Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Surri-Sama]

oh there'll be some 2-D justice =))

Actuall matchs dont seem to matter, they ignore insight on this thread for some reason, Pika<Pit

 

[IvanEva]

in my experiance Pika>Pit, i cant explane why

*Edited because I agree that the 300 reference was lame *

You can't complain that this thread lacks insight when you can't even back up your match-up claim with anything other than "I keep winning".

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Oh, I've chosen my words carefully Sirhc, perhaps you should have done the same.

Sirhc: "This is blasphemy! This is madness!"

Madness!? THIS IS SPARTA! *kicks Sirhc and his "insight" down a well*

hooray for overused pop culture references that are completely killing the source material!

 

[ROOOOY!]

Originally Posted by Tsen
These are probably my 2 best characters so this part should be easy enough to write I hope haha. Everyone has their own Peach approach but for the most part you're going to be dealing most with glide tosses and auto-float combo's or just attacks.

Because ZSS's grab can snag opponents out of air, dealing with auto-float approachers shouldn't be a problem just keep your space and either grab or side b them. You will see MANY glide tossed turnips during your match (from more avid Peach players) so definitely be wary of those and waiting with your own way of handling them in that respect.

Also note when you do throw a Peach and plan to follow up this, against most characters is one of her most dangerous positions. Once Peach is thrown you will almost always see the Peach player auto-float waiting for a follow up so they can proceed with the Peach dair to nair combo then land with the tables turned as they are now the pursuer and you are the prey.

Change up your recovery game! Peach has very few kill moves, as such you will almost always be killed by a sweet spotted u-smash, side smash, or by auto-float chasing you off the stage. Be careful of auto-float pursuers as her fair is powerful so if you're already off the stage you're pretty screwed if you get hit. Her bair and nair are fairly fast and have decent range as well. Your best bet is to either trick the player and get around them back to the stage or take advantage of the fact Peach loses her float once hit and plan accordingly (don't forget she has another jump after the float though!). Some players may choose to spam turnips once you're off the stage though, each player is different just be ready for any or all of these tactics just in case.

In summary, ZSS should be victorious. She has range, KO moves, and easily counters most Peach tactics Watch out for auto-floats, glide tosses and the very rare toad counter. Keep your range and wait for them to slip up, or take the offensive and don't even give them a chance to pick one turnip. Those are the main things to remember and try in this match-up.



Tsen's summed that up. The most important thing is the grabbing out of the air, where Peach is most dangerous. Advantage ZSS?

 

[Grandeza]

Why does Charizard have an advantage over Diddy Kong. I totally love that matchup(but that's not my reasoning for questioning this).

 

[Crystanium]

This would tell us absolutely nothing about real people.

I believe ssbbFICTION is correct on this, because CPUs have predetermined attacks. It tells us nothing of humans, because one human can be great with Pit, and another with Ganondorf. With two CPUs, one Pit, the other Ganondorf, we can see the strengths and weaknesses. In this case, Pit has the advantage of attacking from a long range. Ganondorf needs to be close in order to hit his target. If Pit falls off the cliff, he can return easier than Ganondorf. If Ganondorf's B neutral hits Pit, it's quite apparent that this attack is going to prove that Ganondorf's attacks are stronger than Pit's.

The chart is interesting, but it has problems of its own; it does not get into details. For example, it states that Zero Suit Samus (ZSS hereafter) has the advantage against Samus. I disagree with this assessment, as I have beaten players who play as ZSS while I was Samus. The thing it doesn't state is that Samus' attacks are stronger than ZSS' attacks. It doesn't state that ZSS' defense is weaker than Samus'. It also says nothing of Samus being slower than ZSS. Under what method are these determined? The chart is dependent on the tier list. The question is, has this chart considered the tier list?

 

[Emblem Lord]

-_-.

Wtf?

 

[Ants]

it states that Zero Suit Samus (ZSS hereafter) has the advantage against Samus. I disagree with this assessment, as I have beaten players who play as ZSS while I was Samus.

Well yeah, its possible to beat another player even if you are at a character match-up disadvantage. The chart is trying to depict which character would have the advantage in a match-up, not which character would win.

