Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Thinkaman]

This above any other change seems to be the most ... questionable.

Why was this change made? It seems to have made the character, well frankly a different one, like Ike2 or something. But this is only a preliminary and cursory viewpoint. After using him a while I may find that it isn't that major a change, but already I've gotten some nifty kills using aerial quick draw as a setup...

This *is* a much larger change than most others... probably any except for Ganon d-tilt. There's a reason Ike really didn't get any other changes.

Basically, Ike is a good but flawed character. Projectiles are just too polarizing to Ike, even more than they are against Ganondorf! It would be impossible for Ike to be decent against projectile users and not be way too good against the rest of the cast, nor for Ike to be balanced with the rest of the cast and not suck against projectile users. Aerial Quick Draw gives Ike just enough of an approach past projectiles to make his matchup spread within a balanced range.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

thnks i missed that, i admit im a noob when it comes to all this wii hakin n' stuff. haven't played brawl since like a year and know this balanced stuff is interesting

Trust me man, I hear ya. All this stuff is way over my head. I've only gotten stuff done because people have shown me how.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This *is* a much larger change than most others... probably any except for Ganon d-tilt. There's a reason Ike really didn't get any other changes.

Basically, Ike is a good but flawed character. Projectiles are just too polarizing to Ike, even more than they are against Ganondorf! It would be impossible for Ike to be decent against projectile users and not be way too good against the rest of the cast, nor for Ike to be balanced with the rest of the cast and not suck against projectile users. Aerial Quick Draw gives Ike just enough of an approach past projectiles to make his matchup spread within a balanced range.

QD change is cool...makes Ike's bad matchups less extremely out of his favor indeed.

Ike probably could have used alterations on U-throw or D-throw. Those throws are just plain unimpressive, which is dumb. Not that his F-throw and B-throw are all that amazing either. =/

But like it would be cool if D-throw was even slightly more viable as a high% KO move, and U-throw had easier setups. Well for that matter, it would be cool if his throws were just better, since he really doesn't get all that much out of Jab cancel grabbing, which is kinda a shame, considering that's the only thing he can land from Jab cancels with relative ease.

 

[Sucumbio]

This *is* a much larger change than most others... probably any except for Ganon d-tilt. There's a reason Ike really didn't get any other changes.

Basically, Ike is a good but flawed character. Projectiles are just too polarizing to Ike, even more than they are against Ganondorf! It would be impossible for Ike to be decent against projectile users and not be way too good against the rest of the cast, nor for Ike to be balanced with the rest of the cast and not suck against projectile users. Aerial Quick Draw gives Ike just enough of an approach past projectiles to make his matchup spread within a balanced range.

Ah! I see.. ok, well I'll buy that. have you seen this dramatically affecting Ike's match ups? I will be the first to admit projectile spam is a terrifying experience for Ikes lol lucas' pk fire comes to mind, against ganon and ike alike it is almost able to completely nullify their approaches without some serious effort.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas's PK Fire is mad easy to avoid. Easy powershield. He even yells PK Fire before using it.

Just saying.

 

[Linkshot]

Ganon and Ike take a moment to soil themselves after hearing it.

Just saying.

 

[I'mNotFire]

Even with the knockback/damage buff, I still would not use ZSS's forward smash without stunning the opponent first.


The stun time increase to neutral B is a good buff. I can more consistently follow up with a grab.

 

[NO-IDea]

Heh. I come back and find it interesting that the bowser discussion ended. Does that mean I made a ponit and they acknowledge it? Or, like me, they were away from their computer to read my point?

And yes A2Z, I referred to vBrawl Samus. I can see how Samus is easily top tier potential in bBrawl.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A few matches of me playing some WiFi with Swoops are now up on youtube (all four are Mr. Game & Watch versus Ganondorf). They're pretty good games for the most part, though I did include one match that had an unfortunate random SD...

Game 1: Final Destination
Game 2: Corneria
Game 3: Battlefield
Game 4: Pokemon Stadium 2

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon and Ike take a moment to soil themselves after hearing it.

Just saying.

