Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[JOE!]

they do, its all about landing Uair though

 

[Thinkaman]

Yoshi eggroll rocks, and essentially makes him be able to do to Mk what he used to do with the nado, none of the bat's moves do enough damage in 1 hit to stop the egg XD

Dair says hi!

Wolf: Still solid, as I said, but i think the increased KB on his aerials messed with his juggle game just a bit...

Hm? We only touched nair, which I don't think is much of a juggle move? Am I missing something?

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yeah, I'd imagine Link would be pretty gimped by lag.

 

[JOE!]

He tried Dair, but i went thought it fine, thinka....

I think its that it is coupled with the Egg's allready randomly epic priority once it gets rolling (and flashing yellow) that couls allow it to hit Mk past that?

Edit @ wolf:

his Fair was being weird angle-wise, usually it sends you upward, but it was going way too horizontal when i landed it...couldnt follow up :/

may have just been lolwifi though

 

[Ussi]

i forget MK's fresh dair damage but I think that's 7% no? It was diminished when I used it.

 

[JOE!]

i dont think it was, as all you hit me with naturally was Nair and Fair...Dair was used against the egg...

also, for lulz: who had the better record?

 

[Thinkaman]

Dair Sweetspot: 9%
Dair Sourspot: 7%
Nair Sweetspot: 12%
Dash Attack: 8%
D-Smash: 13%/11%
F-Smash: 14%
Aerial Up-B: 8%
Down-B: 14%

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dimensional Cape is probably the best anti-Yoshi option in Bbrawl if Yoshi is getting too spammy with Egg Roll actually. Use the change primarily designed to prevent IDC to quickly throw out that slash!

 

[JOE!]

the timing would need to be impecable...

 

[NovaRyumaru]

If I'm not wrong, Jigg's dthrow put opponents on her up-back (that's what I saw on some playtest I had against CPUs, so I can be wrong), if that, then it's bad agaist MK...

Also, I'm really amazed how CPU's randomness makes them addapt to the new changes, CPUZelda Nayru's dash spam is odd, and CPU FalconKick followups are... meh...

It does put them up and at her back, but so far away you really can't follow up with anything unless it's against Bowser or Ganon, and the only thign you can really follow up with is u-air or perhaps slide back a back and u-tilt but you're likely to get stomped by Ganon if you try that.

 

[G_Man]

I think every char should get a new attack or effect by using its taunts... some taunts are made for short power or speed ups... Link's fairy-taunt can heal some damage... Ganon can draw his sword (possibly too unbalanced) or make with his up-taunt some whirling wind finished with an explosion like a blast box... with Bowsers Side-Taunt he could bite the opponent really... creativity is needed :-) some Item-Effects would fit there.

In general... add more special effects like Bowsers Fmsash-Explosion and so on... It should be a mix between fun, useful moves, epicness and flavor took from the games, where the chars come from.

 

[Linkshot]

I think every char should get a new attack or effect by using its taunts... some taunts are made for short power or speed ups... Link's fairy-taunt can heal some damage... Ganon can draw his sword (possibly too unbalanced) or make with his up-taunt some whirling wind finished with an explosion like a blast box... with Bowsers Side-Taunt he could bite the opponent really... creativity is needed :-) some Item-Effects would fit there.

In general... add more special effects like Bowsers Fmsash-Explosion and so on... It should be a mix between fun, useful moves, epicness and flavor took from the games, where the chars come from.

I think you'd enjoy Brawl- more...Balanced Brawl is more about keeping the current matchup data in-tact while making it more bearable...Brawl- basically tears everything apart in the name of fun.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We thought about the taunt situation, and adding more effects like that quickly does become a matter of needing something for everyone. There just aren't enough interesting things we could do with taunts to make it worth it with a big question being raised about whether we really wants taunts to be generally useful, though I won't lie we seriously considered making Captain Falcon's "power up" taunt make his next Falcon Punch hit harder, similar to how Sagat's Angry Scar move works in a few Street Fighter games. At the point we realized we had a version of Falcon Punch that was already pretty awesome, we dropped the idea.

