-Ran
Smash Master
The Smash tier list is based on potential in the current Meta Game. That's how it was in Melee as well. Smash players have the mentality that if it is possible, the best will strive to make it habit.
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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #5: Snake
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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Just sort of quoting this from here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028
Felt like a good time to show this considering this is the general public we are talking about and I am getting the feeling that many are not getting the full picture over just what the meaing of tier list really is.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
I'm just lacking in the new MK MU, I'll be ready for Apex. People who complain aren't technically scrubs, I don't think TKD is any better for only going to easy victims who doesn't know much about Fox and thinks he's someone amazing now. Scrub from mexico ARIBA ARIBA go to Apex / MLGS or SUPERCON.
hope you know the olimar mu ally, cause brood is gonna **** apex 
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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- May 10, 2008
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- 7,215
hope you know the life mu ally, cause your ****.
TKD beatshigh tiers easy victims with fox right? well, he's still better then you lolololol
TKD beats
But the game doesn't work that way. Some matchups are impossible regardless of how good one player is with Ganon because Ganon's attacks are slower than average reaction speed. For the most part the pinnacle of how good you can be with Ganon has been reached, but even if it was pushed past, Ganon wouldn't place top 7 in national tournaments.
You have to factor in how good a character is at the regular top level, AND how realistic is performing at that level...
MK happens to be the best AND the easiest to perform consistently with which is why he's seen as a problem.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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keep in mind that a tier list doesnt exactly reflect how good each character is, but rather how good each character is in regards to the current metagame, and how they influence and are influenced by the current metagame.
a good example is japan, where fox is high tier.
fox is a rather good character and would be higher but he is severly hurt by his matchups against pikachu and sheik (and ic's lol)
however in japan, one of thier regular tourney rules is that you pick 1 character and have to stay that character all tourney which prevents pikachu from being cp'd against fox because with alot of marth players (which would be very good in a system like that due to having basically no bad matchups) pika gets marth ***** early and fox players can avoid being gay'd like that.
both cases its the same character but his posisition is different due to different metagames.
a good example is japan, where fox is high tier.
fox is a rather good character and would be higher but he is severly hurt by his matchups against pikachu and sheik (and ic's lol)
however in japan, one of thier regular tourney rules is that you pick 1 character and have to stay that character all tourney which prevents pikachu from being cp'd against fox because with alot of marth players (which would be very good in a system like that due to having basically no bad matchups) pika gets marth ***** early and fox players can avoid being gay'd like that.
both cases its the same character but his posisition is different due to different metagames.
HolyNightmare
Smash Champion
Oh look! TKD's fanboy numero dos! And anyone decent could win TKD's tournament filled with scrubs such as the region you currently live according to Shaya.
HolyNightmare
Smash Champion
I'm auto-pro as I use MK, son you have much yet to learn.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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- 7,215
well your post didnt make much sense, but I got the general gist of it
anyone could win a tourney in mexico or australia right?
because usa is number 1.
ok then, I'm going to go find a mentally disabled person, teach him metaknight and have him beat everyone in australia, failing that I'm going to laugh at you, but you wont care anyway because you'll be too busy looking in the mirror.
have fun with that
anyone could win a tourney in mexico or australia right?
because usa is number 1.
ok then, I'm going to go find a mentally disabled person, teach him metaknight and have him beat everyone in australia, failing that I'm going to laugh at you, but you wont care anyway because you'll be too busy looking in the mirror.
have fun with that
Albert.
Smash Master
**** he told this n**** to look in the mirror!
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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the correct response was to point out that he said decent players, to which we all acuse whoever pointed it out of saying disabled people arnt decent and that they are a horrible horrible person, in retrospect it was a pretty **** comeback, but the important thing is that I found it amusing.
Underload
Lazy
If this were a real thead on the Snake boards, I'd be warning, infracting, and maybe locking. Is this what the BBR is really like? Take your work seriously.
ive never heard of japanese tournies where they have to stick to one character (except wifi tourneys, which no one takes seriously anyway). also consider that two of the best players in japan main fox and pit respectively, and suddenly their tier list makes sense. as much as we say 'we dont base the tier list on top players', quite frankly, we really do. i mean, let's see...
m2k, ally, adhd, dehf...
mk, snake, diddy, falco...
wow!
