Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Leon89]

i'll do it Jumpman, just give me a sec to get the game running and find my friend code.

 

[PKNintendo]

Darned Wii is in use.
But I'll play you next weekend.

 

[Leon89]

i've got a game up 3 man survival.

 

[GwJ]

ok, i'll add your FC and join.

 

[Crescens]

It strikes me that Samus' new dair against a grounded opponent doesn't guarantee a dtilt followup for as long anymore. An utilt is feasible instead (sometimes) I suppose, but overall the move is ever so slightly worse for followups. Not that I mind, however; the benefits of increased knockback far outweigh the disadvantage. I would like to know what was intended with the uthrow. I think it's just a tad to high to be good for followups, yet not high enough to buy time. Despite the terribble damage, I think I'll find myself using the dthrow due to the way it can set up a fair. Forwards and back throws seem pretty much perfect.

ZSS; I don't think the buffs are so significant as you suggest, AA. The dtilt is ridiculous now; even in vBrawl it was my most used melee option; now it's even better. However, in vBrawl, I feel Zamus is the most overrated character in the game. Ironically, for precisely the reason you mentioned - she doesn't show up on the character select screen. Not many play her, so nobody has any experience fighting her. Zamus has, in theory one of the most ridiculously overpowered movesets in the game. Unfortuantely, these moves are all very situational. In any situation, there are only 1-2 options that are viable - once the opponent realizes this, Zamus is very easy to predict and punish. The paralyzer actually helps with this a bit, but nonetheless, I think she's one of the weaker characters in BBrawl.

Ness and Lucas would be high tier in vBrawl if it weren't for a select few matchups. With Falco and Dedede chains gone, Marth & co. without grab releasing, the kids are ridiculous. Ness, at least, I wouldn't hesitate to put somewhere near the very top of a tier list. I'm not entirely sure about Lucas.

As far as unchanged characters go, I would be more worried about Diddy than Marth or G&W. The latter two are the ones getting all the attention in this thread - but it's Diddy who's been dominating lately. Most notably - and relevant in BBrawl discussion - is Diddy's overwhelming performance at HOBO17 where MK was banned. Even against the likes of Marth, G&W and Snake, Diddy clearly dominated the scoreboard.

Other than that, there are simply so many characters to whom few/no highly competent players have dedicated any tangible amount of time to in vBrawl. Not many know how to play them in vBrawl, so naturally they're not getting much representation in BBrawl, where everyone wants to play their mains. As things progress, I'm sure people will begin to notice the strengths of the Pokés and such.

In any case, I (and presumably much of the community) would be interested in reading some sort of analysis of what sort of thoughts went into each character and each buff - (sort of) like you have done over at the Ganon forums already. Many of the buffs (ex. Falcon) are subtle, but really go a long ways towards promoting certain followups or other strategies. Obviously a lot of thought went into each change and it would be interesting to know precisely what strategies, matchups and followups various buffs were intended to act upon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly G&W I think actually needs a small buff, if anything to make his matchups vs MK, Marth, and Snake more manageable.

Like slightly increase the knockback of his F-air or something. In high level play, this should be his most used aerial due to its general reliability. Getting more oomph from it should go some way in helping G&W bring his edgeguarding to use against those problem matchups.

And by the way, nobody really needs to worry about Diddy being too good. He's already significantly nerfed by the way tripping was changed in this game.

 

[GwJ]

Sorry I had to leave so early Leon. My mom went back to college so she has homework, so she kicked my dad out of the other room with the TV and I told him to come in here and watch TV. I'm such a good person. Also, BBrawl is win.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness and Lucas would be high tier in vBrawl if it weren't for a select few matchups. With Falco and Dedede chains gone, Marth & co. without grab releasing, the kids are ridiculous. Ness, at least, I wouldn't hesitate to put somewhere near the very top of a tier list. I'm not entirely sure about Lucas.

High tier is going a bit overboard, but definetely a good mid. Lucas too. (although Ness is decidedly better.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Before I try to address more serious concerns, I'd like to say that the most damaging hitbox in the game is now officially the tip of Ness's bat. Fully charged and fresh, it does about 39.3%.

