Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[JOE!]

so wait, who are viable then? Just team disjoint, DDD and Snake?

why dont we just nerf them down to everyone else's level?

 

[SaltyKracka]

so wait, who are viable then? Just team disjoint, DDD and Snake?

why dont we just nerf them down to everyone else's level?

You forgot Diddy and Kirby, but yeah.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Specifically, the most unviable characters of BBrawl are Ness, Ike, and Ganondorf (in order of increasing failure). Other problem characters imo are Yoshi, Bowser, Sonic, Fox, and Lucas, the latter ones being easier to fix. Everyone else is definitely fundamentally decent enough, but the top 10 is clearly a significant notch above the rest of the cast, and unfortunately the top 10 is in fact what this project aims to make every character like (level of Diddy Kong right? Diddy Kong is pretty amazingly good).

Really, even though I complain a lot, this project really has relatively few problems remaining honestly...properly address a few characters better, then everything is great, although it will probably need more minor tweaking for time to come.

 

[Steeler]

the diddy kong goal is not feasible (which i think is outdated because diddy kong is definitely a top 4 character these days), and i believe the "bar" should be set to rob/dk level or so. these characters are "fundamentally decent" with balanced strengths and weaknesses and mostly fair match-ups throughout the cast, but they simply struggled a lot against certain superior characters, which hinders their tournament viability. with this project's emphasis on match-ups, plus knocking down the top pegs a little bit, it ideally wouldn't be an issue.

however, i can see a problem arising from the politics of the situation of having to nerf characters down to that level, which i believe is firmly middle of upper tier on the basis of the character alone (meaning, ignoring the **** matchups that would be fixed in bbrawl anyway). i'd be alright with mk and snake still being the two best characters in the game if they were toned down enough to close the gap. but that's the problem. those top 3-5 or so are just so dominant when you compare them to the rest of the cast...i really think brawl is quite balanced in the middle third to half of the roster, but the top portion is just so good and the very bottom portion is just so bad. why not focus on the portion that is already on pretty even footing?

the higher the bar is set, the more difficult it is to balance the game and maintain as much of the "flavor" or "uniqueness" of the original characters as possible. you have to be very careful with polarizing characters, because a top level set of strengths is just crippling sometimes when not enough is done to offset a character's weaknesses to those specific strengths. this is why samus v ganondorf is even more terrible in bbrawl than in vbrawl.

i'm sure that AA and thinkaman already know all of this though, they are two very, very bright guys. but i do think that my suggestion of lowering the bar a little bit has some merit to it. getting some of those SSE stages to work (or maybe custom stages if they were compatible) would also help.

 

[A2ZOMG]

the higher the bar is set, the more difficult it is to balance the game and maintain as much of the "flavor" or "uniqueness" of the original characters as possible.

Ideally, the differences of characters are that they have combos or damage dealers (not to mention KO moves) that work in different situations, and different ratios of viable poke/approach options compared to other characters. And of course the technical differences that come with different physics and hitbox sizes.

SF4 has very very few "****" matchups (probably Sagat vs Zangief is the most prominent example), and yet all the characters are VERY different (even Ken and Ryu have very significant differences in terms of general strategies). And at the same time, all the characters generally speaking have the tools to be competent in competitive play. Preserving uniqueness and flavor is really not that hard as far as I'm concerned. Especially in a game like Brawl which deliberately has done A LOT to make characters unique (but has put in very little time in fairly distributing competitive tools).

And BlazBlue...is another game that is often recognized for its wildly different characters, and yet that game manages to also be recognized as a solid, balanced competitive fighter (although there is one **** matchup in the name of Tager vs v-13).

Brawl has characters that actually lack competitive tools, so I think the highest priority right now is recognizing that and giving those characters tools to make themselves viable in competitive situations where they fail.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@ steeler
As an extra, due to no naner-locks, vDiddy's level is different than BDiddy's one.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that they wanted a high-level good quality matches, and "Diddy" was most likely and example of the quality they was looking for.
May "DK level" sounds pretty low in paper, but if the result is a well-balanced game, may we can look for this to result first, and then think on upgrading its level.

 

[MKOwnage]

Just a question. Since you didn't change core elements this wont run the risk of wrecking my game or system correct?

 

[SaltyKracka]

....Entirely. Unless you have Homebrew installed, and want to update your Wii. But them's the risks!

 

[Eyada]

Just a question. Since you didn't change core elements this wont run the risk of wrecking my game or system correct?

As long as you are using the Stack Smash method to boot BBrawl there is no risk to your system. If you are booting BBrawl through Homebrew Channel then you'll obviously have to deal with the (minor) risks associated with having the Homebrew Channel on your Wii. BBrawl itself is harmless.

