Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[VulgarHandGestures]

i can't imagine how you think olimar/sonic could POSSIBLY be even. i'd like to see what your reasons are, because i don't see how sonic could even touch olimar if the olimar player is allowed to play with at least one eye open.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i can't imagine how you think olimar/sonic could POSSIBLY be even. i'd like to see what your reasons are, because i don't see how sonic could even touch olimar if the olimar player is allowed to play with at least one eye open.

I've played decent olimars with my sonic before. It's nothing like you say. Sure olimar's got the range and power, but his attacks aren't fast enough to stop sonic from getting in and racking up damage.

now that that's out of the way, here's why it should be even.

in olimar's favour:
-more power
-higher priority
-larger range
-smaller size
-better defensive game

In sonic's favour:
-speed
-recovery
-better pressure game


(the weight of the charcter's about equal so that doesn't go into consideration.)

okay so by default, assuming no counter are in place, olimar's got the upper hand; however olimar can't throw pikmin at sonic. eliminating his major source of passive damage. Simply every move in sonic's repetoir will destroy all pimin attached to him, or any that missed him. Also, if olimar mises with a smash, sonic is fast enough to destroy the pikmin that gets left behind as part of the attack.
In addition to sonic making olimar wary of using a good chunk of his attacks lest he lose pikmin, a good sonic can actually put enough pressure on olimar to stop him from picking new ones. sonic is so fast he can keep olimar from bening on the ground long enough to pull extra pikmin if he wants. Obviously this is useful if sonic get's a lucky mass destruction of pikmin. An olimar with 0-2 pikmin is a sad sight and, so long as sonic can keep up the pressure, olimar will probably die before he can pick up new pikmin.
Finally, sonic can really easily gimp or edgeguard olimar's recovery attempts... take your pick.

Olimar still has the benifit of being all around better than sonic which is the only thing stopping sonic from being favoured in this matchup.

 

[Tom]

is there any prize for guessing correctly? some super awesome golden tier chart? if not, wow what are you people doing.

also, Sonic the Hedgedawg, you have a ridiculous name.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

is there any prize for guessing correctly? some super awesome golden tier chart? if not, wow what are you people doing.

also, Sonic the Hedgedawg, you have a ridiculous name.

it's a darn helpful visual aide if it ends up being correct and, also, a match-up chart does not a teir list make, silly. It's always nice to see who counters whom... that way you can pick your main and secondary(s) for optimal coverage.

the names not as out there as half the names here... but all right... I mean "soluble toast" that's my favourite so far

 

[Emblem Lord]

>_>

An accurate match-up chart DOES make a tier list.

 

[KaShank]

Can someone tell me the reasoning behind Ivysour having a good match up v Toon Link. I'm not doubting it, I just don't want to look through almost 60 pages to find it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

>_>

An accurate match-up chart DOES make a tier list.

NOT true... not true at all.

It's not just how many good matchups you have, but also who they are against. Even then, it's not just who beats who, but by how badly who beats who. A character who matches up slightly favouribly against nearly everbody would never be as good as a chacter who could utterly shut down any of the other top characters.

as for ivy.. I don't know, maybe it's because ivy has better range and his uair, usmash and Neutral B cancel out TL's normally good dair... still he's fairly easily edgehogged.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nope.

Whoever has the most good match-ups would be the best overall character which is what a tier list SHOULD aim to reflect.

Also the top tiers in any fighting game almost never have a mid tier or lower character that can shut them down.

If a character can utterly shut down all the top teirs then chances are that character is top tier themselves or just has a really good strat vs that group.

Which never really happens BTW.

But I will agree that how much of an advantage or disadvantage a character is in a match-up plays a huge role as well.

 

[renshai117]

This migh sound insane, but I'm just trying to help.

That being said, I think that players being of equal skill, sonic and wario should be equal. This is anecdotal, but I have a few friends who either main or second wario and I have recently picked up sonic. How badly I beat them seems indicative of our comparable skill level.

I say this due to the fact that sonic is very able to punish all of wario's smash attacks and is able to control the spacing of the fight quite effectively due to his speed. Sonic is also able to K.O. wario fairly well with his f-smash and at higher percentages with his d-smash.

