Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Browny]

argh i spend like 2 days arguing my case as to why i think Lucario has an inherent advantage over MK, it gets changed to lucarios advantage and then a few hours later its changed back to disputed after one claim of 'MK has kill moves'

well guess what, so does lucario

Lucario kills earlier, he can survive longer, he cant be WOP'ed, he does more damage, has more range, an incredibly powerful projectile and MK has no decent vertical KO moves to deal with Lucarios floatiness below like 140%

---

lol @ dedede. how the mighty have fallen. now that people have figured out how to punish his recovery and get past the mere nuisance that is his waddle dees, hes lost many of his advantages.

 

[Gleam]

>.> Sonic can run in, turn around when GDorf starts to attack, and run back in with an attack before GDorf stops lagging.

Sonic has just as much reach in his Bair as GDorf does, and can do it out of a crazy fast spin dash.

GDorf's Bair is FAST for GDorf, but mediocre speed overall.
-DD

And what happens when Sonic goes in for an attack before Ganondorf uses a laggy attack. As I've said before, Ganondorf>Sonic in Reach and Priority. Sonic has terrible Knockback, reach, priority. Even his Smashes don't do good unless the foe has high damage.

Sonic has to attack at some point.

Now let's say Sonic DOES get Ganondorf at a high enough damage. Than this Hit-Run strategy would work a bit better because now Sonic can put some knockback into this Hit-Run strategy.

Now Sonic can edgeguard Ganon pretty easily, that's true. At the same time, unless sonic can put Ganondorf far enough out (Which once again goes for the negatives of Sonic's knockback) Ganondorf can actually return back pretty easily.

Sonic can't edge grab, or at least not without risking a B-forward or B-up. Thus leaving him at the edge.

Also, can you clarify what "Spin dash" you're talking about.

 

[KingofCereal]

I disagree that MK has the advantage over ZSS. the range and speed of almost all of her attacks is greater than most of MK's.

 

[DarkDragoon]

-.- When making these kinds of Match-Up Lists, as I've basically stated before, we need to examine the characters as they would be played at their highest current Metagame.

At such a level, Sonic would dismantle Gannondorf.
The spin dash is Sonics B> and Bv Move, which is wicked fast, and can be jump canceled...kinda...into an aerial, making for effective combos ending with a BAir, or in other words, a kill if near the ledge.
Sonic can throw, Spin dash combo, and then edge hog, spring gimp, or just anticipate a landing and meet it with an FSmash.

Sonic can SO edge grab, because if he does it with close enough timing, he gets invincibility frames, or if you're too far down or far away and misjudge it, you miss and fall and die. Besides, if he gets you down one stock already, he might as well jump INTO the B> just to kill you, effectively reducing one form of recovery.

I mean, Gannondorf's longest reaching move is his FTilt, iirc, and sonic can just dash and short hop behind him, of the FTilt, and then BAir or DSmash on landing.

Sonics Speed > Gannondorf's power. Sure, if the match drags out too long, Gannondorf will probably win, but hes too slow for it to work.

-DD

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly i said from the start that Dedede is overrated?

He has like only a handful of really good moves. I honestly think he gets by due to to his weight and his recovery.

If Marth has advantage on ZSS, I KNOW MK does.

She has the range thanks to her forward b. She doesn't not have him in speed. I don't know why you would say that KingofCereal. No one can compete in terms of attack speed with MK, although some characters are close.

Anyway, MK can gimp her hard just like the majority of the cast. Once he gets in the pressure is on. Although her dair lets her get out of juggle situations much more easily then the majority of the cast. Also ZSS sucks at killing. Really she does and MK will actually be killing her sooner thanks to his gimping.

Overall he is just the better character with more tools.

 

[IvanEva]

They are JUGGERNAUT frames. NOT superarmor.
A Bair from sonic WILL knock Snake out of his recovery.

Whoa, I feel like a fool for asking this but there are Juggernaut frames in brawl? Err, wait. What's a Juggernaut frame? In Marvel vs. Capcom/Super Heros/etc. "Super Armour" was the ability to take a hit without flinching/knockback (unless it was an extremely powerful one). It too two hits to move Juggs/Hulk/Sent.

I take it that in Brawl, from what I can gather, Capcom's Super Armor is "Juggernaut frames" and this new 'no knockback but damage still incurred' thing is what's called "Super Armour"? True/false? I know that this is probably the wrong place for this but I'm curious regardless. Why would Sonic's one hit back air (err, it is one hit, isn't it?) be able to knock Snake out of it?

