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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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Blubba_Pinecone

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I can't say I'm the word of reason to listen to with Link's arrows, but I feel safe saying they are not an issue. Yes, they have a lot of knockback, but it's just enough to essentially make some other recoveries as bad as his.

In fact, I feel very comfortable saying that, as with normal Brawl, Link is still at a disadvantage to many chars, even with the new arrows (but they are indeed a great help).

I'm enjoying my status with Link in normal Brawl, so I don't think I'll switch to playing bBrawl; and because I'm lazy, but from what I've played of it, it seems very nice. Good work.
 

Mikeomak

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Im not saying take away all the knockback. But i see now why he was given that.
Also why not add some knockback to his boomerange or something? To me that seems like a more "appropriate" gimping tool.

@Blubba Pinecone: Yeah, im enjoying this far better then normal brawl at the moment.
 

A2ZOMG

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Link's Boomerang already gimps people. heard of Gale Guarding? Furthermore, it can be used as a tech trap setup.

Personally me, I think Link's arrows are best used to get people offstage, as opposed to edgeguarding. You get them offstage, they grab the ledge, they do a predictable getup, you D-air them, PROFIT!

That would take A LOT of changes to fix. Yikes, I say we wait until the NEXT standard release.
My first changes would be too change is aerial momentum to be faster. But honestly, what would YOU do to fix the damage racking problems?
Specifically reduce the ending lag of PK Fire. Make F-smash either less laggy, more damaging on shields, or both.

PK Fire is Ness's most powerful setup, but generally not viable in high level play by virtue of horrible startup and ending lag. Ness's F-smash...is just generally a terrible move that can really can't do much of anything unless the opponent walks into it. Reducing the ending lag of course would be ideal, but increasing the shield damage would also help, since Ness is a character who would appreciate his moves having a greater chance of shield poking (specifically, this would help PK Fire and his F-air quite a bit).
 

Mikeomak

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Ive heard of Gale guarding, but how often are you going to take the risk of jumping off the ledge to set that up (i dont know, i dont play link much but i've played against a few.)?

I don't play verse Ness very often at all, but what i have played against A2ZOMG seems to be right.
 

Hyrus

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Arguing that Snake should be lighter because of his size is a ******** way to push a point in a game where physics and logic make little since in the first place. I'm pretty sure Wario is heavy-ish and he's half the size of most heavy's, not to mention his floaty air game. If it's about balance, you can make a point but not if it's about realism.

I love the angle of Link's arrows, but I don't know that they need to be so powerful at higher percents.
 

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Peach doesn't really impress me, and I suspect she's in the bottom half. However, I'm not confident in saying she is; her buffs do help her, and there doesn't seem to be dissatisfaction over this rendition of Peach. She's definitely viable as is in any case; she was pushing the line in standard Brawl, and with the "fall of Meta Knight" along with the fact that she's buffed, it's just obvious she's past it now.
Peach is both over and underrated.
Every peach player has virtually their own style, some use more Dair, more Fair, more turnips or more anything (actually, few players can use her as she should). Peach's moveset allows that.
Anyways, every Peach player agrees with the fact that she can't kill. That wouldn't matter if she were basically a damage character, but she is not.
She has an okay not-groundbreak damage ability, but she just won't score a ko until her oponents screws up.
So, unlike Sonic or Sheik, she actually needs more killing potential.
Bair is actually a very good buff, and Nair is a better trap; but other than that, she's basically the same.


Yoshi is my least favorite character to actually use so he can be hard for me to evaluate. That being said, I see him as a character with a very clear strategy (throw lots of eggs and camp with pivot grabs and safe jabs, rely on the fact that you are really survivable to trade hits as often as possible while doing this). I see the rest of his moveset being largely supportive of this clear strategy, really moreso than it was before (his tilts in particular are just better at what they do). I tihnk some of his core limitations (such as his shield game) probably keep him in bottom half, but I don't think he's really very far down and is mostly in a good place. Perhaps some toning and tweaking in Yoshi's favor is in order though.
vYoshi was uderrated. The Egg Toss wasn't used as it should... but he had very hard times with gimps, and also, he has the fact that he could't really rack the damage he needs.
BYoshi is still very gimpable, but very good anyways (Egg Toss FTW!).


Wario is a character I think isn't getting enough critical analysis and is an example of some internal dischord. I think we possibly overnerfed Wario and wouldn't be surprised to see him in bottom half. Thinkaman has always had some concerns that our project carried a big risk of making the game too easy for Wario to dominate. I know on some internal tier list discussion I put Wario at 28th or something and Thinkaman was dumbfounded. In practice, we just haven't heard much from Wario though, and given all this, he probably is fine where he is.
Wario just isn't very popular, and actually, few people really does have full knowledge about him..

