Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Seikishidan Soru]

Basically, the purpose of NADT is to make it impossible to buffer airdodge and thus improve strings, force people to utilize other options beside spamming AD, etc. It makes airdodging impossible in the tumble state, which isn't an actual issue because of wiggling, but people really hate it.

What I'm proposing is simply making the game ignore buffered airdodges. More like how you get punished for mistiming techs than meteor smashes. You would be able to airdodge as soon as you were out of hitstun, but spamming shield wouldn't be as effective as actually properly timing it. Plum suggested a punishment for early attempts, but I'm starting to wonder if that would have unintended effects on the tech window.

My way, only 5 frames of the tumble state would be affected, and it wouldn't be possible to wiggle out of that. It would be a lot less weird than NADT but still require smarter play.

I can totally get behind this idea, and I'm even ashamed of not having thought about it myself. I've played enough SoulCalibur to know what a buffer lock is, dammit. :V

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok, now that the airdodge during tumble situation is pretty much covered....

let's actually figure out how to code it.

mirite? :D

 

[Dantarion]

http://www.mibbit.com/pb/9WsBRn - All characters ledgegrab range. Thanks to PW for figuring it out, kupo for telling shanus, and shanus for posting how to find it


Now that we can fix the ledgegrab range, can we maybe give some characters a bit of their autosnap back?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

" W:\brawl_hax\brawl_dump\fighter\purin\Fitpurin.pac
##########################################
##########################################
# Misc Data
##########################################
Ledgegrab Min Distance Below:8
Ledgegrab Distance Window:16
Distance window after minimum distance below edge?:16


"

what exactly does this mean in layman's terms? -__-

 

[Alphatron]

It means that Jigglypuff has massive ledge grab range for her miniscule arms.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

no i mean like,

##########################################
Ledgegrab Min Distance Below:8
Ledgegrab Distance Window:16
Distance window after minimum distance below edge?:16"

what do ledgegrab min distance below, ledgegrab distance window, and distance window after minimum distance below edge mean???

 

[Dantarion]

Those are basically the terms PW used when he posted about it in the big PSA thread.
We need to test the values to see exactly what does what.

 

[MK26]

hmmm...just looking at the numbers, it doesnt seem like theres much derivation between characters...

i guess the reason why it seems some characters have such huge range probably depends more on the positions of their bones during their up-bs, not necessarily these ranges

 

[Dantarion]

MK26 is right.

The reason ganon's range is broken has to do with his animation and the way he stretches out his arm towards the end, not so much the grab distance.

 

[Alondite]

Though his grab distance is still pretty far on top of that...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

or perhaps why jigglypuff has ridiculous ledgegrab ranage during her side b?

yeah, that does make sense. Perhap that's part of the reason why fox and falco have such bad ledgegrab range after their up bs; they are basically streamlined, and compact, with nothing outstretched.


or am i very wrong? X(

 

[Plum]

It wouldn't be fair for me to take all the credit for the idea. I credit Naucitos with bringing it up in our convo earlier. I'm just dressing it up, making it look pretty, adding 5 frames of hitstun and possibly an aspect of punishment for AD spam as per plums idea.

Plums idea is really cool too, its gonna come down to what is possible. If everything can be incorporated without it intefering with tech windows that would be awesome.

My idea is completely based off of the "perfect world" situation. I wouldn't assume that it is really feasible, but then again the coding scene has come a long way. At the same time of course there's the fact that as far as B+ coding has come its also lost so many key members; and those around still have lives.

As far as your (and Naucitos) idea, I think it would work well. The way I see it, spamming airdodge is still a perfectly viable way to get out of a string. However by default the game will not allow you to do so for X amount of frames. Assuming wiggling is still possible in those X frames then it does reward the better player for being able to airdodge before X frames pass. It would also put more importance on other options because human error still factors into your ability to wiggle before X frames. Jumping and attacking out of tumble still become better options, when wiggling is still needed for the fastest possible use of an airdodge.

Personally I just feel that there should be higher risk on the line if you rely on spamming airdodge. My idea basically gets rid of spamming airdodge in any form, because when you do you are directly punished and practically forced to use a different option instead, or wiggle your way out as soon as possible. On the grand scheme of things both ideas are going to accomplish the same goal though, just depends on which path you choose to take, or more likely what is even possible (which would boil down to your idea I suspect :V).