Then explain to me how I regularily beat or come close to beating snakes far far better than me with my Pit.

This will be easier to discuss if you can write out a bit about how you played him that made him beat Snake. What did you use? What worked and what didn't? I'm guessing you shot him with a million arrows?

The reason why the japanese brawlers are able to make tier lists at this point is because... *several reasons*

That or they've just had the game for a month longer. That being said, do you have any links to said Japanese communities and such. I can only read a tiny little bit of Japanese but perhaps I might find something nice in there. I'd like to see their tier lists, that's for sure.

Spot dodge to Dsmash can knock Snake away and force him below the edge making it easy for Falco to grab him and ruin his recovery attempts.

Wouldn't a Snake take a C4 hit instead of ever being within grab range of the edge? (I've got no experience with this so it's just a humble thought - nobody I play with has yet to do the whole 'grab Snake during his up-B' thing so I haven't had to adapt to that)

Can someone explain to me why Diddy is at a disadvantage against Charizard?

What a stupid thing to ask! Seriously, dude! Did you not play the Subspace Emissary!? Didn't you see how Diddy got his *** handed to him by Rayquaza? Dragons > Diddy!

Seriously though, I'm not terribly sure. I'm guessing a combination of range (although I'd think that Diddy's speed would nullify that), flamethrower keeping Diddy at bay (although I can't really see it working that well either), and Diddy's weaker Smashes coupled with Charizard's weight making Charizard a difficult character to knock out. I'm just guessing though, I really have no clue. Can anobody else shed some light here?

Ivan, the more this goes on the more I agree with you. I'm sure that there will be some completely unexpected match-ups for some random reason that would almost be impossible to predict, but for the most part I'd say your zeroing in on a fairly accurate list. Good job ^_^

Any "good jobs" must go to the people filling it out. I just plop in the information (with, I'll admit, my own judgement on which side is most convincing).

To the thing about Pika > Snake:
Really? 80%? This seems pretty big. Let's see if the rebuttals can address that.

i've been waiting so long for someone to do this but u made ike look like a wuss

No, YOU made him look like a wuss. Rather, you haven't been defending him enough to prevent his non-wussy status from coming out... assuming that he isn't at a disadvantage to all of those characters. Start arguing why he isn't so that we can all (or at least one of us) learn something from it. Those arguments will have to be pretty solid though...

However, I still hold firm that no amount of tier list or matchup charts could change the fact that the better skilled player win.

If that wasn't the case I would have dropped Brawl long ago (err, "long" ago). Match-ups and tiers are always assuming that the players are of equal everything, including skill, except character. Although, if you want a good negative example of such a situation, try out Roll vs. Cable in Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Skill? Who needs skill?

Sonic can't edge grab, or at least not without risking a B-forward or B-up. Thus leaving him at the edge..

I can't remember: does Ganondorf's forward B kill him or his victim first? Secondly, does his up B beat out Sonic's spring? I can't really see Sonic having to use edgegrabbing to stop Ganondorf when his back air would do a better and safer job of it. It's not like Ganondorf can just recklessly throw out aerials when he's over the ledge.

I disagree that MK has the advantage over ZSS. the range and speed of almost all of her attacks is greater than most of MK's.

Metaknight wins in the air, his playground. How is she going to land a killer when he's all over her? Her aerials will be beaten by his disjointed sword and her forward B is too slow to hit a pressuring Meta. As well, he can edgeguard her fairly easily. His aerials are great for "carrying" her over the edge and his aerial manuverability can guarantee that he always grabs the ledge to stop her tether. Of course, I play as neither so... anybody else?

To the MK vs. Lucario guy: My apologies for constantly changing that match-up bit both sides are arguing pretty nicely. By the sounds of it it's probably equal. It'll be 'debated' until both sides can agree (I'm rooting for a neutral myself).

EDIT: If you post something but it gets ignored/looked over please reword and repost (or just let me know). I usually read a page or two at once all the while replying so I sometimes miss some posts or forget to change match-ups. As well, if you find any consistancy errors in the chart (like Marth > Yoshi but Yoshi = Marth for example) please let me know post haste. It's a big chart and it's easy to botch things (I say this because I've come across a few ).

EDIT 2: My constant replying is killing my time so I'll be replying less from here on out (but reading more ).

 

[Juggalo]

I'd like to see their tier lists, that's for sure.

Their tier list gets changed weekly, and we already have a person who translates it and updates a post on smashboards.



