Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ぱみゅ]

Each time a character respawns or is switched (PT, Z/S) is re-loaded.

You NEED the SD each time to having proper loading =P

 

[JOE!]

on a different note, wanna discuss bowser now?

Taking a note from *gasp* Broken brawl, would increasing the height gained from Aerial Fortress be too extreme for bowser?

 

[Linkshot]

I assume it would. The focus would be if Bowser's negative recovery is still holding him back too much, we buff his onstage game.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It would be too extreme as bowser doesn't really need that much help, IF ANY.

 

[The_Altrox]

I assume it would. The focus would be if Bowser's negative recovery is still holding him back too much, we buff his onstage game.

I guess that works for some characters. It worked for Olimar.
But they couldn't improve the fotress by a minor amount rather than something extreme?

 

[JOE!]

bwser allready has a great ground game, what truly screws him is that he has like, no vertical recovery

 

[Lokee]

Wait isnt DK's vertical recovery just as bad as Bowser yet no one's complained about him.

Also anyone got an idea if adding a grounding element to Ganon's Aerudo (similar to brawl-)be any advantage?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

im pretty sure dk's has less vertical height then bowser

 

[Mit]

Wait isnt DK's vertical recovery just as bad as Bowser yet no one's complained about him.

Also anyone got an idea if adding a grounding element to Ganon's Aerudo (similar to brawl-)be any advantage?

Both recoveries really aren't too bad. If you watch some videos of good Bowser mains, getting gimped due to their recovery does not happen often. They just have to be smart and play around it, just like Link/Olimar/other characters with poor recoveries.

Also, a grounding element on Aerudo (I'm guessing that means aerial side-B?) would be a tad broken. As of now, grounding elements seem to be reserved for moves that are pretty hard to land. Aerial side-B is not terribly difficult to land.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Both recoveries really aren't too bad. If you watch some videos of good Bowser mains, getting gimped due to their recovery does not happen often. They just have to be smart and play around it, just like Link/Olimar/other characters with poor recoveries.

But...how many good Bowser mains are there? =P

In high level play, I'd say Olimar in fact has a better recovery than Bowser's since he has more angles he can come from, and the whistle prevents him from being swatted back offstage easily. Link...is heavily dependent on him having good DI, but if he DIs well, his recovery is better. Bowser's recovery on the other hand always is vulnerable to being heavily punished against someone who knows the matchup.

And against someone who has an easy to land spike or gimp move, he really shouldn't make it back once he's offstage.

Donkey Kong's recovery is also bad, but his recover has more priority and duration, limiting what can be used to punish it.

Also, a grounding element on Aerudo (I'm guessing that means aerial side-B?) would be a tad broken. As of now, grounding elements seem to be reserved for moves that are pretty hard to land. Aerial side-B is not terribly difficult to land.

There is no way it would be broken. It is in fact a very difficult move to land, and it's MASSIVELY punishable.

If you're getting hit by it a lot, learn the matchup. In high level play, Ganondorf should almost never be landing Flame Choke at all. The aerial version in fact is slower and has less range than the grounded one I should point out.

 

[Lokee]

Broken? Perhaps, but this is Ganon.
I thought it would be a cool but useful method of keeping the enemy in place seeing as it can be short hopped really low to the ground then possibly let out a can of Whoop-A!!.

Plus Imagine being near the top blastline with the foe and then grabbing them and dragging their sorry face and bashing it into the cold rock below. Epic No?

DK and Bowser's weight usually keep them grounded so recovery may not be the issue to address with Bowser. If you look at DK he is a great example of his amazing on stage game while actually staying on it. So yeah.

However you have to watch even the simplest of low angle knockback moves cause it will mark an early grave especially with these two.

 

[A2ZOMG]

*sigh* no amount of shenanigans is going to fix Ganon unless it's a legit 0-death.

You have to actually give him tools first otherwise.

 

[Lokee]

*sigh* no amount of shenanigans is going to fix Ganon unless it's a legit 0-death.

You have to actually give him tools first otherwise.

What would you suggest? I mean really suggest?

 

[Mit]

There is no way it would be broken. It is in fact a very difficult move to land, and it's MASSIVELY punishable.

If you're getting hit by it a lot, learn the matchup. In high level play, Ganondorf should almost never be landing Flame Choke at all. The aerial version in fact is slower and has less range than the grounded one I should point out.

Eh, I suppose to me it's seemed not hard to land in situations when you can predict aerials. Again, highly dependent on mindgames and your opponent not knowing the matchup very well, but it's not something most people are expecting when facing Ganon, and their spacing (when coming down for a landing from being in the air) might not be anticipating the increased horizontal speed and distance Ganon has when using the move. I've just noticed that if I'm having trouble landing a side-B, I can change up my thinking and try to land an aerial side-B and it does work sometimes (although, I make sure I've got a pretty good chance of landing it, as it is indeed highly punishable).