Samus may have some advantages over zero suit samus, and zero suit samus may have some advantages over samus. But overall, who has more/better advantages over the other? That is what the chart is trying to show.

 

[Crystanium]

Well yeah, its possible to beat another player even if you are at a character match-up disadvantage. The chart is trying to depict which character would have the advantage in a match-up, not which character would win.

Samus may have some advantages over zero suit samus, and zero suit samus may have some advantages over samus. But overall, who has more/better advantages over the other? That is what the chart is trying to show.

If we're going to ask who has the best advantage overall, wouldn't the tier list still be necessary?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yeah, but there is no tier list yet. Plus this chart is meant to be used to help form the list.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If we're going to ask who has the best advantage overall, wouldn't the tier list still be necessary?

He means which character would have the overall advantage in that particular matchup.
Tiers do not determine matchups, as tiers are just showing which characters are better overall, while matchups go on a case by case basis.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

isn't this chart kind of pointless?

i mean, does anyone remember, in melee, the "aerial cf vs. samus" against the "ground cf vs. samus" thing? where one falcon playstyle got ***** by samus and another completely dominated samus?

although i may be remembering things incorrectly, so someone set things straight if i am.

it just seems to me that setting the chart up in black and white, with terms like "advantage, neutral, and disadvantage" being our only qualifiers, is not going to be all that helpful.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Will the ignorance never cease?

Some play styles are far more effective then others. CF craps all over Samus when he plays the match-up using the most effective strats in that particular fight.

Also the chart is based on people using evidence and referencing match-up threads in the character boards.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Will the ignorance never cease?

Some play styles are far more effective then others. CF craps all over Samus when he plays the match-up using the most effective strats in that particular fight.

Also the chart is based on people using evidence and referencing match-up threads in the character boards.

aggressive fox vs defensive fox

go go gadget arrogant-response

 

[Dark Sonic]

The matchup chart assumes that both players are trying to use their characters most effective strategies in the matchup. If one strategy dominates the other character, then it doesn't really matter that other playstyles do badly, as all you have to do is use the dominating one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thanks.

And with that. VHG is added to my ignore list.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Thanks.

And with that. VHG is added to my ignore list.

and he sticks the high and mighty landing! the crowd goes wild! *ooooooooooooh aaaaaaaaah*

you're not better than everyone else. kill yourself.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah. Just better then you.

It's enough though.

It is enough.

Ok, NOW, I'm done responding to you.

Continue playing your ****ty Ivysuar that gets wrecked by Marth. haha.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, the ignorance still continues, Emblem Lord, because I fear that I might be ignorant. I think I understand what you mean by "match-up," but I humbly ask that you or anyone might offer an illustration.

I'll return later.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Nah. Just better then you.

It's enough though.

It is enough.

Ok, NOW, I'm done responding to you.

Continue playing your ****ty Ivysuar that gets wrecked by Marth. haha.

actually, i main snake.

want to play me?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dryn, there is no shame in ignorance.

The shame is in not acknowledging it.

You are on the path to enlightenment.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Oh now let's not go Gandhi on peoples ***** <_<

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

that's not going to work... he loves to pretend he has all the answers.

although, maybe we should let him act like he's some sort of prophet for the people... then assassination would be the appropriate course of action

 

[Gleam]

you underestimate sonics spring as a gimp lol. the idea isnt to use it during ganondorfs up-b, if you hit him with it at any time before he uses up b, it semi-spikes and doesnt reset anyones jumps. it knocks enemies away about the same distance as ganondorf's mid-air jump.

Whether it's before, or after Ganondorf's B-up, the spring really isn't going to affect Ganondorf's verticle recovery by much. Maybe at a higher damage it would. It does affect his horizontal recovery more than his verticle though. At the same time however, its not like the moment Sonic gets Ganondorf off the edge the first time, the spring gimp is automatically going to cause Ganon to have an impossible recovery. He's got to get Ganon kind of far of the stage.

Also, I said that Sonic wins when Ganondorf uses B-forward. Well it would seem that if Ganondorf uses it during the top part of sonic's body, maybe even close to his upper torso, it'll actually be Neutral, or Sudden Death.

