama]

*Edited because I agree that the 300 reference was lame *

You can't complain that this thread lacks insight when you can't even back up your match-up claim with anything other than "I keep winning".

Your right, which is exactly why i see no point to this chart, my data from playing the game, is diffrent then your data from analizing it, doesnt make much sense does it?

 

[Zetsuei]

ness and lucas are similar in name only. most of their attacks are completely different.

How are their names similar? But their moves are very similar. Not exact. Similar.

They use the same basic attacks, but utilize them differently, such as Lucas holds his vB shield in front of him but Ness covers himself with it. Its the same attack, just used differently. Some of their attacks are different, but in essence they are close enough to be called similar.

 

[Surri-Sama]

How are their names similar? But their moves are very similar. Not exact. Similar.

They use the same basic attacks, but utilize them differently, such as Lucas holds his vB shield in front of him but Ness covers himself with it. Its the same attack, just used differently. Some of their attacks are different, but in essence they are close enough to be called similar.

A mod told yous to stop this stupidness, and just for the record, Ness, Lucus, have the same last sylabole sound. I guess thats what he is pointing at, both partys of that arguement, didnt make a lot of sense so =.=

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

"in name only" doesn't refer to their ACTUAL names. it's a phrase that, in this context, means they were designed to let players know they're related (because they're both earthbound characters), but other than that they're actually pretty unique.

for example, ness and lucas both have pk thunder, but the two thunders have different properties. same for the pk fires, but more extreme. pk freeze is nothing like pk flash. lucas's grab range compared to ness's? lucas's upsmash and dsmash compared to ness's? i could keep going.

they have some similarities, yes, but their movesets are too unique for one to assume that whatever is true for one is true for the other, at least in the context of match ups.

 

[Surri-Sama]

"in name only" doesn't refer to their ACTUAL names. it's a phrase that, in this context, means they were designed to let players know they're related (because they're both earthbound characters), but other than that they're actually pretty unique.

for example, ness and lucas both have pk thunder, but the two thunders have different properties. same for the pk fires, but more extreme. pk freeze is nothing like pk flash. lucas's grab range compared to ness's? lucas's upsmash and dsmash compared to ness's? i could keep going.

they have some similarities, yes, but their movesets are too unique for one to assume that whatever is true for one is true for the other, at least in the context of match ups.

Apply this knowlage to every char, and how every char can be played, and you will see why i dont think these charts have a point

 

[Emblem Lord]

For every fighting game that I have ever played there was ALWAYS a match-up list/chart.

Cept for MvC2 and CvS2 but that's a team based Metagame so it makes sense that there wouldn't be individual match-ups.

But for every other game. There was a chart. You are going to just spit in the face of a time tested method that shows which characters are better or worse then others overall? Something that is always backed up by data and evidence?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Go to SRK and tell them that the match-up chart for third strike is wrong. Go ahead and tell them that Chun-li vs Hugo isn't 9-1, with Chun-li having massive advantage. Actually it's been awhile since I looked at the chart, but I'm pretty sure it's 9-1 or 8-2. Anyway go ahead and do that.

They will laugh you out of the site.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Your right, which is exactly why i see no point to this chart, my data from playing the game, is diffrent then your data from analizing it, doesnt make much sense does it?

Anecdotal evidencde doesn't mean a **** thing so please stop using it.

If 100 people agree that Snake ***** Bowser and you have 1 case in which bowser ***** Snake does tyhis mean a chart is fruitless?
No it does not. For a debater you're doing poorly.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I've noticed that as this thread has grown more popular, it's spent less time on matchups and more time on justifying its existence. Seriously, if you don't think the chart is useful, ignore it. Is it really that hard?

 

[Zetsuei]

Seriously. Kiwikomix really does have a point.

Heres another thing I would like to see a chart for- what two characters do well together, like a match-up chart that shows what characters do well as a 2-man team.

And if you really want to get complicated, which teams have advantages over other teams. But that would take eternity...

 

[Facet]

I'd just like to point out some interesting discrepencies between this thread and this other one, which ranks characters impartially according to tournament results. One would expect characters with a ton of good matchups, particularly against popular characters, to place very well in tournaments, yes? And the reverse should be true of characters with tons of bad matchups, right? But we observe the following:

- King Dedede places fairly well, 4th overall. However, in the matchup chart he is at a disadvantage against a whopping 19 characters, including Snake and Metaknight!