Fox

Out of curiosity: In your opinion, what makes Fox nonviable? What changes do you think he needs?

-----

Edit: While I'm at it, I might as well list two possible bugs:

First: When Fox pummels Donkey Kong at the highest pummel rate possible for Fox a seemingly random number of the pummels miss DK due to his annoying flopping animation. If you attempt 4 pummels, for example, you'll hit anywhere from 2-4 of them depending on how lucky you are. As far as I know, Fox can pummel all other characters at maximum speed with no trouble. This does not occur if you pummel DK slowly.

I'm not sure if that is something that can be fixed, but it can't hurt to mention it.

Second: MK can still U-air Ganon out of Dark Dive, but I suspect that you're already aware of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox isn't exactly unviable. He just has significantly more problems than most of the cast.

I mean several characters still combo him a lot even if he's no longer infinited. And he's super light, which speaks for itself. None of his poke or approach options are exactly consistent, in that they all rely on baiting and punishing mistakes, and of course he's easily shieldgrabbed whenever he guesses wrong, and similarly, he suffers that same problem, only to a greater extent when actually trying to score KOs. If you start being extremely conservative at all costs, Fox cannot reliably KO you in singles (although he's formidable in doubles). This wouldn't be a problem if Fox could score kills safely, but as it is, he can't spam anything because very little of his moveset is safe on defenses.

He has one safe strategy, which is laser camping, but that has relatively low reward, and some characters can duck under it furthermore.

That being said, I really don't think he should be hard to fix, as something as simple as upping the damage on lasers probably is enough. Or altering one of his throws to make it a better option limiter (as Fox relies on grabs A LOT).

 

[JOE!]

hmn, why dont we discuss the problem characters A2 mentioned?

lesse, we allready did Sonic, Bowser (kinda), mother bois, ganon, Fox doenst need too much attention in regards to fixes, as just making lasers or something he does alot more rewarding should be good...


anyone?

 

[deepseadiva]

Needs more Peach discussion.

 

[JOE!]

Needs more Peach discussion.

cant we all just get along?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach is great, just make her even a little bit better and she'll be up there.

And of course nerfing Marth would work too. Or doing both.

 

[JOE!]

Peach is great, just make her even a little bit better and she'll be up there.

And of course nerfing Marth would work too. Or doing both.

nerfing marth would help more people. He is the opposite of most low tiers: he has *too* much reward n hit, granted how relativly easy it is to hit with him (big, fast hitboxes with disjoint)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Marth's zoning is kinda too broken. I mean his mobility is VERY good, and this is on top of above average speed in terms of startup, ending lag (just ignore stuff like his unsafe smashes), and frame advantages. And his tippers...

Probably the best thing that can be done to Marth right now is some adjustments to his F-air. Make it less powerful/rewarding, and give it 3 more frames of landing lag so that you KNOW you will be able to shieldgrab it when he lands right in your face with it.

As for Yoshi...really, I dunno how this character is supposed to be fixed. Actually, what I do know is that Yoshi suffers the problem "I can't kill you if you start being a homo" and "no consistent approach, I'll just camp you and hope you run into it". His extremely bad shield is also a problem...

Spotdodge to buffed D-smash in theory should make him not garbage assuming he can get that off three times a match...or if his new F-air is actually viable enough for him to land consistently (which frankly, it isn't). Except that still doesn't completely answer how "I can't kill you if you start being a homo".

Trust me, I actually tried to be homo against a Yoshi in tournament (with Mario). Survived to 200% every stock.

 

[Mit]

Meno, did you ever try your hand at a BBrawl title screen? :O

Also, just a quick thought, if this moves to a PSA foundation as opposed to just code, that'd mean custom textures would be out, wouldn't it? ;_; Unless you go through and manually replace textures in the new character .pacs.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about how it all works too.

 

[deepseadiva]

Meno, did you ever try your hand at a BBrawl title screen? :O

Funny you should ask.

I just got home to my PC this week and I just finished downloading and looking things over in this "SmashBox" thing. Doesn't look exceedingly difficult, but coming up with an appealing design with the size restrictions might be. At this point I'm kinda just imagining the BBrawl logo on top of the Brawl+ "plus".

But I'm gonna poke around some more with scaling and such and maybe have a mock-up done soon.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, Marth's zoning is kinda too broken. I mean his mobility is VERY good, and this is on top of above average speed in terms of startup, ending lag (just ignore stuff like his unsafe smashes), and frame advantages. And his tippers...

Probably the best thing that can be done to Marth right now is some adjustments to his F-air. Make it less powerful/rewarding, and give it 3 more frames of landing lag so that you KNOW you will be able to shieldgrab it when he lands right in your face with it.

