Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Jinxkatrina8]

So... How was Jigglypuff improved?

All I'm seeing are very small changes to knockback and damage, compared to some major, major buffs that *much higher* tier characters got >_>

Glad to see Ivysaur no longer'll be the "lame" Pokemon :D I've always thought there was potential in that little... Dinosaur... Thing...

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Chef is *easily* better than Razor Leaf, which really brings to light just how bad Razor Leaf is (I'm not implying chef is bad, it's a great move, better than any of the projectiles steeler listed).

A damage buff is all that it would need, imo. It has cool little properties like being able to go through Castle Siege statues and other obstacles no sweat, so just making it something that is more rewarding is probably a simple, yet effective, tweak. Changing other properties sounds iffy, but playtesting could reveal the other changes to be worthwhile because of added depth.

 

[Hyrus]

I think someone asked about Mario's Dtilt a ways back. And since no one else is has spoke up... Dtilt is a pretty slow move (vbrawl frame data). The new kb angle is nicer, but there's just no outstanding qualities to the move that warrant its use over any other. Though, Mario is a pretty solid character who'd be hard pressed to find a use for a more powerful Dtilt.

Also, are there any considerations to tweaking shields? Probably not, but throwin' that out there .

 

[Lokee]

I think someone asked about Mario's Dtilt a ways back. And since no one else is has spoke up... Dtilt is a pretty slow move (vbrawl frame data). The new kb angle is nicer, but there's just no outstanding qualities to the move that warrant its use over any other. Though, Mario is a pretty solid character who'd be hard pressed to find a use for a more powerful Dtilt.

Also, are there any considerations to tweaking shields? Probably not, but throwin' that out there .

The idea was not to make Mario's Dtilt OMG awsome but basically not AS horrible as it was before. BBrawl is most likely not going to make trash moves all the sudden amazing(only when it calls for it) but more on the lines of decent, similar to Ganon's Uptilt buff. Anyway Mario is already AMAZINGLY good maybe enough to warrent some slight KB nerfs.

Jigglypuff I think she is good (dont forget a Jigglypuff main is one of the executives of this project) but personally I dont think she will ever escape that prejudice she has always faced in the Smash Bros. World.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So... How was Jigglypuff improved?

All I'm seeing are very small changes to knockback and damage, compared to some major, major buffs that *much higher* tier characters got >_>

Glad to see Ivysaur no longer'll be the "lame" Pokemon :D I've always thought there was potential in that little... Dinosaur... Thing...

Firstoff, Jigglypuff was never actually bad.

More damaging combos, MUCH better Dash attack/D-smash, a better gimp from N-air, she's solid when you combine that with an excellent zoning game and ability to stall the timer.

Although I agree she is not top 10 material.

As for Mario's D-tilt, honestly, I think it's less useful in BBrawl. It has too much knockback to set up very reliably. In vBrawl, you could use it as a setup at really high percents BECAUSE it had extremely low knockback.

Although I will point out that Jab Jab D-tilt is a decent combo.

 

[Steeler]

my bad lokee, i read that as vine whip sweetspot, not sourspot. either way, i don't think it is necessary with the recovery buff.

the razor leaf properties only mean something in the snake and dedede matchups, which are ironically two of PT's worst matchups, mainly because squirtle goes even at best and the other two struggle to overcome the very defensive playstyles those characters can pull off. even then, snake and dedede don't need to spam grenades/waddles to beat ivysaur.

just because there is a sandbag or siege statue or mansion column in the way doesn't mean the projectile is any faster, safer, or stronger. going through those kinds of structures is a footnote, at best.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Firstoff, Jigglypuff was never actually bad.

More damaging combos, MUCH better Dash attack/D-smash, a better gimp from N-air, she's solid when you combine that with an excellent zoning game and ability to stall the timer.

Although I agree she is not top 10 material.

First off, Jigglypuff is definitely not "good", we all know her major flaws... Tiers may be for queers, but there's still quite a few valid reasons she's 34/37...

Even with a few improved ground attacks, her ground game still doesn't look that great, and looking at some of the other characters, her air game may well lose it's awesomeness.

Personally I'd love to see an increase in priority and slightly more beef all around, although I will admit I've only seen the "balanced" Puff in action once. I'd really just like to know how much her improvements are actually going to *improve* her, especially against all of the other "balanced" characters.