I've actually played Lucas vs Ganondorf in vBrawl. It's really not a bad matchup for Ganondorf at all. Lucas's camping is really not hard to avoid in general, and Ganondorf for the most part outdoes him in terms of range and damage per hit. If you powershield PK fire in midrange (not hard at all) you get a free Dash Attack.

Lucas only won the matchup by a relatively small margin just because of the whole general "Ganondorf is unsafe on shields" and the fact Lucas could punish out of shield with some powerful KO moves. Lucas's N-air and D-smash were kinda stupid for Ganondorf to deal with in my experience.

@AA, will comment on vids.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Much like AmazingAmpharos, I have uploaded a few Balanced Brawl matches. A little heads up; the sound on my recording device crapped out and desynched it, so instead of ingame sounds, I have used BlazBlue music for the matches. I think I did a good job synching the gameplay with the music, so they should be entertaining to watch!

HotGarbage (Ganon) vs Mr Escalator (Ike)

HotGarbage (Ike) vs Mr Escalator (G&W)

HotGarbage (ROB) vs Mr Escalator (G&W)

The last one is my favorite of the bunch, but it doesn't actually show ROB's changes in BBrawl too well. Who cares! x)
Note, these are just WiFi friendlies. Not a big deal.
Also, they all have the HD option if that's up your alley.

Hope you find these an entertaining watch!

 

[A2ZOMG]

AA, you're so predictable. Especially in the first two matches, seriously...you don't mix up. At all...There are many situations where SH -> D-tilt or F-air out of shield/fullhop F-air for example would have been a superior option for controlling space. You missed a lot of shieldgrab opportunities too. I don't know if you're just doing this for wifi, or just because G&W is terrible on wifi, but really, I expected more from you. =/

Swoops, you're good as always. I was impressed at how you were generally good at picking the right option in later matches (D-tilt to outrange various things G&W whiffs on the ground next to you is good). Not much else I can say, since your Ganon is still better than mine lol.

Hotgarbage is pretty good. I always felt like he was good at picking the right option, even if in the first match he got messed up by terrain.

Mr. Escalator, I quite liked your G&W. Spacing on wifi is impossible, but I was pretty impressed by your prediction.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A2, you need to keep in mind two things. For one, my opponent is Ganondorf; I'm obviously going to be conservative. Given that his character hits twice as hard as mine and combos about three times as well, risky situations are basically universally in his favor. For two, you can also mix up things such as subtle spacing which, while harder on WiFi, is a much bigger focus for me. Turtle zoning is far and away the obvious best strategy in that matchup, and other than for a bit in game 4 where he landed a Flame Choke too many for my tastes, I wasn't really getting punished for it. In those matches, we tied 2-2, but over the whole amount we played G&W vs Ganon I had a fairly sound winning record. What I was doing was working, and I don't think that's "predictable" at all.

Zoning with fair is a terrible idea in general. Not only does it make your fastest kill option stale, but it is a really laggy and punishable move compared to turtle.

I did use dtilt to some extent, but dtilt ultimately requires me to be on the ground which is fairly risky since he can much more easily time a Wizard's Foot/Flame Choke to punish a dtilt whiff (while smart use of the landing hitbox on the turtle makes it much harder to punish).

As per the shieldgrabbing, I was just conservative. The loss I suffer if I whiff a grab at close range to Ganon is huge, and the gain from grabbing him is generally small (only later did I realize how vulnerable swoops as a player was to my fake chaingrab).

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The main thing that struck me from the little I watched of AA's matches was his lack of Nair in positions Ganondorf couldn't deal with, generally when he was above and in no position to DownB (I'm not even sure if aerial downB beats the disjointedness of Nair).

Dtilt cant be punished by Ganon's grounded DownB. I don't know if it's common knowledge, or something you have realized, but Ganon can't hit G&W during Dtilt because of G&W's ever so slight crouching. The cooldown on Dtilt also makes it hard to believe a flame choke is even really viable.