Grounding elements just still seem a bit too extreme. To get his wizkick grounding you usually have to manage to land side-B then predict your opponent either standing up or rolling behind you, and can't land it if they roll away. Arguably harder than landing an aerial side-B. If aerial side-B had grounding elements, that'd be the only move you'd have to land, and after that, if you're opponent is at a decent damage, or worse, close to the edge of the stage, there's a high chance they're gonna die from it.

Although, if it's thought that Ganon needs more help in that department (one screwup = death from Ganon), I suppose it'd work. It'd also look **** cool. It just seems to me like there's more important things that could be changed about him than something like that.

 

[Lokee]

I think to fix Ganon we have to look at his weaknesses/ what he has problems in and find solutions to greatly ease the severity of these achilles' heels.

1) Pressure- Mainly due to sluggish nature and the lack of any extremely quick moves make constant pressure on Ganon very exhausting. His Abyssmal Grab and Poor out of shield options do not help either. Many have suggested a "true" jab for this. Starting and Ending more quickly then before

2) Approaching- Defenitely the worst of all. Ganon lacks the Mobility to close the distance between him and his foe (Unlike Falcon and Sonic) Also lack of a Projectile prevents forcing an approach. Whether be ground or air Ganon doesnt really have anything lacking enough lag intially to land on a target safely. Wizards Foot seemed to have been designed for this but it is a lag fest on shields and only has fair priority (Falcon has Nair coupled with jab/grabs) Some have suggest Lag cuts on Nair or Fair

3) Projectile- Many Characters suffer from this but Ganon suffers from this terribly also due to his mobility and lacking any kind of reflector or projectile himself resulting in a forced approach. Although it is not all bad thanx to Power Shielding+ Walking. Nothing has really been suggested to ease this but perhaps the same Jab Buff may help as it been known to cancel various projectiles.

4) Recovery- ***Has been remedied by making it all around dangerous when it lands on edgeguarders but still is very gimpable due to the clockwork predicibility and his poor jumps.

IMO We must target these aspects in orders to understand what Ganon truly needs to succeed. So think of things to address these issues

 

[ぱみゅ]

As I see, Ganon is the strongest in the game indeed, but he can't really use his strenghts because he has no way to.

If he tries by defending, his oponent can easily pressure him until they get an opening and punish him hard. This, plus his bad recovery doesn't help.

if he tries being aggressive, it's so easy to just defend his approach methods and attacks because they're VERY slow, and then, again, punish.

Finally, if the oponent character can shoot him any proyectile, he's now vulnerable in both ways: he'll be pressured and forced to attack, and we got a full sum of fails.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What would you suggest? I mean really suggest?

Fundamentally, Ganondorf lacks anything that can be consistently used to deal damage. He has no way to create an opening on defenses that isn't avoidable through conservative play. None of his moves are safe on block except for U-smash and autocanceled B-air, which are invalidated by their hitboxes. EVERYTHING Ganon does gets destroyed by spotdodge on reaction. To top it off, Ganondorf has no viable grabs. Intelligent use of shielding, poking, and spotdodging makes it almost possible to NOT GET HIT by Ganon at all (minus the fact we do occasionally make minor spacing and timing errors and sometimes do stupid things). Getting comboed and gimped easily at this point is just pitiful when his fundamental weaknesses are already beyond overkill.

There's a number of things that would help significantly. Super Armor on Flame Choke startup means Ganon would be allowed to counter pokes on reaction. Larger grab range generally has been assessed as undesirable for the scope of this project, but has OBVIOUS benefits. Most importantly, giving Ganon something that he can poke or approach with, such as a better Jab or N-air would probably do the best job of solving his problems.

Ganondorf is almost decent, except he simply lacks something that is required to be decent.

 

[JOE!]

back onto bowser:

DK's recovery not only has a bigger hitbox and damages more, it stops momentum allowing him to have more safety when using it, he also has better air speed.

Bowser's Up B is better on the ground, but is kinda poor compared to DK's when you take the above facts into play. Also keep in mind that DK is only lighter than Bowser, and not by *too* much, and we may have grounds for giving aerial fortress a bit more oomph.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

DK obviously has a better recovery than Bowser, but Bowser has suicide options that make his overall off-stage game interesting. If he lands a Flying Slam off-stage, odds are he can force the suicide kill (fun fact: on certain stages at certain times, Bowser can survive the "suicide"). Bowser also has Bowser Bomb which ledge-cancels and is generally a great option to have for high recoveries and escaping juggles. Regardless, I don't expect either character to be playing seriously deep off-stage games. When hit off-stage, both characters need to favor DI up in order to guarantee they are actually able to recover, and they have to pull "no nonsense" recoveries that are direct and to the point (anything else tends to be a suicide tactic, somewhat viable for Bowser but still very risky). They are fairly likely to get swatted a bit as they make it back, but neither has huge issues actually getting gimped outright (except against someone like Meta Knight who is legitimately really good at gimping). Their massive weight kinda off-sets this since it's hard to launch either deep off-stage in the first place, and they can more afford to get swatted a bit as they recover than other characters.