Obviously, sonic is not better due to wario's rediculous weight, aerial movement, and power. I only argue that players of equal skill most likely will go back and forth should one focus their efforts on learning sonic and the other on wario.

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

This migh sound insane, but I'm just trying to help.

That being said, I think that players being of equal skill, sonic and wario should be equal. This is anecdotal, but I have a few friends who either main or second wario and I have recently picked up sonic. How badly I beat them seems indicative of our comparable skill level.

I say this due to the fact that sonic is very able to punish all of wario's smash attacks and is able to control the spacing of the fight quite effectively due to his speed. Sonic is also able to K.O. wario fairly well with his f-smash and at higher percentages with his d-smash.

Obviously, sonic is not better due to wario's rediculous weight, aerial movement, and power. I only argue that players of equal skill most likely will go back and forth should one focus their efforts on learning sonic and the other on wario.

It sounds to me that your friends aren't very good with Wario =(

 

[KaShank]

It sounds to me that your friends aren't very good with Wario =(

>_<
Beat me to it!

 

[Browny]

I'm pretty sure it's called...super armor?

*sigh*

im pretty sure its called... actually bothering to play as sonic and figure this out for yourself. dedede has super armour up until the peak, there is a period immediately before he reaches the peak before he can airdodge or continue with the up-b where his super armour disappears. it lasts for only about 1/4 of a second, but he can be kicked out of it every time. the reason you never notice this, is because sonic is the only character who can gain enough hieght quickly to punish it.



anyway after getting my *** repeatedly handed to me by my brother playing as pikachu as i cycled through my 8 mains (lucario, ness, zelda, lucas, Link, ike, marth. I only beat him once as toon link) I found my Sonic to be able to deal with his pikachu better than anyone else. With proper spacing and stutter stepping i was able to repeatedly fsmash pika out of thunder and his dsmash. considering how badly he beat all my other mains, its obvious pika is very good, and we are at about the same skill level but he noted that my sonic was the hardest to come up against and was raging pretty bad at the end after i beat him. In the same way marth can punish pikas dsmash with a well placed tipper, sonic can too with a stutter step. also sonic is one of the very few characters who can punish pika for missed thunders and dsmashes with running grabs for a free 18-27% damage with an upthrow.

I dont think Sonic is at a disadvantage here. one of pikachus greatest strengths is his almost lagless dsmash and thunder which is a huge threat to anyone who dares approach him, however that advantage is completely lost against sonic who can dash-shield grab pika out of just about everything. Its still probably favourable to pikachu overall since pika is just so hard to keep off the stage, but i dont think its enough to warrant a disadvantage. much closer to neutral than it is even coming close to sonic vs MK for example

 

[smasher91613]

I think an "=" sign works best for neutral... "+" for advantage and "-" for dissadvantage would work too... but I prefer the red x.

as long as you're here though, Ive made my suggestions for changing the sonic-olimar matchup to even and the zelda-marth matchup to marth's favour.... dos anyone have comments on this? I've given my reasons all stated earlier, but I can repost them if asked.

I'd also like to add that due to increased range, power and projectile ability, I find that link beats his cell shaded counterpart so, in short:

Zelda < Marth
Sonic = Olimar
Link > Toon Link

i think toon link is better but i dont think link is horrible like so many think now

 

[Gleam]

Once again I fail to see how Ganondorf has the disatvantage from Sonic. Sonic has speed and a great recovery, and a pretty darn good gimping ability. (At least from what I've seen) However, once again, Ganondorf has range, power, priority, damage, and weight.

I can say that it's not going to be as easy for Sonic to just run around and try and hit run strategy, as I've been seeing. Sonic's spring barely affects Ganondorf's recovery and his Sonic's aerials<Ganondorf's aerials.

Sonic has very little knockback, horrible priority, bad reach. All of his B-moves are pretty weak, and can easily be countered with a Flame Choke or Wizards foot. Except perhaps his B-up. Since Sonic's knockback is already low, and is now facing perhaps the 6th heaviest character in the game, he's going to have an even harder time getting Ganondorf off the edge. Ganondorf on the other hand only has to get about 4 simple hits on Sonic to get him off the edge depending on where he is.

