Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Eldiran]

Changing Snake's weight and hitboxes has been discussed before. It isn't going to be happening, for a couple reasons.

Snake's hitboxes aren't going to be fixed because that requires editing hitboxes, which BBrawl is adamantly against. Editing a hitbox requires relearning the spacing, which is something that should come intuitively and remain unchanged from vBrawl to BBrawl.

Snake's weight (or anyone's weight) won't be changed because that affects how they react to almost every attack in the game. It has very, very far-reaching consequences for relatively little gain.

EDIT: I also concur Bowser Bomb is just fine as it is. He already has Dair for a safer option to come down from above.

 

[G.D.]

I'm holding fastly to the belief that Bowser Bomb doesn't need that sort of buff. If anything, it would need to deal more damage, have more knockback, or have armor while it's falling, but I still think any of those would be an unnecessary stretch.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Bowser Bomb also already does a ton of shield damage; you can only really block it if your shield is healthy. The role of the shockwave is to nail people who spotdodge; I think it's fine.

 

[shanus]

if your going to add crazy illusion shenanigans and the like, whats wrong with editing hitboxes?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It has to do with the kind of changing thought process demanded. Canceling Illusion is largely a strategic shift and isn't really as extreme as it seems at first. A hitbox being 10% bigger or smaller or whatever is a subconscious shift; the shape of your hitboxes is nearly as fundamental to your character as their physics and whatnot, stuff we very much have no intention whatsoever of changing since it's a million times more extreme than it seems at first.

There is also no balance reason Snake needs smaller hitboxes. It's just one of Snake's gimmicks; Snake has a lot working against him in addition to a lot working for him so it's all good.

 

[JOE!]

Riddle me this:

how an "his equpiment" be used as any sort of excuse when SAMUS ARAN, who is bigger and in a full POWER SUIT is lighter than him?

 

[PKNintendo]

Simple.

Snake is a lardass.

 

[JOE!]

meh, anyways, we have a chat apparently?

 

[IrohDW]

Can we please stop arguing about snake's weight. We've already had this discussion and AA has said multiple times that it will never be changed. We should be focusing on real changes that need to be made before the next release.

As far as Bowser Bomb is concerned, I think that all it needs is for the first hit to combo into the second better.

 

[Nakihito]

i want to ask which characters do you think are specificly giving Ike a MU worse than 60:40? (besides Olimar)

the only characters Ike will possible have trouble with are: Marth, Lucario (prob 57:43) and Olimar (possible worse than 60:40 simply due to nature of chars but not as ridiculous as before)

other than that Quickdraw handles getting gimped so easily so Ike works like he did in vBrawl besides against . He might be on the lower end but that's a character design flaw in the end.

I firmly believe Ike can work around all the characters here.

No way those are the only match ups Ike has trouble in. Lucario v. Ike was 60:40 Lucario in vBrawl. It could have only gotten worse for Ike considering the only thing that Ike got that could really affect the match up was QD, and even then Lucario still has Aura Spheres to shut that down. Lucario's fsmash and Aura Sphere already wrecked Ike if he didn't perfectly space Aether when recovering, and now that fsmash is buffed and killing earlier I can't imagine Ike recovering back onstage without at least taking some damage. Trying to QD recover doesn't change much. Lucario's dtilt hits low enough and far enough that it'll hit Ike out of the QD before him snaps to the ledge (although they may trade sometimes, but that's a trade Ike doesn't want). Bair can also be used to stage spike Ike while he jumps up during Aether. Lucario can also just toss out an Aura Sphere while Ike is charging QD forcing him to recover lower which sets up for an Aether recovery.

If Lucario chooses to follow Ike offstage, then Ike has to watch out for the fair pseudo-wall-of-pain, nairs, and dairs. Fair can be used to gimp because it links into itself, Aura Sphere, nair (must be used relatively high up because of the end lag), and sometimes dair. It can also be used to bait an air dodge and then lead into dair for the kill/gimp.