If anybody could post some links to balanced puff gameplay, it'd be much appreciated

 

[Mr. Escalator]

She's okay in BBrawl. A2ZOMG is right that she wasn't really "bad" in vBrawl, and I think you are really underestimating the buffs she got.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Like I said, I'd love to actually see some of her buffs in action. All I can go off of is the very little I've seen, and the information here.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fair kills a little earlier
Nair now actually gimps
Bair WoP is a little more devastating
Dash Attack buff on Jiggs is VERY significant

Being Thinkaman a Jigglipuff main, he may though she doesn't needed a lot of improvement, and she doesn't.
She was already decent, and even if her survavility is not her best weapon, she's a character to have fun with, you can play her randomly moving in the air, and performing any random attack. Now, that works a little better.

And her tier spot is just because not too much people used her in tournaments, but if you use her properly, she's a scarry beast.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Not sure If this is the right thread to ask, but I tried the SD Card (Non Homebrew Channel) Method to try some BBrawl (And music/stage hacks) and all it ended up doing when going to stage builder was giving me a gigantic beeping noise and having no way to turn it off outside of taking the cables out. So stuck on steps 1 and 3. Help?

(Wow I suck at homebrew/hacking/whatever)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not sure If this is the right thread to ask, but I tried the SD Card (Non Homebrew Channel) Method to try some BBrawl (And music/stage hacks) and all it ended up doing when going to stage builder was giving me a gigantic beeping noise and having no way to turn it off outside of taking the cables out. So stuck on steps 1 and 3. Help?

(Wow I suck at homebrew/hacking/whatever)

Did you delete all your custom stages beforehand? If you have any custom stage still on the Wii (including ones from Smash Service or the ones that came with Brawl), it will lock up when you enter the stage builder.

Jigglypuff should not be 34/37 in standard Brawl. She should be low, but I think most people these days realize that she belongs a few places higher than that.

That said, her buffs have been pretty helpful though personally I'm not too sure exactly where she falls. If I had to guess I'd say she's in the bottom half of the cast in BBrawl and more likely to get a buff than a nerf in the next update, but she's definitely viable as she stands. Thinkaman could go on at length about her though; I can't really go very far into her situation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

First off, Jigglypuff is definitely not "good", we all know her major flaws... Tiers may be for queers, but there's still quite a few valid reasons she's 34/37...

This is frankly why the Jigglypuff boards are BY FAR the dumbest boards on SWF. Seriously...this pisses me off to no end.

Jigglypuff is pretty obviously not low tier in standard Brawl as far as I'm concerned. Outclassed as hell? Definitely, with guys like Wario, Metaknight, and even Kirby doing things that Jiggs can but ranking higher. In actual low tier tournaments, she really shouldn't be losing to anyone besides like..the Pokemon Trainer and Mario, who are also pretty clearly not low tier.

So yeah, reasons why people say Jiggs is low tier...super light, relatively low KO power, low range, firstoff notice that all of these things are NOT fundamental problems like the inability to poke/zone/stay safe. Those problems belong to characters that are actually low tier. Being super light doesn't matter if you are a good player who can stay extremely safe. Low KO power doesn't matter if you can poke your opponent enough until they are at a KO percent (while Sonic however is low tier because he has no viable KO move no matter how much damage he racks on his opponent). Low range sucks, but is workable when you have godly mobility and enough attack speed. Jiggs may indeed be very tedious to play, but fundamentally she has the tools to win. There are a number of characters who in fact lack tools that are required to win. Those are the ones that are in fact low tier.

A Jigglypuff did in fact win a BBrawl tournament if I recall.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Indeed.

In short, she's actually pretty good, just keep practicing with her.
/Jiggs topic

There's another character to discuss?
What about Ike?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike is pretty much overrated garbage in vBrawl, and still garbage in BBrawl. He's just better at being a homo in BBrawl. With his QD buff, he can run away more and avoid juggles/gimps. That is a helpful buff, and it also gives him an existent edgeguard game which makes him a bit more interesting. Onstage however, he's pretty fail.

He can try poking with Jabs and F-airs...which isn't close to being failsafe enough to make up for the fact the rest of his movepool is just terrible. His Jab cancel is decent but only leads into more Jabs until they SDI, or grabs, which really don't set up into anything that matters (ie, he can't set up into kills at all). His F-air is an OK attack, that becomes sucky once people powershield it on reaction. Aside from the new edgeguard options and homo options he has, he's still extremely linear, unable to really juggle or follow up effectively at all. He's the only character besides Snake who can't do two aerials in a jump, which is fail.

Oh and most importantly he just fails on shields...best he can do is try to Jab poke, although his Jabs are in fact shieldgrabbable, and then practically everything else just fails miserably on block, which is why Link beats him and why Samus DESTROYS him. Plus camping pretty much owns him due to how slow he is (which is also why Link and Samus > Ike). Oh yeah, DDD, ROB, Olimar, and the Pokemon Trainer also make Ike's life hell due to how much they can shieldgrab, and those characters usually can camp him too.

