Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Perfect Chaos]

If MADT is tested, it should have a little landing lag when you MADT into the ground (a la Melee). If it's completely lag-less, I could see people using MADT to dodge into the ground, and immediately shield, to get out of strings, which would make the NADT code kind of pointless.
But whatever; just throwing out something that came to my mind...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, MADT would be directional, so you mean make it so the wavedashing (?) isn't so broken? Yeah, perfectchaos brings up a good point.

The problem I have with the MADT is that it might alienate brawl players wanting to convert...

 

[Alphatron]

If a tumbling opponent is that close to the ground and was able to waveland, then where were you? Just hit/grab him.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Good point.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF myself.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If a tumbling opponent is that close to the ground and was able to waveland, then where were you? Just hit/grab him.

From Melee air-dodge distance as a reference point, the distance is pretty far, so you're kind of underestimating it (but that's not the point, since the dodge distance can probably be adjusted for that). The fact that the opponent is in TUMBLE, as opposed to hit-stun, means that you are not guaranteed a hit/grab in the first place. But with MADT (more so with a lag-less one), that would make the original purpose of NADT kind of pointless.

 

[VietGeek]

Yes, IIRC even non-frame perfect wavedashes/wavelands from the MAD/HAD code are pretty large. This can be fixed but then the question how should one balance said wavelands? Why does X get a further distanced one from Y? I can certainly say it causes a myriad of more problems than solves.

obv a brawl airdodge w/ less invincibility frames on start-up (or maybe no start-up nerfs at all; see below) and has set momentum (semi-slow obv) is a preposterous idea that doesn't even deserve caps imo

edit: also it would not only set momentum but it could have a few more invinc. frames chopped off from the end, and maintain vB airdodge length instead.

moon grav bad (BAD would be bad) out of tumble for dumb ideas

And Fox's usmash has been wtf material Since March 9th, 2008, where have you been?

Playing Melee.

Oh wait.

 

[MK26]

yeah, sage, where've you been?

Spoiler

oh yes i just went there

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I like MADT better than viet's idea...


after all, it's an experimental set...why can't we try MADT??

 

[Shell]

Different AD during tumble seems mad un-intuitive, as already metnioned... And why would you add tasty things like wavelanding just as a purely defensive option, but not many of the other cool applications? Seems like a bit of a slippery slope. One I'm not personally against sliding down, mind you, but slippery all the same.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Or, you know, we can make it so that you're automatically in freefall after you finish MADT and whatever action afterward (Zair).

This.

Also, It seems like we all want to at least give MADT a try. Yes this does introduce Wavelanding to the equation, but personally I want to take it to a tournament, and see it played amongst a large group of players before we say it is just wholly a bad idea. Considering that it can only be done from tumble, which means you had to get hit in the first place, I'd say it might not be as bad as we think.

Also, the problem with a slower to start air dodge is that it just makes air dodging bad. We don't want to make air dodging bad, we want to make air-dodging as much of a viable option as any other option. MADT gives us four options, attack, jump, MAD, or Tap+BAD from tumble. As long as we balance the MAD to be the right speed, and distance I think this is a good thing to give a shot.

 

[Veril]

Directional airdodging is an idea that can be made to sound good, but in practice its extremely destabilizing, presents many coding challenges, and is a glaringly out of place mechanic. If you think hybrid airdodges haven't been messed with experimentally, you are wrong.

While the beta is meant to be experimental, that doesn't mean it has to entertain every idea suggested. Implementing the MADT mechanic would require a lot of alterations to momentum and friction, which is not something I am comfortable doing. So, the problems with MADT are: massively out of place, doesn't work well with the physics, and would require several mechanics changes to make the waveland distances less absurd (triangle dodges are actually the most ridiculous in the recent HAD code that I've tried).

I know it won't work properly. Sorry guys.

NADT makes it so that you cannot buffer an airdodge out of tumble. Wiggling lets you AD, but you'll need better timing than without NADT, where the default choice was almost always "DI and spam airdodge to buffer it". Wiggling randomly will also mess up your DI if you are comboed despite the escape attempts. It isn't a pointless skill and it doesn't require the massive mechanics tweaks that exotic new mechanics like MADT would.

Jiggs' throws are meh unless you get thrown off at the edge of the stage. She can't combo out of them. They don't kill, and they knock way too far to do any unpredictable followups.

I loled.

