BBR Weekly Character Discussion #9: Marth

[Reizilla]

Shaya's jealous that the only thing he invented was the Shaya combo.

It's okay. We all pale in comparison to Pierce, Shaya

 

[Duskshadow]

If I am not mistaken, Shaya also invented "Shaya Mode."

 

[painlord k11]

shiz biz I shaya mode myself to many times trying to do cool shiz. But i hardly ever miss the ledge on places like PS, FD and lylat cruise.

 

[Blissard]

...like when a missed shaya mode dair off the ledge misses its targets and ends up with Marth plumetting to his death

I always have trouble with MK's punishing the lag of my Marth's dairs, as well as the landing lag glitch. it seems kinda unfair for MK to combo so easily, but Marth will fight the injustice with his white outfit and cool cape

 

[Shaya]

Reasonably serious topic guys.. keep things like shaya-mode to the social thread.

 

[lilseph]

Shaya's jealous that the only thing he invented was the Shaya combo.

It's okay. We all pale in comparison to Pierce, Shaya

If I am not mistaken, Shaya also invented "Shaya Mode."

Havn't heard of either of these ;D

(ok srs mode on)

 

[Reizilla]

Havn't heard of either of these ;D

(ok srs mode on)

*looks at join date*

(Not Pierce

obv)

 

[Pierce7d]

I don't care about the trolling tbh, but I'd just like to point out that I did NOT MM GNES at Apex, because I told him I was too rusty at the match-up. Playing with bananas against Diddy takes practice, and it was a good read, because when I'm rusty I do really dumb stuff like always stand up when I get hit by bananas . . . and get hit by bananas in the first place (rarely should happen.)

I did lose two friendlies though. Mike, if you'd like, I'll play him at Raleigh next week live. I think Wyatt will be there as well.

 

[Reizilla]

Spaaaaaaaaaaaaam

 

[Eddie G]

Alright so just from reading the information presented in this thread and especially Pierce's in-depth explanations on a lot of key points, I've been inspired to try and main Marth (with Peach as a MU-specific sub, a la Leon). I believe he relates to Peach in the high maintenance department but without the "completely hopeless MK matchup" piled on top. I've always been a player who values practice and precision, so Marth sounds like the perfect character for me. I've got some experience with the character under my belt already so I'm not starting completely from scratch, but I'll admit there are a lot of details that I'll need to learn and master.

Good read btw.

 

[clowsui]

@kb if there's any help you need don't hesitate to ask me on FB or text my cell (you do know it...right?), i have a pretty strong grasp on marth concept. i singlehandedly trained steel in the MK MU dontcha know ;D

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey Hey, Ness vs Marth is LOL or 65-35? Nice.

Edit: So the gist of this thread is that Marth is actually significantly better than most give him credit, and he'd be a show-in for 2nd or 3rd best character without MK? Hmm good to know.

 

[megamanX20X]

marth should stay right where he is, as much as i hate to say it but its true. he is a very easy character to edgehog and easy to gimp with alot of characters but he still doesn't have many bad match ups and his bad match ups aren't impossible

 

[ChaosDrifter]

marth has a slight advantage over every character above him tierwise, EXCEPT effing brokenknight (although I personally think marth v snake is 50/50 and marth does not have an advantage)

without MK, marth has potential for somewhere around 3rd imo

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Reads Pierce's post.

*tear rolls down my cheek

You have learned well young one.

*Flips my cape back as I walk away.

 

[Player-3]

FIRST POST AFTER eL

 

[C.J.]

Why doesn't he post more
=(

 

[Nike.]

Marth is one of the best characters in the game, and definitely the most under rated character in the game. He's probably better than every other character except Metaknight and Snake, though not significantly so.

Can somebody please spell out Marth's weaknesses? I don't see many that the character himself (So no match-up difficulties, just flaws the character has) has aside from his punishable recovery. I personally think he is 4th or 5th in the game, but maybe it is because I can't really see his weaknesses too well...