I'd like to say, however, that you shouldn't be hard on AA, A2ZOMG. He's playing on wifi against one the characters you WANT to over abuse turtle. It didn't make for much interesting gameplay, but if it works, who are we to judge?

I doubt AA plays like that offline versus characters like MK.

Also, thanks a lot for the compliment! I think G&W's mixup game is really important to his overall gameplay, so my G&W in particular tries to emphasize G&W's numerous options. Spacing and powershielding are indeed really hard on wifi, which leads me to agree with you that G&W doesn't gain really anything important to lose these two things and in general prefers offline play.

 

[Tin Man]

I hope its ok to ask questions in this thread, in order to play online properly, I have to have the same GCT file as my opponent, and only that file has 2 be the same with my opponent's correct?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I clashed with Wizard's Foot using dtilt several times; I'm pretty sure Ganon can hit with it. Of course, normal ducking goes under Wizard's Foot, but I think Ganon can hit you if you're actually doing dtilt and not protected at that time by the hitbox (dtilt isn't as safe as it looks sometimes). Of course, dtilt also kills your mobility for a maximum reward of 6%; it's a good move, but it's pretty far from spammable.

I hope its ok to ask questions in this thread, in order to play online properly, I have to have the same GCT file as my opponent, and only that file has 2 be the same with my opponent's correct?

yes

 

[A2ZOMG]

I view the Ganon matchup MUCH differently from you do AA.

A2, you need to keep in mind two things. For one, my opponent is Ganondorf; I'm obviously going to be conservative.

Playing conservative is good against Ganondorf, but at the same time, you want to keep the pressure on him. You don't want to give him the opportunity to space since he has more range. Staying out of his range only gives him more time to space, while you can outspeed and poke him if you know how to weave in his range.

Given that his character hits twice as hard as mine and combos about three times as well

False assumption. G&W hits almost as hard as Ganondorf and is infinitely safer on the moves he hits hard with. It's just as easy to N-air juggle Ganondorf as it is to flame choke D-tilt G&W, and G&W can do soooooo much to edgeguard Ganondorf (D-air him out of Up-B, F-air to gimp him, etc).

risky situations are basically universally in his favor. For two, you can also mix up things such as subtle spacing which, while harder on WiFi, is a much bigger focus for me. Turtle zoning is far and away the obvious best strategy in that matchup, and other than for a bit in game 4 where he landed a Flame Choke too many for my tastes, I wasn't really getting punished for it. In those matches, we tied 2-2, but over the whole amount we played G&W vs Ganon I had a fairly sound winning record. What I was doing was working, and I don't think that's "predictable" at all.

Works well enough I guess. Ultimately Ganondorf doesn't have much on conservative play.

Zoning with fair is a terrible idea in general. Not only does it make your fastest kill option stale, but it is a really laggy and punishable move compared to turtle.

The goal in this matchup is to get him offstage so you can gimp him. F-air is much less prone to SDI too, and keep in mind, all it takes to gimp him is a weak hit offstage -> edgehog. This is the way I play. Staling F-air is not an issue in this matchup at all.

Fullhop F-airs hit Ganondorf even if he crouches keep in mind.

Besides, it's not even hard to land a Smash on him. His DA and wizkick can be smashed out of shield if you do it right. If you shield a getup attack at the ledge, that can also be smashed out of shield.

I did use dtilt to some extent, but dtilt ultimately requires me to be on the ground which is fairly risky since he can much more easily time a Wizard's Foot/Flame Choke to punish a dtilt whiff (while smart use of the landing hitbox on the turtle makes it much harder to punish).

D-tilt has less commitment than B-air, and is more likely to get him in a disadvantageous position.

As per the shieldgrabbing, I was just conservative. The loss I suffer if I whiff a grab at close range to Ganon is huge, and the gain from grabbing him is generally small (only later did I realize how vulnerable swoops as a player was to my fake chaingrab).

The reward you get for barely connecting B-airs the way you did is much smaller than getting a grab, while shielding is just as safe, if not safer than running away and spacing (since you can spotdodge if he does flame choke).

