Brawl-: 1.5-1.6 thread archive. 2.0 is stickied

[bajisci]

I am greatly enjoying 1.5, yoshi's uair was over nerfed and so was squirtle overall. GnW is the ****. Change olimar back to normal, seriously, this change wasn't good hes ****ing garbage now.


edit: it would also be great if youd list out every change instead of having a ton of ninja nerfs. squirtles SA was definitely toned down and saying adding sourspot didnt imply u decresed the range.

I also propose revamping luigi, hes a dumb ****ing character that takes so little skill in a game that requires very little skill that it is silly. nerfing his nair would balance him, at least make the priority not so ****ing absurd.

 

[FOcast]

Hey guys – my first ever post on smashboards, though I've been lurking for a looooong time. >.>

First, let me say that my entire playgroup LOVES Minus. From me, the guy who would probably play in tournaments if I knew where they were or had the time and money to get to them, to the ubernewbies who basically don't play any other videogames. Great job!

That aside, I had a couple questions that might be bugs. Firstly, Wario's bike. If you get on it while airborne, it rides in a straight line, ignoring gravity. For all I know, this could be intended, as it looks quite silly, but you also can't turn or tilt the bike, and can't use tap jump to get off of it, which resulted in some friends of mine killing themselves quite a few times by riding slowly off the screen in a straight line.

Secondly, Ike's forward and down air attacks seem to have a lot of lag. I first noticed it when a CPU Ike killed himself three times in one match, but soon realized why when I found myself unable to jump after using the moves for significantly longer than expected. As far as I've seen, using his forward air at any point below the stage is suicide, even if you've still got a jump.

That's all for now. Thanks for all of your hard work in making this awesome game, and we can't wait for 2.0 =D


Edit: Holy ****, I just looked at my own join date. Have I really been lurking for three years? o.O

 

[Revven]

That aside, I had a couple questions that might be bugs. Firstly, Wario's bike. If you get on it while airborne, it rides in a straight line, ignoring gravity. For all I know, this could be intended, as it looks quite silly, but you also can't turn or tilt the bike, and can't use tap jump to get off of it, which resulted in some friends of mine killing themselves quite a few times by riding slowly off the screen in a straight line.

You can jump off, I was doing it all the time yesterday when I played. It's intended though, it's listed in the OP under 1.5's changes (Kirk's post) under Wario's changes.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That aside, I had a couple questions that might be bugs. Firstly, Wario's bike. If you get on it while airborne, it rides in a straight line, ignoring gravity. For all I know, this could be intended, as it looks quite silly, but you also can't turn or tilt the bike, and can't use tap jump to get off of it, which resulted in some friends of mine killing themselves quite a few times by riding slowly off the screen in a straight line.

Fully intentional; jump off using the A button like in vBrawl.

Secondly, Ike's forward and down air attacks seem to have a lot of lag. I first noticed it when a CPU Ike killed himself three times in one match, but soon realized why when I found myself unable to jump after using the moves for significantly longer than expected. As far as I've seen, using his forward air at any point below the stage is suicide, even if you've still got a jump.

Don't go under the stage with ike.

Edit: Holy ****, I just looked at my own join date. Have I really been lurking for three years? o.O

Lurk moar

 

[Orion*]

edit: it would also be great if youd list out every change instead of having a ton of ninja nerfs.

youre all awful. how hard is this to respond to. its really simple to answer, and unless theres a specific reason VERY easy to fix.

one of the main reasons B+ got so popular was that you could easily look at all of the changes made to your characters. the garbage on the change list is so ambiguous and misses like 3/4ths of the cast, the crap you do have is stuff like

"Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox"

you are programming this. its not very hard to just give the community a number on HOW much damage or knock back or whatever. im sorry but its just not acceptable lol

edit: this game has potential to appeal to a casual and competitive crowd and i dont want to see it just fall out of the loop like B+ did in the EC.

 

[Zucco]

Luigi is fine imo Baji. His nair is alittle stupid but the game is supposed to be broken and I dont want to see everyone just beaten to death with nerf sticks. Just buff the bad characters so that they have more of a chance.