Considering Lucario is surprisingly heavy and that Ike cannot edge guard him very efficiently, Lucario's going to be making it back onstage quite easily. While on the other hand, Ike will have trouble getting past fsmash, Aura Sphere, dtilt, and fair/dair/nair if Lucario chooses to follow him off stage. In short: offstage, Lucario wins.

Onstage, Ike has jab, fair, nair, and maybe bair. Ike's aerials out range all of Lucario's, however, they come out so slowly that Lucario has more than enough time to move in and start a fair combo, move out of range, or PS. Fair is Ike's most used zoning tool here. This is unfortunate because it sucks and is easily PSed or punished when blocked. I think Ike's nair trades with or is out ranged by Lucario's ftilt which comes out 3 frames faster, can be angled upwards, and deals more damage when both hits connect. Not a good trade for Ike especially because nair sets up for nothing except jab (DIable) or Ike's terrible throws (sets up for nothing). Bair leads to nothing, doesn't kill that well, is out ranged by Lucario's fsmash, and has terrible ending lag. Oh, and Ike cannot juggle Lucario. Ike's uair and utilt are both out ranged by Lucario's dair. Sure, he can try to usmash, but it comes out too slowly and Lucario can get away for a reset.

Lucario's onstage game consists of dtilt and ftilt to punish stupid approaches and to poke, Aura Sphere to force said stupid approaches, lingering and powerful smashes with relatively little end lag to kill, aerials to combo/juggle, and good throws for emergency kills and set ups. His jab can also be canceled into a Force Palm pseudo-chain grab at low percentage or into Force Palm for a kill or to knock Ike offstage at high percentages. Lucario wins onstage.

Let's not forget that Lucario grows stronger with more damage and that Ike's moves are PSable on reaction/predictable (fair, fsmash, usmash, ftilt, dtilt, QD, Counter, Eruption), don't kill (dsmash, utilt, nair, jab, dair, Aether), rely on his piss poor maneuverability to score a hit (bair, fair, uair), or will be stale by the time Lucario is at kill percentages (fair, nair, jab, bair). Lucario wins at kills and damage racking and has an easier time making a come back. This is probably 65:35, maybe 60:40 Lucario.

As for the Marth match up: nothing changed. Nothing that would really affect the match up changed. Ike gained a better QD. Whooo!!! Doesn't help when Marth can swat Ike out of the move with any aerial, jab, utilt, ftilt, or, well, anything really. The lowered damage on Marth's fair just means Marth does slightly less damage zoning Ike. Ike still has no way of getting past Marth's sword wall and still has no way of killing him reliably. Marth can get past Eruption at the edge with ledge hop air dodge (which he can actually do safely now because he doesn't suffer the DS landing lag now), DS staling (If done right, you have maybe 5 frames of vulnerability), ledge stalling, or ledge hop DS (Ike has 11 frames before the hit box comes out while DS takes abut 11 frames to get to its apex). Yeah, this one is going to stay 65:35 or worse for Ike.

tl;dr
Lucario wins all-around.
Marth v. Ike didn't change.
Honestly, it would be easy to make a list of characters that Ike does not go 40:60 or worse with. Just off the top of my head, without any heavy analysis, and probably underestimating some characters, I'd say Ike does not go 40:60 with the following characters: Bowser, IC, Falcon, Jiggs, Luigi, Zamus, Ness, and Lucas.

A lot of players would have to re-memorize when their kill moves would safely KO Snake, and Snake players would have to adjust accordingly as well.

Not a valid argument considering we have someone like Mario who went for having one kill move to at least three. Every time a move gets a knock back or damage buff, you have to re-memorize kill percentages. Even Snake's kill moves were changed, so players already have to re-learn when they can kill, with what, and against who.

Lucario's counter was always crap in my opinion. The counter frames are so awkward that its more like trying to counter with Ike than it is like trying to counter with Marth. All three of these characters have better options most of the time anyways. Its also pretty weak that Lucario's bonus is shared with two other characters. He'd be better of with something like heavy armor on Extreme Speed for a safer recovery or a faster start-up time on Aura Sphere for a better OoS option against characters that out range him. Even allowing him to wall-cling to a larger area on the sides of stages (is that possible?) would be better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

meh, anyways, we have a chat apparently?