But if anything I guess I should ask:

1. How does Sonic's spring negatively affect Ganondorf's recovery, because from my observation, it doesn't do much to Ganondorf's recovery.

2. What is the easiest way for Sonic to get the best knockback and get Ganondorf off the edge.

I've got nothing against Sonic, he's my second main, it just seems that Ganondorf's Pros outweight Sonic's Pros. and sonic cons outweight Ganondorf's cons.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i think toon link is better but i dont think link is horrible like so many think now

oh, of course toon link is the better of the two, but in a 1 v. 1 match, link has the advantage on toon link

 

[Browny]

But if anything I guess I should ask:

1. How does Sonic's spring negatively affect Ganondorf's recovery, because from my observation, it doesn't do much to Ganondorf's recovery.

2. What is the easiest way for Sonic to get the best knockback and get Ganondorf off the edge.

if you get hit with the spring, it semi spikes. it can trap you under the stage or send you even further away. anyone without a good recovery dies if it hits

Sonics bthrow has well above average knockback and actually begins to kill at around 140%. Also a properly timed d-air can semi spike and has huge horizontal knockback. considering how easy it is for sonic to grab ganon for every missed attack, if you just happen to be near the edge and he bthrows ganon at around 90% it should be enough to kill him with a properly timed edgehog.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's downthrow is also very good for getting people of the stage, and stutter step f-smash is a great punisher (with more range than just about any of Ganon's movese btw, so yes, it will reach him).

As for edgeguarding, Bair, up B, and dair are all really good edgeguarding attacks, along with the occasional homming attack. Personally I like going just barely out of their range and charging a side B (towards the stage) If they attack, I just jump cancel, fast fall and bair. If they try to recover above me, I let go, jump cancel and bair them anyway. If they go below, I jump cancel, and dair to semi spike them. Pretty effective.

 

[Raiko]

Since my last comment wasnt flamed... I'm trying to help again xD

Ike isn't on the upperhand agaisnt Luigi.

- Luigi's Fireballs are enough to hold Quick Draw approaches, one of the principal ways of approaching with Ike, Fireballs are easy to use in air, really annoying Ike if well used.
- Luigi has horrific air combo potential, Ike has only one move able to escape Luigi air combos, his nair, that isn't useful most of the time because of starting angles. That means Luigi can punish Ike in air with Upairs, connecting to any other airs.
- Luigi has sweet recovery, meaning he can block Quick Draws while trying to recover, getting hit, jumping, using Down B to go up, Side B and Up B, coming back to stage easily after killing Ike's recovery.
- It's not easy to hit Smashes on Ike with Luigi, because of Ike huge range over Luigi, but since they are really fast and powerful, you can punish Ike when trying to attack after avoiding a move (making him approach using Fire Balls?)
- Up B. Ike has huge post-delay in some moves, meaning he can be punished by Luigi's most strong move, the UP B. If Ike uses a counter and miss in mid-high %, or a eruption, or a FSmash, or some aerials, a smart Luigi will be fast and punish the Ike. A B sticking Luigi will do it even easier while running.
- Juggling potential. Luigi has an awesome Juggling potential, being able to connect it to aerials later. Works smoothly on heavy chars.

Thats it, I don't expect Luigi to be considered to be in the upperhand agaisnt Ike after that (because it looks I'm the only that thinks that) but at least the matchup should be revised, and considered neutral for now.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Since my last comment wasnt flamed... I'm trying to help again xD

Ike isn't on the upperhand agaisnt Luigi.

- Luigi's Fireballs are enough to hold Quick Draw approaches, one of the principal ways of approaching with Ike

That is not in any way Ike's best approach method. Ikes will mostly approach with nairs (when trying to close distances) and fairs (when trying to adjust their spacing). As an anti air approach he will be using RAR. Quickdraw is the least of your worries.

Fireballs are easy to use in air, really annoying Ike if well used.

Considering that Ike's aerials go through the fireballs anyway, this isn't really a problem. If you follow the fireball you get hit by his aerail. If you don't follow the fireball he just lands and tries again. No big deal.

