Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ぱみゅ]

In pokemon games Rest leaves your pokemon sleep for two turns, but recovers it from anything it could have.

Even there is unworthy unless the pkmn has high defense stats... and Jigg's survability is not extacly the best...

 

[JOE!]

Speaking of Pika's dthrow: on fast fallers he has a gaurenteed kill setup...

will the FF'ers be getting anything to prevent this? (wolf has his invincible reflector, but it is only ale to come out after the killing Smash hits)

 

[G.D.]

SEND ME TIER LISTS AND I'LL LOVE YOU FOREVER.

First impression tier lists? Pretty please?

You know what would be awesome? TIER LISTS!

You speak as though anyone is competent and familiar enough with this build, and has played it against enough opponents (how many of us are there? five? ._.), to do so. Nonetheless, it's past 4am, and I'm too awake yet too tired to actually do anything. I'm also in that zombie sort of mindset that drives me to believe this is both a good idea and that I'll actually be able to do it with even a remote degree of accuracy.

Note that I've only played the most recent public release with about, say, four people, and have barely played it at all offline. This will likely have bearing on my opinions. I'm trying to take into consideration as many comments of this thread as I can.

Since BBrawl tries to focus on Zelda/Shiek and PT each as one character, I'll be listing them as such.


Upper
Snake
Pikachu
Mr. Gay Man Watch
Diddy Kong


Upper-Mid
Lucario
King Dedede
Marth
Meta Knight
Olimar
Wario
R.O.B.
Fox
Captain Falcon

Mid
Falco?
Toon Link
Link
Donkey Kong
Sonic
Kirby
Samus
Peach?
Pit
Luigi?
Bowser
Yoshi
Ganon
ZSS?
Zelda/Shiek?
Wolf?
Lucas
Ness
Mario?

Lower-Mid
Pokémon Trainer
Ike
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff


Some half-conscious reasoning and analysis for you
At first, I was going to take vBrawl's current tier list and work from there, but... somehow I thought that would create bias, so I started from scratch. When I looked to the current vBrawl tier list upon finishing, I was surprised initially how much the two were similar overall, and then surprised again at how different certain characters' placings were. Maybe this won't be as inaccurate as I initially assumed.


Snake - His broken utlit knockback and overpowered jab knockback were both nerfed somewhat, and his mine was empowered to make it a little more worthwhile; that's... just about it. Though I would no longer call him close to being broken, a lot of what made him higher-tier in vBrawl is still present here. I.e., range, grenades, and a-bit-less-but-still-pretty-potent knockback.

Pikachu - After taking away his chainthrow on a few key characters, he now has... guaranteed Dthrow into either Nair or Usmash on seemingly everyone except Jigglypuff. Deceptively powerful combo is deceptively powerful. That's not to mention his now-inescapable Dsmash, which has always been fast with good range and a lot of priority, and a few other rather subtle tweaks.

Mr. Gay Man Watch - (I use it as a term of endearment. If you think it's an insult, stop being so homophobic.) It's not so much that he's gotten any powerful, but he remains rather firmly at his level, while most around him have gotten a bit weaker with some of the changes. The more recent armor additions to certain moves makes him less broken against certain characters, but he still excels against those characters relatively, so it hasn't affected his placement much... (He is hurt quite a bit with lag, due to his emphasis on spacing, so placement may not be ideal; could just as easily be in Upper-Mid.)

Diddy Kong - 'Nanner locks are gone, which brings him down from his broken status against certain characters. He's still pretty high up there in BB, regardless, as even a single peel is a very potent weapon. The fact it's actually better to always pull out just one now actually hurts certain matchups a bit; particularly those like Ganon who are great at using 'nanners against him.

---

Lucaro - He does a bit more damage in general, but some of the changes in other characters actually seem to hurt his "just out-range them" playstyle. So he kinda evens out. What made him strong in vBrawl is mostly still present; strong, but not overly so. If it wasn't for how he seems to excel in slight lag (which is virtually all I play in), he might be a bit lower.

King Dedede is still a very strong contender without his jab locks and chainthrows. The 18% or more inescapables still present from his Dthrow really doesn't help that matter much, but at least he isn't broken against anyone anymore. ...Friggin' bair, dtilit, ftilt, fsmash, utilt, and sideB.