If he spotdodges grab, who cares? At best, he can only Jab to punish it, or shieldgrab if you try to shield. There really isn't any point in not grabbing when in close range. Ganondorf can't punish it in close range like most characters.

In this matchup, obviously you're going to play safely against him, but you don't want to give him a chance to space and set up.

 

[JOE!]

this has allways bugged me, the more ive learned abotu G&W (which is unfortunatley rather ecently...as AA was the first good G&W ive played <.<)

what moves of his are actually...punishable aside from bucket in melee range and a whiffed side B?

 

[A2ZOMG]

this has allways bugged me, the more ive learned abotu G&W (which is unfortunatley rather ecently...as AA was the first good G&W ive played <.<)

what moves of his are actually...punishable aside from bucket in melee range and a whiffed side B?

Punishing G&W is not the way to approach him. Interrupting and outspacing him is the way to approach the matchup. If he spaces properly, his stuff generally isn't very punishable.

You can sometimes punish his B-air if you're lucky enough to be able to SDI closer to him. His F-air is punishable on block if he lands it (assuming you can get in range). His D-air is punishable on block if you're in range to punish it. F-tilt is punishable on block.

Obviously his Smashes for the most part are unpunishable.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Fsmash is quite unsafe on block as is ftilt. Fair is in general not a safe move at all. Dair isn't particularly safe either, but G&W can be pretty smart with it to make punishing it hard. If he misspaces turtle, it's very unsafe, but if he spaces it correctly, you can't really do anything. Depending on context, you can potentially punish dsmash and dtilt on block. Usmash on whiff is very unsafe. G&W's grab is fairly unsafe as well. Chef has tons of commitment. In general, you shouldn't just look to punish him as there are a lot of other things you need to do when fighting him that are more important, but the punishments are there if you know where to look.

The thing with dtilt versus bair is that you are not moving while using dtilt while you are moving while using bair. Giving up your mobility is a huge sacrifice.

You really have to be joking if you think G&W hits as hard as Ganon. G&W is a power character, but Ganon is obscenely powerful. Ganondorf is more powerful than IKE, let alone G&W.

Nair juggling is a lot less practical against good players since they'll airdodge and mix up fastfalling and air control to make your life hard, and Ganons can be even more obnoxious by using Wizard's Foot in the air. Against bad players though (with swoops definitely not being a bad player), it does indeed clean up. G&W is basically autowin against a weak player no doubt, and nair juggling is one of his many tricks that makes this true. I do want to be clear that keeping opponents in the air and racking up damage with nair is a great G&W tactic no doubt, but it is definitely nowhere near Ganon's techchases or even dair follow-ups in terms of utility when both players are at an acceptably high level. The opponent just has so many more options when up in the air.

Sitting there shielding, depleting my shield which is a precious resource, is in no way even a fraction as safe as spacing a bair which has huge protective hitboxes and allows me to move fairly freely while I use it. So, what if I sit there and shield and he does nothing? Now I'm forced to put myself at frame disadvantage ending the shield with no mobility at all, and I have depleted my shield so I can protect myself less in the immediate future.

Dark Dive is simply too good for gimping to be your main kill method against Ganon (it's not just how powerful it is; it's also a fast and safe vertical recovery move in general). Granted, I could be better at gimping Ganon than I am (which is not very good at all), but Ganon's gimpability is somewhat overstated. The real advantage you have to leverage against Ganon is his low mobility outside of grounded rushing moves. Of course, he leverages his own advantages (such as ridiculous power and follow-ups), and in the end, the matchup is probably slightly in Ganon's favor (like 55-45 Ganon wins, swings to G&W's favor on some stages like Rainbow Cruise).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fsmash is quite unsafe on block as is ftilt.

F-smash is VERY safe on block. Like the only attack that is fast enough that has enough range to punish it is Wolf's F-smash, and Wolf's F-smash is just gay.

Fair is in general not a safe move at all.

Fullhops are actually quite difficult to punish considering that many characters have trouble hitting at the angle at which you would consider punishing it. The hitbox also lingers, making it even harder to punish on whiff.