- Luigi has horrific air combo potential, Ike has only one move able to escape Luigi air combos, his nair, that isn't useful most of the time because of starting angles. That means Luigi can punish Ike in air with Upairs, connecting to any other airs.

Or Ike can just DI out of your range and use fairs to retreat. Or he can airdodge since none of that stuff actually combos. Or he can dair since it outranges everything you have and lasts forever. Nair is not his best combo breaker dude.

- Luigi has sweet recovery, meaning he can block Quick Draws while trying to recover, getting hit, jumping, using Down B to go up, Side B and Up B, coming back to stage easily after killing Ike's recovery.

This is true, but it only hurts one method of recovery. Luigi has pretty much no way of dealing with Ike's aether, and Ike can also use his fair to swat at Luigi's attempts to edgeguard him.

- It's not easy to hit Smashes on Ike with Luigi, because of Ike huge range over Luigi, but since they are really fast and powerful, you can punish Ike when trying to attack after avoiding a move (making him approach using Fire Balls?)

Easier said than done, because Ike's primary approaches (nair and fair) are safe 90% of the time. Attempting to smash him after a missed nair will just get you jabbed or downsmashed (which is also very fast btw).

- Up B. Ike has huge post-delay in some moves, meaning he can be punished by Luigi's most strong move, the UP B

You realize that Ike will not be using his laggy attacks while trying to approach right? Ike will almost never use his f-smash ('cause f-tilt is just better), and he'll only be using up smash and downsmash to punish your mistakes. Uptilt is rarely seen, as is down tilt, so no openings there. Pretty much your only chance of getting that up B is if you shield a Quick draw or something.

If Ike uses a counter and miss in mid-high %, or a eruption, or a FSmash, or some aerials, a smart Luigi will be fast and punish the Ike. A B sticking Luigi will do it even easier while running.

Counter sucks. Ikes will not use counter in brawl, just like Roys didn't use counter in melee. Eruption is for edgeguarding only, and maybe a mindgame here and there. F-smash should never be used as f-tilt is faster, safer, and just as powerful as many other f-smashes. The only aerials with enough lag time to land an up B are bair (assuming you didn't auto cancel) and dair. You might be able to reach him after a uair, but why would he ever use that while you're below him?

- Juggling potential. Luigi has an awesome Juggling potential, being able to connect it to aerials later. Works smoothly on heavy chars.

Works smoothly on heavy characters that don't both outrange and out prioritize him if that's what you mean. Large disjointed hitbox here. Dair is more than enough to break out of uair juggles, and fair and bair beat everything else.

Luigi is at a disadvantage because Ike's disjointed range just shuts Luigis approaches down, and Luigi isn't good enough at camping to hinder Ike's approach.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Once again I fail to see how Ganondorf has the disatvantage from Sonic. Sonic has speed and a great recovery, and a pretty darn good gimping ability. (At least from what I've seen) However, once again, Ganondorf has range, power, priority, damage, and weight.

Sonic has good range with his dash grabs, homing attack, Ftilt, D tilt, Bair, Dauir and Uair.

I can say that it's not going to be as easy for Sonic to just run around and try and hit run strategy, as I've been seeing. Sonic's spring barely affects Ganondorf's recovery and his Sonic's aerials<Ganondorf's aerials.

Not really, when is Sonic going to fight to try and take on ganandorf directly?
Sonic's aerials are overall faster with very little delay and are easy to follow up by using the spring.

Sonic has very little knockback, horrible priority, bad reach.

Sonic's knock back is pretty good around 100% which isn't hard to gain.
his reach is pretty good so I cannot understand where you get this idea, especially considering his speed.
Horrible priority yeah its a pity. Uair and Dair are decent though.

All of his B-moves are pretty weak, and can easily be countered with a Flame Choke or Wizards foot.

What?
What would a sonic be doing to allow himself get caught in a wizard's foot or flame choke?
Sonic's are not going to take on Gdorf directly so that part of your argument has little relevance.