Marth's slightly weakened Fair brings him down a notch or two, which I think is good for him. Lag is his greatest enemy however, so like Lucario, my assessment of him my be inaccurate. ( I've tried to overcome how different he may place within lag, hopefully not overshooting it in doing so.)

Meta Knight - Without his abusive Mach Tornado (against the larger characters in particular) and his way-too-strong-for-how-fast-it-is-downsmash, as well as changes across the board that aim to balance him in particular (armor primarily), he's taken to a really nice, suitable place. He can still gimp pretty well, and can still KO against those who don't leave him an option to do so, which keeps him as a viable character. Just not a broken one.

Olimar - His sole, tiny buff to upB mainly just makes it a tiny bit easier to punish those who edgehog him. The general nerf to his main opposition, Meta Knight, actually makes him a bit stronger as well. His annoying throws, fairly powerful air game, and range, keep him in the upper tiers, while his gimpable recovery in particular keeps him from being overpowered (as it always has).

Wario 's two power moves were nerfed slightly in damage, and chain grabbing against him is gone. Most above him were either nerfed or remain the same, while most below him were buffed. Just taking that into account, he's pushed a bit more towards the middle crowd. No significant difference.

R.O.B. is R.O.B. There's little change to his character or most of his matchups. He's a bit easier to approach with a few key characters in the former bottom tiers (Ganon, Falcon, Ike, etc.), but that really doesn't affect his game much. (Again, this is the sort of character who excels with lag; idk if placing is accurate.)

Fox - Chainthrows were what made all Fox users terribly sad.. but now they're gone, so rejoice! He still falls victim to a lot of vicious from-zero combos, but then again... his utilt returns the favor on just about everyone who can do similar things to him. His blaster makes a lot of characters approach, but outside of that... he didn't have much, until the fox illusion jump-cancel, which allows him to approach most of those characters relatively safely. Stage lips are no longer his bane, either. Considering all these factors, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that he's up here, despite his relatively few changes.

Captain Falcon - UPPER-MID? SERIOUSLY? Well, maybe borderline upper-mid/mid. His new Kick really, REALLY helps him (mind games + approach + combo + less easily punishable), as does the armor on pawnch. I suspect the latter may simply be due to the fact everyone I've played is so used to hitting him out of it instead of dodging or grabbing, but... I suppose we'll see. There's also the general damage boost to many of his moves, and of course aerial raptor boost, which makes him significantly less gimpable. (Once more however, he's pretty good at lag unless you're going for the knee, so... maybe I am over/underrating him.)

---

Note that unlike the other tiers, I didn't put as much effort into giving Mid an accurate order. If a character has a "?", I'm particularly uncertain of their placement, probably because I haven't used them and seen them used (at an expert level) often enough. This is true particularly with Peach, Shiek, and Zelda; their newest changes haven't been toyed with enough...

Everyone in mid is in mid because... well... I guess this IS supposed to be a balanced game. Pretty much all characters who would have had immense weaknesses, broken matchups, or was just overall... bad... has been fixed and/or buffed immensely, while everyone who was average to begin with pretty much stays in the same place.

Really, because of all the buffs, this is more like the mid-upper of vBrawl, and the mid-bottom tier is more like its mid-tier. I can feel how everyone has been compressed into a tighter space, where it's harder to tell exactly who's better...