- Zelda apparently has the advatage over 19 characters, including Snake, ROB, and Dedede. (and is even against MK and Marth). Yet she places terribly.

These were the two most pronounced examples I noticed. To me this suggests that either the chart is completely wrong, or that popularity (and lackthereof) is playing a large role in distorting data from tournament results.

 

[-Ran]

It also is a matter of how many players have used Zelda. Going off of the rankings alone of a character that is winning tournament skews the results. If a character is played more, invariably he has a higher chance of placing Higher. Tournaments should strive on reporting characters used + those that win for the best reporting possible.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Of course Dedede is at a disadvantage to Snake and MK. Seriously, Snake just destroys heavier characters and MK can just score hit after hit after hit, with Dedede being too slow to punish most of his mistakes.
Ran Iji is also right about the popularity of characters determining placement in character rankings. And no way does she not lose to MK, Snake, ROB and Marth. That needs to be changed.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I'd just like to point out some interesting discrepencies between this thread and this other one, which ranks characters impartially according to tournament results. One would expect characters with a ton of good matchups, particularly against popular characters, to place very well in tournaments, yes? And the reverse should be true of characters with tons of bad matchups, right? But we observe the following:

- King Dedede places fairly well, 4th overall. However, in the matchup chart he is at a disadvantage against a whopping 19 characters, including Snake and Metaknight!

- Zelda apparently has the advatage over 19 characters, including Snake, ROB, and Dedede. (and is even against MK and Marth). Yet she places terribly.

These were the two most pronounced examples I noticed. To me this suggests that either the chart is completely wrong, or that popularity (and lackthereof) is playing a large role in distorting data from tournament results.

hey! you're not allowed to say those kinds of things here! just leave, just leave!

 

[Blad01]

About Falco :

# Why does he have a disadvantage against Ness, and an advantage about Lucas ?I fear Mucas more...

# Math-up against Pikachu would be Neutral in my opinion... Hum, that could change, though.

# Wolf can be a danger for Falco.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Facet is correct.

It's both reasons actually.

Dedede's match-ups are wrong IMO. He does well vs alot of characters. He has enough good match-ups to be high tier. Since he is so popular he does well in tournies though.

Zelda has good match-ups too and the chart reflects that. But she is unpopular and no one that is really good plays her. So she doesn't do well in tournies at all.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

That, and a character that has disadvantages doesn't mean that he can't win >_>

 

[Earthbound360]

About Falco :

# Why does he have a disadvantage against Ness, and an advantage about Lucas ?I fear Mucas more....

Ness out does him in the air and he can duck under lasers. Since he falls fast and Ness combos with air attacks, he falls easily into many of his move and his DI ability out of the fair is sub-par. Since he falls fast, he is also very easy to combo with the yo-yo since both hits almost always connect.

For Lucas, his blaster outranges PKF limiting his approaches heavily. Also, since PKF plays a huge role in Lucas game, and Falco can reflect it with ease, it really makes it hard for him. His comboing ability doesnt match that of Ness'.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i agree that the snake vs zelda match up might be wrong (which is my bad i was wrong in a much older post) at the time i thought zelda had the advantage but at that time i had yet to fight a truly great snake i had only fought so-so or just good but nothing special and now that i have my thoughts on the matchup have changed and it is i now think in snakes favor

but in no way doea R.O.B beat zelda. zelda stops his distance game with neutral B, her u smash can get him very well since he is a pretty big target so it can pull him in from a bit of a distance. This is the same reason din's fire is easy to hit as well as f-smash(sorry for the lack of describtion i am tired right now) Let me just say i have had no trouble with R.O.B's at all. all he really has is a good off the edge game which can be trouble and weight against zelda but thats just not enough i think.

And MK speed gives zelda trouble but she has moves that have more priority then his moves (her f-smash beats his twister for example) i could see this match being in mk advantage but i don't think by much no mk i have played has destroyed me (and i have played a good deal of them they are everywere) the only one that beat me want to three matches each one very close so i think at this moment having that even is a fair call but it is one that could change in the future.