He doesn't have many weaknesses and the ones he does have aren't very significant because of his other tools/options.

He's easily top 4 or top 5. Again I think he's better than everyone but MK and Snake, so I'd put him at 3rd, but I imagine there will be resistance to that since so many people under-rate him.

I think it can be considered a weakness to not have a projectile in a game where most other top characters do. Marth has the tools to deal with being forced to approach because his spacing can be kept safe, but he really has no way to force the opponent to approach other than gaining a lead. Matchupwise I think Mr.R only considers Dedede to be (somewhat) bad and my own opinion is that Marth has a very good matchup chart overall, although I would say he also has a small disadvantage vs MK. The character does well in European tournaments (where character variety is quite balanced) and I think he needs to be a little higher on the tier list.

. . .

I actually think he's the second best character in the game right now. Eh, third. Falco is gay. Snake sucks.

I think MK, Snake, and Diddy are better than Marth. They have more universal options to destroy everything. Marth is a solid 4 for me though, I don't think Falco or IC are better.

Alot of BBR's and marth mains thought marth would finally make top5, while some felt he should stay where he is. Multiple people called highly underrated. So many comparisons were made with Snake/Diddy/Falco. There was a discussion on how bad marth beat's wario, and everybody accepted that he's better than IC's.

So what happened? How did Marth stay in the same place, while Wario made a rise over him?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Alot of BBR's and marth mains thought marth would finally make top5, while some felt he should stay where he is. Multiple people called highly underrated. So many comparisons were made with Snake/Diddy/Falco. There was a discussion on how bad marth beat's wario, and everybody accepted that he's better than IC's.

So what happened? How did Marth stay in the same place, while Wario made a rise over him?

I was expecting him to rise as well, but unfortunately a lot of members still voted him lower and most of those members did not contribute much if anything at all to the character discussions. It's an unfortunate issue where many people will take the time to make a tier list but never take the time to really read arguments or post their thoughts.

I don't like that any more than you do, but often requests for more "backing up" of opinions are met with no response or a rude response. At the same time, we would also get criticized for kicking those players out because a lot of them are "reputable".

I'm not saying that no one who voted Marth low made good points, but many of them didn't really address their lists overall, not just regarding Marth.

I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with Marth's current placement, but I did expect him to rise above it. Oh well, there's always next time

I also very much expected Peach to rise, but she didn't either.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Alot of BBR's and marth mains thought marth would finally make top5, while some felt he should stay where he is. Multiple people called highly underrated. So many comparisons were made with Snake/Diddy/Falco. There was a discussion on how bad marth beat's wario, and everybody accepted that he's better than IC's.

So what happened? How did Marth stay in the same place, while Wario made a rise over him?

This thing called metagame.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Oh **** more EL.

I vote EL for marth mod over shaya if he comes back

 

[Reizilla]

I second that motion.

 

[basvhout]

D3 is his worst matchup for sure. you just need EXCELLENT spacing to win against a D3.

I think the 6th place of marth is ook good spot. Cause I do believe falco and diddy are beter. I know the matchups aren't that bad for marth. But I really think diddy got alot of potential.

And against snake it's important to not get Dthrowed to ftilt/chase cause you'll lose like 1/3 of your stock and you will need a juggle of 4 attacks to make it even. Also his Breversal is a pitty against a juggling marths. Also marth really love to pick up granades with his fair, really enoying against a snake that camps alot with granades.

The matchup vs MK is not bad i guess... got alot of grabreleases and a view good tippers have enough knockback to take him out.

 

[Nike.]

Whoops wrong thread

 

[Pierce7d]

I didn't vote Marth 2. I think I voted him like 6, with like MK, Falco, Diddy, Snake, & IC above him.

 

[AuraStUrm]

I didn't vote Marth 2. I think I voted him like 6, with like MK, Falco, Diddy, Snake, & IC above him.

What happened, Pierce? You made so many great points about why he should be third.

