Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Stealth Raptor]

Only really fast cooldown jabs should be able to. (Or projectile cases, obviously.)

i know in at least olimars usmash case, he has time to pull out a regular shield, not just psheild, that should be more then enough time to spot dodge. i dont know the specific frames, but i think a fair number of attacks are safe on his counter

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Some matches from wifi!

1-Fuujin (Z/S) vs MrEsc (CF)
2-AA (Sonic) vs MrEsc (Boozer)
3-AA (Ganon) vs MrEsc (Peach)

Enjoy?

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, I'm just not sure what this would really accomplish. I don't see how it affects matchups or any issues bowser has--what does it cover that dair doesn't? It seems like a somewhat large change for the sake of a somewhat large change.

it essentially give shim another option to stop juggling (his main weakness IMO) without being pwn'ed afterwards.

the whole reason why Dair is good is because on impact with the ground it creates a small shockwave to give bowser space. His Down B doesnt do as much damage as the new Dair, yet is much, much more risky due to the end lag..a small even just wind hitbox would make the move catch up to Dair a bit in terms of mixing up his ...getting down? options

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, unlike dair though down-b is a strong KO move and a mobility tool. They are very, very different.

 

[JOE!]

true, but all Im asking is to give bowser a bit of leeway when he misses the move, as the lag when hitting the floor can like, let a falcon punch in...

 

[Linkshot]

Then ledgecancel it.

 

[JOE!]

not allwas near a edge when it can be used.

And it's not like itd be anything game changing, just to prevent the sillyness that is when you land POINT BLANK next to someone, but because they are not touching bowser, nothing happens to them

 

[Thinkaman]

You know he already has a shockwave (11%), right? I'm understanding your complaint is that you think it's too small.

 

[JOE!]

it...doesnt.

Really, you can land right next to somebody and they will not be phased at all (or right above them if on a platform)

 

[Fuujin]

it...doesnt.

Really, you can land right next to somebody and they will not be phased at all (or right above them if on a platform)

This is true, even Zelda has time to run in from a little while away and grab him.

 

[Thinkaman]

I promise you it does, it's right there in PSA and you can see it in the game. It's a 11% hitbox that can only hit grounded opponents with a decent base knockback and more growth than any other shockwave in the game. It's not large though, and the shieldstun on down b-'s aerial hit prevents anyone from unshielding between them.

 

[JOE!]

Then why have I never hit it? Seriosuly, ive landed the move right next to people (not shielding) and they would stand there un phased...

 

[deepseadiva]

Obviously you're dyslexic.

 

[Thinkaman]

It *is* a small hitbox. Joe, wanna hop in the chat?

 

[Ussi]

Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Bowser) 1
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Bowser) 2

Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Yoshi) 1
Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Yoshi) 2
Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Yoshi) 3

Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Yoshi) 1
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Yoshi) 2
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Yoshi) 3
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Yoshi) 4

Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Bowser) 1
Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Bowser) 2
Ussi (Ike) vs JOE (Bowser) 3

Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Wolf) 1
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Wolf) 2
Ussi (Pikachu) vs JOE (Wolf) 3

Enjoy

 

[JOE!]

It *is* a small hitbox. Joe, wanna hop in the chat?

sorry, was asleep when this was posted XD

but sure, later on Ill hop on and talk about it.

Obviously you're dyslexic.

Hey, I may be dleixysc, but wehn you see taht you can raed tihs, yluol siht bkrics!

@Ussi:

what happened to the Ike vs Wolf matches?

 

[Ussi]

You never let me switch back to Ike since you were so hard pressed to fight my pikachu they never happened basically

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just have to say that, while Final Fantasy X remains one of the best games I've ever played, the soundtrack was not its strong point. Why is the ridiculous Jecht theme music background music on your Final Destination?

 

[Ussi]

I hacked music into it o-o;;

I personally liked the music... that and with Seymor XD


>_>;; I have a lot of final fantasy battle themes

 

[Linkshot]

Would you rather have "Dugongs" playing on Pirate Ship, AA? Because I have that.

 

[G_Man]

Some opinions show, that Snake is already one of the best... But why? I know the major changes in BBrawl should'nt effect hitboxes and so on, but please change the hitboxes of Snake. It's a programming-failure. And why is Snake still heavier than Ganon? It's nonsense. I don't know, if other hitbox-changes are necessary, but Snake's Uptilt and ftilt are some of the buggy ones.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Snake's up tilt is perfectly logical; there's a single frame in which his leg is extended straight forward. It's just so fast that you can't see it.

His forward tilt is fairly silly, but we're not changing it. Snake is a very extreme character so he needs extreme attributes. I have confidence this Snake will work out.

 

[JOE!]

You never let me switch back to Ike since you were so hard pressed to fight my pikachu they never happened basically

but they did happen

anyways, i wanted to keep fighting pika to figure out that dang Dthrow crap youkept pulling

 

[Linkshot]

Snake has wonky hitboxes and weight because he was originally bigger earlier in development. They forgot to reset other values to make up for it.

 

[G_Man]

Snake's up tilt is perfectly logical; there's a single frame in which his leg is extended straight forward. It's just so fast that you can't see it.

His forward tilt is fairly silly, but we're not changing it. Snake is a very extreme character so he needs extreme attributes. I have confidence this Snake will work out.

I lol'd. Ok...maybe the uptilt works in this way... but there's no legitimation for the ftilt. Yeah we have Magic and other unreal stuff, but each char should be realistic in it's one way. Snake is a human and his legs have to touch the opponent... he has no aura or sonic-waves... he simply kicks.

Edit: @ Linkshot...And i know, that Nintendo forgot to reset Snake's stats. But why can't we do it now? Heavy failures should be avoided or fixed. (dacus is also such a thing)

 

[Linkshot]

DACUS is not a heavy failure. It is an AT. Also, changing the hitboxes will redesign Snake far too much. At best, we just heavily nerf the disjoint so it feels a little more natural.