Yes, it's on the sidebar of http://balancedbrawl.net

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ike v Marth didn't change? Huge FAir nerf on Marth, NUMEROUS Ike buffs, etc?
Nice delusion pal!

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Snake discussion:
You're forgetting Snake can be combo'ed pretty easy. You play wise-offensive against him, and he'll got trouble.

@Ike:
He needs a way to deal with shields. If we can have a Ganon-like character (but not so strong), that doesn't need to ledgeguard because he has enough power to kill from onstage, and at the same time pressures opponents, we'll have a very solid character...

Spoiler

Wait, I'm talking about DonkeyKong?

 

[Lokee]

@Snake discussion:
You're forgetting Snake can be combo'ed pretty easy. You play wise-offensive against him, and he'll got trouble.

@Ike:
He needs a way to deal with shields. If we can have a Ganon-like character (but not so strong), that doesn't need to ledgeguard because he has enough power to kill from onstage, and at the same time pressures opponents, we'll have a very solid character...

Spoiler

Wait, I'm talking about DonkeyKong?

Thats kinda harsh....I can understand Ike needs help but something like that....well I dont think its necessary.

Hypothetically speakng what would Ike need to be more viable?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Ike is really fine; he has a whole lot going for him. Playing the game makes it pretty clear to me.

Also, in general, the game is pretty much done; we're doing cleanup, not redesign, at this point.

 

[ぱみゅ]

At least, difference between Top and Bottom tier now is a lot less than in vBrawl. He can do decently, although is not exactly the best character...

 

[Nakihito]

Ike v Marth didn't change? Huge FAir nerf on Marth, NUMEROUS Ike buffs, etc?
Nice delusion pal!

Ok, rather than saying the above, how about you actual say WHY you think Marth v. Ike is different now. All I see is a clam with absolutely no reasoning behind it.

Marth's fair was not nerfed as hard as you think it was. It does 2% less damage. While yes, this was indeed a nerf, the only thing it did was lessen the reward on a move that had an incredible favorable risk:reward ratio. It doesn't change the fact that there's still enough hit stun for Marth to combo it into dancing blade or itself at low percentages, it doesn't change the fact that Marth can still zone Ike to hell and back with it, it doesn't change the fact that Marth can still get off a fair, land, and then shield all before Ike can get off his fair (Marth is then able to punish with dancing blade). The only thing it changed was the percent at which the move kills (which it was rarely used for) and how much longer Marth has to spend damage racking. It'd also like to mention that Ike is just tall enough for Marth to hit him with a nair in his standing position.

Ike received a total of three buffs. I went over how all three are relatively useless against Marth. I'll copy and past it for you here too.

As for the Marth match up: nothing changed. Nothing that would really affect the match up changed. Ike gained a better QD. Whooo!!! Doesn't help when Marth can swat Ike out of the move with any aerial, jab, utilt, ftilt, or, well, anything really. The lowered damage on Marth's fair just means Marth does slightly less damage zoning Ike. Ike still has no way of getting past Marth's sword wall and still has no way of killing him reliably. Marth can get past Eruption at the edge with ledge hop air dodge (which he can actually do safely now because he doesn't suffer the DS landing lag now), DS staling (If done right, you have maybe 5 frames of vulnerability), ledge stalling, or ledge hop DS (Ike has 11 frames before the hit box comes out while DS takes abut 11 frames to get to its apex). Yeah, this one is going to stay 65:35 or worse for Ike.

Although it does seem I left out nair, its really a trivial matter (the fact that I left it out in the above, not the actual buff) because its no different in this match up than it is in other match ups and I gave my opinion on the nair buff already:

However, if you look at his SH frame data, you'll see that nothing has really changed. Ike is only airborne for 38 frames in a SH. I'm not sure if this allows him to double jump in the 1 frame he has left while airborne as I do not currently have access to a Wii. The auto-canceling does help, I'm sure, but that's only when you hit someone's shield who doesn't have a decent grab range and even then, you'd have to space it perfectly which is hard to do because Ike isn't very mobile in the air. All this means that Ike still has to commit to a SH nair or else it doesn't auto-cancel. When you take into consideration how the hitbox on the move works, you should realize that this isn't what Ike wants to do. By frame 27 or so, the hitbox is no longer in front of Ike. This leaves around 15 frames (including shield stun and shield hitlag) before he gets his IASA allowing the opponent to shield grab or something. Trying to cross someone up with the attack doesn't change much. It just allows them to reset or shield grab while you're on top of them.