- Falco isn't quite so fearsome without his old downthrow... but you can't pull off many of his tricks online, either, soyeah.
- Link's arrows, spin knockback, and slightly buffed recovery help him out immensely. Still, he's pretty spikeable from upB and pretty edgehoggable from upB-tether; those are probably the only things keeping him from upper-mid.
- Sonic's. Spring. Spikes. This is the single greatest thing Balanced Brawl has ever done. It's such a simple change, yet fits in perfectly with his gameplay (see: bthrow and dthrow) and helps him kill immensely, which as everyone knows, was far and away his greatest flaw. He fits in really well with the mids now, just between that move and his dtilt.
- Ganon's seemingly infinite changes turn him into a real powerhouse. He can actually approach now and is even better at gimping and comboing, while is simultaneously a bit harder (or perhaps "riskier"?) to gimp. His faults are still there in good enough amounts to keep him balanced. I think overall he's in a good spot, and he should remain as that character. (You know, the one who's a mother****ing evil overlord who only the chosen few can really use properly.)
- Samus's knockback is in respectable quantities now, which was really her only problem to begin with, and her bombs are even better at racking up damage. That's not to mention her vastly-improved jabs. Her general slowness keeps her from upper-mid.
- Ness's dthrow really helps help him build up damage, especially considering it can often combo into aerials. (If there's any single reason he's more powerful, it's PK Fire -> DownThrow -> Fair -> Nair.) It really helps out his game overall, which still feels largely more about knockback with a couple good damaging moves mixed in.
- Mario has decent killing moves outside of Fsmash, and that's pretty much all he needed. Even so, I could still see him in lower-mid... maybe... just considering how much everyone has been buffed.
- Most of the other characters have either remained largely the same (Pit, Kirby), received generally balancing buffs (Lucas, TL), or have just fixed some bad matchups (Weegee). Those changes either speak for themselves or were so minor that mentioning them and how they've affected the tiers seems rather pointless.

---

Pokémon Trainer - Really, I'm pretty sure half the reason he's here is because I haven't played anyone who's truly skilled with all three pogeymanz. They're usually frantically trying to stick to one or two. Even so, the fact the change-outs are double speed help even that--it isn't as easy to punish someone who really doesn't want to play as Ivysaur... (nor is it as easy to punish or gimp myself, who loves Ivysaur).

Ike - I don't think he really deserves this spot, but I've heard so many complaints... I was hard-pressed to disagree with them all. Now everyone has jab locks. His aerial quick draw helps him not get gimped, but he still has a pretty bad recovery. He's also a bit better at approaching. Really, he hasn't gotten worse at all--it's just that almost everyone around his level has received such immense buffs. And again, personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with placing him outside of Mid, but...

Jigglypuff - She's a bit better at killing and a bit better at gimping... but... really, she kinda seems lackluster. Mystery Gift is nice, but is rarely useful in the matches you really need it (Pit and Samus will just knock you out of it before she finishes, unless they just died, and even if they don't, that 50% smoke ball isn't going to help... it really, really doesn't have enough stun to set up from, especially considering how slowly Purin tosses it.) Most of those around her former tier have received relatively massive buffs, which makes her all the lower in comparison.

Ice Climbers - They were never that good, and half the reason they weren't generally horrible was because GRAB OF DOOM (the other half being sweetspot Dsmash, Uair combo, and their high-priority projectiles). Yeah, they can still chainthrow, but the timing was virtually impossible before (let alone with lag). What is it now, one frame? Even so, chainthrowing is planned to be removed entirely, so that might as well be moot. That's not to mention a lot of the former-lower-tiers have much better options for separating and gimping Nana, as if that weakness wasn't already a massive one. To compensate, they've gotten... minuscule knockback boosts (about +5 base on both main kill moves) and a Dair with more knockback, which still can't reasonably kill and is generally a horrible idea to use as anything but a momentum-canceler. Truly though, they haven't gotten THAT much worse... it's mainly that almost everyone else has gotten THAT much better.

---

This tier list is not perfect. It may not even be accurate, but it's a decent starting point I think, and something which hopefully can be refined by anyone and everyone who cares enough to do so. With any luck, it may actually help bring about good design choices in the future, and thus won't have been a complete waste of two-and-a-half hours of my irreplaceable youth.

 

[Thinkaman]

Now THAT was a AAA feedback post! (Even if I think your PT placing is madness. )

Thanks!

 

[Linkshot]

I honestly think that Zelda/Sheik is in Top. Even the CPU Sheik was demolishing me with Rapid Jab Cancels.

I need to play against more humans, though.

 

[G.D.]

(Even if I think your PT placing is madness. )

Looking back on it now that I'm rested, I'm forced to agree; that's the only tier placement I would definitely change. Even so, I think he's still at best in the lower half of Mid.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

I honestly think that Zelda/Sheik is in Top. Even the CPU Sheik was demolishing me with Rapid Jab Cancels.

I need to play against more humans, though.