Also, in a month, I think we'll be just as dumbfounded on a tier list as we are now. But thats my pessimistic opinion

 

[Undrdog]

I just want to restate the Pit >>>> Wolf. lol

 

[IceEmblem]

This chart does justice, i would have to say that R.O.B. and King DeDeDe are neutral.

 

[Browny]

Sonics b-air knocks snake out of his cypher.

there is no question about it

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Sonic's at a disadvantage to DK? And there's a question about bowser?

Bigger and Slower characters are his bread and butter. I'd imagine those would be easy matches for Sonic. Can someone explain?

 

[Browny]

bowser, id say yes. its kind of interesting though, i went against my brother using DK yesterday and i 0-death comboed him without getting touched so fast he reset the game lol, but then after that he knew what tactics i used and managed to beat me overall (3 stock). So in a situation where the opponent has no idea what your playstyle is id say sonic has a big advantage, otherwise DK is probably better.

 

[Vaul]

As a player of Sonic and DK myself (immensely underrated characters FTW), I'd have to put this has an even matchup. In Sonic's favor, DK is basically a giant punching bag. His immense frame and somewhat slower physics is a Sonic pipedream; I cannot stress enough the trouble DK has with small fast characters (Squirtle is the manifestation of DK's nightmares). With no projectile game for DK, Sonic doesn't have much to worry about in the approach. Once Sonic gets in melee range, he should control the fight. But of course, DK is no pushover. He's heavy. Really heavy. KO's for Sonic will be tough. As far as gimping goes, DK's Spinning Kong has INSANE priority, range, and some SA frames. He will be more difficult to gimp than others. DK has got some solid defenses going for him. Spinning Kong, DK Punch, Ground Pound (which can REALLY frustrate any Sonic player), and his long rage tilts are all to be feared. As far as Star KO's go, DK should have no problem taking out Sonic at somewhat higher percents thanks to his array of fast KO moves. So while Sonic has got superior speed, recovery, agility, combo ability and air game, DK's got the superior strength, weight, KO ability, range and ground game. This will almost always be a solid matchup when both players have got what I like to call "skill".

 

[Aminar]

Arrows, Glideing to avoid ledgeguards, Side B traps, Blowing up his mines, reflecting stuff while approaching, stopping grenades etc. I wrote my reasons earlier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean when I see Snake vs Pit, I see Marth vs Pit all over again.

Get past the arrows then Pit is in trouble since is he is outranged, outprioritized, and overpowered.

 

[Undrdog]

I mean when I see Snake vs Pit, I see Marth vs Pit all over again.

Get past the arrows then Pit is in trouble since is he is outranged, outprioritized, and overpowered.

Pit counters Snake... You do know that right? Remember, Pit isn't just a bow. Snake's B set is useless against Pit. Pit's faster the Snake is. Pit can blow up the C4 in Snakes face with and arrow. Same goes for the mines. Has a far better recovery that can't be gimped if the Pit actually knows what he's doing. I could go on and on.

This is easily Pit's easiest match-up.


Seriously though, in order to understand Pit you have to study the character. He's far too in depth to just tell you why. Pit would be a highly competitive character without the arrows.

Please at the very least click this link and watch UndrWorld 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2. This probably won't help much but at least maybe it will get people to think there's more to the character then arrows...
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=373FB416A25E4CD5

 

[ShadowLink84]

Whoa, I feel like a fool for asking this but there are Juggernaut frames in brawl? Err, wait. What's a Juggernaut frame? In Marvel vs. Capcom/Super Heros/etc. "Super Armour" was the ability to take a hit without flinching/knockback (unless it was an extremely powerful one). It too two hits to move Juggs/Hulk/Sent.

Yes exactly

Super armor frames however is when NO attack regardless of its priority/power will knock the character out of the movement.
For example teh beginning of Ike's ether is immune to Marth's FS.

However if Snake get **** by Marth's FS then he gets killed.

I take it that in Brawl, from what I can gather, Capcom's Super Armor is "Juggernaut frames" and this new 'no knockback but damage still incurred' thing is what's called "Super Armour"? True/false? I know that this is probably the wrong place for this but I'm curious regardless. Why would Sonic's one hit back air (err, it is one hit, isn't it?) be able to knock Snake out of it?

True. Sonic knocks it out because it has enough power behind it to break through the juggernaut frames. If he ahd super armor then Sonic's Bair would have no effect.