New Record!

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W needs no buff... I mean really, Snake and MK got Nerfed. A ton of stages are more viable, too; more starters makes these matchups that much easier in vBrawl coupled with their nerfs make matchups winnable.

Marth has always been rarer, and the matchup isn't worse than 6:4. So why, then, does he need a buff?

Diddy does enjoy the walkoffs being counterpickable. I'll give him that much, but I still think G&W trumps him!

edit: That's cool, Thinkaman, but isn't Bowser's fsmash still more damaging? Oh wait, I see what you mean. Bowser's fsmash has two hitboxes, EH? Very cool, Ness.

 

[Leon89]

Sorry I had to leave so early Leon. My mom went back to college so she has homework, so she kicked my dad out of the other room with the TV and I told him to come in here and watch TV. I'm such a good person. Also, BBrawl is win.

it's ok, that was my first time on WiFi any ways, the only other people i have ever played are my best friend who is a yoshi/CFalcon main, and random people who are generally newbies at the game. but i had fun, ether way.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness and Lucas aren't all that good. For one main reason.

A lot of their best ways of dealing damage borders on gimmicky. Neither of them has very good range except on a few specific attacks (which are all very situational at best). And they don't have much of anything that has really low ending lag, so in general there is a fair bit of commitment on whatever they do. Their grabs in fact are laggier than most too, which is a problem if a lot of your power rests on getting grabs.

That being said, I think Lucas is better than Ness in BBrawl. Mainly because he got a buff that actually helps him land moves, while something like the buff on Ness's PK Fire assumes that Ness is actually able to land that attack (which is really not easy at all).

G&W needs no buff... I mean really, Snake and MK got Nerfed. A ton of stages are more viable, too; more starters makes these matchups that much easier in vBrawl coupled with their nerfs make matchups winnable.

Marth has always been rarer, and the matchup isn't worse than 6:4. So why, then, does he need a buff?

I suggested it because those are examples of rather stupid matchups. It's difficult to punish Marth, MK, and Snake when they start shieldcamping, and I suggested a buff like that to make these particular matchups more reasonable.

That's just my opinion, but I guess it could be fine the way it is now.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

OBJECTION!
Thinkaman, Have you forgotten about OIL PANIC?

 

[Thinkaman]

Anyone want to PM me a tier list based on first impressions? It's actually pretty fun to do. Remember to compare your list to the standard tier list. In fact, you can group that by that like so:

Let's say I think... (just gonna use random characters for the example) Wolf, ZSS, Marth, and Pokemon Trainer are the top 4 characters, better than vFalco but not as good as vWario. Then more characters down the list, until let's say I think Mario and Snake are the worst, and are worst than vKirby but better than vLucario.

Tier 1: (Between vWario and vFalco)
Wolf
ZSS
Marth
PT
Tier 2: (Between vFalco and vDiddy)
ect
ect
ect
Tier 11: (Between vKirby and vLucario)
Mario
Snake

Like that. So in other words, divide into groups, then divide those groups into groups, then make the cutoff points in your list the vBrawl characters.

It'll be really interesting to see, and even more interesting when we do it again in a few months.

OBJECTION!
Thinkaman, Have you forgotten about OIL PANIC?

OBJECTION! If Oil Panic counts, so does Counter! Variable attacks are invalid!

 

[Mr. Escalator]

They aren't invalid at all. Counter counts as much as Oil Panic. The point is that Ness' tipper bat isnt the most damage single hitbox. Counter and Oil Panic are clear counter examples.

 

[PKNintendo]

Before I try to address more serious concerns, I'd like to say that the most damaging hitbox in the game is now officially the tip of Ness's bat. Fully charged and fresh, it does about 39.3%.

New Record!

Indeed.

Ness and Lucas aren't all that good. For one main reason.

A lot of their best ways of dealing damage borders on gimmicky. Neither of them has very good range except on a few specific attacks (which are all very situational at best). And they don't have much of anything that has really low ending lag, so in general there is a fair bit of commitment on whatever they do. Their grabs in fact are laggier than most too, which is a problem if a lot of your power rests on getting grabs.