Depending on context, you can potentially punish dsmash and dtilt on block. Usmash on whiff is very unsafe. G&W's grab is fairly unsafe as well. Chef has tons of commitment. In general, you shouldn't just look to punish him as there are a lot of other things you need to do when fighting him that are more important, but the punishments are there if you know where to look.

D-smash is pretty much always safe on block. D-tilt is safe on block unless you space it poorly. U-smash is actually safe on whiff since you can just run away or shield after the attack ends.

The thing with dtilt versus bair is that you are not moving while using dtilt while you are moving while using bair. Giving up your mobility is a huge sacrifice.

I don't view it that way. What I do is I mix up my aerial approach by jumping around and throwing out D-tilts as I land. You're not really moving as the landing hitbox of B-air happens, but that hit has much less reward, and is already anticipated several frames in advance. D-tilt lingers quite a bit and puts people in a tougher position, not to mention it stops more aerial approaches.

You really have to be joking if you think G&W hits as hard as Ganon. G&W is a power character, but Ganon is obscenely powerful. Ganondorf is more powerful than IKE, let alone G&W.

Only Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, U-tilt, F-smash, D-air, F-air, and aerial Down-B are "obscenely" powerful. G&W's Smashes are stronger than Ganondorf's F-air and Ganon's two other Smashes. G&W's N-air is only outdamaged by Ganon's air game if Ganon lands both hits of N-air, sweetspotted F-air, and non-sourspotted D-air, all of which are much more situational by far. G&W's F-air is stronger than Ganon's U-air and B-air if I recall.

Yeah, some of G&W's stuff is more oriented towards quick control and poking, but his stuff that is strong is either comparable to, if not actually stronger than Ganon's stuff. The only time Ganondorf definitively hits harder is on F-smash really.

Nair juggling is a lot less practical against good players since they'll airdodge and mix up fastfalling and air control to make your life hard, and Ganons can be even more obnoxious by using Wizard's Foot in the air. Against bad players though (with swoops definitely not being a bad player), it does indeed clean up. G&W is basically autowin against a weak player no doubt, and nair juggling is one of his many tricks that makes this true. I do want to be clear that keeping opponents in the air and racking up damage with nair is a great G&W tactic no doubt, but it is definitely nowhere near Ganon's techchases or even dair follow-ups in terms of utility when both players are at an acceptably high level. The opponent just has so many more options when up in the air.

I don't think you're aggressive enough to understand this. If you're ever in doubt, you can just Up-B, and that gets Ganondorf offstage if he attacks, and he really can't punish you as you come down if you miss.

N-air -> N-air at low percents is pretty much a true combo that does over 30%, and it puts Ganondorf in a position that's very hard to escape if you pressure him.

Sitting there shielding, depleting my shield which is a precious resource, is in no way even a fraction as safe as spacing a bair which has huge protective hitboxes and allows me to move fairly freely while I use it. So, what if I sit there and shield and he does nothing? Now I'm forced to put myself at frame disadvantage ending the shield with no mobility at all, and I have depleted my shield so I can protect myself less in the immediate future.

Shield restores pretty quickly, and Ganondorf's only attack that has a remote chance of shield poking is N-air. If you really need to replenish it, just run away and edgecamp.

Even if he does nothing, you're at an advantage in terms of options that you can use to escape or control. It's *very* unlikely he can simply just react to shield drop and punish if you just blatantly attack him out of the blue. He doesn't want to attack your shield as it is, so generally, he's going to be forced to shield to prepare for your next option. Which unfortunately for him, is usually safe on block.

Dark Dive is simply too good for gimping to be your main kill method against Ganon (it's not just how powerful it is; it's also a fast and safe vertical recovery move in general). Granted, I could be better at gimping Ganon than I am (which is not very good at all), but Ganon's gimpability is somewhat overstated. The real advantage you have to leverage against Ganon is his low mobility outside of grounded rushing moves. Of course, he leverages his own advantages (such as ridiculous power and follow-ups), and in the end, the matchup is probably slightly in Ganon's favor (like 55-45 Ganon wins, swings to G&W's favor on some stages like Rainbow Cruise).