I've even seen one time where Ganondorf actually won, but this only happened once and has yet to happen again, so I see no reason to really get into that at the moment.

 

[Undrdog]

VHG just shut up or change the subject. Your mere suggestion that this chart is worthless is just stupid. Of course it has usage and is accurate in many fields if completed correctly. In your examples a Defensive Fox and an Offensive Fox are both bad players. Playing Fox to his full potential, and any character for that matter demands a balance of the two and knowing when and where to use each facet of that character's abilities. This is why arguments like Gound Samus vs. Falcon mean nothing.

And on the Pit vs Snake issue, all you have to do is PowerShield one of Snakes tilts and he's ripe for the slaughter. In fact the biggest issue Pit has against Snake is his AAA attack. Everything else can be beaten by the sheer fact that Pit is faster then Snake and Snake can't use his projectiles to keep his opponent off-balance to make up for his lack of speed like he can against every other character in the game.

Snakes an amazing character, but a smart Pit player has the advantage. If you can't even see this as a possibility, then I suggest that you read more up on Pit. People don't seem to realize how in depth he is.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

VHG just shut up or change the subject. Your mere suggestion that this chart is worthless is just stupid. Of course it has usage and is accurate in many fields if completed correctly.

suck my ****. you really think a chart that only has three levels of distinction and doesn't consider different playstyles has THAT much use?

i never said it was a bad idea. i just questioned the implementation of the idea. now, go **** yourself. i don't need you to tell me what to do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not a matter of Pit lacking depth. It's a matter of Snake being ****ing ****** broken.

Also it's not super easy to power shield Snake's tilts. It's not like they are slow. But I will drop it. I can tell you're a little sensitive when it comes to Pit and the whole he is more then just arrows thing. lol.


I'll debate with you later Undr. If only to flex my muscles against someone worthy.

arrogance/

 

[Grandeza]

suck my ****. you really think a chart that only has three levels of distinction and doesn't consider different playstyles has THAT much use?

i never said it was a bad idea. i just questioned the implementation of the idea. now, go **** yourself. i don't need you to tell me what to do.

Hey you wana go act ******** somewhere else? No need to tutrn this into a load of flames. Just calm down man -_-

 

[xilez]

bowser > jiggly

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Hey you wana go act ******** somewhere else? No need to tutrn this into a load of flames. Just calm down man -_-

i like how I'M the one acting ********... i wasn't even talking to that guy until he started giving me commands.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Why?

(You should back up your statements with explinations. That's kinda how this thread works)

 

[Undrdog]

The fact is you're trying to derail this thread. I don't care what you have to say in your defense in that matter as there is no other reason for you to create a post saying that the fifty previous pages are all worthless. Whether it seemed like it or not it was just flame-baiting. If you couldn't foresee this fact before making your post I hope you see it now.

I'm not a mod... I'm not capable of doing anything more then express what my thoughts are. You come in here after having only been a member here for a month and decide to derail the conversation by defending a flawed view. Then you insult others instead of backing yourself.

Also I ask you don't use such lewd remarks towards other people. Again I'm not a mod but I don't take kindly to people using such ridiculous and unnecessary provocations and neither does the staff. Who, I might add have been alerted to your most recent posts in this thread.

And the reason why Grandeza said you were acting ******** was because you were. You can simply tell by how a person conducts oneself how intelligent they are and their intentions. Your defensive nature and disgustingly lewd comments shows you're either not capable of conducting a reasonable conversation or you're trying to provoke others. Either way it's not wanted here.

I'm done conducting this conversation with you. If you wish to rebut do it via PM. Anything here will be noted and duly ignored.



Anyway, perhaps I need to fight more Snakes, but to be completely honest I can't see how he can defend against a PowerShielded attack. I've been beating Metaknights using this method and he's one of the fastest attackers in the game.

 

[Gleam]

whoa whoa whoa! No need to bring insults in. This is just a character match-up thread. No need to bash each other over a game and who beats who.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

The fact is you're trying to derail this thread. I don't care what you have to say in your defense in that matter as there is no other reason for you to create a post saying that the fifty previous pages are all worthless. Whether it seemed like it or not it was just flame-baiting. If you couldn't foresee this fact before making your post I hope you see it now.