Tbh, that was the placing I was most unsure about... I haven't seen Sheik's cancel used expertly yet, and I've never been a decent Shiek user myself. Of course there's also Nayru's Love sliding and canceling, which I've only seen used effectively in what used to be her worse matchups. I mostly just stuck her where I did because I was clueless. (The same can be said to some extent about Peach, ZSS and all the "?"s, though.)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Some notes about Ice Climbers.

For one, unless I've really missed something, their down aerial is not a momentum cancel. The momentum altering properties of plunging down aerials simply don't happen if the user is being launched while using the move; I can tell you for a fact that using Mr. Game & Watch's key has absolutely zero effect on his ability to survive hits. I can only assume Ice Climbers' down aerial is the same way.

The power buffs to their smashes are fairly non-trivial. Also remember that Nana can get a free smash out of every grab.

Using down aerial in general isn't a horrible idea; it hits really well. It's just risky; my playtesting suggests that responsible offensive dair use helps ICs out.

The Ice Climbers are in their presumably final state insofar as chain throws go. Testing suggests they can still chain throw to some extent, but any sort of infinite is simply impossible within human limitations of ability. Having their entire game centered around one gimmick is why some characters had unwinnable ICs matchups in standard Brawl (Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.) and why Ice Climbers were such a joke on stages unfriendly to the gimmick (Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise). Being about more than the chain throws should make them overall much better well rounded.

Also, the change to Popo's nair is non-trivial and in their favor. Hammer Squall isn't buffed, but it's a much better move than some people realize.

 

[G.D.]

For one, unless I've really missed something, their down aerial is not a momentum cancel. The momentum altering properties of plunging down aerials simply don't happen if the user is being launched while using the move; I can tell you for a fact that using Mr. Game & Watch's key has absolutely zero effect on his ability to survive hits. I can only assume Ice Climbers' down aerial is the same way.

I think "momentum cancel" was the wrong term for me to use, there. I meant it's more of a mindgame move that stops horizontal movement they put on themselves, which is surprisingly useful when used in certain key situations. I apologize for the mixup--as you can easily guess, I'm not entirely used to the terms used here.

Using down aerial in general isn't a horrible idea; it hits really well. It's just risky; my playtesting suggests that responsible offensive dair use helps ICs out.

I suppose I exaggerated, but it still really only helps them punish against certain opponents in certain situations.

The power buffs to their smashes are fairly non-trivial. Also remember that Nana can get a free smash out of every grab.

I didn't see a noticeable difference in-game, and I'm genuinely clueless on the exact measurements placed in the second post and how they affect anything. From where I stand, they seem relatively trivial.

The Ice Climbers are in their presumably final state insofar as chain throws go. Testing suggests they can still chain throw to some extent, but any sort of infinite is simply impossible within human limitations of ability. Having their entire game centered around one gimmick is why some characters had unwinnable ICs matchups in standard Brawl (Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.) and why Ice Climbers were such a joke on stages unfriendly to the gimmick (Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise). Being about more than the chain throws should make them overall much better well rounded.

As I've stated before, I'm not in any way suggesting they get their old chainthrows back. Really, all I was doing in that last post is exhibiting where I think they are and then explaining that accordingly. I'd really prefer seeing them get buffs in other areas; the buffs they have right now really don't seem to do them justice for such a nerf, and that's all I'm saying.

Even you seem to agree that they're a "joke on stages unfriendly to the gimmick." With the new nerfs and buffs, has that really changed so much?

Also, the change to Popo's nair is non-trivial and in their favor. Hammer Squall isn't buffed, but it's a much better move than some people realize.

Yeah, I agree. That doesn't change my perception of their placement, however. Despite being in last (although they might as well be interchangeable with Jiggs) in my wonky tier list, I don't believe they're drastically underpowered. It feels like everyone has simply become better, is all. Balanced Brawl is pretty balanced--the entire roster could fit entirely into merely two tiers of vBrawl, I think--and if anything they just need a few tweaks in certain key areas for my opinion to change. Nonetheless, there's always going to be someone at the bottom.

 

[JOE!]

On that list, Yoshi...Samus....Wolf all belong in upper-mid, while Mario needs to be higher in mid

 

[Ussi]

How good is Bowser's fsmash? (youtube is buddy for me atm cause i'm uploading too much <_< name changes might happen)

 

[G.D.]