Zelda & Sheik I think are easily top half and maybe top tier (I'm not sold on that) and are kinda being slept on because people are too concerned with their hatred of half of the character (one way or another really) and not concerned enough with how to use what's there to win with this character. I do think Sheik is still the "dominant" half of the duo, but I think reports of Zelda just being terrible are really exaggerated. Zelda just has a really simple playstyle; that doesn't mean she's bad (and her buffs are non-trivial). I think a player who was willing to use both halves to their full potential and was just unconcerned with preference one way or another would be a really huge threat, and I hope to eventually see that.
Combo is very good, maybe not "top", but Sheik deals damage VERY GOOD, and Zelda is a decent character herself.
Only thing that bothers me is that Sheik do masive damage, and she'll be at percentage advantage most the time; and with Zelda, sure oponents will fear even being touched, but she'll get hitted a lot before she gets her "chance" to kill, unless you really knows her well.
Finally, BZelda has a lot of new tricks, even if that's cool, it's really unnecessary because of her "simple playstyle". Maybe you just need to address that better.


Samus is probably a little overpolarizing, but in terms of her overall quality, I'm left a bit unsure. She still seems to have kill problems, but the rest of her game is fairly solid. I'd probably put her in top half all things considered, but I don't think she's really top tier.
Sure, she normally would have those problems, but in BBrawl, you just covered everything: she now can do masive damage with just camping. That forces an aproach attempt, and she has 2 obvious options (maybe more, depending the player): Zair to continue camping, or bait the oponent and use a powerful, fast kill move. Both together makes her a very good -theorically talking (I can't say it certainly, my friend that uses Samus is actually much better than me anyways)- character.

Pit is a character I'm fairly sure is in bottom half in Balanced Brawl, probably not the worst character but maybe a contender. It's not that Pit is bad; Pit always has been and remains a tournament viable character (surprise: I think everyone is viable in Bbrawl). He was just kinda one of the worse viable characters in standard Brawl, and we were probably over-conservative with buffs on him.
(see Wario)

Meta Knight is probably worse than people suspect; I think his killing problems are actually pretty bad now (I think living to 200% against MK even for light characters is non-surprising). That being said, his raw ability to land attacks and control space is so good that I think he's probably still top half; I just can't envision him as a top tier in Balanced Brawl.
MK now has something that he hadn't in vBrawl: bad matchups (I'd say that DK and Snake ones are pretty bad).
His God-tier tools has been disabled, but in general, most of his good stuff are okay, so, he's overall fine (finally he's not spam-dependant!!)


Oimar is one of those characters that makes designing for balance hard. In very few matchups is Olimar "just another matchup". He is pretty likely to be "the worst machup" and even for characters that can deal with him he forces them to fight completely differently. Olimar likewise has issues largely with the types of things that are typically strange to have issues with; Peach's float is the most terrifying character attribute in the game for Olimar. I think changes external to Olimar have made great progress in this regard (with his improved up special somewhat helping against his problems), but I think we probably still have more progress to make largely in making characters like Ganondorf do better against him but also while not really nerfing him overall since Olimar is another one of those only "maybe" top half of the cast characters.
If he consistently grab you, you're death. If you gimp him, he's death. Really, oli ins't THAT good, but it's really hard to play against. It's hard to find a way to depolarize this...

Fox is perhaps being slept on but perhaps not. It's easier to see him as bottom half than top half, but I don't see him as a candidate for worst in the game at all and also have this vague notion of a chance he's just really, really undersold and maybe well in the top half that isn't being realized. I think "very timid buff" is still the name of the game here.
Unpopulaity contest, anyone?

Falco is a fundamentally decent character that is probably worse than he was in standard Brawl but in ways that make the game so much better. He's probably still top half, but I don't see him as a top tier.
He's decent, but the only thing that had him in the "Diddy's level" was the CG. He now may needs more damaging tools or setups.

Unpopular...
next!


Captain Falcon is my pick for worst; I know there isn't agreement on that. I still see him as viable, but it just seems like he has to work harder and play better than everyone else to score those wins. I don't think the engine in general is very supportive of his playstyle (it's not just "lol Brawl no combos"; the idea of a character who has mobility and power but not attack speed or range/disjointedness is a very hard one to make good without being ridiculous in the Brawl engine). He'll be a challenge.
A long discusion can come out of him.
He has a very good mobility, but his hitboxes doesn't help this... He just can't hit unless putting himsef in risk of being hitted (LIKE A MAN!).
More reward out of this is the best idea you could have! But he's still having just the same trouble than before... he's a piece of cake for a faster/disjointed character.