I'm not a mod... I'm not capable of doing anything more then express what my thoughts are. You come in here after having only been a member here for a month and decide to derail the conversation by defending a flawed view. Then you insult others instead of backing yourself.

Also I ask you don't use such lewd remarks towards other people. Again I'm not a mod but I don't take kindly to people using such ridiculous and unnecessary provocations and neither does the staff. Who, I might add have been alerted to your most recent posts in this thread.

And the reason why Grandeza said you were acting ******** was because you were. You can simply tell by how a person conducts oneself how intelligent they are and their intentions. Your defensive nature and disgustingly lewd comments shows you're either not capable of conducting a reasonable conversation or you're trying to provoke others. Either way it's not wanted here.

I'm done conducting this conversation with you. If you wish to rebut do it via PM. Anything here will be noted and duly ignored.



Anyway, perhaps I need to fight more Snakes, but to be completely honest I can't see how he can defend against a PowerShielded attack. I've been beating Metaknights using this method and he's one of the fastest attackers in the game.

look at you, all high and mighty. i wasn't trying to tell everyone in this thread that they were worthless posters and they should all just leave smashboards forever, i was simply questioning the implementation of the chart, which i have every right to do. go cry about it into your pillow, not to me.

this account is a month old, but i have been following the competitive smash scene for a years. i fell out of smash for a while and forgot my old account's password. sorry if the join date throws you off... because we all know how recently someone joined a community is a surefire way to tell how smart they are, right?

i'll stop using "lewd remarks" when you stop crashing into the middle of the thread and commanding me to "shut up" like your some superior of mine whom i've offended. who do you think you are? you keep telling me you know you're not a mod, but you're giving me directions and acting put out when i don't follow them. so, really, who do you think you are? just because your screen name is green doesn't mean you're above me in any way. at all.

"You can simply tell by how a person conducts oneself how intelligent they are and their intentions," huh? tell me, how intelligent do you think i am? really? fyi, my iq is at about 140-150 and i simply don't enjoy when people talk to me the way you did. go ahead, tell me i'm not using my iq correctly or something stupid like that. see if i care what you think, officer.

i was only questioning the accuracy of this thread's "techniques," which is completely within bounds and frankly, it should be encouraged. if you don't like it, tough. and if you don't like the way i talk to you, then don't speak to me in a way i don't like.

and sir, if you would please, stop derailing the thread.

 

[Kiwikomix]

VHG if you think that the matchup list is too narrow-minded than just leave the thread alone. No, that's not an order from someone who thinks he's high and mighty. It's a suggestion, because if you keep it up you'll just get on more ignore lists or get bant or some other thing. So don't go telling me to go **** myself.

Anyway... matchups?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

EDIT: **** it, it's not worth it.

 

[supercake]

I disagree with Lucas having a disadvantage vs pit. Pit's arrows can be absorbed by Lucas' magnet. Pit's recovery can also be easily gimped by pk thunder. Pit can reflect pkfire though, so I would say that is cloer to neutral.

 

[Undrdog]

Thing is, most Pits won't ever use their WoI as part of their recovery unless they have to. Pit's recovery is amazing without it, and if they do WoI they're beneath the stage making it difficult to hit with the PK Thunder. Arrow Chasing allows Pit to punish anyone who tries to absorb their shots. Add in the fact that most of my arrow shots hit my opponent from behind. Oddly enough Lucas' PK Magnet actually sticks out in front of him, making it even easier for Pit to avoid arrow absorption.

This may change for me however once Lucas players learn these things. I admit many of my matches against Lucas gave me the advantage because they kept trying those things. lol

 

[supercake]

Lucas' magnet absorbs from the front and the back, even though it sticks out in the front. Also the bsticked fire puts Lucas out of reflector range, so Lucas probably even a slightly better camper in that matchup. Pit has priority, but if ness is a pit neutral, so should lucas be.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Lucas' magnet absorbs from the front and the back, even though it sticks out in the front. Also the bsticked fire puts Lucas out of reflector range, so Lucas probably even a slightly better camper in that matchup. Pit has priority, but if ness is a pit neutral, so should lucas be.

they're not the same character... at all.