Think about what is bad about Bowser. Bowser has relatively few safe moves, Bowser has a mediocre recovery, Bowser has huge hurtboxes, and Bowser generally struggles in the projectile navigation department. That might sound bad, but then look at his strengths. Bowser is great at dealing damage, Bowser is great at scoring kills, Bowser is great OoS, and Bowser is the single heaviest character. In terms of range/disjointedness Bowser is probably just barely in the top half of the pack, not really a bad place to be. I think it's important to always look at weaknesses in light of strengths, and it's hard to deny that the sort of strengths Bowser has in Balanced Brawl are very solid and reliable kinds of strengths while some of his weaknesses are rather flimsy (sure he may have some projectile issues, but how much do personal issues tend to get mixed into that?). I mean, just think of the questions from both sides here:

Q. How do I get around Bowser's weakness of not being very safe (probably his biggest weakness)?

A. Rely on his excellent command grab and what safe pokes you have, use deception (combine with klawhopping to make your mobility a problem for the enemy), bait and punish, exploit the high shield damage of your moves in combination with the excellent shieldstabbing of dair, and feel free to sit on leads in some matchups and rely a lot on Whirling Fortress OoS.

That sounds like a pretty reasonable gameplan if you feel like you need to improve your management of safety issues. Of course, you can always work to define the game on other terms, but if you can't avoid safety being one of the big factors in the game, you are not short on options.

Q. How do I get around the fact that Bowser's moves just do so much damage and knockback compared to mine?

A. Don't get hit.

Of course, as any smasher knows, that's the best plan ever, but good luck with it.

---

As per Ganondorf, let me try putting things this way. There is a theory being laid out here about how Ganondorf is unable to succeed. This suggests that, when competent players play, it should generally be a blowout if one side is Ganondorf and the other side is not. The problem is that it's months after the release, and I'm not seeing these blowouts. Among Thinkaman's crew, Ganondorf is a very popular character. Both Thinkaman and Twilight Prince play Bbrawl and use Ganondorf a ton and do legitimately well. When I play Bbrawl in Kansas City, I sometimes use Ganondorf myself. I usually don't do well, but unless I'm playing Fino who uses Olimar and Ice Climbers who are really gimmicky and require some really special matchup knowledge to efficiently fight that I really only have with Mr. Game & Watch, it isn't a blow-out. I usually lose on last stock with Ganon. WiFi doesn't mean too much, but I have played multiple different Ganons on it from different regions with good connections. I generally won more than I lost using Mr. Game & Watch, but the matches were not even close to blowouts and I was consistently scared of the stuff Ganon could do and was landing.

Here is the question. Where are the blowouts? When I play either side of Ganondorf's matchups against assorted opponets, blowouts are rare. When Thinkaman does likewise, it's the same. I watched a little bit of play involving Ganon that didn't involve either of us (steeler's PT versus TP's Ganon), and it was decently close. I haven't seen these blowout matches happening otherwise; even when Ganon loses, everything I've seen suggests to me that he loses by fairly small margins (usually on last stock) like everyone else.

This is classic science. A hypothesis is proposed. We look at the evidence. The evidence directly contradicts it. You don't even have to buy into my theoretical explanations for why Ganondorf is a capable character. You can only look at the fact that the evidence is very clear that no matter how Ganon actually is (including the possibility of him being the worst character), he can generally land quite a large number of hits during a match. Somehow the theory has to account for that fact, and the theory presented that concludes Ganon needs more safe options does not account for it which is why I simply don't trust it at all.

I also want to say something about grabs. Watch literally any high level match, matchup doesn't matter. Count the grabs. You will be very hard pressed to find any in which either side has a "zero" total. Grabs are very practical for every character to land on every other character. Just watching games makes it obvious; everyone gets grabbed (which is why Ice Climbers don't have any unwinnable matchups in standard Brawl!). Ganon could trade his grab with Zelda or Zero Suit Samus, and he'd still be able to land it. Obviously characters with excellent grabs land them more, but no one in this game has grabs so bad that they can't be landed. That's just not how the game works, and just looking at it being played makes it very clear.