Wouldn't a Snake take a C4 hit instead of ever being within grab range of the edge? (I've got no experience with this so it's just a humble thought - nobody I play with has yet to do the whole 'grab Snake during his up-B' thing so I haven't had to adapt to that)

Doubt it. I find that C4 can only work as something more of a surprise and it can do more harm than good.

I can't remember: does Ganondorf's forward B kill him or his victim first? Secondly, does his up B beat out Sonic's spring? I can't really see Sonic having to use edgegrabbing to stop Ganondorf when his back air would do a better and safer job of it. It's not like Ganondorf can just recklessly throw out aerials when he's over the ledge.

The spring is actually better than the Bair. It hits the opponent back and allows Sonic to set up for an edge guard.
bairing doesn't last long while if your opponent tries to dodge the spring it is more likely to hit.'
Sonic also has invincibility frames during the ^B apparently.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Emblem Lord]

Undrdog: You can't blow up C4's. lol.

But ok I'll take your word for it. I know Pit is solid. I personally think he is overrated. That said he is one of my secondaries, I just feel like he was way overhyped when the metagame was first developing.

I'm not convinced Pit counters Snake though. Snake is just...so effin ridiculous. It's hard for me to believe that ANY character has an advantage vs him let alone counters him.

Also I know there is more to Pit then arrows. It's just that his range isn't that hot even with his double blades. And he lacks priority on quite a few of his attacks.

Also his moves are wierd. His f-smash is less of a kill move while his f-tilt is more of a kill move. But his f-tilt comes out slower then his f-smash. It's weird.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Also his moves are wierd. His f-smash is less of a kill move while his f-tilt is more of a kill move. But his f-tilt comes out slower then his f-smash. It's weird.

LoL at a Snake defender saying Pit's tilts are weird when Snake's tilts are just insane.

 

[Gleam]

I can't remember: does Ganondorf's forward B kill him or his victim first? Secondly, does his up B beat out Sonic's spring? I can't really see Sonic having to use edgegrabbing to stop Ganondorf when his back air would do a better and safer job of it. It's not like Ganondorf can just recklessly throw out aerials when he's over the ledge.

Though I am trying to prove Ganon's advantage, unfortunately for him, he's killed first when using his B-forward as a suicide. In a lot of character cases, Ganondorf seems to end up in a Sudden Death match. So in any case, I would even try a suicide on the last lives with Ganondorf, because even if he didn't die fist, Sonic would destroy Ganon in a sudden death match.

Sonic's spring doesn't really affect Ganondorf's recovery at all, and even more just gives his B-up back.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Spring knocks him to the side and down slightly.
Its supposed to interrupt and because Ganandorf's ^b sucks it doesn';t amtter if he gets it a second time if he's been knocked away from the ledge too much.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Forward B kills GDorf I think in EVERY match up but...another GDorf...
-DD

 

[Undrdog]

Undrdog: You can't blow up C4's. lol.

But ok I'll take your word for it. I know Pit is solid. I personally think he is overrated. That said he is one of my secondaries, I just feel like he was way overhyped when the metagame was first developing.

I'm not convinced Pit counters Snake though. Snake is just...so effin ridiculous. It's hard for me to believe that ANY character has an advantage vs him let alone counters him.

Also I know there is more to Pit then arrows. It's just that his range isn't that hot even with his double blades. And he lacks priority on quite a few of his attacks.

Also his moves are wierd. His f-smash is less of a kill move while his f-tilt is more of a kill move. But his f-tilt comes out slower then his f-smash. It's weird.

I feel stupid now. I knew it was a grenade that I blew up when I posted that too. lol

I thought you might've been one of those people who are always like "without arrows Pit doesn't have any moves". lol But yeah, with Pit you can't worry about stale moves. You just attack and hack away at your opponent. He/she'll die when they're ready. >_>

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.>...
Snake can just tilt Pit to death...and chase with his USmash to double as an edge guard...
Snake's Aerials have better reach and priority than Pit's...
I don't know why on Earth you think its a counter when you're incorrect in assuming Snake's best strategy revolves around his projectiles.

-DD

 

[Gleam]

Forward B kills GDorf I think in EVERY match up but...another GDorf...
-DD

I don't think Ganondorf has any matches that consist of him winning, and if there is, its very few. Ganondorf does however get a good amount of Neutral, or Sudden Death matches.

Also, while I was working it out, I found that at some points, in which say a character survived a Ganoncide, would die the next time when Ganondorf used it on a dfferent spot.