On that list, Yoshi...Samus....Wolf all belong in upper-mid, while Mario needs to be higher in mid

I can see where you're coming from about Samus and Mario, actually, now that I think about them and their fairly solid matchups. I'm not convinced about Yoshi and Wolf, but I personally haven't seen Wolf's new cancels used deftly yet and thus can't accurately gauge how well those changes affect his placement, hence the "?".

 

[JOE!]

Wolf's jump cancel allows him to essentially have a recovery mix-up, that alone solves alot of issues he may have had in some MU's. That and on hit he can cancel to Nair for a kill at around 140% +, ot just into his aerials for damage. That and the fact his abuses are gone (excet maybe Pika's newfound combos/kills out of Dthrow) whihc should bump him up.

Yoshi is very solid as of now, with his egg roll he can get away with alot of crap, predominatly against campers and MK, who oddly has trouble breaking through the egg once it gets rolling, allowing yoshi to essentially nado-***** MK with it. Along with that, just his general biffs like Dsmash/etc just make him a great contender as even in vBrawl very few characters gave him any real trouble.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I think Wolf is still top, and I'll actually find some time today to make up a list for you guys on my opinion of most character's placements. It'll no doubt be difficult seeing as you guys balanced this quite well, but I'll make the attempt.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lolwut bowsers fsmash goes through ikes counter? does it go through marths as well?

 

[JOE!]

lolwut bowsers fsmash goes through ikes counter? does it go through marths as well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmRzsUzAFd8

 

[Stealth Raptor]

that vid posted by ussi is what generated that question lol. broken, and mlongchu in your sig is amazing

 

[JOE!]

if it works for ike it wuld work for Marth...and maybe even lucario if timed right

anywho, i had an epiphany:

What are the chances of Bowser gettign a small shockwave effect as he lands from his Down B? As of now that move is just way too unsafe on impact, and is easily punished if you are not touching bowser. A simple even wind effect that pushes people away when he hits ground would make it just a bit safer, no?

 

[PKNintendo]

Good crack at your first list but you've got several glaring flaws.

Couple of comments here. I did some brief comments. Obviously some of my comments are off (Fine- has to do with the specifics of the list) but they are brief

Upper
Snake-fine
Pikachu-far far far too high. Top? No, absolutely not.
Mr. Gay Man Watch- G&W is a bit too high.
Diddy Kong-fine


Upper-Mid
Lucario-To high. Move him to mid
King Dedede-fine
Marth-fine
Meta Knight-should be top
Olimar-Fine
Wario-A bit to low. BB buffed him heavily. Grab release being removed>>Damage nerfs.
R.O.B.-Fine
Fox -A bit to high. Lower mid
Captain Falcon-Waaaaaay to high. Upper mid?

Mid
Falco? -_-, an offense to all Falco mains
Toon Link-Fine
Link- way to high. Bottom or low
Donkey Kong - Fine
Sonic - to high. lower mid
Kirby -Fine
Samus -Fine
Peach?-Fine
Pit- Fine
Luigi-Fine
Bowser-lower mid
Yoshi-lower mid
Ganon-Bottom or lower mid
ZSS?-Fine
Zelda/Shiek?-Fine
Wolf?-Fine
Lucas-Fine. Possible lower mid
Ness-Fine, possible move up.
Mario?-To low. Should move up.

Lower-Mid
Pokémon Trainer-To low. mid
Ike-Fine
Ice Climbers-Waaaaay higher. Upper mid
Jigglypuff-Mid

Ike's eruptions are annoying.
Ness is still kickass and fun to use.

Just a few notes. His aerial assaults are much more deadly on grounded opponents. Ness generally wanted his enemies in the air, but the shield stun buff makes him not mind grounded opponents.

PS: I wouldn't say PK Flash is a useless move.

 

[JOE!]

Not gonna waste my time with the rest, as Ive gone through what I feel is wrong with that list as it pertains to the characters I knew about:

@wario: when did a good Wario get screwed by grab release in vBrawl, again? Oh, right, he can play "dont get grabbed" well...

 

[G.D.]

if it works for ike it wuld work for Marth...and maybe even lucario if timed right

I've tested it numerous times against Marth and Lucario, and Fsmash was countered successfully every time. It seems to work every time on Ike, though. It makes sense, considering Ike's counter is actually slower than Marth's.