I've gotten into it many times, but here's my very simple explanation of how Ganon works. At any moment, if you predict Ganon correctly, Ganon will get punished. If Ganon wins the prediction war and predicts you, he has opportunity to hit you. Ganon's overall reward for hitting is the highest of the cast by a decent margin. Ganon has a path to victory. What you say about avoiding Ganon's stuff being avoidable on reaction would, if true, indeed shut down my theory. However, it would also mean that Ganon should generally lose horribly on a fairly consistent basis, and it just doesn't happen. Something is wrong here, and given that human reaction is if nothing else easily agreeable as roughly constant across players of all skill levels, I think it's safe to say that sitting there and just avoiding everything Ganon does on reaction doesn't work. If it did, the matches that happen involving Ganon just wouldn't go the way they do at all.

You do have the avenue of suggesting that one or both players in all matches that have occurred involving Ganon suck so horribly that they don't even consider trying to avoid Ganon's moves on reaction (arguing that weak players aren't capable goes against basic biology; I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume you wouldn't suggest that). I can say personally I did try just hanging back and responding to what he did. I know a lot of these other players, and they all have the simple sense to try reactive camping against Ganondorf. Regardless of how effective it is, it is really an obvious thing to try. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest the people in these matches didn't try this sort of thing. I can give you the extra info that just staying put and blocking or spotdodging all his stuff on reaction doesn't work very well because the risk-reward on what ultimately requires some prediction is not very good for the defender, and that the best strategy against Ganondorf for most of the cast seems to be a more DMG-styled run-away while mixing in lots of projectiles and keep-away tactics for the characters that have them, really focusing on exploiting Ganon's low mobility to prevent him from getting near you moreso than punishing the safety of his attacks (which was actually what we expected when designing him, just FYI). The very few blowouts I've seen involving Ganon (all of them being Ganon vs Olimar) were not cases of Ganon failing to attack safely; they were cases of Ganon never being able to get "in". That's pretty rare though; usually Ganon catches people often enough and then gets Ganon-sized rewards to keep things interesting. It doesn't really seem degenerate or skewed to me.

Thus the question for people who want to discuss Ganon further is this. If Ganon's inability to attack safely is hopelessly crippling, why are most games involving Ganon close? How does Ganon land so many hits? Do you have competing evidence that shows flaws in the current evidence (that meaning, do you have local play involving quality Ganon players playing Bbrawl [playing standard Brawl and extrapolating does not count] that is demonstrative of competing styles that you wish to argue are somehow superior)? In terms of what Ganon "needs to succeed", I know I've seen him succeed before so somehow that has to be explained away if we are to start from a presumption of him not having the core of what he needs already.

 

[Mit]

I think A2ZOMG just doesn't trust the level of the matches AA is seeing played. It really works for both sides. A2ZOMG says all the matches he's seen has involved Ganon being terrible. AA argues that all the matches he's seen have been perfectly fine and Ganon has been able to succeed. I think both sides could benefit from some videos and thorough analysis of the videos

I myself am still unsure if matches between equally skilled Ganon and Olimar mains would really be close to an even matchup. The camping ability of a high-level Olimar main can be difficult for a large amount of the roster to get through, but it's likely hardest for Ganondorf.

I do think he could use a little bit more, although not too much. I am in favor of his jab having a little bit less landing lag for the same reasons A2ZOMG has stated, although I think that in itself would be a great help and that he might not need much more. That would help him get out of bad situations, and likewise help him throw in some more approaches that he knows aren't quite as risky anymore.

Plus, if it turns out to be a tremendous help for him, I can't see anyone thinking it'd be too good and that Ganon would need to be nerfed because of it. I think it's okay to throw another small buff or two his way. If anything it'll atleast make him an even more attractive character, and in the end, if through the increased play and feedback he is determined to be a bit too good, he can have a nerf thrown his way.

 

[CarVac]

Even if Ganon has no blowout losses, in order to balance the character, shouldn't we make sure that he has some good matchups? What good matchups does he have? We want evenly balanced difficult and easy characters to play against, but so far, all of the arguments are that "Ganon sucks" or "Ganon has no blowout losses."
Where are his easier wins? Do we want them, or is it okay to say "He's at least viable"?

Is it just that Ganon requires more skill (as in reading and prediction, not technical skill) to play effectively than other characters?

 

[Linkshot]

The Ganon:Olimar matchup would be far more easily solved if Pikmin Tether wasn't transcendant, and also didn't grant invincibility to the Pikmin. @.@

We'd just buff Aerial Wizard to the point it kills all the Pikmin that touch it XD Except Purples!

 

[CarVac]

Do you mean grounded Pikmin tether? That could be an option, but there is NO WAY that aerial Pikmin Tether shouldn't be transcendant.