I do feel like your idea is certainly more user friendly though, which is another bonus to it. NADT doesn't seem to have that "user friendly"-ness to it which is a shame, because I thought it was a great addition competitively... even if some competitive scenes out there (Las Vegas for example) dislike it.

 

[skstylez]

is samus not getting bomb explosion on contact? Also bomb animation cancels??

 

[[TSON]]

It only JUST became codeable. Idk if it's going in but Shanus made it literally yesterday lmao

 

[Yeroc]

Done and done. Will be out before too long.

 

[JCaesar]

I don't see why it wouldn't go in. Unless the current way it's set up isn't balanced or works oddly or something, but that could be fixed.

As cool as that is, I think letting Link blow up his own bombs (i.e. bomb jumping) is even more crucial. I can't wait for some coding sorcerer to get that working.

 

[Plum]

I don't see why it wouldn't go in. Unless the current way it's set up isn't balanced or works oddly or something, but that could be fixed.

As cool as that is, I think letting Link blow up his own bombs (i.e. bomb jumping) is even more crucial. I can't wait for some coding sorcerer to get that working.

Oh YES.
Link would definitely be set with bomb jumping.
Nothing shows sexy Link skills better than showing Snake how REAL men recover.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, you guys certainly have your plate full...take your time, code stuff when you can, and happy new set in the next couple months? D:

 

[Alphatron]

Link should get bomb jumping indeed. Then the knockback of aerial UpB may not be so necessary.

*prepares post on EZ mode, depth, etc*

Seriously though. Link's bomb already has a hurtbox too iirc. Link just can't hit it himself.


...Maybe I'm wrong and it has no hurtbox, just a hitbox.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

now, can other people hit the bomb with a sword or something and hit it, or does the bomb have to hit a body for it to explode?

 

[Shadic]

As far as I know, everything/everybody except for Link can hit his bombs.

 

[Swordplay]

@ topic.

Yea Link would love it. Actually it would be cool on TL as well too if coded right. What if at high percents TL thew a bomb down and then dair'd into the bomb in order for it to explode him higher or be used as a nutty stall tactic for mindgames. That would be lolz

 

[Alphatron]

It would be hilarious. Unfortunately TL's recovery is way too good.

 

[camelot]

Hah, Toon Link could practically fly with bomb jumping.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

No offense ot veril, but I think I am starting to like Plum's idea better the more I think about it. Mostly ebcuase there is already a mechanic like it in brawl, which means it will be easier to explain to people.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

hm...


+1 for Plum's idea...

 

[JCaesar]

I think Plum's suggestion is the most elegant and intuitive solution, but I don't know how feasible it would be to code. Having a fail window for airdodge would be great though.

Now that I think about it (ok, this might sound a bit extreme but bear with me), I wouldn't be opposed to having a fail window for every option out of tumble, excluding wiggling. This way, the best option to escape strings would be good timing and knowledge, but the safest option would be to wiggle and stop tumbling. It's a nice dynamic, it would greatly reward experience and practice, but it wouldn't prevent casual players from mashing to their hearts' content and it would still be intuitive.

In case anyone missed Plum's suggestion, a fail window just means that if you press it a little too early, then you are punished by being unable to do it again for a certain number of frames. It effectively prevents mashing.

 

[Swordplay]

No TL wouldn't get bomb jumping.

He could just throw a bomb down and pogo off it LOL

 

[Veril]

I take no offense at people preferring Plum's suggestion. The problem with it is that the tech window already is timing based, and altering the mechanics behind how shield inputs are read during hitstun in the manner required for that fix could very likely interfere with the 15 frame input window for techs.

OK, I am posting my planned initial alterations for throws. The first phase of gathering all the throw formula and hitstun is nearly complete. I will then optimize them based on both how the animation looks and bring all of the throws up to an acceptable level. I will then proceed to determine high% combo and kill potential of throws. That will allow me to create the most idea throw game. I aim to nerf nothing, assuming hitstun at .46, unless a serious CG is present (ICs are an exception to this principle as we have already altered their desynch). I am approaching this from an objective, data based perspective, to remove personal bias from the process. The changes will not be omgwtf alterations, if a throw has been nerfed I will attempt to determine the exact minimum required fix so as to have no overly nerfed options (see CF d-throw ;p )

My exact proposed methods for altering individual throws are subject to change if I see a more ideal approach (there are several ways I could improve Link's throws for example, and they are substantially more tricky than one would imagine). This sort of waffling will be minimal, I can assure you. When I am done, we will have an extremely solid and well understood system which will bring us far closer to the goal of a "gold set".