Except perhaps his B-up. Since Sonic's knockback is already low, and is now facing perhaps the 6th heaviest character in the game, he's going to have an even harder time getting Ganondorf off the edge.

D throw, B throw, Bair, Bair, Fair, Semspike Dair.

you make it sound like Sonic can't knock Ganandorf about at all?
You can easily kill Gdorf's at 50%.
Especially since his recovery is wrose than C falcon.

Ganondorf on the other hand only has to get about 4 simple hits on Sonic to get him off the edge depending on where he is.

Thisgoes for everyone against Ganandorf and yet many of them still hurt him badly.
Power isn't everything when most of your moves get punished half the time.
With Sonic this is no exception.

But if anything I guess I should ask:

1. How does Sonic's spring negatively affect Ganondorf's recovery, because from my observation, it doesn't do much to Ganondorf's recovery.

It knocks him back and away. the point isn't to be a dramatic effect but to gimp. Ganadorf's recovery is on par with Link's so even a little can ruoin him.

2. What is the easiest way for Sonic to get the best knockback and get Ganondorf off the edge.

Fair, Bair, Nair, D throw, B throw.

I've got nothing against Sonic, he's my second main, it just seems that Ganon

dorf's Pros outweight Sonic's Pros. and sonic cons outweight Ganondorf's cons.

Use Sonic more. you'll find he does very well against characters such as Ganandorf.
Sonic is supposed to control spacing and pressure, not fight directly which is somethingpeople seem to forget.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Can someone explain to me how Bowser has an advantage over Captain Falcon Rick Wheeler and how he has a neutral match-up with Yoshi?

I really don't know.

 

[IvanEva]

This isn't terribly in-depth but:

vs. Captain Falcon: Bowser's Fire Breath is very effective against a spacing Captain Falcon and his jabs and forward tilt swat Falcon away very easily. Bowser's superior range, priority and defensive options (forward tilt and Whirling Fortress are great for getting Falcon off of you) are more than Falcon's offense can take. Falcon's edgeguarding game is pretty good against Bowser, and his forward B helps tremendously against Bowser when Falcon is trying to get back on the stage. However, Falcon has a much harder time getting Bowser off of the stage than Bowser has getting Falcon off.

vs. Yoshi: Yoshi's eggs work fairly well against Bowser, as do back air approaches. Bowser's strong forward tilt, however, is a problem for Yoshi as is Bowser's forward air, which beats out Yoshi's aerials. In the end, Bowser's solid, strong hits are about on par with Yoshi's ability to combo him.

 

[xDarkElement]

Lmfao you cant be serious about marth + MK, i mean thats like saying their god tier, while their not.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Read the threads in the Lucas and Ness boards. Now, they have a serious disadvantage vs. every character that doesn't have a tether grab (or other slow grab).

 

[Xiivi]

Read the threads in the Lucas and Ness boards. Now, they have a serious disadvantage vs. every character that doesn't have a tether grab (or other slow grab).

NESSBOUNDER made a list testing each and every character on Ness. The following characters now having a glaring advantage on Ness:
DK, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Pit, Metaknight, Falco, Charizard, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Ice Climbers, Sonic, Bowser, Wario, Olimar, Lucas
So any of those matches that weren't already a disadvantage for Ness now are.
However, there's more, the following characters now simply get a decent boost against Ness, not super broken as with the previous characters, but it still poses as hurting Ness a lot:
Pikachu, Diddy, Peach, ROB, Wolf, Link, Toon Link
The remaining portion of the cast can only slightly punish Ness because of this luckily.

I suggest matches with the first batch of characters becoming a disadvantage for Ness immediately. With the second set of characters if Ness had the advantage it's neutral now, if Ness was neutral then it's a disadvantage now. Yep, consider Ness screwed. I can't wait to see how much Lucas' is screwed.

For Lucas it's certain that Marth, DK, and Fox get the glaring advantage against him, I'm sure there will be others once he gets all the characters tested against him.

 

[Fugue]

As for the marth updated part of the chart, in my opinion he has an advantage over lucario beacuse of his low % edgeguarding kills and lucario's easily punishable recovery. just doing a double fair or nair off the stage and then grabbing the edge will at most times get you a kill on him.