 

[Death Arcana]

whats the point of this if there is brawl+ which is wayyyyy better believe me ive tried both

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For people who like brawl, but want it more balanced. Just because you like Brawl+ more doesn't make it objectively better.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

whats the point of this if there is brawl+ which is wayyyyy better believe me ive tried both

Obvious troll is obvious

 

[Isatis]

whats the point of this if there is brawl+ which is wayyyyy better believe me ive tried both

That's fine, you have opinions, but please keep them to yourself or elsewhere instead of the discussion topic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even if Ganon has no blowout losses, in order to balance the character, shouldn't we make sure that he has some good matchups? What good matchups does he have? We want evenly balanced difficult and easy characters to play against, but so far, all of the arguments are that "Ganon sucks" or "Ganon has no blowout losses."
Where are his easier wins? Do we want them, or is it okay to say "He's at least viable"?

Is it just that Ganon requires more skill (as in reading and prediction, not technical skill) to play effectively than other characters?

Exactly, Ganon in fact doesn't have a single favorable matchup from my analysis.

He can go neutral-ish with people like Ike, Bowser, and Luigi, but that isn't saying much. Then he loses more than 7/3 to Samus, Olimar, G&W, Lucario, Marth, and Metaknight (this isn't necessarily a complete list, these are just blatantly obvious problems). All these matchups have one thing in common. Ganondorf cannot approach these characters at all and they easily poke him to oblivion and gimp him.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So me and A2 have been talking. We've figured that Lucas doesn't really need a kill buff, but needs a good set-up buff. Lucas lost one of his most important set-up buffs which was his d-air that was near gaurnteed, now he has to rely on luck and a lack of PS to score a KO off of that. That's all nice and well, but it's nearly not enough to compensate.

So after extensive thought, we thought that since he has a good n-air for poking and is still good and easier to land at higher percents when the opponet is trying their best to avoid f-smash and f-tilt and pivot grab, that making the final hit having low growth and moderate to low base KB would set the opponet up above him. This could then lead into a moderately buffed u-air (preferably killing at 140-150 on mid-heavies *Snake * from the ground. It wouldn't change his game much. It's much like the n-air buff to Sonic. I'd approve this buff alot and it wouldn't be too dramatic.

 

[TP]

Then he loses more than 7/3 to Samus, Olimar, G&W, Lucario, Marth, and Metaknight.

Samus-Ganon is clearly in Samus' favor. It may be the single least balanced matchup in the game.

Olimar is also not in Ganon's favor. Ganon has a very hard time getting in. However, a well timed wizkick opens up lots of options. It's not 7/3, though it may be close to it.

G&W is not bad at all. AA beat me the majority of the time we played, but that's because he's a better player than me and it was in friendlies (I didn't sandbag, but I can't react quickly when I'm playing friendlies at all). Since I took some games off him, the matchup is probably about even, which makes sense. G&W literally can't cover above and next to him at the same time. All I have to do is go for the angle he isn't protecting at the time.

Lucario... I don't even know why he is on this list. How does he avoid getting hit by Dtilts? It's not like his Fsmash will be the miracle cure to every instance where he is on the ground. It's a close matchup.

Marth can't outrange Ganon, and outranging the opponent is Marth's primary strength. Dash dancing, or just standing next to Marth with a mean look on your face, can screw up his ability to react to any move. Openings WILL occur, and Ganon can get Marth offstage at such a low percent that I can't see this matchup being bad at all.

Ganon-MK is even. I NEVER get gimped by MK, you shouldn't either. Just keep your back to the center of the stage, don't get grabbed, and Dtilt every chance you get.

I don't think Ganon needs any new buffs in BBrawl, except for Dsmash, since it is only ever used against Olimar anyway. Just give Samus a slower bounce off a flame choke so Dtilt is guaranteed, make Olimar pay dearly for getting choke>Dsmashed, and it's all good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar is also not in Ganon's favor. Ganon has a very hard time getting in. However, a well timed wizkick opens up lots of options. It's not 7/3, though it may be close to it.

And what options do you get from landing a wizkick? In the best case scenario, you might knock him offstage, but if he DIs well and uses Whistle armor, it's hard to gimp him consistently. You can do nothing to him when he waits, shields, and spotdodges on reaction. No matter how well you space, you will get grabbed if you hit his shield, and he can grab you out of anything for that matter.

G&W is not bad at all. AA beat me the majority of the time we played, but that's because he's a better player than me and it was in friendlies (I didn't sandbag, but I can't react quickly when I'm playing friendlies at all). Since I took some games off him, the matchup is probably about even, which makes sense. G&W literally can't cover above and next to him at the same time. All I have to do is go for the angle he isn't protecting at the time.

AA sucks at the matchup and does it wrong. Ganon can do nothing when G&W spams fullhop F-airs, and N-air also happens to hit that angle too. F-air ***** Ganon's *** all the time. He can't punish it very feasibly at all, it gets you offstage, and it gimps.