Ex. Say you used it on a character's upper body, like the head. The character would win. However, if you used it on lets say, the bottom part, near the feet, it would be a Sudden Death. This was true for vise versa in some charactes, attack near the feet, loss. Attack near the head, Neutral.

This makes me believe that there may be "sweetspots" for some characters when using Ganondorf's Flame Choke.

 

[Wolfang]

Wow, the chart has developed quite a bit since I've last seen it. Pretty accurate to, 'specially for
MK lol. I was always afraid of that little guy.

 

[Browny]

you underestimate sonics spring as a gimp lol. the idea isnt to use it during ganondorfs up-b, if you hit him with it at any time before he uses up b, it semi-spikes and doesnt reset anyones jumps. it knocks enemies away about the same distance as ganondorf's mid-air jump.

---

i did something interesting today. i played as sonic against my brothers Ice climbers and went all out to kill nana ASAP. it was amazing how easy it was. once i separated the two (which is a lot easier than in melee) i just juggled nana non stop and eventually KO'd her off the top with the spring + u-air before his popo could even land a single hit on me. every stock i managed to get rid of nana without taking more than 20% and it was all too easy from there on in. granted my brother didnt use the IC chain grab since i told him not to lol, but i dont think sonic is at such a disadvantage here with his ability to remove nana so quickly and efficiently.

Who else in the cast can consistently kill nana with 0-death combos?

 

[JJ259]

On the topic of lucario vs MK, I would definitely say that Lucario has an advantage, for a few real good reasons:

1. Range. Lucario out ranges MK on almost every move that he can use. This means that he can't be WoPed easily, he can't be juggled easily and, if spaced correctly, will be putting a lot more hurt on MK that MK can put on him.

2. Killmoves. Lucario's aura lets him get stronger the higher % he gets, duh. MK, other than 1 or 2 easy to spot and avoid kill moves lacks anything that would prevent Lucario from getting high. Once lucario is in the 90%ish range, he can kill MK at low %'s and he still won't be getting killed anytime soon. He can outlive and kill at a earlier time than MK can.


Like I said and like what's been said before, once Lucario gets roughly to 100%, he outdamages, outranges, outlives and kills earlier than MK. A lucario played properly will definitely have an advantage over a Metaknight.

 

[Browny]

lucario only has to be at 70-80% before hes outdamaging everything MK has
and if anyone forgot, as his aura gets stronger his aura sphere gains priority, A LOT. it goes through pretty much all MK's attacks, not too sure about the tornado though.

 

[Tsen]

here's our "in-progress" matchup thread for ZSS http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164587

 

[rumcoke]

How come Ike is at a disadvantage to most of the roster? I keep hearing he's a pretty good character.

 

[Nicktendo]

I disagree with alot of this chart and think its wrong in places for lots of characters, too lazy to bother to argue any points though

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

To be honest ive never played a good zero suit samus, but i believe mr game and has the advantage. Very little speed differnce, big weight differnce, but with good DIing, game and watch can live up to 160%. Most of Game and Watches moves out prioritize zero suit samus' with less lag. Not to mention a god-like recovery.

 

[Browny]

lol, your DI argument applies to every character. ZSS can kill G&W quite early on with side b and her u-air, one hit from that at around 100% and no amount of DI will save G&W. although G&W is still probably better, just like he is compared to everyone else...

 

[Tsen]

GW is arguably top tier. While we in the ZSS community place her in the high mid to low high, tier

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

i argue because he has all the match ups right except zamus. toon link and olimar definatately give Game and watch a run for his 2d money ive played too many of them to know. but in all honestly Game and Watch gives a paper cut to everyone else :D

 

[Tsen]

To some extent depending on the player i'd say so, but what are you gonna do when it comes down to suiciding bowsers and annoying wavebouncers, not only that but GW can be chain d-smashed by ZSS thus leading to an easy 50-85% each stock, so it really is debatable based on skill

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

To some extent depending on the player i'd say so, but what are you gonna do when it comes down to suiciding bowsers and annoying wavebouncers, not only that but GW can be chain d-smashed by ZSS thus leading to an easy 50-85% each stock, so it really is debatable based on skill

:-/ you wanna try me im willing to fight for my point

 

[Tsen]

wi-fi battles would do neither of us justice but like I said it's all on the players. Anyone can debate anything they like but honestly anything can happen. Not only that but brawl is arguably not a tourney game as well, any match-up could go either way. If you wish to argue go for it but no matter what this is all merely our opinion.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

oh there'll be some 2-D justice =))