Jiggs has an insanely good grab and her throws can KO at the high% when her options are most limited since she can't WOP effectively and rest would be extremely unsafe. The only thing I want to alter about them is making d-throw to DACUS work better. That's it. Jiggs few throw combos (basically up-throw rest) got removed with the support of myself and Glick (both knowledgeable, competitive, Jiggs mains).

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Different AD during tumble seems mad un-intuitive, as already metnioned... And why would you add tasty things like wavelanding just as a purely defensive option, but not many of the other cool applications? Seems like a bit of a slippery slope. One I'm not personally against sliding down, mind you, but slippery all the same.

The issue we have is we, as of yet, have no other option.

ADT did not work, people just mashed out of strings.
NADT did not work, people were angry about arbitrary tech skill and you could STILL just mash and wiggle out of strings.
More startup or endlag on air dodges don't work, it just makes air dodges worse, and either A, eliminates them from gameplay all together, or B, artificially elongates strings until you can once again, mash out just at a slower speed and possibly even cancel it with a fast fall.
Making just the tumble AD worse is also pointless, because then people will just TAP and AD and we are back to NADT.


The pros of MADT are

1, people cannot mash or wiggle in any way shape or form. Mashing will cause them to air dodge and eat both the end lag and freefall.
2. It gives us yet another interesting defensive option.
3. It increases tether recovery game
4. It strikes a balance between NADT and ADT camps.

The cons are
1. Wavelanding may be too powerful
2. It is unintuitive

Since the pros outweigh the cons, it is at least worth a Beta test. We can then decide from experience and observation, rather than speculation, if it is a good or bad change.

Also, a manual will easily explain the mechanic ^_^ and I am up on that.

 

[Veril]

OMG why?!

I just explained why it doesn't work. It isn't happening. Saying things like NADT didn't work because a few people complained... in this thread...

Stop saying "arbitrary tech skill" like that actually means something. It isn't arbitrary. It prevents buffering AD out of tumble. Wavelanding in B+ is stupid. I've tried it.

If someone is trying to wiggle out of a string, you basically know they're going to airdodge if you hear the frantic control stick motions. Another thing to consider.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

so if you don't like MADT, what's your idea? cuz we're sure not as hell keeping NADT.

people just aren't complaining in threads. They're complaining in tournies everywhere. Some even had crowd boos at the NADT.

so if you want to alienate your players, go ahead, keep NADT.

 

[Shadic]

Except it's not just people in this thread that are complaining. MLIARPG posted in this thread the events from a tournament he went to. I've heard complaining IRL about it, I'm sure most people who play with those that don't follow every B+ "Nightly" have heard complaints about it.

There's a lot of complaints about it, and saying that those who dislike it should learn the mechanic isn't going to earn B+ any friends, or new players.

 

[JCaesar]

Veril laying down truths up in here...

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

NADT makes it so that you cannot buffer an airdodge out of tumble. Wiggling lets you AD, but you'll need better timing than without NADT, where the default choice was almost always "DI and spam airdodge to buffer it". Wiggling randomly will also mess up your DI if you are comboed despite the escape attempts. It isn't a pointless skill and it doesn't require the massive mechanics tweaks that exotic new mechanics like MADT would.

OK, I can buy that MADT might be too difficult a change to implement but that doesn't make NADT just a default to fall back on. There is more than enough evidence here showing that NADT was very poorly received, and mostly non-intuitive by Brawl+ players, Melee players, vBrawl players, and noobies alike. If MADT isn't going to happen then we need something else other than NADT and ADT.

If the response of the backroom to this feedback is really "screw you guys, NADT stays" then what is the point of feedback in the first place. The public has spoken. You can either listen to them or not listen to them, and if you choose not to listen to them, then this whole feedback thread is a farce. If the backroom really just wants to make the game they think is best, then don't even bother with feedback threads. Just make a game, release it, and we will take it or leave it.

However, it appears as if there is an interest in what the Brawl+ public is thinking, so I have faith that MADT or something similar will be tested in the next nightly. I'll say it again, I liked NADT it vastly increased my own combo game, but I understand why people didn't like it and I saw how poorly it was received. For the sake of a better project I am against NADT.

IF MADT is really hard to do and if wavelanding is gonna be a problem. How about something different. How about instead of a melee air dodge we just have a momentum stopping air dodge. It's not directional or anything, it just stops you in place in the air, canceling your momentum, and then puts you into freefall, sort of like a neutral AD in melee. Now we have no wavelanding, no physics macguffins, or anything like that, but we still have two equally viable different dodging options from tumble.