Lucario... I don't even know why he is on this list. How does he avoid getting hit by Dtilts? It's not like his Fsmash will be the miracle cure to every instance where he is on the ground. It's a close matchup.

His Aura Sphere camping is super safe, his aerials outprioritize EVERYTHING you do, and his roll/spotdodge are extremely gay for Ganon to deal with. No reliable Flame Choke followups at this point is overkill. You can't land a kill move on him feasibly either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv3PNCPF6js <- That video is vBrawl...of one of Japan's best Ganon players. The Lucario makes some pretty silly mistakes trying to get fancy, but for large portions of the match, Ganon literally is UNABLE TO LAND HITS AT ALL.

Marth can't outrange Ganon, and outranging the opponent is Marth's primary strength. Dash dancing, or just standing next to Marth with a mean look on your face, can screw up his ability to react to any move. Openings WILL occur, and Ganon can get Marth offstage at such a low percent that I can't see this matchup being bad at all.

You must be playing REALLY sucky Marth players. Marth can Up-B anything Ganon does, DB > Ganon's spacing game. N-air and F-air are almost impossible for Ganon to work around without powershielding.

Ganon-MK is even. I NEVER get gimped by MK, you shouldn't either. Just keep your back to the center of the stage, don't get grabbed, and Dtilt every chance you get.

Play better Metaknights who F-tilt, D-tilt, and F-air poke you and actually know timing.

Your opposition clearly sucks.

 

[uhmuzing]

I was going down the changes list, and I noticed that Fox is hardly altered at all. He's not exactly high tier, so why did he not get any buffs? :/

Also, about where do CF and Jiggs stand in the BBrawl metagame? Just curious.

 

[Lokee]

I was going down the changes list, and I noticed that Fox is hardly altered at all. He's not exactly high tier, so why did he not get any buffs? :/

Also, about where do CF and Jiggs stand in the BBrawl metagame? Just curious.

The designers fiqured that Fox didnt need that much at all cause he is only low on the list cause he was gayed by chaingrabs and infinities similar to Wolf.

In a lot of people's opinion Falcon is at a good place. Before he lacked a good reward on hit so they gave him alot of buffs (try out the new Killer upB YESZ) he also got a slight ajustment on followups, so overall a good place.

I couldnt say about Jiggs but I trust that she is good as well since one of the main designers Thinkaman mains her.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Saying the people who are playing suck without showing people who don't suck is why ultimately you're not being listened to on Ganondorf. I will explain why your G&W analysis doesn't work though...

Full hop fair is decent and such, but it has fairly narrow timing windows to avoid the landing lag (which Ganon trivially punishes with Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot; you just can't let that landing lag happen). The thing is that makes the timing predictable, and the move's hitboxes are disabled on block or hit for the victim. Ganon can just kinda walk toward you if you get spammy with this, time the predictable powershield (which turns into a normal block if you time it late, and then he punishes the landing lag), and then land one of several things. Theoretically the most damaging would be his Dark Dive grab, but he has options here. There are some other ways Ganon can deal with full hop fair, but that answer is just too obvious. Another obvious answer is to just fight for space with Ganon. Let's say I am zoning him with full hop fairs. Ganon just walks forward a bit every time he gets an opening, and you can either start attacking his shield (which opens the door to counterplay for him) or back up. You can't back up forever.

Also, in general, no character can create truly perfect pressure in Brawl. Meta Knight can harass Ganon with things like ftilt sure, but there is no unstoppable wall of ftilts because there's no unstoppable wall of anything. It can be tricky for Ganon to find the holes, but Ganon gets more rewarded than everyone if he does. I mean, if Meta Knight is using these attacks, he's not shielding and can't play reactively since he has to deal with the commitment of his attacks (contrary to some elements of the peanut gallery, it's non-trivial, hence he doesn't beat everyone 80-20 or worse). If he's not using them, then Ganon is getting in and further it's not like pure reaction relies much on skill anyway. You really can't have this both ways. Either you play a reactive defense against Ganon, or you zone him with safe options. Doing both at once is not possible. I maintain that neither strategy (nor the run-away style tactics that many characters can employ) is actually impossible for Ganon to handle.

---

Fox is a character with a lot to consider. Both Thinkaman and I have seen Zeton in action, and we know all the crazy stuff Fox is capable of (and it's a lot). We also are aware of how Fox is perceived in Japan (as a solid, high tier character). With the chaingrabs and assorted other abuses gone against Fox, it seems plausible that Fox is suddenly a whole lot better. We're not completely sure how it has worked out since Fox hasn't exactly seen much use, but he shouldn't be too far from where he needs to be.

I'll leave other people to say what they've seen about Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff, but I can say "much better" pretty easily.

 

[Mit]

Captain Falcon's much better, clearly.