 

[bajisci]

word true more buffs need to go around instead of nerfing, stick to the brawl- mentality! and more drastic changes to characters like DK

 

[Coney]

i honestly can find no use for DK's barrels

producing them takes so long that by the time i try to do anything i just get hit and drop it on my head and take ~17% like an *******

dunno what you can do about this, as i get that it's kinda an extension of his downb but, right now, it seems useless

 

[Dark.Pch]

I dont think Peach needs any improvement. She is just fine to me. Playing her for the first, time, really against gay ****, I don't have a problem with her at all. If you wanna buff her up, I honestly can't say what. maybe her Dsmash. But it has more knock back that regular brawl.

 

[bajisci]

i honestly can find no use for DK's barrels

producing them takes so long that by the time i try to do anything i just get hit and drop it on my head and take ~17% like an *******

dunno what you can do about this, as i get that it's kinda an extension of his downb but, right now, it seems useless

u can set up traps with them and do silly **** like throw it up then dsmash it as it falls to kinda launch it at an angle but yea they are pretty **** useless, oh edguarding with them works kinda well too

 

[Revven]

If the barrels really are hard to use (which I find hard to believe since I am a DK main myself) then they could just speed up the toss animation when he throws them up, down, and forward. You could also allow him to walk faster when carrying barrels. But that's about all they could probably do, otherwise they'd have to edit the barrels themselves which in turn affects regular items and I'm not sure if they want to do that...

Edit: 5,000th post, 2pro.

 

[BSL]

The only thing about luigi is maybe lower his airspeed just a tad, change is fair slightly, as the angle+knockback makes it a REALLY easy chain for the kill.

Like, more than once i have hit with a fair, and just jumped off the stage spamming fair and they chain for a kill.

Footstool spikes. It's rediculous in both Mario and Luigi. Lower the knockback on the spike. Maybe those slight nerfs will balance him a little more?

 

[bajisci]

Imo the only thing that breaks him is the nair

 

[theunabletable]

Imo Luigi is fine and doesn't need any nerfs at all...

 

[[TSON]]

We have to nerf SOME things or else the game will become overly spammy. So we have to stray from out mentality sometimes.

 

[stingers]

no dont nerf anything please

 

[[TSON]]

I'm saying eventually we will need to if we keep buffing things.

 

[stingers]

no please don't.

 

[Revven]

Stingers speaks troof.

 

[[TSON]]

You want to play a game where Ganon has a 2 frame punch that OHKO's and can be done OOS instantly?

That's what we'll end up with in the end if we don't eventually nerf.

 

[Zucco]

Just, dont overdue the nerfs please. the game is fun because its so stupid lol.

 

[Coney]

maybe i just haven't played a good DK

see, i don't know, i don't think there are any big buffs or nerfs that are necessary, which i guess is why the transition from 1.0 to 1.5 was so jarring for me

of course some characters are going to appear better than others. it's early. the metagame needs to develop, and the beautiful thing about this game is that a metagame CAN develop. but first it needs a base, a structure, and to do that changes need to be minimal. shaving off some damage of someone's uair or minorly reducing knockback on luigi's up-b is okay; making luigi's tornado produce a sticky bomb on anyone he passes through is not.

i'm just saying, the game will never be perfect and it'll never be completely balanced, but i'm convinced it doesn't need to be.

you have a gem here, guys! polish it!

or!

you could go in the other direction; producing new stuff each version, silly stuff, party game stuff. i understand that maybe we're being too closed-minded, as competitive brawl players. but that's fine too, i think! i just fear it'll become too stale in the long run and people will stop updating just to see the NEXT BIG OMGWTF attack

maybe we took this game too seriously and are now asking you not to change it for the metagame's sake, which maybe wasn't even your intention to begin with. if so, sorry!

 

[stingers]

can you guys just kick out any previous brawl+ developers off this project? they know why.

 

[Izaniki]

stuffs

Just saying, with B+, a lot of the time the changelists were incomplete or wrong and everyone would see the change and go "Oh, that's going to ruin XYZ" instead of playing it to see how the character actually worked. Also, as this is a 'stepping stone' version update, it's not very important to get more than a general change. Devs spending time on the game >>>> change list.

Eventually, we'll get changelists. It's not prudent to spend the time getting every specific change at the moment when the stuff we have is probably already outdated from the BR builds.

 

[[TSON]]

can you guys just kick out any previous brawl+ developers off this project? they know why.