Considering nair takes 15 frames for the hitbox to appear above him and another 2 or 3 frames (estimating) to move in front of him, you'll see that it's basically fair, but safer on shield and less range. Considering the average reaction time is around 16-18 frames and how easy it is to see this attack coming, you can imagine how easy it would be to perfect shield as long as you know Ike's few options.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think most people overrate Marth a little bit. She just doesn't have reliable kill moves.
Fsmash and Bair are lagless, but they are also pretty readable, and can't kill unless well-spaced (same with Dolphin Slash); and despite the powerful can Fair be, it gets very stalled due to its importance (also see: MK's tornado/Dair, Snake's granades, Sheik's Ftilt, and many others). For Dancing Blades, ther're mostly just annoying, can generate traps and juggle situations, but Overall aren't very dominating if you play the matchup wisely.

 

[Thinkaman]

if your going to add crazy illusion shenanigans and the like, whats wrong with editing hitboxes?

It's a matter of discreteness. A change can be more extreme if it's concise. A good example would be adding WiFi Waiting Room as a playable stage--that's a HUGE change that affects every character, but it has zero impact on moving between Brawl and BBrawl because it's entirely discrete. Example in conversational form.

"We nerfed the range on snake u-tilt."
"Oh. How much?"
"3."
"..."
"Well, it was a size 6 hitbox before, extended 12 units from his body, and we changed the numbers so that--"

VS

"We allowed Fox to double jump out of his side special."
"Oh. Okay."

People are going to get caught up on a hitbox different, sometimes attempting the vBrawl range in BBrawl and sticking to the BBrawl range in vBrawl. Their muscle memory will have to be relearned to switch. Meanwhile, Fox being able to double jump out of Illusion or Ike being able to do things after QD or Falco's d-throw being consistent... that's all binary.

Riddle me this:

how an "his equpiment" be used as any sort of excuse when SAMUS ARAN, who is bigger and in a full POWER SUIT is lighter than him?

Nanomachines.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Riddle me this:

how an "his equpiment" be used as any sort of excuse when SAMUS ARAN, who is bigger and in a full POWER SUIT is lighter than him?

Well, Chozo technology may is better than ours in that terms... =/

 

[Mr. Escalator]

You don't seem to understand. The matchup is changed. Period. I don't know why you would argue against this, it's a basic fact, simply because one of Marth's best and most used moves was nerfed in damage and knockback and Ike got buffs. The dynamic of the match has changed.

What you should be saying, as it fits your argument better, is that Marth vs Ike is still a bad matchup for Ike. Frankly I don't care to argue that, though its of my opinion that the new Nair + Eruption weigh a good deal into it and sideB weighs a ton in the new matchup. If you are trying to say the ratio hasn't changed, that's pretty objectionable, but I don't care to argue that either.

Just... the matchup changed. The degree of change can be contested, but even a well placed +1 damage buff makes a difference in any matchup.

 

[G.D.]

Not a valid argument considering we have someone like Mario who went for having one kill move to at least three. Every time a move gets a knock back or damage buff, you have to re-memorize kill percentages. Even Snake's kill moves were changed, so players already have to re-learn when they can kill, with what, and against who.

It's funny how you counter only one argument, there.

Riddle me this:

how an "his equpiment" be used as any sort of excuse when SAMUS ARAN, who is bigger and in a full POWER SUIT is lighter than him?

Actually, I think that has to do more with emulating how she jumps in most of her games, although I think it was exaggerated somewhat in Brawl. It's the same reason Ice Climbers have horrible horizontal air movement; their initial jump is basically a copy-pasta from Ice Climber.