The only thing I want more out of him is a dtilt with less ending lag, which I know probably won't happen. If it had less ending lag, however, it could be put to use similarly to how Sonic's is put to use. It would also be much safer on whiff. Due to its lack of safety and typically pointless setup, I don't see it used very much, and don't use it very much myself. Right now, even if you make contact, your opponent is almost back on the ground before you can even stand up and do anything about it (except at higher percents, obviously). You're still safe if you land it, but not much ever comes from it.

If it had less landing lag, and perhaps a weaker reward, it could be used like Sonic's dtilt to space and poke his opponents and actually do something against characters with good range and disjoint, as that remains a strong weakness for both characters.


Most probably won't see the use and I doubt he'll get any substantial buffs in the next version. I still think he needs it, as many matchups still feel like an uphill battle. At times against particularly defensive opponents it feels just as bad as playing Ganondorf, only your reward is far less than his. But if arguments can be made that Ganon is generally balanced as he is now, there's no way with all of Falcon's speed and his pro jab that he'd get a good buff I'm sure


But yeah, my suggestion is dtilt, and perhaps figuring out a way to make aerial raptor boost's ending lag far less than what it is now. You can still get punished for landing the move closer to the ground even if you don't go into freefall after making contact with it. The most use I've gotten out of it is split-second airdodges for avoiding said punishments if I actually have the time. Otherwise there isn't much point in using it still aside from silly raptor boost > raptor boost chains that work about 2 times before your opponent never lets it happen again.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Full hop fair is decent and such, but it has fairly narrow timing windows to avoid the landing lag (which Ganon trivially punishes with Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot; you just can't let that landing lag happen). The thing is that makes the timing predictable, and the move's hitboxes are disabled on block or hit for the victim. Ganon can just kinda walk toward you if you get spammy with this, time the predictable powershield (which turns into a normal block if you time it late, and then he punishes the landing lag), and then land one of several things. Theoretically the most damaging would be his Dark Dive grab, but he has options here. There are some other ways Ganon can deal with full hop fair, but that answer is just too obvious. Another obvious answer is to just fight for space with Ganon. Let's say I am zoning him with full hop fairs. Ganon just walks forward a bit every time he gets an opening, and you can either start attacking his shield (which opens the door to counterplay for him) or back up. You can't back up forever.

If Ganon blocks it, he can't punish it. Even if he powershields it, all he can do is U-air at best and that might even fail depending on how it was spaced. If Ganon is outside the range, he can do nothing to challenge it reliably. GANON is the one who should be backing up due to this zoning. F-air ALONG with G&W's other options means there is nothing Ganon can do to close ground that won't get severely punished.

Also, wtf are you talking about landing lag? There is NO LANDING LAG for doing fullhop F-airs. You can do two F-airs in a fullhop furthermore. PLEASE tell me how Ganon is supposed to punish the massive shield pushback of that attack. Besides, are you reeeeealy trying to tell me this is hard to do? If I'm doing this, it's easy to do. My technical skill is complete trash. It's just buffering F-airs from jumps. Very easy to do, and very effective.

I have a number of really old videos on my channel of this matchup, but I started implementing F-air a lot in those matches and it works wonders.

It's not just amazing against Ganondorf. I've implemented this in a lot of matchups.

And while it's true that no character can make unstoppable walls, Ganondorf actually lacks anything that can break walls consistently. Watch that vs Lucario match I posted. If that Lucario didn't try to get so fancy in certain moments, he could have easily 2stocked that Ganon at minimum. Several stretches of that match consist of Ganon NOT LANDING ANY HITS AT ALL.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you hit the ground during the execution of fair, you have massive landing lag as Mr. Game & Watch. Therefore, you have to time your fair in your full hop to finish completely before you land. I know you have some respect for frame data so let's whip some out.

Here is the frame data on Mr. Game & Watch's fair:

Frame Breakdown:
• 1-9 Startup
• 10-12 Strong hitbox out
• 13-32 Weak hitbox out
• 33-44 Aerial cooldown
*The strong hitbox and the weak hitbox are flagged together; hitting or having one blocked disables the other for that victim*

Landing lag: 22
Shield stun strong hitbox (when fresh): 5
Shield stun weak hitbox: 1

Do note that the shield stun from that strong hitbox drops if fair is stale so the victim here may have an extra few frames depending on context.

On flat ground with no fastfalling or aerial use, Mr. Game & Watch spends 58 frames in the air out of a full hop. If he wants to do a lagless fair, he has to execute it within the first 14 frames of his full hop. If he tries to double fair, he has only 4 extra frames to ensure that the second one gets its hitbox out at all before he lands with it, and the second one is absolutely sure to enjoy that wonderful 22 frames of landing lag (with no landing hitbox to help it like bair and dair have, both of which also have far less landing lag). None of Mr. Game & Watch's aerials autocancel after the hitboxes come out (though nair and bair at least definitely do before the hitboxes come out, which is only useful for deception and grabbing banana peels) so don't bother concerning yourself with that possibility.

