BBR Weekly Character Discussion #9: Marth

[OverLade]

^Theorycraft.

Just sayin. You can't explain a matchup on paper and account for a players inability to always react correctly and guess perfectly. Diddy does so much damage from one connecting banana that the number of mix ups you have to win to maintain a lead (as well as basically not let Diddy get back to the ground) is huge when you actually factor in that Diddy can repel your pressure even without bananas.

The scenario you're describing requires marth to OUTPLAY the diddy kong player because it's read specific. He doesn't have "guaranteed" scenarios or particularly strong frametraps that allow him to stay in control like he does vs snake.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Marth's worst match ups are probably MK, DDD, Wolf.

Edited. Wolf vs Marth is 55-45 Wolf's favor.

 

[Player-3]

Edited. Wolf vs Marth is 55-45 Wolf's favor.

yea, but marth:diddy is 40:60

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

^Theorycraft.

Just sayin. You can't explain a matchup on paper and account for a players inability to always react correctly and guess perfectly. Diddy does so much damage from one connecting banana that the number of mix ups you have to win to maintain a lead (as well as basically not let Diddy get back to the ground) is huge when you actually factor in that Diddy can repel your pressure even without bananas.

The scenario you're describing requires marth to OUTPLAY the diddy kong player because it's read specific. He doesn't have "guaranteed" scenarios or particularly strong frametraps that allow him to stay in control like he does vs snake.

^this, thank god

 

[Shaya]

Edited. Wolf vs Marth is 55-45 Wolf's favor.

They really see me trollan'

 

[GimR]

This is a response to something pierce said on page 2, I haven't read past that




Seriosuly no way Marth is top 3. Can we please get Neo in here. lol

I'm sorry pierce, you're a really smart guy. You know your stuff. But it seems like a lot of stuff you say is always in theory and you haven't really fleshed it out in the game to realize your theories' flaws.


Here's something Neo told me which I feel is 100% true about the match up.

If Diddy is out of Marth's grab range with a Naner in hand he can just shield.

If Marth shields, Diddy can glide toss the Naner down towards marth and it will shield poke him and give diddy free hit.

If marth attacks diddy he will get hit by a banana.


Plus the fact that Marth can't pick up a banana when standing right next to it causes a real problem.

I do agree with you though that many match ups would improve if people would just learn to insta-throw bananas effectively.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Pierce is the general play style that marth will be utilizing against diddy similar to that of Metaknight? I would imagine it would be

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They really see me trollan'

He's not actually trolling though.

 

[Shaya]

You guys came to that conclusion out of no where (I'd like to see you guys explain it, but you guys haven't, you just say it like its fact, hence it's trolling) and as I get to play the wolf match up more than just about any other marth (and against pretty much the ONLY WOLF who contributes points to him in tournament) I'm definitely of the opinion of "haha no".

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tedeth is neither "pretty much the only Wolf who contributes points to him in tournament" (not that it matters in the first place) nor is mid-level play a good indicator of how a match-up works. Seagull's Wolf is a lot better than Tedeth who has made most points for Wario anyway these days. It might be trolling but he's actually being serious about the match-up being in Wolf's favour. We're not huge fans of Super Theory Brothers Brawl though (hence none of us being in the BBR) so I guess it doesn't matter what we say.

Btw: the "top scorers" for Wolf are Choice, AC, Kain and to a lesser extent JJWolf, Seagull and Holms. I wish Tedeth would still be among them...

 

[Punishment Divine]

I wouldn't outright discredit Pierce's theories. He DOES play the matchup a lot and, to be fair, I see a lot of people who play a lot of characters that play against Diddy incorrectly.

If anything we might just need to work on it more. I know that crouching Diddy's fair, which I did NOT know before, will certainly help in the least as it reduces what is my personal BANE in the matchup. It also takes away a key move in escaping Marth's pressure.