Very vague statements here lol. I love how you lump them together lol.

Ness aerial master mainly dealing damage with Fair's and Nair's. PK Fire is AMAZING in BBrawl too. Most of Ness attacks are lagless, albeit the bat and PK Flash too. Ness dash grab is quick and has good range too.

You clearly have no idea what your talking about and your pulling **** out of your arse.

That being said, I think Lucas is better than Ness in BBrawl. Mainly because he got a buff that actually helps him land moves, while something like the buff on Ness's PK Fire assumes that Ness is actually able to land that attack (which is really not easy at all).

No no Ness was always better.
I can't do a side by side comparison but Ness is better than Lucas for the same reason Luigi is better than Mario.

Clearly if you knew more about said characters you'd know that PKF buff is huge. Landing it is no more hard than landing most moves. It's TOTALLY worth in Brawl. The damage is does is good.

 

[Thinkaman]

To make everyone's lives easy, here's the formatting I used when making a personal impression tier list just now.

Balanced Brawl First Impressions Tier List
Tag: Thinkaman
vBrawl Range: vWario -> vLucario

Tier 1 (Between vWario and vFalco)
------------


Tier 2 (Between vFalco and vDiddy)
------------


Tier 3 (Between vDiddy and vDDD)
------------


Tier 4 (Between vDDD and vMarth)
------------


Tier 5 (Between vMarth and vG&W)
------------


Tier 6 (Between vG&W and vPikachu)
------------


Tier 7 (Between vPikachu and vICs)
------------


Tier 8 (Between v ICs and vROB)
------------


Tier 9 (Between vROB and vKirby)
------------


Tier 10 (Between vKirby and vLucario)
------------

I took my placings of the characters out obviously, but you might still have a different range in mind. Maybe you think a BBrawl character is even stronger than vMK, or perhaps you just think someone in particular is really bad, maybe all the way down between say vFox and vWolf. It's also very possible for you to have some blank spots, if you don't think any BBrawl characters fall into a given range. (I hope not, since that would mean there is a big gap between some characters!)

I look forward to anyone who wants to fill one of these suckers out.

 

[Fox Hater]

I got a few questions since im not going to read all the pages before this one.


1- are people doing tournaments of this game? if so are there any vids?
2- is this taken seriously by the comunity like making this the standard way of playing brawl.
3- Is this the final build. Cause im scared people will start to cry if they lose to a character and start asking for more buffs or nerfs. and thats not good for the comunity
4- did they added hitstun to the game?
5- is this the same as brawl +?

Im really exited about this proyect so that is why im asking these question regarding brawl.

 

[PKNintendo]

1-Yes.
2-It should be. vBBrawl is 99.9% better than BBrawl in nearly every single way.
3-No. Not until 5 or 6 months in.
4-No.
5-No.

This is basically vBrawl without the cheese factor.

 

[Thinkaman]

In reverse order!

5- is this the same as brawl +?

Not even close.

4- did they added hitstun to the game?

No. there are no overall physics changes, including anything related to control, speed, or movement. The main thing here is adding or subtracting small amounts of power from certain moves.

3- Is this the final build. Cause im scared people will start to cry if they lose to a character and start asking for more buffs or nerfs. and thats not good for the comunity

A good concern. This is the final version, though we would like to do update in the future on a long-term basis. We will only make future changes after the same long consideration taken to make the changes you see now. We won't do anything by committee or by votes; that only starts a slow slide towards all the characters being the same.

2- is this taken seriously by the comunity like making this the standard way of playing brawl.

I guess that's up to people like you, right? How much this catches on is purely a function of how much people like it and prefer to play it. The fact that you can go back and forth between BBrawl and normal Brawl with no trouble should let people feel easy about playing it whenever they feel like.

1- are people doing tournaments of this game? if so are there any vids?

UTD Zac is holding a pretty large tourney in September, and we are doing a massive regional event in the Midwest November 7th. Linkshot also held a very small tourney in his community recently.

You can find plenty of vids on Youtube by searching for BBrawl. Did you watch the showcase?