And for some reason i never get to play good ddd's idk why there were plenty at the tournaments i've gone to but i have not yet gotten to play a good one so i can't comment on this fight

 

[Browny]

i honestly only attribute the fact dedede did well in early tournaments was because many people were unaware of how to escape his chain grab and didnt know how to punish his recovery. its the same with wolf, at the start people didnt know how to deal with his fsmash and blaster, but now people are figurng out how to get by (remembering you can have multiple air odges) and how to punish his recovery hes not placing too well like he used too...

 

[Retroking2000]

lol leave these threads to phanna XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Im a zelda main, and, wile I'm not a pro, I AM comptitive and, trust me, she is awesome. he has more good matchups than bad ones. She has no trouble killing the big characters because of how easy it is for her to connect with them even lightning kicks. I mean, DDD, for example is just an easy pick for her. Hi wadle dee wall does nothing to stop din's fire, he's too big to DI out of her smashes easily, even at higher damages and his combination of size and likelihood f being in the air make him the PERFECT target for lightning kicks..

Meta knicht is a rather hard matchup sincehe's just so fast and so tiny HOWEVER, I still give zeldaAT LEAST even ground here. Metaknight's sword is just too short to outrange zelda's powerful magical attacks. Her upsmash completely destroys him whem he tries to attack fro above, making his otherwise reliable UB KO a poor deceison if it doesn't connect. Her FSmash puls him out of his tornado and maybe even his corkscrew. If he trys to retreat after using one of his moves, Din's fire can easily punish him. In fact, Din's fire can actually KO metaknight more reliabl than you might think, specilly for how often he's airborne. Also, using Din's fire offensivelyor to return to the ground toavoid bing juggled is a good way to counteract MK's airgame some... especially with the consideration that one lightning kick will killl MK if he has anything more than, say, 40% damage. It's not zelda's easiest matchup, but it's still in her favour.

As for bad matchups... so far I've found that marth is just terrible for her by both outspeeding and outreaching all her moves (OK, he doesn't outspeed Dsmash or outrange Din's fire, but you know what I mean.)

in response to the bad matchups you have up for her: G&W, Wario, Squirtle and Sonic. I haven't had any truoble with any of those yet... but I am the best squrtle or sonic in the imediate area, so, sin ce I can't play myself, I can't say much there. I guess I might just be playing a bad warior or a bad G&W, but honestly, I don't see what's so scary about wario for zelda.


As for non-zelda matchups up there... I've already posted why I think Sonic is at least EVEN with olimar if not FAVOURED.

And I notice you don't have an adult link Vs. Toon link matcup yet. Honestly, I tend to favour adult link here... true, toon link is better on the whole, but since link's projectile range power and speed beat out his cartoon counterpart's as does his range and strength, he takes away alot of what makes toon link great by 1-upping him.... granted link's still rubbish of the edge, but if you play the match on the stage for the majority of the time, I see Adult Link pulling out ahead more often than not.

(I appologize for any typos... just blame my laptop keyboard)

 

[Pow3r]

this is so stupid, Peach doesnt have that many counters, i use her and beat a lot of people... her glide toss is amazing, her moves may have been nerfed but other of her attacks have been improved greatly, including her verticle recovery. Her peach bomber is even better then in melee. her grab may have been nerfed but i still find great use for it. i really doubt that she has THAT many counters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic at a disadvantage against Samus?
that's stupid.
Sonic at a disadvantage against pit?
Sonic completely murder's Pit's ranged game of arrow usage and his Uair and Bair can actually beat out some of Pit's aerials.
granted Sonic can't gimp but he can pressure Pit to the point he can land kills via Uair or Fairing.

i believe Pikachu to be more neutral since Sonic can take pikachu on in the air and on the ground Sonic's speed can take apart Pikachu's ranged game. thunder is very slow in movement and a poor edgeguard due to the air dodging system.

Sonic is neutral with Lucas he can very easily approach Lucas and gimp him at low percents. not to mention his aerial game does well against Lucas despite the lack of priority.

Wario is actually neutral there really isn't much to cause an issue if he faces Wario.