Why would Lucario go for the edge? Couldn't he just go for a wall cling/jump instead?

 

[jalued]

is it just me, or does MK seem a bit unbalanced...he only has one opponent which he doesn't completely own, and that is snake... thanks nintendo for making the game more balanced. not!

 

[Ornj]

DK>MK im very serious about tha, as long as the DK knows what hes doing
Diddy>MK
G&W>MK

Wolf>Snake
Pit>Snake

Pit>Wario
Lucas>Wario
Snake>Wario
Zelda>Wario
Dedede>Wario

Lucas>Ike
Pit>Ike
G&W>Ike
Dedede>Ike

G&W>Rob

my 2 cents

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^i don't think diddy >mk besides the bannans mk out reaches and has better priority then diddy and can gimp his recovery (i use to be a diddy main and had to try out diffrent characters to fight mk thats how i found i really like zelda)

 

[Gleam]

Sonic has good range with his dash grabs, homing attack, Ftilt, D tilt, Bair, Dauir and Uair.


Not really, when is Sonic going to fight to try and take on ganandorf directly?
Sonic's aerials are overall faster with very little delay and are easy to follow up by using the spring.

Sonic's knock back is pretty good around 100% which isn't hard to gain.
his reach is pretty good so I cannot understand where you get this idea, especially considering his speed.
Horrible priority yeah its a pity. Uair and Dair are decent though.


What?
What would a sonic be doing to allow himself get caught in a wizard's foot or flame choke?
Sonic's are not going to take on Gdorf directly so that part of your argument has little relevance.

D throw, B throw, Bair, Bair, Fair, Semspike Dair.

you make it sound like Sonic can't knock Ganandorf about at all?
You can easily kill Gdorf's at 50%.
Especially since his recovery is wrose than C falcon.


Thisgoes for everyone against Ganandorf and yet many of them still hurt him badly.
Power isn't everything when most of your moves get punished half the time.
With Sonic this is no exception.


It knocks him back and away. the point isn't to be a dramatic effect but to gimp. Ganadorf's recovery is on par with Link's so even a little can ruoin him.


Fair, Bair, Nair, D throw, B throw.

I've got nothing against Sonic, he's my second main, it just seems that Ganon

Use Sonic more. you'll find he does very well against characters such as Ganandorf.
Sonic is supposed to control spacing and pressure, not fight directly which is somethingpeople seem to forget.

I'm not indicating that Sonic has 0 knockback, but I think it is agreeable that his knockback is below average. Once again I'm pointing out that Sonic's low knockback, is already up against a heavy character.

Sonic's reach is pretty bad, perhaps not the worst, but defintely is down there on the lower end of the level. Ganondorf's reach, at least from most people, is average. (Sometimes below) So Sonic's is defintely lower.

Ganondorf has lag, that's for sure, however his execution speed is decently quick. These include F-tilt, down tilt, and Neutral A. All of which have ending lag, but are executed fairly quickly. Throwing random Flame chokes or Wizards foot certainly isn't going to get Ganondorf anywhere, but they do add as some excellent counters for Sonic's Down B and Forward B when not foolishly spammed.

His Aerials come even better. Only one has, and that's Fair. Dair too if you don't thunderstomp. The rest not only come out fairly quick, but have little to no lag at all.

But, I also think I will try out Sonic more.

 

[ROOOOY!]

DK>MK im very serious about tha, as long as the DK knows what hes doing
Diddy>MK
G&W>MK

Wolf>Snake
Pit>Snake

Pit>Wario
Lucas>Wario
Snake>Wario
Zelda>Wario
Dedede>Wario

Lucas>Ike
Pit>Ike
G&W>Ike
Dedede>Ike

G&W>Rob

my 2 cents

Is going to have no effect on the chart if you don't give any reasoning whatsoever.