 

[GwJ]

Like B+, this will never take over as the standard for Brawl. It's also not the Final Build. It's mistakes like that that ruined what Brawl could've been. Check the OP of the preview thread with all new data. It's not B+.

goddam, ninja'd much?

 

[Thinkaman]

It's also not the Final Build. It's mistakes like that that ruined what Brawl could've been. Check the OP of the preview thread with all new data.

Huh? This is very much the first final BBrawl release. Updates are likely, once we have months of data with matchup analysis across the board by lots of players, but this is the real deal.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry guys, I mean't to say

BBrawl is brawl without the cheese factor.

 

[MK26]

I was so smart, refreshing the page before i posted my answers

And are you dead serious when you say that you believe every character in the game is between vWario and vROB? Not even a single deviation?

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

uhm...does the game crash when you use items? i know it does with the smash ball, but does it do the same with items? i', scared to try...jeje

 

[Thinkaman]

I was so smart, refreshing the page before i posted my answers

And are you dead serious when you say that you believe every character in the game is between vWario and vROB? Not even a single deviation?

vLucario, but yes. I spoiled before, I personally think Solo Zelda is the worst character in BBrawl by a slim margin. (It's a close call, but I'll go ahead and say it.) I think Solo Zelda in BBrawl is better than vLucario. (But not vKirby) I would rather enter a BBrawl tourney playing Solo Zelda than a vBrawl tourney playing Lucario.

EDIT: I want to clarify, I think the key here is that "worst" no longer has to mean bad by vBrawl standards.

uhm...does the game crash when you use items? i know it does with the smash ball, but does it do the same with items? i', scared to try...jeje

The only known crashes are Final Smashes with cinematic behavior, like Falcon. The Timer item is bugged half the time, but all other items should be totally and completely fine.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness aerial master mainly dealing damage with Fair's and Nair's. PK Fire is AMAZING in BBrawl too. Most of Ness attacks are lagless, albeit the bat and PK Flash too. Ness dash grab is quick and has good range too.

PK Fire would be amazing if it had half of either the startup or ending lag. It's a pretty telegraphed and commited move, making it situational at best and easily avoided.

Ness isn't "lagless". He isn't excessively laggy like Ganondorf, but he doesn't have anything that has extremely low ending lag. What I'm talking about is Ness doesn't have anything with low lag comparable to that of Mario's air game, G&W's Smashes, ZSS's ForwardB, Ness has nothing that has really low ending lag.

You clearly have no idea what your talking about and your pulling **** out of your arse.

Why don't you try paying attention to your own character instead. My point is that Ness has more commitment on stuff compared to most characters, and this is a bad thing combined with his relatively low range.

I can't do a side by side comparison but Ness is better than Lucas for the same reason Luigi is better than Mario.

Ness was better than Lucas in vBrawl. With Lucas's better spotdodge, he now has more moves that he can set up safely.

Clearly if you knew more about said characters you'd know that PKF buff is huge. Landing it is no more hard than landing most moves. It's TOTALLY worth in Brawl. The damage is does is good.

PK Fire is good against people who fail at powershielding or just jumping.

Until PK Fire's startup or ending lag is reduced, I'm not impressed by it. The chance of actually landing it is not very high compared to the risk factor when the opponent blocks it like they should.

Basically Ness is only improved when his opponent screws up and lands in gimmicky ****. This is also why I think Ganondorf is still terrible in BBrawl because he relies on his opponent landing in gimmicky **** before he can do anything.

 

[PKNintendo]

PK Fire would be amazing if it had half of either the startup or ending lag. It's a pretty telegraphed and commited move, making it situational at best and easily avoided.

It's well worth. Use it as a semi spacing tool, use it when someone whiffs, bottom line. PKF=doesn't suck in BBrawl.

Ness isn't "lagless". He isn't excessively laggy like Ganondorf, but he doesn't have anything that has extremely low ending lag. What I'm talking about is Ness doesn't have anything with low lag comparable to that of Mario's air game, G&W's Smashes, ZSS's ForwardB, Ness has nothing that has really low ending lag.