Why would Sonic be at a disadvantage against DK? That's one of Sonic's best matchups.

ike and ivysaur being disputd?
Sonic has a good advantage over Ike and Ivysaur since he can get up close very quickly and abuse their poor recovery ability. His speed makes it difficult for Ivysaur to keep up and even if Ivysaur tries to play defensively Sonic can very easily approach him.
At the very least they should be neutral matches for him.

Lucario is a bad matchup for Sonic no argument there.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Sonic at a disadvantage against Samus?
that's stupid.
Sonic at a disadvantage against pit?
Sonic completely murder's Pit's ranged game of arrow usage and his Uair and Bair can actually beat out some of Pit's aerials.
granted Sonic can't gimp but he can pressure Pit to the point he can land kills via Uair or Fairing.

i believe Pikachu to be more neutral since Sonic can take pikachu on in the air and on the ground Sonic's speed can take apart Pikachu's ranged game. thunder is very slow in movement and a poor edgeguard due to the air dodging system.

Sonic is neutral with Lucas he can very easily approach Lucas and gimp him at low percents. not to mention his aerial game does well against Lucas despite the lack of priority.

Wario is actually neutral there really isn't much to cause an issue if he faces Wario.

Why would Sonic be at a disadvantage against DK? That's one of Sonic's best matchups.

ike and ivysaur being disputd?
Sonic has a good advantage over Ike and Ivysaur since he can get up close very quickly and abuse their poor recovery ability. His speed makes it difficult for Ivysaur to keep up and even if Ivysaur tries to play defensively Sonic can very easily approach him.
At the very least they should be neutral matches for him.

Lucario is a bad matchup for Sonic no argument there.

this is a ridiculously biased post. seriously.

firs tof all, thunder is unfairly hard to get around. i've only ever met one player who could airdodge through it consistently. sonic can't take pikachu in the air... at worst it's even, and with sonic's bad priority, there's no way you could win an aerial fight with pikachu. sonic's ground game is practically on a different console compared to pikachu's ground game. you can't do ANYTHING to pikachu if all the pikachu player does is dsmash spam when you're nearby. trust me, i do it all the time. pikachu doesn't have enough lag for you to take advantage of much of anything.

second of all, you tell us that sonic has this great approach against all of these characters... but what is it? i'm especially interested in how you think sonic "murders pit's ranged game." you know pit is one of the best campers in what has been recognized as a very defensively oriented game?

i'm also wondering how you think sonic has this great approach against ivysaur... ivysaur essentially controls the air at all times, and has a projectile, something sonic doesn't have.

in short, you tell us that sonic can approach, combo in the air, combo on the ground, and gimp... but you don't say how. the other people are holding their controllers too you know.

 

[DanGR]

why is snake good against olimar? olimar has a superior range game, and that's the jist of my arguement. he's a big character that's easy to hit with the pikmen. olimar's grab and fsmash out-ranges every move in snake's arsenal.(no pun intended)

need I go more? anyone care to argue against my reasoning?

EDIT: haha, not so good of a sig for this post is it?lol

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

He is a complete pain in the *** if you ever had to fight against a good one, like your sig suggests.

 

[messiahfreak2000]

as for sonic approaching pit, sonic has several options. if the pits is spamming arrows, depending on where said pit is, sonic can spin charge underneath the arrows and get in his face immediately, followed with a jump and any air move. course thats only one move.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic at a disadvantage against pit?
Sonic completely murder's Pit's ranged game of arrow usage and his Uair and Bair can actually beat out some of Pit's aerials.
granted Sonic can't gimp but he can pressure Pit to the point he can land kills via Uair or Fairing.

Sonic's speed and rolls DO somewhat negate pit's arrows, but that doesn't make him good against pit, that just makes pits arrows not good against him. True about the off edge pressuring

HOWEVER pit's priorty and range so completely overshadow's sonic's that it's not even funny. Pit simply has a much easier time killing sonic than visa versa

 

[KaShank]

Ivan, I've heard that Marth in fact has a good match up against Snake. Supposedly, when Snake gets air born he gets juggled endlessly by Marth and there's not really anything (not even air dodging) the Snake can do about it as long as your good enough with Marth. I've heard this from a few pros, but since I can't personally testify to it I would put it under disputed to be discussed some more.