I really seriously doubt Ike has a single definitely favorable matchup in BBrawl. He's in a similar position to Ganon imo. He still has several extremely bad matchups too, with the obvious Samus and Olimar remaining so (the former becoming worse, no less).

 

[JOE!]

wait, why was bowser only discussed for like 3 posts?

he still has some problems we need to work out, such as help vs being juggled terribly easy?

 

[Mit]

Watching Renegade play Ally's Snake on a bi-weekly basis in vBrawl has me thinking Ike is a lot better than you make him out to be, A2Z.

Although, I suppose everything you said is perfectly in line with your thinking. You cite similar reasons for Ganondorf. Renegade is probably just an amazing player, with great mindgames and prediction abilities, and when you combine that with the amazing reward Ike provides when he lands moves, it makes him just fine.

Actually, I would love to see Renegade vs Ally in BBrawl. It'd be a great matchup to watch, and I'm sure Renegade would come out on top just as much as Ally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure I heard Renegade also admits his own character is garbage furthermore. Hence, he knows how to outplay Ike's weaknesses. Also...as amazing Ally is...I really highly doubt he's playing as gay as he could be against such a horrible and limited character. Even with Snake's nerfs and what buffs Ike has, I don't see Ike having a really fair chance in that matchup.

If you're going to put in so much effort into trying to say "but x character isn't bad under this player" you're really only hurting their chances to be properly balanced, considering it is PRETTY BLATANTLY OBVIOUS many other characters are simply better. What matchups does Ike do well in? At best he goes neutralish with a few other characters who suck or have little that ***** him (for example, Ganon, Zelda, Ness), loses to several more who are fundamentally better characters with better tools/options, and then loses REALLY BADLY to characters who can easily pick on the fact that Ike sucks if you can projectile camp him and have a really good shieldgrab.

I really highly doubt that anyone has any really huge disagreements that there is a clear current top tier that we are aiming to get all characters towards.

 

[Lokee]

wait, why was bowser only discussed for like 3 posts?

he still has some problems we need to work out, such as help vs being juggled terribly easy?

Bowser's biggest beef are approaching/ projectiles and what you just said, mainly cause of his size.
Thinking in the realm of drastic possibilities. So Im just going to throw ideas out there and you guys tell me what ya think

1) Speeding up Fire Breath start and end (Overall make it more applicable : hinder approaches, better following after Klawhopping and itself)

2) +KB and Super Armor on Nair (Basically make an aerial Outta my Face move)

3) Cut lag on Aerial Fortress/ Add SA on starting frames add a bit more KB (prevent interuption and make it a bit less punishable)

4)Add Armor on startup Bdown (make it less punishable Out of shield on hit, cover below Bowser while in the air)

5)Fix Downthrow (make followups better overall)

6) "WARNING HIGHLY DRASTIC" Make Grounded Fortress reflect prejectiles ( Im not sure if this would help, but it would look cool especially reflecting samus' charge shot)

I based most of these buffs on the concept of Bowser being the inmovable fortress with the fire power to boot, so yeah feel free to critize and such.

 

[SaltyKracka]

From my point of view, the biggest problem that Bowser has is his recovery. He actually has approach options, even though he may not have many, and ways to get around projectile camping. Furthermore, he has an excellent defensive game. Fortress OoS is one of the best defensive moves in the game, and his range and mobility don't actually hinder him as much when the enemy is coming to him.

But with Bowser's recovery as it is, it easily lowers him a few spots on the list. While it may not be as horribly short-ranged as Link's, nor as exceedingly gimpable as Ganondorf's, Bowser has a problem all his own. If he doesn't sweetspot, he can't recover. Once Bowser is offstage, characters with projectiles can easily camp right about the ledge and be sure of keeping him from recovering without damage. Characters without projectiles can easily ledgehog and then knock him back offstage to reset the situation with Bowser in a worse position. This is only exacerbated by the fact that his recovery, like most of the lower-tier ones, is very, VERY linear. In this way, once Bowser is offstage, assuming that the other player has some measure of competence, it basically becomes a juggle into death.

So what I recommend is that the landing lag on Aerial Fortress be DRASTICALLY lowered, or that it should at least have some IASA frames after landing so that Bowser can put up some kind of defense.

Also, A2, Ike isn't quite as bad as you state.

 

[JOE!]

doesnt M2K use Ike in low tier tournies/doubles?

anywho, bringing this up, i think Link may be bowser's new worst Mu due to one thing: off Stage arrows.

honestly, combining his ****ty vertical recovery, massive frame, and the downward angle on the arrows, it spells dooooooom for him.