Um, sorry but have ever SEEN his aerials? They are nearly lagless as Mario's and others. His aerials all are incredibly fast (dair is the exception.) Ness Fsmash is ridiculously slow, but that's like telling a Mario main to use his down tilt in vBrawl.

Why don't you try paying attention to your own character instead. My point is that Ness has more commitment on stuff compared to most characters, and this is a bad thing combined with his relatively low range.[/qupte]

Don't tell me how to play MY character. Theorycraft all you want, but your wrong about most things you've stated with Ness. His tilts are more or less the same speed as the average Mario bro.

Ness was better than Lucas in vBrawl. With Lucas's better spotdodge, he now has more moves that he can set up safely.

I'm sorry but the spot dodge helps his ground game alot, but it doesn't suddenly make him better. Ness also got PKF reward being AMAZING. A free fsmash, grab (which is damaging to boot)

PK Fire is good against people who fail at powershielding or just jumping.

No. PK fire is decent option against all foes. It's shield stun is pathetic, but it can be used as a spacing tool/punishing too. It sounds like I'm saying it's amazing, but it's pretty decent. The rewards are TOTALLY worth it.

Until PK Fire's startup or ending lag is reduced, I'm not impressed by it. The chance of actually landing it is not very high compared to the risk factor when the opponent blocks it like they should.

It would simply make the move go from a decent option to a good option. I'm all in favor for that, but BBrawl isn't about changing things willy nilly. I'm fine with PKF.

Basically Ness is only improved when his opponent screws up and lands in gimmicky ****. This is also why I think Ganondorf is still terrible in BBrawl because he relies on his opponent landing in gimmicky **** before he can do anything

Lol. Ness isn't about PKF's and PK Flash and what not. He's an AERIAL character. Nothing GIMMICKY about it. PKF buff improved it's usage for me. It went from being useless to worthwhile.

I could say that Mario's flood gimping game is GIMMICKY. But in reality it really isn't.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Um, sorry but have ever SEEN his aerials? They are nearly lagless as Mario's and others. His aerials all are incredibly fast (dair is the exception.) Ness Fsmash is ridiculously slow, but that's like telling a Mario main to use his down tilt in vBrawl.

I'll just put it this way. Ness is horrible at aerial mixups. If he whiffs within range, he's screwed.

Ness's F-air is his only sorta fast aerial. It comes out fast, but you won't see too many mixups immediately after he does a F-air.

His B-air comes out kinda fast, but it has existent ending lag. Same goes for his U-air.

His D-air both comes out slowly, and has significant ending lag. Even the autocanceled version has quite a bit of lag time before he lands.

Don't tell me how to play MY character. Theorycraft all you want, but your wrong about most things you've stated with Ness. His tilts are more or less the same speed as the average Mario bro.

Yeah, his tilts have decent speed. They all have pathetic range though. His D-tilt would be a lot more useful if it actually had existent range.

The attacks that Ness does have that cover good range are all laggy. F-smash in specific. This attack sucks. It comes out slowly, has a horrible charge release, and has terrible ending lag. Mario's F-smash comes out faster, has greater range, and less ending lag.

I'm sorry but the spot dodge helps his ground game alot, but it doesn't suddenly make him better. Ness also got PKF reward being AMAZING. A free fsmash, grab (which is damaging to boot)

Good luck landing PK fire on a good player that doesn't get baited. It's at best a gimmicky setup due to its startup and ending lag.

Anyhow my whole point is that Ness doesn't have any super reliable or safe way to deal significant damage. He doesn't have all that good of mixup options either due to the commitment on several of his moves either.

It would simply make the move go from a decent option to a good option. I'm all in favor for that, but BBrawl isn't about changing things willy nilly. I'm fine with PKF.

I'm glad you're fine with PK Fire. It doesn't solve Ness's fundamental problems with commitment and range however.

Considering how much other characters have improved in this game, that's why I'm pretty certain Ness is worse off on the tier list.

I could say that Mario's flood gimping game is GIMMICKY. But in reality it really isn't.

FLUDD is a gimmick. Mario's reliable KOs with Up-smash, D-smash, and B-throw (all great out of shield options!) aren't, and neither is the mixup potential of his D-air.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'll just put it this way. Ness is horrible at aerial mixups. If he whiffs within range, he's screwed.