The thread with the data and proposed changes is linked in the welcome wagon thread, but it is buried under closed threads, active discussions, etc. I update it EVERY DAY and welcome dialogue with players extremely familiar with their characters options in B+ (a lot of technical knowelege and experience is required to really understand what I'm doing. Its very hard for me to overstate the complexity of what I am attempting). Nonetheless, I am making everything public so that the whole process is open, transparent, and subject to peer review (the cornerstone of successful data based endeavors). Check it out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257152 it is completely worth your time.

 

[Plum]

Well its certainly great to see that there's some support for my tumble idea!
I do have to be a realist here though; who knows if it would ever even be possible to code something like that. Also, as Veril says there's no idea that it doesn't create problems elsewhere.

Perfect world though, I would love to see a system like that, and I'm glad some others approve.

 

[shanus]

I'd like to just comment on it. Making a "fail" mechanic for pressing too early would be incredibly difficult because you'd have to actually program a terminal window into hitstun unless a simple idea pans out.

The simple idea would be that you would:

Tumble State:
If Button Pressed: 3;
        Enable IASA with attacks, techs, jumps, hit ground, etc through like 8 020A0100 functions        
        Synchronous timer = 8 frames:
End If
Rest of Normal Tumble state (new subroutine is called which will enable ADing again)

However, if this didn't work, programming a manual window in to the hitstun actions (incredibly complex, nor do we know how to measure the end of it) would be veryyyy difficult.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Hey if Plum's idea is unfeasible I still think that Veril's idea is a great fix.

 

[Veril]

If that simple idea pans out I will have to bake plum a cake or something. If not, I will just have to meatride

Spoiler

JCaesar's alt account

Plum's next awesome idea.

PRESSURE!

But seriously, I think my fix is way better than NADT. In turn, Plum's fix is better than mine. Second best is still better than what we've got currently.

 

[Shadic]

But seriously, I think my fix is way better than NADT. In turn, Plum's fix is better than mine. Second best is still better than what we've got currently.

This is why we discuss things. MLIARPG and I got a lot of flack for insisting that it was brought up though.

Which is, you know, kinda annoying.

 

[[TSON]]

As cool as that is, I think letting Link blow up his own bombs (i.e. bomb jumping) is even more crucial. I can't wait for some coding sorcerer to get that working.

Lol, press downB to make bomb explode? Like that? That would be almost too easy to code if someone found the bomb's offset XD.

In Bomb offset:
Set Loop Infinite:
--If (insert variable here) = true
----07040100 0-(number here above 20)
----Clear Bit
----Loop Rest
--End If
Execute Loop

In SpecialLw:

If Article Exists:
--Set (something)-Bit[(something)] = true
Else:
--Spawn Article: (whatever)
End If.

Simple

 

[Plum]

Not quite that TSON :V
You would have to allow Link hitting his own bomb cause it to explode for true bomb jumping. It's when Link throws his bomb straight into the air and then Up B's into the bomb. DI the explosion towards the stage and Up B again.
Smash 64's variation was dropping the bomb midair and hitting it with a Bair to explode your way to the stage iirc.

 

[shanus]

Lol, press downB to make bomb explode? Like that? That would be almost too easy to code if someone found the bomb's offset XD.

In Bomb offset:
Set Loop Infinite:
--If (insert variable here) = true
----07040100 0-(number here above 20)
----Clear Bit
----Loop Rest
--End If
Execute Loop

In SpecialLw:

If Article Exists:
--Set (something)-Bit[(something)] = true
Else:
--Spawn Article: (whatever)
End If.

Simple

1. No.

2.I'd like to see you add stuff to common3.pac in code, i dont know if dants current method could be applied to common3

 

[Dantarion]

It should work. I dont know where common3.pac is held in memory though.

 

[Oni K4ge]

Hey guys, I just downloaded B+ today. Unfortunately I've got a problem...

well, everything works fine for the most part. Its just one of my codes, infinite B Up v2. it... doesnt work anymore. Is there perhaps a conflicting code? Thanks in advance. Oh, and I only posted in this thread because I'm not using 5.0, but the latest GSH1 build (11/29).

 

[Dantarion]

I don't think we should support people adding codes to the .txt and then complaining about those codes not working.

No offense, but your problem doesn't have much to do with B+ itself.