We do have a few of those style of flavor additions other than Bowser fsmash. In the realm of grab pummels, you will notice two of note. There's Wario's coin element pummel, and Captain Falcon's pummel has an electric effect (note the animation has him kneeing the opponent!). The next release will also have something with Jigglypuff... well, I shouldn't say anything else about that particular easter egg! In general, this sort of graphic extra fun is best used with moderation in my experience. The few we added are fun, but if you do too much, it stops being tasteful and starts to just seem silly.

 

[JOE!]

Speaking of Bowser's Fsmash, that thing has been tricking me when I toss it out...I keep thinking the hitbox got changed to match the explosion's radius XD

 

[NovaRyumaru]

I think every char should get a new attack or effect by using its taunts... some taunts are made for short power or speed ups... Link's fairy-taunt can heal some damage... Ganon can draw his sword (possibly too unbalanced) or make with his up-taunt some whirling wind finished with an explosion like a blast box... with Bowsers Side-Taunt he could bite the opponent really... creativity is needed :-) some Item-Effects would fit there.

In general... add more special effects like Bowsers Fmsash-Explosion and so on... It should be a mix between fun, useful moves, epicness and flavor took from the games, where the chars come from.

Gman.... you wouldn't be chance be a Fayz0n would you?

 

[Ussi]

Anyone up for a few rounds? I want to play around with Ike's eruption more XD

 

[Nakihito]

Ike's SH nairs are legitimately important and beneficial.

I didn't mean to give the impression that Ike's SH nair wasn't important. It is, by far, his best approach. However, if you look at his SH frame data, you'll see that nothing has really changed. Ike is only airborne for 38 frames in a SH. I'm not sure if this allows him to double jump in the 1 frame he has left while airborne as I do not currently have access to a Wii. The auto-canceling does help, I'm sure, but that's only when you hit someone's shield who doesn't have a decent grab range and even then, you'd have to space it perfectly which is hard to do because Ike isn't very mobile in the air. All this means that Ike still has to commit to a SH nair or else it doesn't auto-cancel. When you take into consideration how the hitbox on the move works, you should realize that this isn't what Ike wants to do. By frame 27 or so, the hitbox is no longer in front of Ike. This leaves around 15 frames (including shield stun and shield hitlag) before he gets his IASA allowing the opponent to shield grab or something. Trying to cross someone up with the attack doesn't change much. It just allows them to reset or shield grab while you're on top of them.

Considering nair takes 15 frames for the hitbox to appear above him and another 2 or 3 frames (estimating) to move in front of him, you'll see that it's basically fair, but safer on shield and less range. Considering the average reaction time is around 16-18 frames and how easy it is to see this attack coming, you can imagine how easy it would be to perfect shield as long as you know Ike's few options.

Ike's super armor on Eruption is not very useful considering it takes 19 frames to start charging (which is when it gets super armor, correct?). You would have to be committing to charging a smash attack to be hit by it which was already a bad thing to do before the addition of more super armor. Even if he's charging on the ledge, you can ledge drop and then upb back because most characters grab the edge on the way up (excluding Kirby, Jiggs, D3, Snake, and Ike).

My biggest problem with vBrawl and BBrawl Ike is that there are characters that can do what Ike does in addition to other things. They also do Ike's job better than him. Snake's uair, for instance, has massive range, comes out in 10 frames, lingers like a sex kick, and has nearly as much, if not more knock back than Ike's uair without all of the ending lag. DK's bair comes out in 7 frames, lingers, sets up for more bairs, can be used for effective edge guarding, kills decently when fresh, and ends fast enough for DK to auto-cancel it in a SH or do two in a full jump. Ganondorf's fair auto-cancels in a full hop now, kills very early, can be used to edge guard well, and comes out in 14 frames. How is Ike supposed to compete with these other heavy hitters when all of them can juggle, kill, combo, and frame trap better than he can.

For Lucario, I think heavy or super armor on Extreme Speed would be a better bonus. That or make it so that firing an Aura Sphere if faster. The former would help him get back on stage easier (sucks getting stage spiked while trying to get to a wall to clung to or getting edge-hogged because your opponent has on stage recovery covered) while the latter would help a lot with his poor OoS options considering he doesn't really have anything that resets OoS since his grab range is so poor (this would really help against Marth too).