For the record Veril, I typed my previous post before yours was up.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Also, if you really want to see how many people like NADT and how many don't, start a poll or something. I can get everyone I know who has played it to vote in it. Hell i can even spread the poll link around websites. Then we can actually quantify numbers rather than just stating our observations, if our observations aren't good enough.

IF any more evidence is needed, then I say we simply sound off saying whether we think NADT is a good idea, or whether anything else (regardless of what the fix may be) would be a good idea.

My vote goes in against NADT.

If I am outvoted, I will offer an apology and admit to being wrong. I will then eat my own face and we can call it a day and never speak of this again.

Also, if NADT is going in either way, simply tell me and I will gladly withdraw my feedback from this thread, cease bringing Brawl+ to tournaments and let you guys do whatever you like to the game uninterrupted. I have no problems with you guys just making the game that you think is best, and that might actually be be more productive, but if that is how it is going to be we at least deserve to know.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

+1 against NADT

 

[TLMSheikant]

I have mixed feelings for NADT. It both helps and hinders TL. Hmm...+1 for NADT.

 

[Bandit]

Hey RPG, let me tell you how this works.

Feedback is simply feedback. They want to know how the public is feeling about it. THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO JUST THIS THREAD.

They know players who give them feedback in person, at tournaments, through PM's, in the backroom, etc. There are not many tournament players commenting in this thread because it's a spam fest in here. There's no point.

Tournament players' opinions are more weighted than non-tournament players, but in the end, it is up to the BR. If they like it, sucks to be you.

If you cry out "we are a democracy!", then I can refute that too. This is setup just like congress. The public voices their complaints while congress filters through all the spam that doesn't matter, and makes decisions on important issues the best they can. Do you think if you said "I don't like the health plan bill" to a congressman that they would listen to you and change their minds along with everyone else's? No, they would laugh at you and go "tough."

Your opinion and voice are important which is why this thread exists, but just because people complain about things doesn't mean they get changed around here.

The BR is hit with character specific or game-wide changes every day through PMs, threads, IMs, etc. This thread is simply a place to voice an opinion, but it carries little weight in the mind of the BR.

In case you are wondering, I am not a BR member. I know a few fairly well, and I know what they go through. It's a tough job to work this game, and your constant badgering and demanding has probably made their opinion of you tank into the trash.

:bandit:

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If Bandit ever makes a non-hateful post, then the world actually well end in 2012......


also, his point wasn't that the WBR should change it just for him. His POINT was that a majority of people in smashboards AND FROM TOURNAMENTS do not like NADT. Thus, the WBR is ALIENATING new players from coming due to a much disliked thing about Brawl+.

He was giving a RECOMMENDATION, not a FORCE-YOU-TO-CHANGE-THIS kind of post.

 

[Alondite]

On gaiaonline, I once used the complaint generator and made a topic about how much that site sucked with it. I got over 5 pages of flaming from people who claimed to read the whole thing stating that I was using a dictionary and such. Cape recently flipped out over a joke posted in this topic.

Maybe jokes and the internet just weren't meant to be.

Anyway...I don't see how FF fireballs would help Mario in the slightest. I bad projectile is still going to be a bad projectile and we've little reason to change it.

I'm not sure what to say about shields at the moment. High powered attacks being safe on shield is fine. Wario fsmash being safe on shield is not.

If the fireballs cancel on landing (a la Falco's blaster) they would at least be a bit more versatile. They force an opponent to react, even if they don't hit, and that alone can be helpful. They also would make him a bit harder to approach. If they suck why just leave them that way? All the moves are already there, every move should have a use.

 

[Isatis]

For all it's worth, even the public has a bit of voice in this, if not why does this thread exist?

Alondite...I haven't really seen Mario's fireballs used except for spacing or edgeguarding really...the fireballs are really slow in speed unlike Falco's blaster and don't go as far as the blaster does, so I'm not sure what good comparing the two is

 

[SymphonicSage12]

then make mario's fireballs faster and last longer.

YAY UNNECESSARY BUFFS FTW!

 

[Alondite]

For all it's worth, even the public has a bit of voice in this, if not why does this thread exist?

Alondite...I haven't really seen Mario's fireballs used except for spacing or edgeguarding really...the fireballs are really slow in speed unlike Falco's blaster and don't go as far as the blaster does, so I'm not sure what good comparing the two is

So instead we should leave an essentially worthless move as is? That doesn't make sense to me. More useful moves = more viable options = more depth.

 

[MK26]

+1 6 frames of AD startup

+1 no nadt

can i +1 anything else?

+1 post?