I second a vote that a possible recovery buff be looked at, and possibly a slight cropping of lag on either end of firebreath to deal with his approach issues.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, M2K uses Ike in low tier tournaments. Not to mention Inui. idk M2K's opinion of Ike, I do know Inui's opinion, and it's consistent with mine that Ike is the 5th worst character in the game.

Ike can just spam lots of Jabs and F-airs, but doesn't have any other really viable strategies. He can't actually approach anyone, and he's probably one of the worst characters at dealing with camping in general, due to the way his priority is usually transcendent, and due to how slow he is (his aerials and tilts besides B-air are all powershieldable on reaction, and pretty unsafe in general). His Jab is good, but NOT BROKEN (loses to the disjointed pokes and aerial spacers that rule this game, and is in fact shieldgrabbable). Nothing Ike has is broken enough or close to it to make up for all of his horrible weaknesses. His onstage game is comparably bad to Ganon's. The differences are he has better pseudo poke options, and significantly worse juggle/combo options (although Ike can now escape juggles better than Ganon in BBrawl with his QD buff).

Salty, I honestly think Bowser is worse at dealing with projectile camping than Ganon. I mean, I can 2stock scrub Pit players with Ganon with tricks like Wizkick priority and Ganon's superior juggling game in general. The same scrub Pit player gets my Bowser down to the last stock consistently, just because of how easily he outprioritizes Bowser.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Good thing nobody cares how your non main characters perform versus the same opponent.

Honestly, Bowser may need a little buff here or there, but for the most part I think he is fine.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Good thing nobody cares how your non main characters perform versus the same opponent.

I'm going to have to echo this. You are a known Ganon and G&W main. What you aren't is a Bowser main. And while Pit might, MIGHT, be a worse matchup for Bowser than he is for Ganon, that does not exactly prove anything, simply because your level of skill with each character is vastly different, and Pit is only one character out of the whole roster.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My Bowser is pretty competent. I've been using him for several months, and I know most of his ATs and general strategies, and Brawl for the most part is a very easy game to play, since characters require very little technical skill. The person I'm playing SERIOUSLY SUCKS with Pit, and yet with all my superior knowledge of technical options and mindgames, I usually don't **** him with Bowser just because of how bad Bowser is at approaching.

Pit isn't even that amazing compared to some of the other people who are getting hyped in this game, yet Bowser pretty much loses at least 65/35 to him. Frankly, recovery is not his only problem, although indeed a big one.

Likewise, I've been using Marth and Metaknight for even less time than I have been using Bowser. I 2stock him - sometimes 3stock him - consistently with those characters.

 

[Hyrus]

1) Speeding up Fire Breath start and end
3) Cut lag on Aerial Fortress/ Add SA on starting frames add a bit more KB
4)Add Armor on startup Bdown
5)Fix Downthrow

Faster endlag on Firebreath would be an asset against disjointed/campy matchups due to the range. Firebreath, currently, isn't very safe on hit and can be escaped regardless of terrain... sometimes into a KO move (Luigi/Marth upB). Speeding up the startup, though, I feel wouldn't be very fair to people having to deal with it.

Cutting out the "bonus" lag on aerial fortress and some startup SA would be a significant asset in diversifying recovery.

Grounded DownB can be easily air-dodged on hit due to the delay on the way up (evidence to me that the game was intended to have higher hitstun at one point). I PMed AA on it, but he never responded. Either way, I don't see the move seriously affecting matchups.

Pit

Disjointedness seems pretty lame in Brawl, particularly since i play non-disjointed characters. It feels dumb when two pokes clash and end up KOing a bare fist character just because he's using a bare fist. That's not gonna change, though.

I've strongly felt certain projectiles should be nerfed considering their speed, range, and ability to refresh Diminishing Returns safely. Pit and Falco come to mind, since those attacks are just so potent against big/slow targets. It may not be Bowser's inability to deal with projectiles as much as it is the speed/range/saftey of those particular projectiles.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't think SA is gonna be viable unless AA and Thinkaman actually includes PSA, which I don't think so, because it's not going with BBrawl's goals in the first place.

About Bowser,
Firebreath buff may can work, but you must also analyze all of his MU's in order to having it working.
A DownB fix may could be unnecessay, because it actually doesn't hit at all; pretty like PK Freeze/Flash, though.