 

[G_Man]

I think you'd enjoy Brawl- more...Balanced Brawl is more about keeping the current matchup data in-tact while making it more bearable...Brawl- basically tears everything apart in the name of fun.

Cause i like a funny AND balanced game i spoke about a mix between fun, useful moves and so on. I know the intention of brawl- and there is balancing too, but of course it is not the focus.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually, I'm finding that bonus of his to be rather useless... considering his skull bash from ground is virtually never a good tactic, even if you've managed to deceive your opponent into thinking you're planning to cancel it.

It's neat, but really, really not very useful... except against the characters who Pikachu already has an easy time with. (You know, the big ones and several of the fast-falling ones who he can easily dthrow>usmash.)

Do what I do, jump towards someone and charge SideB, and then hold shield and mash the A button. You will jump in buffering a shieldgrab, and most people are going to shield while you're charging this move anyway since spotdodging or dropping shield recklessly risks eating a pretty big hit.

Keep in mind, Pikachu has good grab range as well.

 

[JOE!]

SA on eruption is VERY useful on the edge Nakihito...

 

[Lokee]

My biggest problem with vBrawl and BBrawl Ike is that there are characters that can do what Ike does in addition to other things. They also do Ike's job better than him. Snake's uair, for instance, has massive range, comes out in 10 frames, lingers like a sex kick, and has nearly as much, if not more knock back than Ike's uair without all of the ending lag. DK's bair comes out in 7 frames, lingers, sets up for more bairs, can be used for effective edge guarding, kills decently when fresh, and ends fast enough for DK to auto-cancel it in a SH or do two in a full jump. Ganondorf's fair auto-cancels in a full hop now, kills very early, can be used to edge guard well, and comes out in 14 frames. How is Ike supposed to compete with these other heavy hitters when all of them can juggle, kill, combo, and frame trap better than he can.

I think you raise a good point although their are other characters like Ike in this regard like vbrawl Jiggs-MK maybe Olimar-Ivy and they are getting good attention. BTW can you guys increase the Base knockback of Ivy's Razor Leaf so it actually feels like your legitmately holding them back at least a little.

Anyway for Ike, some suggestions
Counter- I like how its unbockable now but can we still more KB since its so slow or reflect projectiles.
Lingering hitboxes- probably be going to far. but having hitboxes that last nearly as long as the move's lag doesnt seem so bad.............

I think you may have to take a Ganon approach to Ike since it seems many people have the suspicion that he is the worst character in BBrawl

Also anyone has feedback on Bowser as well.

 

[Ussi]

Pikachu has a very short grab range. I get most of my grabs with dash grabs not shield grabs.

Also only an idiot wouldn't shield grab pikachu out of his skull bash charge.

The only characters that can drop from the ledge and Up B without a frame of vulerablity is Marth, Pikachu, G&W, and Lucario and the tether characters [whether be Zair or up B] (feel free to correct me if there are other huge auto ledge grab UpBs these are the only that came to mind). Mario and Luigi has less frames open so they are hard to time, but still eruption hitbox hits them before they auto latch. Everyone else has some frames open before relatch.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is reminding me. Some things work out a bit differently than you guys know as of now. You'll see what I mean on that regard soon.

Also, the final version for this standard release is pretty much done (any remaining changes are more bugfixes and finishing already existing initiatives than design changes), and that Ike is the final Ike. He should be fine; I think some people will never be happy but most people will see things work out.

 

[JOE!]

AA, anything you might have done that would cause Yoshi to lose the "tip" of his tongue?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

No. Can you clarify what you mean?

 

[JOE!]