As for Yoshi...really, I dunno how this character is supposed to be fixed. Actually, what I do know is that Yoshi suffers the problem "I can't kill you if you start being a homo" and "no consistent approach, I'll just camp you and hope you run into it". His extremely bad shield is also a problem...

Spotdodge to buffed D-smash in theory should make him not garbage assuming he can get that off three times a match...or if his new F-air is actually viable enough for him to land consistently (which frankly, it isn't). Except that still doesn't completely answer how "I can't kill you if you start being a homo".

Trust me, I actually tried to be homo against a Yoshi in tournament (with Mario). Survived to 200% every stock.

hmn, is there any way to make a shield more resistant? Seeing as it cannot be poked, and has crappy lag attached to it, perhaps giving it a perk that it decays twice as slow/takes half damage?

as for kills, perhaps a few simple angle changes on stuff could work? For example...Sourspot Fair and Nair(whenever) send more downward, then work from there...

EDIT: as for marth, maybe we could nerf his tipper a tad?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, probably altering Yoshi's N-air is the best new change that he can get.

Marth's tipper doesn't necessarily have to be nerfed in general. Mainly, his zoning game needs to be weaker. Also, he **** combos some characters like Falco with a chaingrab, so increasing the damage of his throws would probably be necessary.

 

[B!squick]

Nerf Marth's recovery. That'll learn him.

 

[JOE!]

Nerf Marth's recovery. That'll learn him.

thats not that big of an issue as many characters have trouble just approaching him in the first place to get him in that situation

 

[B!squick]

Better payoff might balance him out. *shrug* Also, had this idea for Bowser:

I [think] giving some benefit to the landing hit box [of Bowser's USmash] would make it better than UTilt in different situations. Like, say, if it did that grounded effect they added to other random moves. Then if you smell an AD you can USmash instead of UTilt.

 

[Mikeomak]

Umm, anyone see any issues with Ivysaurs recovery now or is it just me? seems broken. needs more lag IMO.

 

[Linkshot]

It still sucks, imo.

The Brawl+ dAir is amazing and I think Ivysaur would love that here.

She keeps horizontal momentum.

 

[Steeler]

Brawl has characters that actually lack competitive tools, so I think the highest priority right now is recognizing that and giving those characters tools to make themselves viable in competitive situations where they fail.

true, but the developers want to keep this as close to the original version as possible. a few characters simply need way too much help to achieve diddy status.

 

[Mikeomak]

Still sucks? You can whip someone off the edge fall and whip again to still get back up. The problem i see with it as that using it makes ivysaur go slightly up and by repetativley using it you dont really go to much lower then you were making it extremely hard to edge guard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Still sucks? You can whip someone off the edge fall and whip again to still get back up. The problem i see with it as that using it makes ivysaur go slightly up and by repetativley using it you dont really go to much lower then you were making it extremely hard to edge guard.

*yawns* easy cape. I'll gimp it any day of the week.

Sure you actually need a brain to edgeguard Ivysaur, but that's entirely feasible for the average person. Her recovery is like...between Wolf and Bowser's recovery. Still pretty terrible. No longer the worst recovery is a plus, but it's not spectacular by any means. Next to no defensive tools offstage, little mobility (and distance for that matter), super predictable, the last one in particular really killing her recovery.

 

[Lokee]

Still sucks? You can whip someone off the edge fall and whip again to still get back up. The problem i see with it as that using it makes ivysaur go slightly up and by repetativley using it you dont really go to much lower then you were making it extremely hard to edge guard.

They added more ending lag to the nonsweetspot version to prevent stalling. So basically everytime you do it you go lower until you too far to sweetspot the edge. Plus Ivy still has slow aerial mobility and such.

Referring to Steeler's Post

Quite the problem about balancing. Clearly the chracters that were high before are still high abiet with some few who already had the potenial to be good now being amazing eg: Mario/Samus. I think we should use BBrawl Link as the focused example. He is clearly better now However he might just be the most perfected balanced character.

He has his strengths: projectile/camping game, disjoints, KO power, relatively heavy
Then he has his weaknesses: poor aerial mobiliy, poor offstage game, terrible recovery, often sluggish moves.

BALANCE!! ....but wait...then you have.....
Marth, G+W, MK, Snake, etc. characters with few weaknesses and strengths so overwelming that they engulf these weaknesses. So yeah basically setting the bar lower wouldnt hurt.
I like what was stated previously about the midtier characters having the best balance within themselves which I also believe its true.