 

[Linkshot]

Perhaps a massive damage buff to Aerial Fortress would be of interest; enough damage to repeatedly outprioritise projectiles. As a bonus, if opponents mess up an interception, they'll get severely punished.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Projectiles are really not the only thing that ***** Bowser's recovery. Anything with a convenient hitbox that hits outwards ***** it, and if it happens to gimp extremely well, say like Mario's Cape and Pit's Down-B, well gg Bowser if you're not on battlefield. Mainly because landing on stage is generally not viable, since most characters can and will chase you down and throw you back offstage again.

Then again his recovery isn't the only reason why so many characters give him trouble...just generally speaking, his options around projectiles and his approach in general is really limited, and even though his defensive game is solid, that isn't enough to stop people with superior pokes from making his life miserable.

 

[leeray666]

I'm really interested in this hack.
However, I'm using Gecko to load the game anyway as I've got a US copy but am playing in the UK; and basically I'd like to just use the Gecko to load this hack directly. I'm really quite new to this type of thing though so have no idea what directories the files need to be in. I have tried a few things but all I get is a 'No SD codes found' message. Could anyone help please?

 

[Linkshot]

At your root (F:\ or whatever the letter should be), there should be a "codes" folder.

In "codes" should be RSBE01.gct

That's honestly everything you need. (Gecko you obviously already have)

Oh, right.

There should be "gameconfig.txt" file in "F:\"

 

[leeray666]

Is there anything else I need to know e.g. certain Gecko settings? As I'm still getting "SD Patch file not found" message

If I just have SD Cheats on it says "No hooks not applying code"

I apologise if this sounds rather basic, but I'm really not familiar with this kind of thing, any help would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are you sure you're NSTC?

 

[leeray666]

OK I think I've got it now.

Yep, it works great. Thanks to everyone who helped, and thank you for making this hack.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do know Inui's opinion, and it's consistent with mine that Ike is the 5th worst character in the game.

Thats because he plays his Ike like it's 2008. The dude doesn't even know when to use Usmash or Uair. All he does is Jab and Fair and double jump too much. And you seem to think of Ike in the same terms.

If Ike was actually that bad, there would be no way Kirk got 9th at No Koast going solo Ike. A very talent filled tournament, with many big names ending up placing lower. If it's really that easy to beat Ike by just shielding, how come there isn't a single video online of an Ike (let alone a good Ike) being destroyed by his opponent shield camping? It doesn't work.

Seriously, you agree with Inui of all people. That should tell you how badly off your logic is.

 

[Lokee]

On another note, Are you guys going to make another epic Showcase video for the 2010 Edition of Balanced Brawl? I still have chills from the Ganondorf part.

Plus I think everyone here would like to see more gameplay videos of this project in action.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seriously, he has a point. There are more Brawl- vids than Bbrawl vids.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I wonder how many times Inui comes up in name search?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thats because he plays his Ike like it's 2008. The dude doesn't even know when to use Usmash or Uair. All he does is Jab and Fair and double jump too much. And you seem to think of Ike in the same terms.

If Ike was actually that bad, there would be no way Kirk got 9th at No Koast going solo Ike. A very talent filled tournament, with many big names ending up placing lower. If it's really that easy to beat Ike by just shielding, how come there isn't a single video online of an Ike (let alone a good Ike) being destroyed by his opponent shield camping? It doesn't work.

Seriously, you agree with Inui of all people. That should tell you how badly off your logic is.

Your logic for Ike isn't any better. Inui also places well with Ike in tournament.

Kirk is just godly, and nobody bothers learning how to play against Ike. Even Koskinator managed to take 2nd in a tournament with Ganondorf, a clearly inferior character.

And virtually all the videos of Ike on youtube suck, because most of them involve people (even good players) making a lot of nub mistakes making Ike look a lot better than he actually is.

Shield camping does in fact own Ike, hence why Link beats him, why DDD, Samus, ROB, and other people with respectable shieldgrabs make Ike's life miserable. Even if you don't have a tether grab, you can still shieldgrab him out of Jabs furthermore.

Almost everyone who plays this game sucks (including myself). The Brawl community is much larger than the Melee community is, and more overrun by much more casual players who don't represent the game with proper reaction time and technical skill. You will see Marth players get away with Dancing Blade a lot, even though by now, it should be common knowledge that this is a move that can be easily SDIed. Considering that many "top" players don't even bother to SDI this move, it should give you an idea how behind almost everyone is in terms of what the metagame should be. If people are bad enough that they just don't learn proper reaction against Ike, sure, works for him. It doesn't change the fact that Ike doesn't have the tools to be a viable character in high level play, which is WHAT REALLY MATTERS for this project.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, your point is that almost every Brawl character is unviable, but we don't notice it because we normal human people are dumb?

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people that want to debate with you about it (against almost every point you just stated there), I just won't...