Good read, not etecoon's ****, but the disagreement on Snake's ability among top 5. Also, learning curve is ridiculous at top level play it's true. Watching Swordgard's video, saw a lot of conditioned defensive habits from Joker. Good ****.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
WTF, so you think Snake have trouble against all the top 5 character? I'll agree that MK beats Snake slightly, but there's no evidence at all that Falco, Diddy, or ICs have any advantage against Snake.
And to back up your argument you refer to how a "top" play gets beat for having habits? That has nothing to do with Snake at all. Anyways Snake still places better than ICs or Falcos clearly, and probably around the same as Diddy, though Snakes probably still places higher.
And LOL at Snake having a high learning curve. Sure Snake has less anti-juggle stuff then most other top tiers, but his options cover more of the offensive options. IMO it makes Snake easier to play because your basically playing rock-paper-scissors with less choices.
I don't disagree with the fact that Snake is overrated by many and may go down a spot (but no way he's going down any further). Just that this post doesn't make any sense to me at all.
if this is what you genuinely think, then you sir, are a noob.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- 19,346
In way, that is true what Yume says. Snake's options are indeed limited. Most everything is punished by a ftilt, grab or dash attack with Utilt to kill. Anything else is grenades, dodge, roll or shield. All his other moves are situational to edgeguarding for the most part.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I feel like Snake has an average learning curve. He's simple for the most part but requires some thought to make proper use of his projectiles. In some cases you ca get away with just spamming Grenades and in other cases (Olimar and D3) where you need to be precise. That takes some practice. His most important aspects such as his stage control game and his grab game aren't just pick up and play really. But he has relatively simple tools like F-Tilt that just scream "Punisher" and theres other examples. We don't have many mixups either. Dair and D-Tilt are our standard mixups. Everything else has its "proper" uses.
ok, stop right there.
can someone tell me, 'why are nades good'? i mean, they don't have a hitbox for three seconds, they bounce off people when they hit them, they can be run over on the ground, they can be used against us AND they hit us too. when you stop and think about it, you have to wonder why they work so well. that is, of course, because we can create pressure and traps with this projectile, something that only diddy can also do. we control the stage with 'potential', rather than force or large hitboxes. there isnt a direct threat behind them, but we occupy a space, and control a threat that can make the opponent respond in certain (incorrect) ways. and that is something unique to snake, and extremely difficult to do correctly. logically, nades shouldn't ever hit anyone. but they do because of potential that surrounds them.
anyone who thinks that that is easy to do is a scrub.
can someone tell me, 'why are nades good'? i mean, they don't have a hitbox for three seconds, they bounce off people when they hit them, they can be run over on the ground, they can be used against us AND they hit us too. when you stop and think about it, you have to wonder why they work so well. that is, of course, because we can create pressure and traps with this projectile, something that only diddy can also do. we control the stage with 'potential', rather than force or large hitboxes. there isnt a direct threat behind them, but we occupy a space, and control a threat that can make the opponent respond in certain (incorrect) ways. and that is something unique to snake, and extremely difficult to do correctly. logically, nades shouldn't ever hit anyone. but they do because of potential that surrounds them.
anyone who thinks that that is easy to do is a scrub.
tibs7
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,886
When you say they shouldn't hit anyone....just proves how stupid you are. If the opponent isn't really aware of how cooked the grenade is or they are well timed grenades, they will most likely hit the opponent. the opponent naturally has a way harder time with handling grenades than you do.
read the whole message, understand it, then post. save yourself looking like a noob.
dont make me get ally to come in here shut you down again.
dont make me get ally to come in here shut you down again.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
OH SNAP.
**** is getting real mofukkaz.
**** is getting real mofukkaz.
RATED
Smash Lord
stop playing snake.
are people ********, or just illiterate?
read the whole freakin post.
read the whole freakin post.