Essentially, when spaced right you can grab opponents with the very tip of yoshi's tongue.

as of last nite's matches, Ike either has a silly hurtbox, or yoshi's tongue lost it's tip, as even ussi can confirm the tip was touching ike, yet wasnt grabbing him

 

[Ussi]

It could be wifi being buggy or that the tongue's hitbox was gone then I touched it o.O... But some cases didn't look like that though.. Maybe we're both were tired XD and were seeing things? Maybe you should try playin against other people

edit: I'm gonna mess around with Yoshi and see if the distance is noticablely different between BBrawl and vbrawl

edit2: well I can't really tip with yoshi's grab cause Ike is moving even when standing still -_- Ike's body moves back and forth so at times I couldn't reach then I could lol

also my bbrawl isn't loading my SD card anymore... I tried deleting the files and putting fresh files in it but didn't work All I can say is I accidently selected hanenbow when I was going through my music which froze it >_>;; also playing vBrawl with the SD card in it it froze when I picked FD .-.

 

[JOE!]

that is the silliest MU related thing ive ever heard...Ike's neutral stance protects him from spaced grabs XD

also, Palkia spear pillar has the bottom, Dialga's does not, this intentional?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, It's supposed to be Dialga the only non-banned version of SP, so I think it's the only one that was fixed.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's BBrawl Eruption

I only saved the replay cause of boomerang eruption XD but thought might as well show all the uses i had. I kinda wish i saved all the eruptions i had on JOE's yoshi and bowser now XD

also..

rest needs a buff

 

[JOE!]

every time i played jiggs was to mess with mystery gift, yet you continued to fight XD

but yeah, that was ******** with rest.

any other vids?

 

[Ussi]

I figured you were but I gave you a real battle situation to try it out in.

 

[JOE!]

Allrighty then

NOTE TO ALL JIGGS PLAYERS:

spamming Mystery Gift is not advised in real combat

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thinkaman and I have had many conversations about Rest; there are several reasons it's probably not going to change.

 

[JOE!]

...which are?

 

[ぱみゅ]

overpolarizing her certain matchups on rest is easy to land... basically, that's it...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The main factor is that the characters Jigglypuff gets the most mileage out of Rest against are the ones she already does well against (the guys who don't hit very hard), and the guys she gets the least mileage out of Rest against are the ones she does worst against (the super disjointed guys who don't let her get close).

There is also the factor that we generally don't want to make Jigglypuff a very Rest-centric character like in a certain other game; it's just not what Brawl Jigglypuff is. It was honestly my personal intuition to give the move a small buff (so it killed at ~60% instead of ~80%), but leaving it alone had a pretty firm logical backing. Making it ridiculous like melee Rest where it could kill at just about any% was never on the table; let's be clear about that part.

 

[IrohDW]

The main factor is that the characters Jigglypuff gets the most mileage out of Rest against are the ones she already does well against (the guys who don't hit very hard), and the guys she gets the least mileage out of Rest against are the ones she does worst against (the super disjointed guys who don't let her get close).

There is also the factor that we generally don't want to make Jigglypuff a very Rest-centric character like in a certain other game; it's just not what Brawl Jigglypuff is. It was honestly my personal intuition to give the move a small buff (so it killed at ~60% instead of ~80%), but leaving it alone had a pretty firm logical backing. Making it ridiculous like melee Rest where it could kill at just about any% was never on the table; let's be clear about that part.

I think that what it really needs is more base knockback or less cooldown so that it isn't so unsafe on hit.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rest is one of few moves where I'd be more tempted to look into buffing the cooldown rather than knockback. However Rest really, really is not in need of change. The bottom line is that Jigglypuff already does fine in matchups where Rest is a viable, accessible move, while it is much harder to land in her problem matchups.

Thanks for the continued feedback guys, seriously. This is good discussion.

 

[JOE!]

Give it less cooldown, did you see the vid where ike was sent to off screen upwards at like 50%, and was able to come back down normally, then get in a charged fsmash?

I mean really XD

 

[Ussi]

Feedback on Pikachu:
I love Pikachu.. dthrow is amaaazing at setting up kills! Dthrow > nair is apparently guaranteed and dthrow > utilt/smash is guaranteed on fast fallers. Other than that Pikachu is the exact same in vBrawl so yea.. I need to play around with fthrow a bit though >_>

I'm gonna be uploading some Bbrawl matches tomorrow that i just had with JOE