 

[G_Man]

Nerfing the disjoint could help a little bit. But what is with Snake's weight? He should be in the weight-class together with Ike. Snake is also so good, because he survives so long, cause of his recovery and weight. Even if the gameplay is no argument for changing his weight, let us change his weight, cause he isn't really heavier than Ganon or heavy like DK or DDD... According to his appearance, his weight doesn't make sense...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Snake has a weight of 113 which is the 3rd heaviest in the game. By comparison, Bowser is at 120, DK at 116, DDD at 112, Charizard at 110, Ganondorf at 109, and Samus at 108. I don' think this is totally unreasonable; Snake is just about as big as Ganondorf and has just as much heavy equipment. Saying it's a little more so he has 4 more weight (which is really not much) is reasonable. As per DDD and Charizard, remember both are built to fly so they're going to be a bit lighter than their size would indicate.

If you're curious, the low ends of weight is Jigglypuff at 68 with Squirtle and Mr. Game & Watch in second place with 75.

 

[JOE!]

I brought that issue up a while back but it never went anywhere, but yes...his weight makes NO sense for someone with his recovery/gameplay/etc

AA, that 4 weight makes a WORLD of difference when you couple it with Snakes other poperties, such as his good recovery

 

[G_Man]

Snake has a weight of 113 which is the 3rd heaviest in the game. By comparison, Bowser is at 120, DK at 116, DDD at 112, Charizard at 110, Ganondorf at 109, and Samus at 108. I don' think this is totally unreasonable; Snake is just about as big as Ganondorf and has just as much heavy equipment. Saying it's a little more so he has 4 more weight (which is really not much) is reasonable. As per DDD and Charizard, remember both are built to fly so they're going to be a bit lighter than their size would indicate.

If you're curious, the low ends of weight is Jigglypuff at 68 with Squirtle and Mr. Game & Watch in second place with 75.

Snake is not as big as Ganondorf. Ganondorf is taller and has more muscles. Snakes Equipment can be an argument... but if we also count Equipment, than count Ganon's massive armor and his Sword (even if he doesn't use it).
Two options... Ganon becomes heavier... or Snake goes to a fitness studio and loses some weight ;-) I prefer the second option.

 

[JOE!]

Lemme pose this question, seeing as I have argued this in the past..

How would it affect snake's MU's overall if his weight were lessened?

 

[G.D.]

Just to have another opinion on the recent discussion...

I agree that Snake's disjointed hitboxes should be nerfed a minute degree, at least the first part of his Ftilt. If not in range, then in damage.

I disagree that Snake's weight should change. It may seem a tiny bit awkward when you look at it statistically, but it is within the realm of reason and I believe changing such a fundamental attribute would do more harm than good in BB's codeset.

I disagree that Bowser's downB should have a bigger shockwave. It's risky for a reason: it's a great kill move and does a lot of damage when it hits. That's not to mention it can cancel on the ledge, and is the main reason aerial characters would be afraid to follow Bowser upwards after he's been knocked up high. It's fundamentally the same reason Link's dair doesn't have a shockwave. All the anvil moves that do have a considerably-sized shockwave, like Yoshi's downB or Toon Link's dair, don't have that powerful punch to them. (Dedede Jump is the exception, but that move is so slow and so predictable; its wave seems to exist purely so Dedede isn't quite as ridiculously easy to punish if he lands on-stage with it.)

 

[G_Man]

A loss of weight make Snake a little bit worse. I think it would be a good consequence, cause we want to balance Brawl...and Snake is still very/too powerful. The whole gameplay at all wouldn' be affected by this change.

 

[G.D.]

A lot of players would have to re-memorize when their kill moves would safely KO Snake, and Snake players would have to adjust accordingly as well. Even if there was a change, it would either be so minor that I doubt it would affect much (but still be obnoxious), or it would be so major that it would cause problems. Weight affects things like comboability too, iirc.

 

[G_Man]

A lot of players would have to re-memorize when their kill moves would safely KO Snake, and Snake players would have to adjust accordingly. Even if there was a change, it would either be so minor that I doubt it would affect much (but still be obnoxious), or it would be so major that it would cause problems. Weight affects things like comboability too, iirc.

Cause of knockback and damage changes the players already had to re-memorize when their kill moves would safely KO a char.

 

[G.D.]

Cause of knockback and damage changes the players already had to re-memorize when their kill moves would safely KO a char.

That's a comparably small change.

Also: comboability. You kinda forgot to place an argument against that. Snake is relatively easy to combo, and that's largely because of his size and weight.

I really don't see this as something good. Firstly, Snake isn't really overpowered as he is, he just happens to be the most powerful. Secondly, there are a multitude of better options to make him less powerful than simply making him lighter.

I mean, there's perhaps an even larger consensus that Jigglypuff is at or near the bottom. There's also a much bigger gap between her and those above her, than Snake and those below him. She's also so much lighter than Kirby, even though both are virtually the same in consistency. (If anything, Jiggs would logically be heavier, as I believe she isn't known to naturally float like Kirby, except in Smash Bros.) Even so, could you even imagine making her heavier?

 

[Linkshot]

Bowser's shockwave should stay the same size but ignore shields.

Fair compromise?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

that would make it impossible to block a bowser bomb, as if you are right underneath him the shockwave would hit. idk if that is what we would want to acheive

 

[Linkshot]

Stealth. Just jump and you won't get hit by the shockwave.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

im thinking of the fact that if you are holding shield and the bowser bomb comes down on top of you, it will block the bomb itself then get hit by the shockwave cause its unblockable, making it pretty safe. it is still just as vulnerable from the side though