I'll let you run the numbers on how much frame disadvantage G&W has when this is blocked (a lot of variables), but it's sure to be in the double digits no matter what and if Ganon manages to shield the first frame of the move it's a staggering -29.

Unless you are perfectly hitting Ganon's shield with the very last frames of fair (which Ganon will not let happen and would be really hard to set up without double jumps against even a Ganon in a neutral position), he can pretty easily land Dark Dive OoS which hits on f14. For that matter, jump OoS -> nair also hits on f14. If Ganon shields a remotely early part of fair (any of the hit frames from 10-18), do note that he's looking at more like +21 or more frame advantage. At +21, Ganon honestly has enough time to jump -> fair to punish you for fairing his shield (this is before considering that G&W doesn't have any f1 aerial defensive options; factoring in that G&W's airdodge doesn't go invincible until f3 and is his fastest defensive option, Ganon actually only needs +19 against an aerial G&W to land fair OoS). Ganon's fair has massive range so don't think you're outspacing that.

Any strategy involving the landing lag has to consider that you are looking at best at -17 (that's hitting with the strong hitbox and landing the very next frame). Assuming Ganon doesn't let you hit the frame before you land (trivially easy spacing), it's also probably at least -20, and Ganon is now trying to punish someone on the ground. Flame Choke hits on f16, and dropping the shield takes 6 frames so he needs +22 to land that OoS (given how tall Ganondorf is, he has a lot of options to shield stuff way before you land with it). If you don't hit his shield and land, he obviously has enough time. Note that Wizard's Foot has the same frame data as Flame Choke here. If Ganon needs something speedier, dtilt hits on f10 so he needs at least +16 to hit with it OoS... which he is guaranteed. Yes, if you hit Ganon's shield with fair and then land before the execution of fair finishes, you are pretty much guaranteed to get hit by dtilt if Ganon chooses to go for it which trips you since you're on the ground, and then Ganon can tech chase against G&W's wonderfully poor "get up from trip" roll. I considered all this stuff obviously inviable for G&W from the start, but if you wanted to consider it, here's the mathematical reason why you shouldn't.

If Ganon powershields, he has no shield drop lag and no shield hitstun. So if he powershields the first frame of Mr. Game & Watch's fair, Ganondorf is looking at a massive +34. Even jump -> aerial Flame Choke (a pretty slow option) only takes 26 frames. Ganon could also use this to take up to 13 frames walking forward to improve his spacing and then land fsmash (hits on f21). In fact, the only moves Ganon won't have time to punish with are utilt and Warlock Punch (both of which have over a second of start-up before the first damaging hitbox, hilarious moves). I would be pretty terrified to have my fair powershielded by Ganondorf given that he's honestly looking at a viable chance to punish with fsmash. I'm sure you're aware of how low fsmash kills Mr. Game & Watch and how much raw damage it does even if it doesn't kill.

Fair is nowhere near safe on block; just look at these ridiculous numbers in terms of frame advantage. If you went with bair on G&W he'd have a better shot (though Ganon still has openings), but you went with fair. I kinda knew fair wasn't a very safe move, but hopefully this should close the case with what I feel is a rigorous frame analysis of the situation.

 

[The Cape]

I must say that initially I didnt like the idea of Balanced Brawl.

However Umbreon Mow had me play it recently and it is a great improvement over Brawl. I must give my props to the creators. Now if I didnt hate Brawl's mechanics, then we would be talking.

>.>

 

[Alphatron]

^Same. That and the fact that a I can't get anyone I know to play it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We are going to be seriously discussing marketing this very soon. We have neglected that "aspect" of success too much.

Anyway, here are some things I've been thinking about.

How much have people been using Mario's dtilt? It should be pretty decent now (infinitely better than it was before). I'm thinking about tweaks to this move in the next release, maybe a little less KBG so it's not so awkard/bad against floaties (though I'll be careful in terms of making it too good against guys like Fox too).

I had nearly forgotten this, but Ike's forward and back throws are no longer code-wise linked via PSA. That means we can edit them separately, and I was thinking about making his bthrow more similar to his old Brawl bthrow if not just removing changes from it entirely (unless people think the "infinite" it gives Ike in narrow areas with walls on both sides is a problem. The only places this is possible are on the rock form of Pokemon Stadium and one single place late in Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (also a few places in the beginning of Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2, if anyone cares), and in both cases I feel like it is just so obviously a bad idea to jump in after Ike (even if the infinite doesn't exist) that it probably doesn't matter very much. It would also serve to make his fthrow and bthrow more functionally independent which could be cool.