 

[Lokee]

On a sorta random note: If anyone has a Wikipedia account could they update the information for Balanced Brawl on Smash Wiki for the sake of accuracy. Its been bothering me when I search up Balanced Brawl and its like the 3rd link yet hasnt been updated in a while.............be sure to include Bbrawl Bonuses

 

[Ussi]

Marth is definally Ike's worst MU in bbrawl.

I cant really gauge it though cause Marth requires immese skill to space perfectly which Ike can take advantage off the ones who don't. That's honestly why I never hear complaints about Ike vs Marth since well really Marths haven't played Really good Ike to show that...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Somehow, it's easier to space well with Ike rather than Marth...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Easier =/= better

Marth isn't going to be dominating as much in the lower level players, but he's still nearly just as good at higher levels with the exception of 2 damage of his f-air. (Which is only one of his zoning tools)

And as for reliable kill moves, he has a great OoS that kills at a good percent and a tipper f-smash that is redonkulous. He also has tipper up-smash and tipper d-smash. Also don't forget about F-air wall of pain to gimp. (theoretically it should work better b/c of the lowered KB)

 

[Ussi]

Somehow, it's easier to space well with Ike rather than Marth...

Marth takes a while to get used too because he moves too fast for a newbie. Ike moves so slow its easy to get used to it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Snake's up tilt is perfectly logical; there's a single frame in which his leg is extended straight forward. It's just so fast that you can't see it.

His forward tilt is fairly silly, but we're not changing it. Snake is a very extreme character so he needs extreme attributes. I have confidence this Snake will work out.

The snake boards actually agree that it's his massive junk slapping you in the face.

Lemme pose this question, seeing as I have argued this in the past..

How would it affect snake's MU's overall if his weight were lessened?

5-15 points worse. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Ask Pierce7D, he wrote in his thread that one of the only reasons snake was so good is, well, that you live for ****ing ever with him.

A loss of weight make Snake a whole ****ing lot worse.

fix'd

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A smart Ike is a real pain to approach with a lot of characters though, and I don't usually get that feeling with Marth. It's mostly because Ike has the wonderjab whereas if Marth wants that level of "get off me" he has to commit to a Dolphin Slash... which of course if a whole lot more punishable than Ike's jab if I predict it and avoid it. I guess he can also try for Dancing Blade, but again it's a lot of commitment. In that sense, Ike has a real, material zoning advantage because he has a low commitment low range quick option to protect himself for when people do get close and to dissuade certain types of approach (beyond grab, which both have of course).

Really though, the dynamics of the characters are just different. They may both be swordsman, but they utilize that range in very different ways; they aren't more similar to each other than either is similar to Mr. Game & Watch, and talking about them side by side is like talking about Fox and Sonic side by side because both are speed characters.

 

[shanus]

It's a matter of discreteness. A change can be more extreme if it's concise. A good example would be adding WiFi Waiting Room as a playable stage--that's a HUGE change that affects every character, but it has zero impact on moving between Brawl and BBrawl because it's entirely discrete. Example in conversational form.

"We nerfed the range on snake u-tilt."
"Oh. How much?"
"3."
"..."
"Well, it was a size 6 hitbox before, extended 12 units from his body, and we changed the numbers so that--"

VS

"We allowed Fox to double jump out of his side special."
"Oh. Okay."

People are going to get caught up on a hitbox different, sometimes attempting the vBrawl range in BBrawl and sticking to the BBrawl range in vBrawl. Their muscle memory will have to be relearned to switch. Meanwhile, Fox being able to double jump out of Illusion or Ike being able to do things after QD or Falco's d-throw being consistent... that's all binary.



Nanomachines.

I disagree entirely. It's not a simple binary change. A fox player required to relearn jumping out of sideB would be just as large of a foreign change as asking a snake player to adapt to a slight range nerf he would probably barely notice.

Herein however lies the discrepancy, you are forcing generally weaker chars (in brawl tier lists) to largely relearn their characters wherein not justifying a nerf where you might have be 1-2 units (negligible at best) closer.

Rank which one effects the playstyle more.

Fox being able to side B, jump, firefox for recovery (or use phantasm offensively)
Ike being able to sideB multiply times in the air.
Snakes uptilt shrunk a few units.