While its an amazing effort to balanced all these unlike characters with the fewest changes possible,( They've done an extraordinary job so far) but it seems that true balance cannot be achieved if certain aspects of this game's characters are not at least somewhat radically changed which relates to Diddy's level guiding (not necessarily the standard anymore) the balance of this game. Obviously in extremes we have Ganon and Diddy. One cleary amazing and one clearly terrible. It seems in a situation like this Ganon may never be "AS" good as DiddyK without some major improvements and drastic ones at that UNLESS the amazing character is taken down a notch to a more acceptable level basically elaborating on "Lowering the Bar" the problem with that is mostly publicity issue where vbrawl mains of these top chars. with most likely be diswayed with BBrawl because of this so its quite the dilema. so yeah........

 

[Eldiran]

Aye, the big problem is that the easiest way to achieve balance (and the way most in line with BBrawl's policy of changing the minimum) is to nerf these higher tier characters. However, being the high tier characters, they get the most use, and have the most mains... so nerfing them repels the most people.

I personally like the idea of nerfing the big things and giving them toys to keep him happy (a la Snake's Dsmash and MK's Down+B) but I'm not sure it actually works to attract these characters' mains. If it does, the reason is probably just because the MK and Snake mains (MK primarily) would like to escape the stigma of using the best character(s), so it will work even less for the likes of Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W has very few mains, so honestly, not many people will get mad if he's nerfed. Especially since there are at least three who support this project (AA, Mr Escalator, myself). The way I wanted to balance G&W was reducing the damage on his B-air, so that it ***** his best matchups less, but makes it harder for other characters (ie Marth) to SDI punish.

As for Marth...aside from nerfing his F-air, I did suggest +1 damage to all throws. That's both a buff and a nerf. Losing combos due to associated knockback increases makes his throw game less dominating, but the extra damage you give him on U-throw means he gets a better pocket KO option.

 

[Mikeomak]

*yawns* easy cape. I'll gimp it any day of the week.

Sure you actually need a brain to edgeguard Ivysaur, but that's entirely feasible for the average person. Her recovery is like...between Wolf and Bowser's recovery. Still pretty terrible. No longer the worst recovery is a plus, but it's not spectacular by any means. Next to no defensive tools offstage, little mobility (and distance for that matter), super predictable, the last one in particular really killing her recovery.

Im not saying her recovery is super good, it just seems like theres more risk then reward.

Lokee has a great point.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't see it very groundbreaker, due to Ivy is overall awful...

btw, I'll also vote to suspend the relase for a while:
First, get a well-balanced game at mid/higher-tier level
and when you archieve that, then upgrade it little by little.
In the end, you'll have a well-balanced good quality game.
just sayin

 

[Lokee]

I think the next version was to be released around Febuaryish Basically early first quarter 2010 so there is still time.
Hopefully we'll start seeing some testing videoes before then.

 

[JOE!]

speaking of throw buffs, think yoshi could stand to do a bit more damage with his throws? Sure, he has a horrible time killing if you be a homo, but he has a rather easy time getting grabs, and with a buffed pummel and loss of grab-release, perhaps some added bonus to his rather lack-luster throws (best only does like 8-9%, withiout anythign to go from it) maybe just making getting grabbed by yoshi all the scarier again?

EDIT:
derp, those are the buffed values...

but anywho, perhaps somehow just making his throws + pummel scary to compensate for lack of grab release, and give him even more ways to rack damage to get you to the anti-homo %'s?

 

[ぱみゅ]

And then, capitalizing the "being homo" against him even more...

It's not a against-homo tool, is most likely an invitation to do it...

 

[JOE!]

And then, capitalizing the "being homo" against him even more...

It's not a against-homo tool, is most likely an invitation to do it...

hmn, then how about some angle changes along with it? Possibly even Fthrow (or Bthrow) doing more horizontal KB, kind of like what happened with Falcon's Utilt...

essentially, to defeat the "playing gay" way to win vs Yoshi, Yoshi could use his great grab game to his advantage to setup potential kills/bad situations for characters

 

[The_Altrox]

While we're on the topic of nerfs and buffs... Is there any proof that this game is "balanced" now?
Sure, some characters are a lot better now. And I know we're gonna get an updated version later on. But is there any actual proof that balance exists now? I mean, if the best Ganondorf in VBrawl took on M2K's MK, and they were aware of all the changes, would the Ganon hold his own and maybe even win?
I think we need more vids personally (wish I could upload mine), and I think we need to get the mass of pros to play more rather than just the few. I may hold a BBrawl tourney in the future, so I guess I can make judgements from that, but not all of them...

 

[Fuujin]

I say give Ike's Aether double/triple damage and knockback and make it heal him half of the damage it deals(not even sure if it's possible)
I'd make perfect sense no?

 

[Mikeomak]

Why heal him?