Wooooooooow...I don't believe what you just said.

Gimping Ganondorf. Is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EASY.

No seriously, it's as easy as just randomly throwing out B-airs as G&W. You just throw out F-air wherever he is, and it owns him. Very few questions asked. His Up-B has bad priority. You should never be getting grabbed by it unless he gets extremely lucky.

This matchup is 65/35 G&W overall. He can't punish your zoning. You **** him terribly offstage due to how bad the priority of his Up-B is. He has no realistic way of landing flame choke when you're not screwing up. Seriously, TERRIBLE matchup for Ganondorf.

I've played this matchup more than anyone else...seriously.

I have some old vBrawl matches of me vs Ray_Kalm, another good Ganondorf. You should watch those. =/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOF2P-xvRTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VruRddkGKb0&feature=related

 

[SaltyKracka]

You really have to be joking if you think G&W hits as hard as Ganon. G&W is a power character, but Ganon is obscenely powerful. Ganondorf is more powerful than IKE, let alone G&W.

Going to have to disagree here. The only moves Ganondorf has that kill at percents comparable to G&W's smashes are his own and utilt/WP, only one of which (fsmash) is actually at all useful. G&W's smashes, on the other hand, are ridiculously fast, powerful, and safe.

Dark Dive is simply too good for gimping to be your main kill method against Ganon (it's not just how powerful it is; it's also a fast and safe vertical recovery move in general). Granted, I could be better at gimping Ganon than I am (which is not very good at all), but Ganon's gimpability is somewhat overstated. The real advantage you have to leverage against Ganon is his low mobility outside of grounded rushing moves. Of course, he leverages his own advantages (such as ridiculous power and follow-ups), and in the end, the matchup is probably slightly in Ganon's favor (like 55-45 Ganon wins, swings to G&W's favor on some stages like Rainbow Cruise).

Dark Dive is simply too good for gimping to be your main kill method against Ganon (it's not just how powerful it is; it's also a fast and safe vertical recovery move in general).

DARK DIVE. GOOD. FAST AND SAFE

*hyli edit size*

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think the Ganons you guys play just suck with Dark Dive, or maybe you're still confused by the version that is unsafe on hit. This is reminding me of the people who think Ness can be generally gimped when he uses Pk Thunder; it's true on a casual inspection, but once you play anyone good with Ness, you realize it's not an accurate assessment.

 

[Linkshot]

That post reeks of infraction.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh, no. G&W doesn't punish Ganondorf out of Dark Dive hit. Ganondorf gets punished because Dark Dive is slow and has terrible speed and priority and predictability. G&W is the number one character in this game at ****** predictable recoveries that easily get gimped by light hits.

Ray_Kalm is one of the best Ganondorf players in North America, by far a MUCH better player than me. The fact I 2stocked him a lot in the G&W matchup just goes to show you how horrible the matchup was for Ganondorf in vBrawl. The part that made it horrible...hasn't changed at all. =/

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think the Ganons you guys play just suck with Dark Dive, or maybe you're still confused by the version that is unsafe on hit. This is reminding me of the people who think Ness can be generally gimped when he uses Pk Thunder; it's true on a casual inspection, but once you play anyone good with Ness, you realize it's not an accurate assessment.

Stop deluding yourself.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I reported your post. You could probably at least edit that post as to not be obnoxious or stretch the page.

I do agree that Dark Dive is poor unless you let yourself get hit. I also agree that you want to get Ganon offstage, as well as mixup moves besides just the Turtle.

I would like to note, however, that the Ganon v G&W matchup has DEFINITELY improved because of how much G&W gets wrecked by side B. I am skeptical that Ganon has the advantage, though. It still seems like a good matchup for us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Amazing Ampharos...this is my observation. You play a lot like I did months ago. When I was a much worse player and much more pessimistic about G&W and his bad matchups (not to mention, I was the first person who thought that vs Ganondorf was a mere 6/4 matchup in vBrawl. I don't think that anymore now that I'm a better player in general).