Pikachu is a character I think is in bottom half which is kinda a shame since Pikachu was in a good overall place in standard Brawl but had issues that just had to be addressed with that dthrow.
I'd say Pika should combo more....
just sayin'...


Pokemon Trainer is a character I really think is a top tier still. He's just so flexible and diverse. However, the more I look at how things play out, the more I'm seeing the fact that his high learning curve may be too much for everyone. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are nothing alike at all, and even most PT mains seem to be legitimately bad with one of them (steeler, the PT main I know well, is the type of player who I don't think could ever really succeed with a character like Ivysaur regardless of how good he is; it's just totally contrary to his impulses as a player). It ends up meaning we have a "best character" who can only be played as the best character by someone who is Azen-like in character use, the sort of player who has no real attachment to any one playstyle and just uses whatever that character needs to win no matter what it happens to be (a very, very rare sort of player). To be honest, I don't really have a problem with that, but it does mean that PT doesn't really need any sort of nerfing at all and maybe even may see some changes that would count as buffs just because of the nature of the character preventing anyone from truly exploiting how amazing he is.
Maybe that's true. But if most people agrees that Ivy is terrible, maybe it's not...
Ivy is decent, but she's just not enough of a match for most people.

Even if the feneral idea of PT is a team, Pokemons aren't switched like Zelda and Sheik, they'll be most likely out for a whole stock, because swapping in a high-percentage rate could even end in an unfavorable situation..


Lucario is probably top half and has probably been slept on. Seriously, no one has had anything to say about him, but he is a good character who got non-trivially better.
I'm pretty sure Lucario's problems were addressed wrong and now he's pretty overbuffed, but he's not popular enough to let us know it...

Ike is definitely top half; he has some issues still in a few matchups, but the new Quick Draw is just amazing and fleshes out his "it honestly wasn't that bad in the first place" game so much. I mean, just look at him now. He has amazing power and range, the best jab in the game, and suddenly decent mobility and recovery if he's willing to commit to Quick Draw which is a big enough deal that just spamming it ultimately is probably a bad tactic but that he can use it quite a bit and in creative ways that no one really considered before.
QD is and explotable buff, try and mess with it!

Snake is possibly still top tier and definitely still top half. He's an awkward sort of character of big advantages and big weaknesses that I think people don't really understand well on a design level because of how well the particulars about him work out. He could probably use some smoothing out if nothing else.
Utilt is just not ridiculous. Other than that, he's virtually the same character, with tons of strategies, damaging tools, kill options, and the best survival rate... but, also all of his weakness are just the same. he's pretty well like he is rright now (Utilt is maybe the only nerf he needed...).
 

JOE!

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Arguing that Snake should be lighter because of his size is a ******** way to push a point in a game where physics and logic make little since in the first place. I'm pretty sure Wario is heavy-ish and he's half the size of most heavy's, not to mention his floaty air game. If it's about balance, you can make a point but not if it's about realism.

I love the angle of Link's arrows, but I don't know that they need to be so powerful at higher percents.
wario and yoshi are tied for 8th heaviest, but arent terribly small. They are both wide and semi-tall.

Snake on the otherhand has the size of someone like Falcon, who is borderline heavy, but has teh weight of a SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT.

the balance around being a super-heavyweight is usually the fact that you;re easier to hit to boot...Snake breaks this somewhat
 

camzy

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wario and yoshi are tied for 8th heaviest, but arent terribly small. They are both wide and semi-tall.

Snake on the otherhand has the size of someone like Falcon, who is borderline heavy, but has teh weight of a SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT.

the balance around being a super-heavyweight is usually the fact that you;re easier to hit to boot...Snake breaks this somewhat
How does that make sense?

Snake is easier to hit than Wario and Yoshi! He's taller so you can usually hit him with aerials and SH'ed blasters.

You're arguing the wrong way. It's not really the fact that he's heavy that's broken. It's that his mobility is too good. He rolls and can react very quickly compared to Bowser, DK, Ike and Ganon. So to balance him, we either have to make him Captain Falcon type weight and keep his speed or downgrade his speed to DK level and keep his weight.
 

JOE!

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How does that make sense?

Snake is easier to hit than Wario and Yoshi! He's taller so you can usually hit him with aerials and SH'ed blasters.