>implying we have any brawl+ coders codi--

Kirk and Veril?

usurethatswhatsgood

 

[Delta-cod]

Yes he was. Uair->uair->uair off the top was so easy in 1.0.

You clearly didn't play people that knew how to DI it properly. I won my first Brawl- 1.0 tournament* with ALL Yoshi, and every juggle was NOT an Uair 3x off the stage. Occasionally I couldn't get a rising Uair because of proper DI. Other times, I had to get the final killing move with a well aimed egg. It was easy the FIRST time I played people while using Yoshi because they didn't know how to DI it properly. The second time, they DI'd out of it nearly EVERY TIME unless the percents and sourspot/sweetspot hits were correct.

*Bracket: http://img267.imageshack.us/i/tasteofarmageddonbrawl.gif/

and now it's

Uair -> get smacked in 1.5

Sadly, yes. That's so wrong.

I am greatly enjoying 1.5, yoshi's uair was over nerfed and so was squirtle overall. GnW is the ****. Change olimar back to normal, seriously, this change wasn't good hes ****ing garbage now.


edit: it would also be great if youd list out every change instead of having a ton of ninja nerfs. squirtles SA was definitely toned down and saying adding sourspot didnt imply u decresed the range.

I also propose revamping luigi, hes a dumb ****ing character that takes so little skill in a game that requires very little skill that it is silly. nerfing his nair would balance him, at least make the priority not so ****ing absurd.

youre all awful. how hard is this to respond to. its really simple to answer, and unless theres a specific reason VERY easy to fix.

one of the main reasons B+ got so popular was that you could easily look at all of the changes made to your characters. the garbage on the change list is so ambiguous and misses like 3/4ths of the cast, the crap you do have is stuff like

"Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox"

you are programming this. its not very hard to just give the community a number on HOW much damage or knock back or whatever. im sorry but its just not acceptable lol

edit: this game has potential to appeal to a casual and competitive crowd and i dont want to see it just fall out of the loop like B+ did in the EC.

These two posts x1000. When I looked at the change list for Yoshi, it says:

Yoshi

-Fair: Damage and BKB reduced very slightly.
-Uair: Sourspot damage decreased greatly, tipper hitbox damage decreased by 2.

How am I supposed to know that Uair has NO stun and no knockback based on a damage reduction? I went into the event expecting it to just do less damage and to still be usable, maybe not combo into death all the time, but at least allow for juggling. I was in for quite a surprise when I was combo'd to death after hitting with a sourspot Uair.

 

[Izaniki]

Reducing damage does those things :x

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not sold on the idea that a damage reduction causes a move to lose all BKB and stun.

 

[Coney]

How am I supposed to know that Uair has NO stun and no knockback based on a damage reduction? I went into the event expecting it to just do less damage and to still be usable, maybe not combo into death all the time, but at least allow for juggling. I was in for quite a surprise when I was combo'd to death after hitting with a sourspot Uair.

 

[bajisci]

damage reduces knockback of some sort since rob's nair's damage reduction severely reduced its KBG

 

[Inferno3044]

Luigi is fine imo Baji. His nair is alittle stupid but the game is supposed to be broken and I dont want to see everyone just beaten to death with nerf sticks. Just buff the bad characters so that they have more of a chance.

This x9001

 

[Delta-cod]

Lol. i love that gif

damage reduces knockback of some sort since rob's nair's damage reduction severely reduced its KBG

Strictly speaking of a damage reduction, the only thing I can see it directly affecting is the damage output and possibly hitstun. BKB should not be affected, and neither should KBG.

Of course, I'm not doing the coding so I may be wrong.

 

[theunabletable]

Nah I know that reducing damage also reduces knockback. I used to screw around with PSA, and at first I was confused as to why increasing the damage of something by a couple percent was making them kill obscenely early

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

youre all awful. how hard is this to respond to. its really simple to answer, and unless theres a specific reason VERY easy to fix.

one of the main reasons B+ got so popular was that you could easily look at all of the changes made to your characters. the garbage on the change list is so ambiguous and misses like 3/4ths of the cast, the crap you do have is stuff like

"Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox"

you are programming this. its not very hard to just give the community a number on HOW much damage or knock back or whatever. im sorry but its just not acceptable lol

edit: this game has potential to appeal to a casual and competitive crowd and i dont want to see it just fall out of the loop like B+ did in the EC.