I've seen Marth **** Diddy when he has the momentum, and I've seen Marth cover Diddy's ledge options but I think the point we're all not seeing here is just...well how the hell do we approach Diddy? lol

If Diddy is out of Marth's grab range with a Naner in hand he can just shield.

If Marth shields, Diddy can glide toss the Naner down towards marth and it will shield poke him and give diddy free hit.

If marth attacks diddy he will get hit by a banana.


Plus the fact that Marth can't pick up a banana when standing right next to it causes a real problem.

I think Neo is right when he says this and I simply don't understand how Marth can beat Diddy in a neutral position which I find he can EASILY force for a majority of the match. Marth can give Diddy the **** but if the Diddy is patient enough I feel like he can simply cover all of Marth's approach options and to do all the **** stuff we can do in the matchup we kind of have to get in =/

 

[Shaya]

mainly because aussie results stop being reported because I'm lazy
He would still contribute a strong majority otherwise lol.

But saying it's wolf's advantage means nothing to me. Doesn't need to be "theory bros" like you put it, but if there's a way a character like Marth can actually lose (because herpa derpa the character has options coming out of his ***) it's usually explainable.

If something is applicable realistically, it can be explained; in the case of brawl at least.
Whether it be "yeah Marth can never kill Wolf he has absolutely no way to do it, we also have all this gay **** on marth like a cg to the edge to a free edge guard" etc etc

just saying it doesn't make it true.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Pierce: I'm down to play, but you gotta bring the wii (and hope the hotel has av inputs). For me I learned all my anti-Marth stuff from just playing a few friendlies with MikeHaze/Neo. Neo mainly taught me what to watch for. There aren't many Marth's in the MW ... Online has also helped me a lot since there are many online Marths. In general played correctly I think Diddy has a slight advantage. It's up to Marth to approach while Diddy can just punish everything OoS. That give Diddy a big edge that is really only negated somewhat because Marth has great edge guarding versus Diddy and can also punish Diddy harder then most characters can (% wise, getting the KO not so much).

 

[mikeHAZE]

az, lets meet up at the mlg hotel and record some stuff

 

[Blacknight99923]

question are we refering to a neutral situation with bananas? because to be honest thats not exactly default since diddy has to pull his bananas in the first place.

To be honest did Marth mains say snake covered marths landings and options to the point where snake beat marth back in 08 when we thought snake was a marth counter? Because if it is it wouldn't suprise me that if marths finally figure out how they need to start playing the match up (like pierce says) that marth would beat diddy.

I'm inclined to trust pierce over any individual analysis on the match up because he plays it so often.

 

[clowsui]

Pierce: I'm down to play, but you gotta bring the wii (and hope the hotel has av inputs). For me I learned all my anti-Marth stuff from just playing a few friendlies with MikeHaze/Neo. Neo mainly taught me what to watch for. There aren't many Marth's in the MW ... Online has also helped me a lot since there are many online Marths. In general played correctly I think Diddy has a slight advantage. It's up to Marth to approach while Diddy can just punish everything OoS. That give Diddy a big edge that is really only negated somewhat because Marth has great edge guarding versus Diddy and can also punish Diddy harder then most characters can (% wise, getting the KO not so much).

No Marths in the Midwest means no Beegs, right?

Also Steel Samurai is here at home waiting to put a blade at your punk-*** monkey neck :3 I think he'll lose, but let's see the result...

 

[Blacknight99923]

and training against marth on wifi isn't really that helpful since marth on wifi does different things (abiet diddy probably does too but...)

 

[Toby.]

Didn't seagull lose to Don?

Not that it matters

 

[Shaya]

If In fact seagull lost to D0N, whilst D0N only won one tournament set against ted's wolf out of like 5....
......

 

[Toby.]

Actually I think that was meep i was thinking of. DON beat meep, but I don't think he got to play seagull...?

tiiired

 

[Shaya]

I heard about D0N beating some Wolfs.
I believe candy was one of them... Heard he beat some others too.