I used to be super conservative with G&W, relying just on predictable spacing believing it was unbeatable and G&W's only reliable strategy. That's not merely what makes G&W good at all. His zoning game and mixups are extremely good, combined with the fact his Smashes and well-spaced or intelligently used F-air are nearly unpunishable. Yeah yeah, you can tell me Marth has a better zoning game. Doesn't change the fact G&W has top tier zoning tools too and some pretty awesome baits.

You gotta speed it up dude. Try out new tricks, learn new ways to be aggressive (AND safe at the same time). Swoops himself has done a lot of this to better his own game, and this is part of the reason why he gave you so much trouble in those matches you posted. You're too slow.

That being said, Ganondorf does do better against G&W than he did before. The matchup however was at least 7/3 G&W (potentially 8/2) in vBrawl. It's 65/35 in BBrawl. Still completely awful. The only time I lose this matchup is when I do something that's stupid like getting myself edgehogged. However the number of times Ganondorf can hit G&W is extremely limited.

 

[bleyva]

i dont get why youre all over Ampharos. he legitimately beat Swoops, whats with all the harsh crits?

 

[YagamiLight]

Amazing Ampharos...this is my observation. You play a lot like I did months ago. When I was a much worse player and much more pessimistic about G&W and his bad matchups ...

Pardon my intrusion, but this is just rude. I think it is completely uncalled for to compare Amazing Ampharos's play with yours when you were "much worse." AA's videos, especially those of his offline play, demonstrate game knowledge to a high degree. If this particular Ganon video shows him using turtle a lot due to that being the only thing between Game and Watch and death then that is how the match-up is. There is NO need to call AA a predictable and poor player.

 

[SaltyKracka]

i dont get why youre all over Ampharos. he legitimately beat Swoops, whats with all the harsh crits?

Swoops is one of the best Ganon's out there. Ampharos, from what I've seen, is a good G&W, but nothing special. He then has the gall to claim that the matchup is in Ganon's favor, which would put him on the same skill level as Swoops, which he's most definitely not.

Oh, and then he up and posted a totally idiotic statement.

 

[TP]

I can personally vouch for AA's skill. I have not actually played him, but I have seen him play in tourney. He knows what he is doing. I think that all of you are forgetting exactly how different online play is. If you guys are legitimately concerned about the matchup, I will play him next time he comes to town and see what happens. In the meantime, there are over 1,000 other matchups to bicker about.

Also, I just made Carbondale, Illinois pick up BBrawl. 1 city down...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pardon my intrusion, but this is just rude. I think it is completely uncalled for to compare Amazing Ampharos's play with yours when you were "much worse." AA's videos, especially those of his offline play, demonstrate game knowledge to a high degree. If this particular Ganon video shows him using turtle a lot due to that being the only thing between Game and Watch and death then that is how the match-up is. There is NO need to call AA a predictable and poor player.

AA lost some of the matches he posted.

And actually, that's not how the matchup is supposed to play. Ganondorf is supposed to get 2stocked when G&W plays the matchup right.

And seriously, you don't understand. He's just plain wrong about multiple things in general. Don't pretend that he's right about his matchup opinions. They are slanted and not good representation of what actually happens.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You watch me play four WiFi friendlies (emphasis on both WiFi AND friendlies here), matches that were specifically chosen because they were close (which means these were swoop's best matches against me; we played way more G&W vs Ganon and I won a ton of them, granted a lot of them were bad games). You're looking at Ganondorf, an extreme character. You frankly have no business judging my ability or my playstyle in any way at all. I can tell you that you are really misjudging Bbrawl Ganon in a lot of ways, and you're using that as a logical starting point to make some very wrong conclusions that are really just plain offensive.

The main purpose of those videos was to show a lot of what Ganon is capable of and to show the game being played in general. The salient points here are things like that 75% techchase off Flame Choke (which I didn't really make any dire mistakes the whole way). It does show a lot of the flavor of that matchup, though do feel free to try other tactics if you want. The fact that you're trying to make these bold judgments about things like the skill of either player is fairly absurd. I have no idea if I'm better than swoops. We'd have to play offline tournament/money matches to get a good idea, though even offline friendlies where we agree to not hold back/be exploratory (swoops was consistently taking huge risks with Dark Dive that you guys mostly didn't see, obviously just exploring) would be a drastic improvement over what we actually played if comparing our skill was the goal.