Just for the record. I kept a comprehensive changelist of every character I did. There are two ways to make a changelist: the easy way (write down the change as you make it), and the really ****ing hard way (go through the finished .pac not knowing exactly what changed and look at EVERY ****ING SUBACTION AND ACTION FOR CHANGES).

Me and kirk had that first part going pretty solid up until around 0.9... Then what happened was a bunch of changes nobody really kept track of solidly. At least kirk kept a 1.0->1.5 changelog nicely.

Making changelists is a ****ing nightmare. Like, for example, olimar. None of his hitboxes are in his subactions; almost all of his changes are not visible until you know the exact offset where they are. And then there are the ones that you need to view in a hex editor!

EDIT: /nerdrage

 

[shanus]

Just for the record. I kept a comprehensive changelist of every character I did. There are two ways to make a changelist: the easy way (write down the change as you make it), and the really ****ing hard way (go through the finished .pac not knowing exactly what changed and look at EVERY ****ING SUBACTION AND ACTION FOR CHANGES).

Me and kirk had that first part going pretty solid up until around 0.9... Then what happened was a bunch of changes nobody really kept track of solidly. At least kirk kept a 1.0->1.5 changelog nicely.

Making changelists is a ****ing nightmare. Like, for example, olimar. None of his hitboxes are in his subactions; almost all of his changes are not visible until you know the exact offset where they are. And then there are the ones that you need to view in a hex editor!

EDIT: /nerdrage

get SVN to keep version control and a changelog

 

[ss118]

Did I read a post saying Squirtle was nerfed? lol

Luigi+Ness was overly nerfed, imo, but I don't main them so I'll ask my friend who mains them for more info.

PT is the best, imo. 3 S ranked characters in one: none is beaten by bowser, and if you feel like Squirtle is then go Ivysaur. After that it's a bit mixed: I didn't play 1.0 but poor Yoshi. His U-air is terrible.

I also don't understand what to do with wario, but then again I never did so =/

I also agree G+W is ridiculous, but I hold the opinion that PT is more-so.

 

[@TKbreezy]

2.0 fix squirtle please....I pretty much switched mains to kirby because of how hard you guys nerfed him

Give me my ****in Fsmash and Dair back...you can keep that nair...I understand why you nerfed that...squirtle was untouchable..lol

but like, if luigi gets that gay *** spiking fair that combos into itself then I (squirtle) should defintely be able to keep his dair spike. That move sucks now

just saying

Otherwise I mean its still a fun game, but, after being so used to not using me shield as much (Because of shield stun) I kinda wish you bring that shield stun back, or atleast return some of it.

 

[CriticalDesign]

O.o

That is bizarre. Try redownloading, make sure you have all the files right... How are you launching?

I'm using Gecko.

Are you removing the SD card? Just checking.

...no. Again, 1.0 works just fine, but 1.5 doesn't seem to be applying. I've been checking with falcons down-B returning a jump, but is there a better way?

 

[Zucco]

Luigi+Ness was overly nerfed, imo, but I don't main them so I'll ask my friend who mains them for more info.

They are Both fine. I dont use Luigi, but I do use Ness and know how he works. Ness has alot more than just comboing into Fair over and over again. The only thing I would want for Ness at this point is maybe a better recovery since its still really bad.

 

[Izaniki]

I'm using Gecko.



...no. Again, 1.0 works just fine, but 1.5 doesn't seem to be applying. I've been checking with falcons down-B returning a jump, but is there a better way?

The DownB thing is included in the GCT, nothing to do with the PACs. If I were you, I'd backup anything I wanted to save (textures, music, etc.) and then wipe my whole card. Start from scratch. Then just put on the standard B- download. If it still messes up, it's probably a problem with your card itself (though, I don't think that'd be the case since 1.0 is working).

Just checking, you're using a 2GB or smaller SD(NOT SDHC) card, running Gecko OS 1.9.3(i think .3 is the newest), on NTSC version of the game?



Also, on the topic of 'overnerfing', some characters had such OP moves that they were being used to the exclusion of everything else (Ness fair), and that justifies a nerf, at least to the point where it's not always the best choice.

If you found yourself spamming one move and now you feel that your character is overnerfed, try changing how you're playing them and see if that works. Ask other people how they play them. Maybe there's something you're missing. Trust in the devs to know what they're doing