Coincidentally, Marth or Ike countering grounded Wizkick ends up with neither taking damage. On Lucario 's Double Team, it seems to depend highly on how far along the kick is when it hits, but it can end up with either taking damage, or neither taking damage--either Ganon exits his kick just before Lucario comes out of his counter and gets hit, Ganon is still kicking when Lucario's lag ends and Lucario gets hit, or they just plain miss each other.

Both armored pawnches, armored sparta kick, Yoshi's armored egg roll, and Ike's armored Eruption are fully counterable. I suppose that's not much of a surprise, though.

Wolf's jump cancel allows him to essentially have a recovery mix-up, that alone solves alot of issues he may have had in some MU's. That and on hit he can cancel to Nair for a kill at around 140% +, ot just into his aerials for damage. That and the fact his abuses are gone (excet maybe Pika's newfound combos/kills out of Dthrow) whihc should bump him up.

Yoshi is very solid as of now, with his egg roll he can get away with alot of crap, predominatly against campers and MK, who oddly has trouble breaking through the egg once it gets rolling, allowing yoshi to essentially nado-***** MK with it. Along with that, just his general biffs like Dsmash/etc just make him a great contender as even in vBrawl very few characters gave him any real trouble.

I believe you may be right... I'm still not so sure to call both Upper-Mid, but both should definitely be higher in Mid, at least. If I ever intend to make a second version of that tier list, it would probably be after BB v2.0 is released in gamma. At that point, I'd take these arguments (among other things) into consideration, and put more effort into it overall.

Good crack at your first list but you've got several glaring flaws.

Couple of comments here. I did some brief comments. Obviously some of my comments are off (Fine- has to do with the specifics of the list) but they are brief

I think you're vastly underestimating a lot of the changes... For the most part what you're doing is just making my list more like the vBrawl list; I don't see any consideration of what's new to BB (especially the most recent public release) in any of your comments... I think this is particularly true with Lucario, Fox, Link, Sonic, Ganon, Falcon, and especially Meta Knight. Also, how is putting Falco at the top of mid an "offense"?

I see where you're coming from with Pikachu, Bowser, Lucas, Yoshi, IC, and Jigglypuff, but respectively disagree with you. You really didn't give me much reasoning aside from "oh this is wrong," soyeah.

I agree to some extent with PT, G&W, and Wario.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Bowser's fsmash is two hits. What is happening here is Ike is countering the first hit, Bowser armors the counter, and then Ike gets hit by the second hit.

It's... silly.

 

[JOE!]

AA, see my suggestion about his Down B on impact?

Also, why doesnt it work with marth? wouldnt the 1st hit be countered like with Ike?

 

[G.D.]

Also, why doesnt it work with marth? wouldnt the 1st hit be countered like with Ike?

Marth's counterattack comes more quickly after his "block," and lacks (as many) vulnerability frames between them. Ike's is slower and has more vulnerability. Even in vBrawl, certain attacks could hit through or evade his counter under certain circumstances, while under the same circumstances, Marth's always seems to be a sure hit.

 

[JOE!]

true, but shouldnt bowser just take it, then have marth smacked with the second part?

 

[G.D.]

Bowser does take it--he isn't knocked back--but Marth is still invulnerable when the second part hits. This seems to be true regardless of spacing.

 

[PKNintendo]

I think you're vastly underestimating a lot of the changes... For the most part what you're doing is just making my list more like the vBrawl list; I don't see any consideration of what's new to BB (especially the most recent public release) in any of your comments... I think this is particularly true with Lucario, Fox, Link, Sonic, Ganon, Falcon, and especially Meta Knight. Also, how is putting Falco at the top of mid an "offense"?

I see where you're coming from with Pikachu, Bowser, Lucas, Yoshi, IC, and Jigglypuff to some extent, but respectively disagree with you. You really didn't give me much reasoning aside from "oh this is wrong," soyeah.

I agree to some extent with PT, G&W, and Wario.

I guess I am. I still disagree with a lot of changes. Lucario may actually be mid, but there's no way FOX (who was always hovering mid/low) jumped ABOVE Falco to high with a few non game changing buffs.