I think the answer in itself is obvious. I dont personally have any attachments to any of these changes as I don't play, but I feel you are only limiting yourself if you allow yourself to make such drastic what you call as "gimmicks" while disregarding one of the key balancing features you have available to you (lets not even venture into modifying priority i guess)

Food for thought

 

[Nakihito]

You don't seem to understand. The matchup is changed. Period. I don't know why you would argue against this, it's a basic fact, simply because one of Marth's best and most used moves was nerfed in damage and knockback and Ike got buffs. The dynamic of the match has changed.

What you should be saying, as it fits your argument better, is that Marth vs Ike is still a bad matchup for Ike. Frankly I don't care to argue that, though its of my opinion that the new Nair + Eruption weigh a good deal into it and sideB weighs a ton in the new matchup. If you are trying to say the ratio hasn't changed, that's pretty objectionable, but I don't care to argue that either.

Just... the matchup changed. The degree of change can be contested, but even a well placed +1 damage buff makes a difference in any matchup.

I'm sorry, there seems to have been a misunderstanding between the two of us. It seems you mean that the match up has change as in its not exactly the same as before while I mean the match up hasn't changed from its current ratio, or that the degree of the match up hasn't changed I suppose.

It's funny how you counter only one argument, there.

I wasn't arguing in favor of lowering Snake's weight. I was trying to say that you shouldn't use that argument because its easily beaten.

Marth is definally Ike's worst MU in bbrawl.

I cant really gauge it though cause Marth requires immese skill to space perfectly which Ike can take advantage off the ones who don't. That's honestly why I never hear complaints about Ike vs Marth since well really Marths haven't played Really good Ike to show that...

First, Ike's worst match ups are characters that do what he does better (read: Snake and DK), characters with projectiles/good camping games as described here (read: Pit, Falco, Olimar, Shiek), and fast/mobile characters that can zone him (read: Marth, Metaknight) or a combination of any of those three (read: Lucario).

Second, there are plenty of videos of Ryko and Kirk (Best two Ikes that I've heard of) playing against Marth and they even admit that against most Marths that know the match up/are of tourney skill level its an incredibly one-sided fight (65:35-70:30 Marth). This video here is Ryko v. Pierced from about a year ago. Here is another one (Careful not to take Pierced too seriously in this match). The first showcases how Ike has crappy options to get out of a juggle and how Marth can literally swat Ike out of QD. The second showcases Marth's fair string that ends up in a stock loss for Ike. If you look closely, you can see that Ike gets most of his hits in when Marth over-commits and that otherwise, Ryko the player, not Ike the character, has to mind game Pierced into getting hit. Again, Ike has not traps, set ups, or good follow-ups from his character design. He's the type of character that you have to simply out play your opponent with.

Easier =/= better

Marth isn't going to be dominating as much in the lower level players, but he's still nearly just as good at higher levels with the exception of 2 damage of his f-air. (Which is only one of his zoning tools)

And as for reliable kill moves, he has a great OoS that kills at a good percent and a tipper f-smash that is redonkulous. He also has tipper up-smash and tipper d-smash. Also don't forget about F-air wall of pain to gimp. (theoretically it should work better b/c of the lowered KB)

I was actually thinking that Marth's fair nerf might actually make his damage racking/edge guarding capabilities better. Instead of getting only one 10% fair hit, he may be able to get in two 9% fairs. Certain fast fallers already get ***** by low percent fair chains offstage if they DI incorrectly. Now, its probably possible to do it on more than just characters like Falcon, Fox, and Ganondorf and at higher percentages.

The snake boards actually agree that it's his massive junk slapping you in the face.

Made me lulz.

A smart Ike is a real pain to approach with a lot of characters though, and I don't usually get that feeling with Marth. It's mostly because Ike has the wonderjab whereas if Marth wants that level of "get off me" he has to commit to a Dolphin Slash... which of course if a whole lot more punishable than Ike's jab if I predict it and avoid it. I guess he can also try for Dancing Blade, but again it's a lot of commitment. In that sense, Ike has a real, material zoning advantage because he has a low commitment low range quick option to protect himself for when people do get close and to dissuade certain types of approach (beyond grab, which both have of course).