You're arguing the wrong way. It's not really the fact that he's heavy that's broken. It's that his mobility is too good. He rolls and can react very quickly compared to Bowser, DK, Ike and Ganon. So to balance him, we either have to make him Captain Falcon type weight and keep his speed or downgrade his speed to DK level and keep his weight.
you do realize he is only slightly bigger than wario/yoshi, while being the 3rd heaviest character?

he is heavier than king DDD, while only being half the size
 

Meru.

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I don't really know about Peach, because I haven't really played any good people.

Peach doesn't really impress me, and I suspect she's in the bottom half. However, I'm not confident in saying she is; her buffs do help her, and there doesn't seem to be dissatisfaction over this rendition of Peach. She's definitely viable as is in any case; she was pushing the line in standard Brawl, and with the "fall of Meta Knight" along with the fact that she's buffed, it's just obvious she's past it now.
This is true, she's viable, especially because Meta and Snake don't give her that much trouble anymore (though they were not extremely bad to begin with IMO, around 40-60, their advantage). Keep in mind that she could have got some harder match-ups, because other characters have been buffed.

I have two problems with Peach as she is now:

1. the knockback buff on her fthrow is not enough to make it a useful kill move. People are able to survive it up to, if not above 150% at the ledge, which I think is still too much. Peach has a terrible grab range (the grabbox doesn't even reach as far as her hand goes) so I think that increasing the reward on a successful grab isn't too much to ask.
I agree with the Fthrow buff. It's generally useless. It kills at 180% or something like that with some DI. With actually good DI I can imagine they'll live even longer! I do disagree with what you said about her grab though, her grab is good. It's fast and does have some range, not to mention she has the fastest dash grab.

Honestly Peach is just plain underestimated. Peach is a character who is able to camp and pressure defenses really well once she gets a zone and rhythm established, and while her buffs aren't as big as she may prefer, none of her problems are really insurmountable.
True.

Anyway, if Peach were to be buffed, I'd say a strong Fthrow would be nice. It would compliment her game as well and make killing easier, as people need to be cautious not be grabbed, but also not to get hit by her powerful aerials; staying in the air isn't a good option.


:052:
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
Zelda & Sheik I think are easily top half and maybe top tier (I'm not sold on that) and are kinda being slept on because people are too concerned with their hatred of half of the character (one way or another really) and not concerned enough with how to use what's there to win with this character. I do think Sheik is still the "dominant" half of the duo, but I think reports of Zelda just being terrible are really exaggerated. Zelda just has a really simple playstyle; that doesn't mean she's bad (and her buffs are non-trivial). I think a player who was willing to use both halves to their full potential and was just unconcerned with preference one way or another would be a really huge threat, and I hope to eventually see that.
Zelda is still terrble.
When the current vbrawl tier list came out she had advantageous 60-40 match ups on Dedede , Kirby and Ice climbers that moved to 50-50 and 40-60 on characters such as Snake and Mk that moved to 25/35-75/65, The peach match up went from 45-55 to 40-60. I honestly think her and Mario need to switch places on the list. Look at her match ups for all of the top 10 characters. She loses all of them except Falco and Dedede and IC's by 40-60 or over and half of them by 30-70 or worse.
And the Mario match up defiantly no longer 50-50 with his new kill power.


Combo is very good, maybe not "top", but Sheik deals damage VERY GOOD, and Zelda is a decent character herself.
Only thing that bothers me is that Sheik do masive damage, and she'll be at percentage advantage most the time; and with Zelda, sure oponents will fear even being touched, but she'll get hitted a lot before she gets her "chance" to kill, unless you really knows her well.
Finally, BZelda has a lot of new tricks, even if that's cool, it's really unnecessary because of her "simple playstyle". Maybe you just need to address that better.
Once gain she is not a "decent character" by herself. The only significant buffs she got were Forward smash isn't incredibly easy to DI out of , back throws power and the slightly faster transformation time.
I would add Far ore's wind kill set up but it's very easily telegraphed and punishable on block in high level play. The fact that it spikes is nice but the edge invincibility frames last so long in brawl and edge hogging her is still very easy.
Her jab is actually worse as the flower only does one damage unless the person stands still and lets it leech life from them.
Down smash no longer semi spikes which was very useful in her horrible Olimar match up.
Side tilt functions as another D tilt but is slow and doesn't combo into it's self.
At this rate all Zelda functions as is a kill move for Sheik except in the fewer match ups where she can hold her own.
Sheik honestly is worse in my opinion.
Sure she isn't as bad as Zelda but she lost her best move and got small buffs to compensate for it.
You don't want to use Needles at close range because the opponent can SDI toward you and punish the ending lag on it with the minimal hit stun the needles dish out. D air is still really bad and the 1% damage buff
Sure her other minor set ups are nice but don't make up for how amazing her F tilt was.
I think in bbrawl Mario and Samus beat her pretty bad she's even if not at a disadvantage with Fox.
Tilt lock loss affects many er match ups that were in her advantage or near even, mainly Fox, Ike, Wolf, Dedede, DK and even helped her not get destroyed by losing match ups like Olimar and GnW.
As I mentioned earlier it seems like bbrawls standing view of the 2 is "Zelda gets destroyed by many different characters but as long as Sheik is slightly better the 2 are well off"
 