Link is also to high. His buffs were - fair (Sakurai was far to unkind) but it still doesn't make him extremely viable. Ganon is a heavily debated topic. He's gotten a lot better but still not enough to overcome is glaring flaws. No comment on Falcon. I haven't used him but it looks like he's to high.

Metaknight had his power nerfed, he's still a fantastic damage racker, gimper, and has a fantastic zoning game.

 

[G.D.]

I guess I am. I still disagree with a lot of changes. Lucario may actually be mid, but there's no way FOX (who was always hovering mid/low) jumped ABOVE Falco to high with a few non game changing buffs.

In Japan, Fox is A-tier. The main reason for this seems to be that that there's considerably less Pikachu players and more Snake players... and mind you, this is of course before he got the buffs from BB.

Link is also to high. His buffs were - fair (Sakurai was far to unkind) but it still doesn't make him extremely viable. Ganon is a heavily debated topic. He's gotten a lot better but still not enough to overcome is glaring flaws. No comment on Falcon. I haven't used him but it looks like he's to high.

I never said Link is extremely viable; he's average. He has a lot of good options at the cost of a lot of weaknesses. It's a trade-off.

Ganon is the sort of character who will never be great within BB's scope, but he's good enough overall, and viable with those who study his moveset, know how to use it, and can predict their opponents when necessary.

Falcon's main problem was bad approaches and gimpable recovery, without much to balance out really balance out that flaw. He's more powerful and damaging in general, and his kick in particular makes it easy to mindgame and set up an approach. Of course, his new sideB makes gimping so much easier. I will cede that he could have just as easily gone in the mids, if only because I may have overestimated him due to his good performance in lag.

Metaknight had his power nerfed, he's still a fantastic damage racker, gimper, and has a fantastic zoning game.

I agree. However, there's a lot of characters with powerful matchups against him now--those who he can't easily gimp and those who are hard to pressure have a much easier time with him now that he has to generally rely on his weakened KOing moves. Being a good damage racker and his "zoning game" is primarily what keeps him in the upper-mids.

 

[JOE!]

looking over me and ussi's vids...Pikachu can do the following out of Dthrow, with nigh gaurenteed hit:

Usmash, Dsmash, utilt, Nair, Uair, Fair.

from there, he can then do another aerial, such as Uair again to get even more damage in, or have the option of 3 (well 2 as Dsmash is easy to get out of) kill moves... o_O

 

[Stealth Raptor]

dont forget to count utilt as a kill move lol

 

[G_Man]

Ganon's two slowiest moves (Warlock Punch and Uptilt) should be slightly changed. If Uptilt were cancelable anytimes with any action, it would give Ganon more nice options with it (including the winddamage). Warlock Punch seems to be a "dead" topic, cause this move can't be balanced... or is there any chance? In Balanced Brawl nothing has to be broken, but every move shoud be useful...I see no use in Warlock Punch...even after all the other changes... try to make some fun offstage with an "edge-double-jump reversed Warlock Punch"

 

[JOE!]

...why buff those moves when 1 is allready an awesome edgegaurd, and the other is supposedly good in teams?

 

[G_Man]

I have doubts, that Warlock Punch is useful in teams. Also...teams are only a part of the game.
I don't refuse the potenzial of uptilt as an good edgeguard-attack, but the winddamage and shieldstun are made for a move, which is faster or can be interrupted.
In general i wanted to argue, that each move, that lack usefulness (only hitting in lucky moments) should get some changes... that includes all moves, not only ganon's.

 

[JOE!]

If Utilt become interruptable, then he can use it along with his other buffed moves, which are better than utilt, and be crazy.

dont forget to count utilt as a kill move lol

this is shennanigans

Pika lost the CG on fast fallers, but now has gaurenteed comboes and kills on im pretty sure EVERYONE but jiggz

 

[PKNintendo]

In Japan, Fox is A-tier. The main reason for this seems to be that that there's considerably less Pikachu players and more Snake players... and mind you, this is of course before he got the buffs from BB.

Japan=/=ours.
In fact their metagame is quite behind ours in fact. And what does this have to do with Fox? He's an average character (more so in BBrawl.) His buffs did little to change that and you know that.

I never said Link is extremely viable; he's average. He has a lot of good options at the cost of a lot of weaknesses. It's a trade-off.