Really though, the dynamics of the characters are just different. They may both be swordsman, but they utilize that range in very different ways; they aren't more similar to each other than either is similar to Mr. Game & Watch, and talking about them side by side is like talking about Fox and Sonic side by side because both are speed characters.

Saying, "A smart <insert arbitrary character here> is difficult to approach" means nothing. Of course a smart Ike is relatively difficult to approach (although I don't think Ike has any viable keep away options, what with having 0 poking options). So is a smart Yoshi, or Fox, or Falco, or Snake. For Ike, you have to work a lot harder, be a lot better, and play a lot smarter than you opponent as opposed to someone playing Marth. The amount of time and work you put into playing someone like Ike is not as rewarding as if you played someone like Snake or just about anyone else in the game.

Ike's jab is not that great and we've been over why. Its also a very unreliable tool for Ike against Marth especially because Marth CAN commit to an attack that comes out in 5 frames with invincibility for the first 5 frames. Ike cannot touch Marth's shield at all without being punished. The other thing is that neither Ike not Marth want to be within Ike's jab range very much. Ike's jab is vulnerable to shield grabs on the first two hits and vulnerable to DS OoS on all three. Even if Ike does land a jab, Marth can DS out of the third hit. Marth wants to be at tipper fair range. Ike wants to be at the tip of his fair or ftilt's range even though neither range is very effective offensively for him because one whiff or one block and Marth will be in his preferred range. As such, Marth, with his greater mobility among other things, will have a much greater control over the match's pace and spacing than Ike and will probably be at his preferable range more often than Ike who gets a lot less reward for being at said range.

I agree that the character dynamics are different, but that is partially because one character is a well designed fighter (Marth), while the other's game has too many holes in it (Ike).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I could say so many things in response, but perhaps some people here would be served by a bit of video review of high level play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEQ16Wxuea8

The last game in the set is easy enough to find. This is standard Brawl, very recent, and clearly high level play involving Ike (unless UTD Zac isn't good enough of a player for you to count as high level!). You may want to count how many jabs were landed in this match (a very large number), you may want to count how often SDI rendered them ineffective (not often at all), and you may want to remember that Mr. Game & Watch has a very strong long range game that doesn't require him to get that close to hit his opponent (giving him way above average options to deal with Ike's zoning). Now just imagine what it's like for someone like Kirby or Jigglypuff that has to actually get a lot closer to hit Ike...

 

[PKNintendo]

I could say so many things in response, but perhaps some people here would be served by a bit of video review of high level play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEQ16Wxuea8

The last game in the set is easy enough to find. This is standard Brawl, very recent, and clearly high level play involving Ike (unless UTD Zac isn't good enough of a player for you to count as high level!). You may want to count how many jabs were landed in this match (a very large number), you may want to count how often SDI rendered them ineffective (not often at all), and you may want to remember that Mr. Game & Watch has a very strong long range game that doesn't require him to get that close to hit his opponent (giving him way above average options to deal with Ike's zoning). Now just imagine what it's like for someone like Kirby or Jigglypuff that has to actually get a lot closer to hit Ike...

Hmm. Ike actually isn't to bad from what I've seen from that vid... Coupled with BBrawl's changes he might actually be solid. (I might actually consider using him)

Seriously though, I NOW think that Bbrawl is fine (and as they said earlier) it's now all about cleanup duty.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm going to go as far as saying we have a Top-5-in-World material Ike here in Ottawa...he won biweeklies. Ike definitely is not as bad as Ganondorf. You can't punish tipped autocancelled fAirs. fSmash is a really good edgeguard (charge it, then release when they get back onstage). uSmash is just way too good of a trap. Jab cancels are so beastly.

Ike is fine.

 

[Ussi]

I'm going to go as far as saying we have a Top-5-in-World material Ike here in Ottawa...he won biweeklies. Ike definitely is not as bad as Ganondorf. You can't punish tipped autocancelled fAirs. fSmash is a really good edgeguard (charge it, then release when they get back onstage). uSmash is just way too good of a trap. Jab cancels are so beastly.