Ness's F-air is his only sorta fast aerial. It comes out fast, but you won't see too many mixups immediately after he does a F-air.

His B-air comes out kinda fast, but it has existent ending lag. Same goes for his U-air.

His D-air both comes out slowly, and has significant ending lag. Even the autocanceled version has quite a bit of lag time before he lands.

Um... no? Um Ness is FULL of aerial mixup. Fair to nair, fair to uair, uair to nair. Granted these aren't *combos* but aerial mixups.

Bair's lag isn't big enough to be punished. Mario's bair has more lag, yet I don't state that it can be whiffed.

Dair is one of the best spikes in the game. It not only spikes harder than Mario's fair, it's also faster and has less lag.

Yeah, his tilts have decent speed. They all have pathetic range though.

The attacks that Ness does have that cover good range are all laggy. F-smash in specific. This attack sucks. It comes out slowly, has a horrible charge release, and has terrible ending lag. Mario's F-smash comes out faster, has greater range, and less ending lag.

Um, sure. Ness tilts have lackluster range. Same can be applied to the Mario bros.
Fsmash is terrible I've said it before. Apparantly you can't read. LOL at you saying it has more range. LOL.


[qutoe]
Good luck landing PK fire on a good player that doesn't get baited. It's at best a gimmicky setup due to its startup and ending lag.[/quote]

Sorry, but how does a player land Gws smashes? Seriously, it's startup sucks, but it can still land on opponent. It's also a decent spacing too.

Anyhow my whole point is that Ness doesn't have any super reliable or safe way to deal significant damage. He doesn't have all that good of mixup options either due to the commitment on several of his moves either.

Keep telling yourself that.

I'm glad you're fine with PK Fire. It doesn't solve Ness's fundamental problems with commitment and range however.

Considering how much other characters have improved in this game, that's why I'm pretty certain Ness is worse off on the tier list.

Ness aerial's aren't a commitment. They come out fast and end fast enough to be done with.
Ness has range problem what else is new. At least he has other options.


I actually don't see the point in arguing with you. You've been undermining Ness since day 1. Either from bias or sheer ignorance. I won't even bother continuing since you'll pull more **** out of your ***.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

Balanced Brawl can be booted on any Wii, including Wiis without the Homebrew Channel! All you need is an SD Card (2 GB or smaller required), a Wii, and a copy of Brawl to play.
1. Place the files in the correct structure on the SD card.
2. Delete all custom stages from your Wii.
3. Boot up Brawl and go to the stage builder. Press A to "Launch Game" when prompted. Brawl should restart.
4. Remove the SD card and enjoy Balanced Brawl!

This needs to be emphasized! I hope this gets bigger than B+

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Brawl+ is obviously for Melee hardcore fans... BBrawl is for Brawl fans... it's really depending on which game you like better that determines on which game you play

 

[A2ZOMG]

Um... no? Um Ness is FULL of aerial mixup. Fair to nair, fair to uair, uair to nair. Granted these aren't *combos* but aerial mixups.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Ness is too committed on most of his attacks to easily mix up on an opponent with good reaction. His attacks have significant duration, which limits his ability to go from one move to another.

Bair's lag isn't big enough to be punished. Mario's bair has more lag, yet I don't state that it can be whiffed.

Completely false. I have frame data to prove it.

Mario B-air:
Hit: 6-~12
End: 33

Ness B-air:
Hits: 10
Ends: 49

Both attacks have the same landing lag, but the aerial lag difference is significant. Moreover, Mario's B-air comes out faster too and I'm pretty sure has more range.

Dair is one of the best spikes in the game. It not only spikes harder than Mario's fair, it's also faster and has less lag.

I wonder if I'm the only person who actually reads frame data frequently.

Ness D-air:
Hits: 20
Ends: 67
Landing lag: 28

Mario F-air:
Hits: 16
Ends: 59
Landing lag: 26

I don't have complete autocancel data, and Ness does have a more practical autocancel, but seriously, get your facts straight.