Doesn't warrant a upper mid over several prominent fighters.

Ganon is the sort of character who will never be great within BB's scope, but he's good enough overall, and viable with those who study his moveset, know how to use it, and can predict their opponents when necessary.

Again, he doesn't warrant being higher than does you put below him. I'd still say he's bottom five material. Viable, and a monster under the right hands but he's still unimpressive.

Falcon's main problem was bad approaches and gimpable recovery, without much to balance out really balance out that flaw. He's more powerful and damaging in general, and his kick in particular makes it easy to mindgame and set up an approach. Of course, his new sideB makes gimping so much easier. I will cede that he could have just as easily gone in the mids, if only because I may have overestimated him due to his good performance in lag.

You also missed the part about his priority being awful. And wait... you consider wifi a credible source for a BBrawl? A minor source at the very least. Nothing more.

I agree. However, there's a lot of characters with powerful matchups against him now--those who he can't easily gimp and those who are hard to pressure have a much easier time with him now that he has to generally rely on his weakened KOing moves. Being a good damage racker and his "zoning game" is primarily what keeps him in the upper-mids.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ussi]

jiggly's rest will never be useful either and you don't see it getting buffed now. :/ BBrawl's goal is to make all characters viable.

Brawl- makes all moves have a use

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Here's my idea of how it should "sort-of" look.

BBrawl Readiness List:
Ready for Standard Release:
Upper
Marth
Diddy Kong
Falco
Snake
Meta Knight
Ice Climbers
Wario
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik/ Zelda
Non-Upper
Pikachu
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
R.O.B.
Fox
Luigi
Wolf
Samus
Mario
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Pit
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus

Tiny to Small Buffs:
Link
King Dedede
Pokémon Trainer
Jigglypuff
Falcon
Ness

Bigger Buffs:
Sonic
Bowser
Lucas
Ike
Ganondorf

 

[PKNintendo]

Here's my idea of how it should "sort-of" look.

BBrawl Readiness List:
Ready for Standard Release:
Upper
Marth
Diddy Kong
Falco
Snake
Meta Knight
Ice Climbers
Wario
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik/ Zelda
Non-Upper
Pikachu
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
R.O.B.
Fox
Luigi
Wolf
Samus
Mario
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Pit
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus

Good to go. Agreed

Tiny to Small Buffs:
Link
King Dedede
Pokémon Trainer
Jigglypuff
Falcon

King Dedede should be scratched off that list. He's still incredibly powerful with his CG and his new DT is great.

Bigger Buffs:
Sonic
Ness
Bowser
Lucas
Ike
Ganondorf

Ness doesn't need bigger buffs. You severely underrate to put him along with the likes of them. Ness should be in ready to go.

 

[G.D.]

Japan=/=ours.
In fact their metagame is quite behind ours in fact. And what does this have to do with Fox? He's an average character (more so in BBrawl.) His buffs did little to change that and you know that.

- Fast and powerful KO move out of a dash
- Several combos on several characters from 0% to ~40% or more.
- Blaster. Period.
- Those who he can't bait/spam with blaster he can now approach easily with aerial Fox Illusion jump cancel.
- His only weakness is simply that there's some combos on him, most of which a smart Fox can escape with DI or shine.

I find him to be a very strong contender with virtually no bad match-ups. If not the bottom of high-mid, than the upper half of mid.

Doesn't warrant a upper mid over several prominent fighters.

Yeah, I know. That's why I didn't make him upper-mid. You seem to be missing something here...

Again, he doesn't warrant being higher than does you put below him. I'd still say he's bottom five material. Viable, and a monster under the right hands but he's still unimpressive.

Tiers are based on who's best with him, not who's mediocre with him. You seem to be forgetting that if you clam he's a "monster" in the right hands, yet still claim he should be bottom tier material.

You also missed the part about his priority being awful. And wait... you consider wifi a credible source for a BBrawl? A minor source at the very least. Nothing more.

If that's how you feel, then you should have ignored my tier list in the first place. I stated quite clearly near the beginning that my experience with it and opinions on it stem from online play.

 

[Ussi]

i want to ask which characters do you think are specificly giving Ike a MU worse than 60:40? (besides Olimar)

 

[Stealth Raptor]

pikachu says hi to fox ever getting dominance