Albert.
Smash Master
Good job taking a single line out of context.
You should work for the Republican slander machine
RATED
Smash Lord
I "analized" the whole post. is just that single line full of Lulz and ********.
edit:
bye thread, this discussion is stupid -___- . People talking like they knew the character.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Only low level players don't take into consideration the timing of Snake's grenades during a match. They're easily Snake's most used move. If you can't take the time out to count to 4 in your head, watch the clock to see when 26.5 is approaching for C4 to detonate itself or 25 seconds to see when the landmine disappears then you'll have issues. But at the very least most players watch the grenades. And honestly its not hard to throw back cooked grenades or shield them or reflect them in some characters' cases. Seriously its kind of hard to hit with a single grenade. Why do you think we use so many of them during a match and use stage control. Its because we have to setup for them or corner them most of the time. If grenades were so easy to hit with then go ahead and play a skilled opponent and just chuck a single grenade at them and see what the results are lol
These are not Falco's lasers.
Seriously people should actually look at entire posts before dissecting one part of it and trying to start a flame war. It's dumb and its detrimental to the point of this thread.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
Obviously if you are obvious with your grenade game, your opponent will get past that easily and pwn you. But the design of Snake's nade makes it so that you have a million ways to use them. It is entirely feasible to mix up your nade game well enough to hit even ppl who knows everything about Snake's nades.
Underload
Lazy
...I can infract people in this, right? This thread is technically in the forum I mod.
K. This is ridiculous, people are going to start getting infracted unless you all shape the **** up.
K. This is ridiculous, people are going to start getting infracted unless you all shape the **** up.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Getting hit by grenades usually means you messed up. It's really easy not to get hit by grenades, and if all he wrote in his post was "you should never get hit by grenades" I'd be perfectly happy with that lol...
I didn't say I thought he had trouble against the top five. I agreed he is not always going to be 2nd in the developing Brawl metagame, and it might come down to where he should be in top five.
Also...I said Joker had good defensive habits, and when I said that I meant he was a good player. I didn't say he gets beat for having habits. And it wasn't out of nowhere because I was referencing the LINK that was POSTED earlier in the thread.
I play Junk's D3 and Metaknight a lot lately, and when I said Snake has a high learning curve I was biasing on the basis of that. Getting juggled 70% of the time is quite frustrating, and it probably is because he knows my landing habits too well, but that still adds to the fact that it takes a great learning curve to develop several habits that work for recovering from different situations.
Chill with the attacking of a post you don't even read correctly.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 991
That must explain your success Holy, since TJ is considerably better than Quebecy 'scrubs' (in your opinion), and from what I hear your regions only produced 3 good players and thats if Ally is included.
I agree with TKD though. People laugh at M2K for saying diddy or so and so is better than metaknight, they call into question his skill, knowledge, and make jokes about needing to practice MUs when he already practices more than just about everyone.
Yet when Ally QQs about how hard marth or wario is a lot of people dont question his skill or knowledge of the matchup, they question the character snake itself! Im pretty sure Ally's even admitted he never practices anymore. Yet he wants us to automatically accept that snake is worse just because he does poorly sometimes, and as opposed to crediting Hunger or Mike as being more skilled, he automatically points to the matchup as the "problem" and a ton of people fall in line.
you're not accounting for the fact that many of us play MK and snake too and everyone has their own predispositions, that's where a lot of the criticism comes from. most snake players will tell you wario and marth are hard matchups, most MK players will NOT tell you that diddy beats MK. people that play snake identify with ally's position more than people who play MK do for M2K, that's why they are perceived differently
(diddy is ****ing annoying though)
(diddy is ****ing annoying though)
It's not safe on shield vs ANY character. Everyone can either grab Snake or has a good OOS option.
The reality is most people don't react fast enough to tell whether a Ftilt has successfully connected if they wait every single time (before the hitstun from the Ftilt wears off). Luckily you don't just walk up to someone and Ftilt you only Ftilt when you see lag or expect it to connect.