 

[Veril]

They know players who give them feedback in person, at tournaments, through PM's, in the backroom, etc. There are not many tournament players commenting in this thread because it's a spam fest in here. There's no point.

Tournament players' opinions are more weighted than non-tournament players, but in the end, it is up to the BR. If they like it, sucks to be you.

...

Your opinion and voice are important which is why this thread exists, but just because people complain about things doesn't mean they get changed around here.

:bandit:

Thank you, Bandit. NADT has been taken differently in different regions. NE supposedly hates it, but I haven't been hearing this sort of rage from NY players. I think NADT is a really good thing. Does that mean I will ignore sentiment against it? No, of course not. I spent quite a while today discussing this very issue with a player who is adamantly against NADT (Naucitos). There are a lot of people who don't like NADT. The problem I have is that NADT accomplishes exactly what it was intended for: removing the ability to buffer airdodges. If you think of hitstun changes being geared to make the offensive aspect of the game less "EZ mode" this does the same to the defensive. Not liking it is one thing, but recognize that NADT physically limits your options in NO WAY.


Idea's like MADT are not going to be implemented. I will be honest with you. It has nothing to do with who suggested it (GoG, a wbr member, suggested it a while back actually) IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT NOT WORKING. MADT is not just bad in theory, its bad in practice. Major airdodge mechanics changes will not be implemented because well, airdodges are important for things other than escaping combos and we've spent an enormous time balancing them already.

And B+ wavelanding would be broken. Not, it might be. It would be by far the best option for escaping the vast majority of ~horizontal combos. I've seen what the wavelands would look like, they're ridiculous.

What could be done instead of NADT would be to simply make it impossible to buffer an airdodge when in hitstun. It would have the same desired effect of making mindlessly spamming airdodge less effective, but people would be able to AD in tumble, it would just require more precise spamming L timing for the airdodge. Adding a 5-10 frame window after the end of hitstun where airdodging was impossible would also be desirable. It would create the middle ground where strings are effective but you will have options available to escape. 5 frames will be hard to notice for less experienced players btw.


Well, that's my alternate suggestion...


As to the "poll" I really don't care about a poll taken in this thread. Now, if you go to a tourney, and conduct a fair poll in which you don't attempt to bias people (keep NADT or don't are the options, don't pressure anyone, you know, make it legit.) that would be a lot more effective. As it is, I favor my compromise (obviously) and am interested in your feedback on that.


Oh, and I've got a ton of characters up in the throw data thread. Take a look, ask for buff's (Link mains, I feel your pain) er.. suggest changes.

 

[Plum]

Coding wise, what I think is the best solution might not be possible; make airdodges like jumping out of a meteor smash. If you hit airdodge but before you can actually airdodge you are hit with a penalty. Your hit with another few frames of not being able airdodge for screwing up.
It would force you to wait even longer to dodge out of tumble for a missed timed dodge.
Mashing no longer possible and is punished, rewards the player for as close to as perfect timing as possible, still has the element of human error that makes the string game dynamic.

I like NADT, but if it had to go that's what I would prefer over any solution. As far as I see it also pleases the NADT haters but accomplishes the same basic ideas of NADT.

Spoiler

and I'm still wanting G&W's Up B to kill at its very peak when he pulls the chute out :V <3 Melee Nair

 

[JCaesar]

Why is Plum not in the WBR? That man is a genius.

If I don't stop meatriding you, people are gonna think we're alt accounts

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

To Bandit,

I never thought this was a democracy, but as Bionic Sonic said, the reason this feedback thread exists is because the BR at least somewhat cares about what the public thinks. Yes, tournament player's opinions are weighed more heavily, and part of this whole thing started because I went to an Ainme con and had a tournament. It's not like I am pulling this out of my ***.

To Bionic Sonic,

Thank you. That is how I assumed this worked.

To Veril,

There is something very important that has to be said about your proposed fix...

I dig it ^_^. Sounds like it would work. I dig your compromises Veril, your generally thinking in ways that really work to please all players out there. Thanx for being level headed about this. I think being unable to buffer during tumble would be a great idea. Let's think of a random acronym for it... NBDT? NBDH? Eh whatever.

Thanks for the suggestion. I now officially back that idea. If sounds like it would fix most problems, and it fixes the problem we have been having with fixes being counter intuitive as well. Now there isn't a prolonged state in the air in which you can't dodge. We are basically just requiring more precise timing and altering the points in which you can choose the air dodge option out of tumble. Since attacking, jumping, and air dodging were able to be done at different points during tumble anyway. The 5 frame window (I think 5 sounds better than 10) just alters the point in which you could choose the option. Also 5 frams is a little less than a 10th of a second which synchs up with human reaction time quite well so that people can choose Tap+AD or simple delayed AD at their liesure.