Ike is fine.

Fair does not auto cancel unless FULL hopped and tipping fairs requires fast falling them for short characters (the shorter the more precise you have to be)

Usmash is a very good trap against rolls, air dodges and platforms.. Other than that.. An example how bad it is on shield, hitting DK with the front part of usmash he has enough time to drop shield and FSMASH Ike... It's pathetic

Fsmash is a horrible move and you should feel bad for getting hit by the move offline. Seriously though: Everyone can punish (except the slow runners) it even if they shielded it. What you mentioned is a horrible way of edge guarding with Ike. They just wait it out, however spacing Ike so your a pixel away from their get up attack is an optimal use for those who bother to use ledge attacks... (lol not really used)

fsmash is good at punishing low level of play habits :/ at higher levels... Doesn't get used at all.

All Ike kills with at higher levels of play is : bair, utilt, uair, fair (fresh) and those slight usmash traps. Any other move is too hard to land or the risk brings more bad than good (ftilt, fsmash, dair)

 

[Red Leader]

Sorry to ask this again, but haven't got enough time to actually search through all the boards before I get off my lunch break. Can the most recent test build (http://balancedbrawl.net/publictest/bbrawl2rc2.zip) be played straight off an un-modded or hacked Wii?

I popped it in to give it a try the other night with my buddy, but when I went to the Stage screen to trigger the reset and load it just hanged on the Stage screen waiting for what appeared to be a custom stage to load.

Didn't go anywhere, had to perform a hard power down to get out of the screen.

Has the boot sequence for the mod been adjusted at all?

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry to ask this again, but haven't got enough time to actually search through all the boards before I get off my lunch break. Can the most recent test build (http://balancedbrawl.net/publictest/bbrawl2rc2.zip) be played straight off an un-modded or hacked Wii?

I popped it in to give it a try the other night with my buddy, but when I went to the Stage screen to trigger the reset and load it just hanged on the Stage screen waiting for what appeared to be a custom stage to load.

Didn't go anywhere, had to perform a hard power down to get out of the screen.

Has the boot sequence for the mod been adjusted at all?

When you first start Brawl, go to the Stage Editor--the hacked stage file will automatically restart Brawl with the BBrawl changes in effect.

Currently uploading RC3.

 

[Red Leader]

Hmm . . . that's the screen I was opening. Odd that it didn't work.

Oh well, try it again later once you've uploaded the new one. Thanks again.

I'd love to try and test some of the changes you guys make, but I think I'd probably kill myself if I started doing testing during my spare time when I already work as a full time game tester.

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright, this is almost definitely the last release candidate.

DOWNLOAD RC3 HERE!

A few very minor tweaks were made, such as ironing out Sonic's u-smash sometimes not linking. Several minor bug fixes.

There are two noteworthy changes:
-Jigglypuff can now Pivot Grab out of Rollout
-Files are included to load ZSS's transformation (from Samus) faster, and she can interrupt the transform animation somewhat earlier... instead of standing around for 120 frames.

 

[Eyada]

I've had my Wii lock-up on the Stage Editor screen a few times as well since I started using the RC builds. Everything is correct as far as SD card set-up is concerned, and the hacked custom stage is visible on the Stage Editor screen.

However, the Wii occasionally freezes right as the Stack Smash is about to happen. I just force reboot and keep doing it until it works, so it's not insurmountable, but it is a new issue that never happened with the original BBrawl release.

Probably not significant, but I wanted to corroborate that there are occasional lock-ups with the newer builds.

Edit: Re-read the earlier post I was responding to. He was booting incorrectly; I am not. I follow the correct procedure, but it locks on occasion anyway. The original release would occasionally fail to launch and would simply idle on the Stage Editor screen, but it was very rare --perhaps only 10% of launches failed. The rate of failure is notably higher with the RC builds, probably around 20-30% and it is more severe. (A total system freeze rather than just idling on the Stage Editor screen.)

Just letting you know for potential debugging purposes.

Also, downloading the new release. Some friends are coming over shortly to help test it out.