I personally see Marth as around 4th best, below you-know-who, Snake, and Falco. Basically everything that Pierce laid out in that huge (but awesome) wall of text outlines my opinion - he has every single tool he needs in order to win, but needs to be played extremely well in order to do so. The main thing holding his metagame back is the fact that, rather than putting a ton of time into the character and being really good, a player can put the same amount of time into Metaghey and be way better. Still, Marth really is a lot better than a lot of people give him credit for.

I don't really think the D3 matchup is that bad (it's at MOST 45:55 his favor), but I'm not 100% confident in the matchup. Marth's worst matchup is definitely that one Knight guy, for the simple reason that the Marth needs to be VERY, VERY precise in order to win - Meta Knight simply has more options in more situations. Other than those two, Marth's matchups are excellent, only going even with DK, Zamus (I loathe her with all my soul), and R.O.B. I honestly don't see why so many people think Marth loses to Diddy - both characters have the tools they need to win, but Diddy can't really handle Marth's pressure and loses when he doesn't have control of his Naners.

 

[Pierce7d]

I realize when I am underestimating the tools of certain characters, especially movement related tools.

 

[6Mizu]

6th is definitely the best spot for Marth.

 

[Anaky]

I think Marth would be suited better as 5th, what makes him slightly worse than Wario? There on par but i cant see why Wario is slightly better.

 

[Shaya]

They were pretty much equal in tier list voting.
Don't get too chalked up over him being 1 spot above when it would have been feasible to have them tied 5th.

 

[Nike.]

Here's the answer I got (I hope this isn't leaking, by all means edit it if it's past borderline):

1. There were higher swings and higher falls for Wario on the list. Some people actually put Wario at #2 or #3 on their list. More people did that for Wario than for Marth (someone put him #3 I think, and a few #4's, but that was it). Most spots for Marth were either where he is now, or lower. A few other people had him kinda low under IC's and Pika/Olimar which I thought was silly.

2. Judging how people in general voted, there was more emphasis on dynamic characters than "flat" characters for the upper tiers. People are looking more for dynamic matchup swings/advantages with the top tiers than characters like Marth who have above average matchups/evenish or slightly better overall with most top tiers. I think the only reason people put IC's below Marth was their stage weakness. The exceptions to this are people like Dedede and G&W who are fairly linear but still really strong at what they do.

But yeah results wise, Wario is only slightly ahead of Marth even though I don't think there's really a Wario out there who is matching Mike Haze or Havok when he plays Marth in tournament results. There are more "pretty good" Wario players playing than Marth players, but the top Marth players are probably doing better than Wario overall.

 

[Shaya]

what?

that's like the opposite (the voting part) of the truth.
kinda..

there were QUITE a few people who voted him 2nd-4th. However he also had quite a few people placing him considerably lower.

I don't recall Wario getting much 2nd/3rds at all...

 

[makoforce]

honestly i think marth deserves like 3rd below mk, diddy, falco. No one above him really averages what marths average besides say MK and diddy. Falco hasn't really did anything since apex. Snakes results have been **** lately and wario gets ***** by over ranged pivot grab. And as far as IC's go they have the smallest grab range on the game and they are so stage limited, if they arent on SV or FD they are at a disadvantage. atm there is no other character pulling 2nd place more than marth behind MK of course.

 

[Pierce7d]

honestly i think marth deserves like 3rd below mk, diddy, falco.

I stopped reading here

 

[makoforce]

ah i meant to say fourth lol.

 

[xxmoosexx]

I see marth as having the ability to overcome any "bad" matchups.

Marth is a character that has great raw potential and can be taken to the top with the right player.

 

[shieldbreaker]

Of course, with so many MKs out there , he should be getting lots of practice in, right?

 

[makoforce]

well IMO marths only bad MU's are diddy and MK. D3 is hella easy to me.

 

[Geenareeno]

Then you obviously aren't playing good DDDs because that is his hardest matchup.

 

[makoforce]

maybe ^_-b