I remain confident in my matchup assessment (the biggest factor here is how poorly G&W fares at the tech chase game) and stand by the assertion that you guys are really just misjudging the way some things can be used and the overall merit of Bbrawl Ganon (really so much ridiculously better than standard Brawl Ganon), but TP really makes the best suggestion of all. He mains Ganon (in standard Brawl even), plays Bbrawl, and lives in the same state as I do... even if on the opposite side. We will doubtless play before all that long, and I'll be able to give far more detailed impressions of the matchup at that point and maybe even some replays of play that is far more representative of more serious play. In any case, let's just drop this argument for now. This is not even close to an argument worth having.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well seriously, if you're going to accurately show what Ganondorf is capable of, get better matches recorded. Seriously.

My point stands that Ganondorf is horrible and doesn't have enough tools to be a viable character, and you frankly, are doing a pretty stupid job of trying to make a biased impression otherwise.

And seriously, you're just plain wrong if you think it's in Ganon's favor. <_<

 

[Eyada]

It's good to see that the discussion here hasn't degraded into childish name calling, subtle insults, or asinine play-ground level debate tactics.

Ad hominem; it's Latin for "extremely effective debating technique".

...

The AA v. Swoops videos were nice. It's nice to finally see a Ganon who regularly uses D-Tilt on shield to pressure and space.

Edit: I type too slowly. 3 new posts in the time it took to type this.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I can tell you that you are really misjudging Ganon in a lot of ways, and you're using that as a logical starting point to make some very wrong conclusions that are really just plain offensive.

Funny, that was the gist of my previous post.

 

[Kitamerby]

Honestly, I'm really curious if buffing every single one of Lucario's most unsafe attacks (minus Double Team) is really supposed to make him as good as Diddy Kong, considering the fact that they're still unsafe, still useless, and now may even be more limited as the strings from before may not work as well due to possible extra knockback? Wouldn't have been better to simply remove all of those "buffs" in favor of reducing the ending lag on ftilt, which would've made it a safe poke, something that Lucario is seriously lacking and possibly would've allowed for a style change from Lucario being a horriblely mediocre defensive character into one with actual offensive potential and a safe poke? Or possibly giving fair or nair less landing lag so it can combo better, or a 3-frame jab, or a better grab, or something... Although I doubt even with all of these he'd be as good as Diddy Kong...

Is giving Sonic a very weak spike on the spring really supposed to be that game changing to put him on the same level as a character who can spawn infinite-priority tripping projectiles that can be thrown vast distances while glide tossing to create legitimate combos in brawl?

I mean Falco now has two close, combo-powerful throws, including one that nearly combos into his kill moves, DK gets actual buffs to moves that matter, ZSS gets buffs to her paralyzing moves, while Sonic gets stuck with a very, very insignificant buff to a move which basically does the exact same thing as it did before, which was to gimp people who don't know that uair beats the spring, and Lucario gets buffs on every single move that doesn't matter when a few simple basic frame changes would've sufficed instead of trying to make every single move that he still shouldn't use slightly less useless

In all due respect, I love what you're trying to do, and I love the ideas that you had for some characters, and they're fun and all, but I really think that for some of the more obscure characters like Sonic, you didn't actually know what really would've made them "as good as Diddy Kong," and probably would've done better with actual input from the mains...

Just my two cents. Maybe I'm just being picky with Lucario, but it's sort of obvious that Sonic's not up to par yet, as he also seems to be tweaked in the wrong places... :<

 

[Craeter]

Is it still necessary to delete all custom stages if you load balanced brawl through homebrew?

 

[Leon89]

Is it still necessary to delete all custom stages if you load balanced brawl through homebrew?

no you can keep your custom stages if you use the homebrew channel