There's still so much stupidity in "seagull said its in our favour",
so you just outright believe him, why?
Trying to avoid theory crafting my ***.

 

[tibs7]

D0N won a tournament like 2-3days ago, hes mad legit.

 

[Player-3]

he beat me

it was close first game last stock last hit, then game 2 i got stomped on RC because i ****ed up and sded twice at like 20 xD

accidental buffering dairs from dtilts on the falling blocks ftl

 

[tibs7]

if you lose to D0N you would lose to me,toby,ted and shaya. team aus right there.

 

[Player-3]

he was the first dk i've ever played

matchup knowledge gap johns

i'm fairly confident me vs shaya would be an amazing set as i'm pretty beast in marth dittos :o

and i beat diddys usually as long as they don't abuse their up b against me while i'm recovering

does toby play marth or pt? cuz i won't lose to his pt LOL

tedeth prolly since i suck **** agaisnt wolf

 

[tibs7]

what... dont you lose to P1's diddy? i havent seen you in top 10 for a GA tourny i dont think.

and what is your aim?

 

[Player-3]

player100718

i've never gotten him in tournament and in friendlys all we do is **** around.. and we both owe eachother a ****-ton of money from "mms" lmfao so idk it'd be pretty close

i lose to dededes.

every time.

i've never beaten a ddd in tournament.

i'm too stubborn to just go mk lol because i'm getting so close to winning

aka, i had a 170% lead first stock on halberd (170 to 0)

then i let him land, he grabs me, and i lost a stock


i placed 9th last tournament i got out of pools...(three months ago? idk, may) would have made at least 7th but had to leave before i could play game 2 (after breaking his shield twice first game lol)

and last tourny i was going to make it out of pools... but the place changed up the way they do pools from the usual so i ended up getting 4th seed.

 

[_Kain_]

If you wanna see how Wolf does vs Marth look at Atomsk pretty sure I remember him takin out a lot of Marth's in MM's with his Wolf. Also I played MikeHaze in a MM at MLG was pretty close still lost. I'd say its an even MU

 

[Toby.]

I remember how whenever I played DON he was like "WHAT IS THIS TURTLE ****, FUUUUUUUU"

Such fond memories.

P-3 would beat me because marth has a sword and pokemon trainer does not. He's probably better at the marth ditto than me as well, so there go both my characters

 

[Player-3]

P-3 would beat me because marth has a sword and pokemon trainer does not.

yes

that's exactly why lol

and i know how to abuse it too

 

[Shaya]

P3 sucks against PT.

Toby would **** him like he ***** Dojo.

 

[tibs7]

Who is Dojo?

amirite

 

[Shaya]

And Havok.

Till I taught him the match up.

 

[Toby.]

I also taught havok certain aspects of the matchup.

It was all part of my quest to discover whether PT was worth using against good players who understood the matchup. The answer was no <3

 

[Shaya]

Wasn't it great when havok was like "man I don't know how you beat this guy at all man",

this was when he was losing (was like at kill percents stock 2, whilst you weren't doing do bad with 3 stocks).

A nicely succinct phrase turned that frown upside down.

I loved how he had issues with ivysaur though.

 

[Toby.]

He owned me pretty hard once he knew what to do :O

I miss Havok

 

[mikeHAZE]

toby


did we play ?

 

[mikeHAZE]

If you wanna see how Wolf does vs Marth look at Atomsk pretty sure I remember him takin out a lot of Marth's in MM's with his Wolf. Also I played MikeHaze in a MM at MLG was pretty close still lost. I'd say its an even MU

are you going to raleigh? lets re mm, that was fun

 

[Toby.]

yeah but you weren't really paying attention

we played the day of havok's house tournament where DSF lost (to you I think...?) and then yelled out "SHOULD I EVEN GO TO GENESIS?!"

that might jog your memory

 

[mikeHAZE]

did i win?


(my memory from those days is bad to non existent)