 

[PKSkyler]

hahaha looks like as an Ike player Ill only have an advantage on about 5 characters and the rest be at a disadvantage or neutral ,makes no sense though, Ive probably beaten a strong human character of everyone on the chart(cept Snake, **** him!)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've played decent olimars with my sonic before. It's nothing like you say. Sure olimar's got the range and power, but his attacks aren't fast enough to stop sonic from getting in and racking up damage.

now that that's out of the way, here's why it should be even.

in olimar's favour:
-more power
-higher priority
-larger range
-smaller size
-better defensive game

In sonic's favour:
-speed
-recovery
-better pressure game


(the weight of the charcter's about equal so that doesn't go into consideration.)

okay so by default, assuming no counter are in place, olimar's got the upper hand; however olimar can't throw pikmin at sonic. eliminating his major source of passive damage. Simply every move in sonic's repetoir will destroy all pimin attached to him, or any that missed him. Also, if olimar mises with a smash, sonic is fast enough to destroy the pikmin that gets left behind as part of the attack.
In addition to sonic making olimar wary of using a good chunk of his attacks lest he lose pikmin, a good sonic can actually put enough pressure on olimar to stop him from picking new ones. sonic is so fast he can keep olimar from bening on the ground long enough to pull extra pikmin if he wants. Obviously this is useful if sonic get's a lucky mass destruction of pikmin. An olimar with 0-2 pikmin is a sad sight and, so long as sonic can keep up the pressure, olimar will probably die before he can pick up new pikmin.
Finally, sonic can really easily gimp or edgeguard olimar's recovery attempts... take your pick.

Olimar still has the benifit of being all around better than sonic which is the only thing stopping sonic from being favoured in this matchup.

so, I guess I forgot to ask, does anyone agree with this? I haven't met a whole lot of sonics, so I don't know how others are faring here.


... my other two cents were that Link beats toon link in a 1 v. 1 normally assuming they are equally sikilled and that Marth has an advantage over zelda.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I agree with Sonic having an even match against Olimar, and with Marth having an advantage over Zelda. I don't know enough about TL and Link to comment on that matchup though.

 

[hizzlum]

are there any hard counters in brawl? it seems that being a more balanced game i really dont see many matches in one characters favor, although there are exceptions like marth vs earthbound, can someone tell me any more?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree with Sonic having an even match against Olimar, and with Marth having an advantage over Zelda. I don't know enough about TL and Link to comment on that matchup though.

wel, unfortunately, the toon links which I play against are at a slightly lower to much lower skill level than me, so I can't weigh completely evenly on the subject.

But, even though toon link is better against most characters than link is, link outranges him in hand to hand on almost all moves, his grab outranges toon link and all his projectiles are faster, travel farther and/or are more powerful. While toon link has the clear advantage in recovery, Link can out camp toon link any day of the week, and is normally better in hand to hand combat with his stronger, longer reaching moves... toon link can get some shots in, but is more easily KOd than his bigger counterpart is.

the problem is, link can beat toon link at his own game, and toon link doesn't have anything else to fall back on in this particular matchup.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^A match being in a character's favor does not nessecarily mean a hard counter. It could be anywhere between a very slight advantage and a Shiek vs Bowser super hard counter (melee reference.)

I think Sonic vs Ness also just became a hard counter now that we know he's got the chaingrab on Ness as well.

 

[hizzlum]

^^A match being in a character's favor does not nessecarily mean a hard counter. It could be anywhere between a very slight advantage and a Shiek vs Bowser super hard counter (melee reference.)

I think Sonic vs Ness also just became a hard counter now that we know he's got the chaingrab on Ness as well.

I dont care for any soft counters, I just wanted to known any matches that are extremly tilted in one characters favor, like a 9/1 or 8/2

What thorw with sonic becomes a chain grab?

 

[Dark Sonic]

You just let them break out and you can grab them again. Actually, a lot of characters can do this, so Ness will get hard countered by a lot of characters. Lucas too (though fewer characters can do it to him and most aren't infinites but just chaingrabs).

Marth has got 8-2 on Ganondorf. I'm sure you'll find some if you just look through some character matchup threads in the character specific forums. Particularly the characters considered...good.

 

[Gishnak]

This would be really cool if this image was a flash object or something of that sort, and each box you could click to see educated reasons as to why which character has an advantage over another (or there is no clear advantage). Maybe one day all that information will be compiled..