Um, sure. Ness tilts have lackluster range. Same can be applied to the Mario bros.
Fsmash is terrible I've said it before. Apparantly you can't read. LOL at you saying it has more range. LOL.

Mario's F-smash in fact does outrange Ike's F-smash. Don't believe me? Try spacing the reverse F-smash when you have spare time.

Sorry, but how does a player land Gws smashes? Seriously, it's startup sucks, but it can still land on opponent. It's also a decent spacing too.

G&W's Smashes have INFINITELY less commitment with super fast charge releases and virtually non-existent ending lag. Even if you block his smashes or if he whiffs them, they CANNOT be punished 99% of the time. That does not go for Ness's PK Fire unfortunately.

I'm sorry, I'm not merely trying to undermine Ness. I'm just afraid that my observational skills are better than yours.

 

[Linkshot]

Theorybrawl is lawl.

Put an end to this Ness VS Mario, please.

I main both in Low Tier vBrawl. They have different playstyles. That is that.

 

[PKNintendo]

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Ness is too committed on most of his attacks to easily mix up on an opponent with good reaction. His attacks have significant duration, which limits his ability to go from one move to another.

Completely false. I have frame data to prove it.

Mario B-air:
Hit: 6-~12
End: 33

Ness B-air:
Hits: 10
Ends: 49

Both attacks have the same landing lag, but the aerial lag difference is significant. Moreover, Mario's B-air comes out faster too and I'm pretty sure has more range.

I wonder if I'm the only person who actually reads frame data frequently.

Ness D-air:
Hits: 20
Ends: 67
Landing lag: 28

Mario F-air:
Hits: 16
Ends: 59
Landing lag: 26

I don't have complete autocancel data, and Ness does have a more practical autocancel, but seriously, get your facts straight.

Mario's F-smash in fact does outrange Ike's F-smash. Don't believe me? Try spacing the reverse F-smash when you have spare time.

G&W's Smashes have INFINITELY less commitment with super fast charge releases and virtually non-existent ending lag. Even if you block his smashes or if he whiffs them, they CANNOT be punished 99% of the time. That does not go for Ness's PK Fire unfortunately.

I'm sorry, I'm not merely trying to undermine Ness. I'm just afraid that my observational skills are better than yours.

Yeah, I know about the GW fmash being good. I didn't want to compare to Ness.
Ness bat is beyond bad, you miss read my post. Comparing to GW is lulzworthy.

At least PKF has the range.

BURN. You got me good on the Mario Bair thing.

You listed 2 of Ness aerials. He has 3 others remember? All o His Bair is only SLIGHTLY slower on startup and ends smidgen later. Not enough to be considered *COMMITTED*

Pretty sure AC Dair is faster but w/e. Not doing an aerial by aerial comparison.

You mean stutterstepping?
****, I was hoping you wouldn't play that. Again doesn't matter, Mario Fsmash>>>Ness'

I mainly started this argument when you stated that Ness aerial's need to be committed to use and doesn't have any mixup game. That is wrong.


PS: What happened to theory crafting Lucas huh?

 

[JOE!]

anybody still doing Wifi BBrawl? i wanna test some stuff out

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas is better than Ness for a simple reason. He has more moves he can land reliably. His mobility is better, and his spotdodge and ground options are better.

Ness only appears better if he can land PK fire a lot and always grab and kill his opponent at 120% with B-throw.

Overall, I think Lucas is more versatile, and generally makes you better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you're still around JOE!, I'll play you.

2191-7368-9411

 

[JOE!]

If you're still around JOE!, I'll play you.

2191-7368-9411

cool, ill add you in a sec.

<--Mine is in my info

 

[PKNintendo]

Lucas is better than Ness for a simple reason. He has more moves he can land reliably. His mobility is better, and his spotdodge and ground options are better.

Ness only appears better if he can land PK fire a lot and always grab and kill his opponent at 120% with B-throw.

Overall, I think Lucas is more versatile, and generally makes you better.

****it. Lucas has inferior matchups than Ness. Hes a jack of all trades that is neither proefficient in both air and ground.

Ness is a better character because his a greater aerial game than Lucas air/ground.

There is more to Ness than just pk fire and back throws.