Big ups Veril. You got my chips in your pot.

 

[Veril]

Thanks RPG

Plums idea is pretty cool. I don't think mistiming an airdodge by 15 frames or less should be punished though, because strings like many jab-grabs might get a little ridiculous if people are punished for slightly mistiming AD. Fifteen frames actually does correspond to normal reaction time. We could make it so that airdodging within 15 frames of the end of hitstun isn't punished, prior to that will incur a penalty that scales with the amount of times shield is pressed (ideally, obv. easier said than done). The penalty could simply take the form of a few frames after hitstun where ADing becomes impossible (although I still think 5 frames should be added where ADing is impossible). I feel it should be fairly minor for shielding once.

On the other hand, the original idea (Credit goes equally to Naucitos, it was the end result of a long, friendly argument with him) might be easier to implement, simply making it so that airdodge can't be buffered during hitstun + a few frames after.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm still confused with veril's idea....are you saying that ADT would be impossible until the last 15 frames of hitstun?

 

[Veril]

Basically, the purpose of NADT is to make it impossible to buffer airdodge and thus improve strings, force people to utilize other options beside spamming AD, etc. It makes airdodging impossible in the tumble state, which isn't an actual issue because of wiggling, but people really hate it.

What I'm proposing is simply making the game ignore buffered airdodges. More like how you get punished for mistiming techs than meteor smashes. You would be able to airdodge as soon as you were out of hitstun, but spamming shield wouldn't be as effective as actually properly timing it. Plum suggested a punishment for early attempts, but I'm starting to wonder if that would have unintended effects on the tech window.

My way, only 5 frames of the tumble state would be affected, and it wouldn't be possible to wiggle out of that. It would be a lot less weird than NADT but still require smarter play.


On Casual Players:
I am aware that almost every competitive player was at one point a casual player. The majority of my non-smash boards loving friends who do play smash do so casually. I still play matches with items on at times, or on custom stages designed to create inescapable soccer ball death traps and I definitely do lots of tricks simply cause they are cool... but I'm in this to make B+ the best competitive fighter it can be. B+ is supposed to be more fun for everyone, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and emphasize skill, planning, thought and technical ability. Ideally we get the desired effects in such a way that it doesn't interfere with anyone's fun. This won't always be possible, but I think it is with the goal of taking away defensive "E-Z mode". NADT worked, but if its possible to make a less obtrusive method work, I'm all for it.

 

[Alphatron]

Veril, I never said Jiggs grab was bad. I was just responding to protein about their insane bkb. Everything else you said, I knew.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm just still confused with the difference between the terms tumble and hitstun. You are saying that, with your proposal, people would be able to airdodge once they are out of hitstun. Can't you do that already with NADT.

So tumble and hitstun aren't necessarily the same thing? ugh... I am so confused....


NUB IN HERE

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Ok sage, lesson time. There is a point after you get hit called hitstun in which you basically can do jackfarkall. Hitstun eventually gives way to tumble, a situation in which you CAN do jackfarkall, specifically air dodge, jump, and attack out of it. NADT means you can't air dodge during tumble time.

Also, Veril, and everyone else, I look at Brawl+ a lot like Street Fighter 2 HD Remix. It has been said before but SF2HDR had code in it that made special moves easier. This, in short, made a lot of pro players go RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE, but in the end, as was also stated in this thread before, SF@HDR was about making teh game both more balanced and more accessible.

Veril's fix makes the game balanced and accessible, and that is why I like it. In fact now when i look back on it, MADT was interesting, but was actually more inaccessible and counter intuitive. So yeah Veril's idea for the win.

 

[Alphatron]

Tumble is when your character is falling in the air after being hit. Hitstun is the period of time after being hit in which you are essentially helpless(DI aside).

A combination of Veril's and plums ideas sounds great.

 

[Veril]

It wouldn't be fair for me to take all the credit for the idea. I credit Naucitos with bringing it up in our convo earlier. I'm just dressing it up, making it look pretty, adding 5 frames of hitstun and possibly an aspect of punishment for AD spam as per plums idea.

Plums idea is really cool too, its gonna come down to what is possible. If everything can be incorporated without it intefering with tech windows that would be awesome.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

OH WOW how did I not get that..

so the basically the idea is to allow AD during tumble, but your are "punished" if you don't time it correctly?