Hyrus

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you do realize he is only slightly bigger than wario/yoshi, while being the 3rd heaviest character? he is heavier than king DDD, while only being half the size
Size is only one attribute, worthless in analysis without consideration to attack speed, pressure, recovery, etc. You'd push your point better by saying that Snake has great matchups across the board, great zoning, massive KO power, and that a weight reduction would compensate those advantages. ...Rather then focusing on just size as justification. The game is riddled with exceptions to the rules.

I don't know how much weight plays into being hit/trajectory/etc, but that might be a significant gameplay change BBrawl doesn't want. And then it'd need testing to make sure some weird physics don't occur as a result. But then it's possible some attack changes could fix the character just the same. I'm not trying to shut you down or anything, it's just that you've made your suggestion and it's up to the Duo to figure out what, if anything, they wanna do.
 

camzy

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you do realize he is only slightly bigger than wario/yoshi, while being the 3rd heaviest character?

he is heavier than king DDD, while only being half the size
As I said, size isn't really the problem. Snake is a great character with great moves, KO potential, an advanced defensive metagame and disjointed hitboxes. Those are his strengths. Size is only one thing. Changing it would probably be detrimental to the game philosophy of BBrawl and there are other ways to fix him.
 

The_Altrox

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I think DDD should recieve a few minor buffs. Why?
Taking away the chaingrab was a smart move, but a crippling blow to DDD. It does even out some matchups now, but what about the characters who were even to DDD to begin with? Take Lucario. DDD boards say it's a 50:50 matchup even though Lucario couldn't be chained. However, Lucario got buffed and DDD didn't, so now Lucario dominates in a once evenish match-up. there could be other characters too who are like that. So I suggest DDD get some minor buffs. Nothing major, just something to make up for lost ground.
 

PKNintendo

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Specifically reduce the ending lag of PK Fire. Make F-smash either less laggy, more damaging on shields, or both.

PK Fire is Ness's most powerful setup, but generally not viable in high level play by virtue of horrible startup and ending lag. Ness's F-smash...is just generally a terrible move that can really can't do much of anything unless the opponent walks into it. Reducing the ending lag of course would be ideal, but increasing the shield damage would also help, since Ness is a character who would appreciate his moves having a greater chance of shield poking (specifically, this would help PK Fire and his F-air quite a bit).
Yeah... I'd be willing to part with all of the other buffs (throw damage buff, PK flash power buff etc) for those 2 buffs.

For PK fire, I'd say an acute reduce of the pk fire endlag would be good. I think it should be less laggy and slightly more damaging on shields. (It barely pokes Shields!)
 

Mikeomak

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I think DDD is already a solid, well rounded character. Even his bad matchups are winnable and arent too dreadful. I agree with The Altrox but how could you do that wihtout making him too good?
 

Linkshot

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Looooooooool

D3 is a terrible matchup for Lucario. Actually, I take that back.

It's Lucario's worst.

Lucario gets chained like a *****. He has no approach options (Waddles and fTilt cancel everything), and he gets gimped sooooo hard by bAir.

IMO, Lucario didn't need buffs, but they're appreciated, and I want to see how they pan out first XDD
 

The_Altrox

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Looooooooool

D3 is a terrible matchup for Lucario. Actually, I take that back.

It's Lucario's worst.

Lucario gets chained like a *****. He has no approach options (Waddles and fTilt cancel everything), and he gets gimped sooooo hard by bAir.

IMO, Lucario didn't need buffs, but they're appreciated, and I want to see how they pan out first XDD
weird... I could never chain him before... either way, 60:40 isn't a terrible matchup for Lucario. Even outside of that, I think DDD should recieve a few minor buffs, but nothing extreme.
 

IrohDW

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Yeah, assuming Snake's weight can be toned down a little bit, that would probably be ideal. Switching his weight with Ganon's would make sense.

That seems to be unlikely, which means the only other solutions are reducing his damage output more, or just making everyone a lot lot better.

And either way, his D-throw does need to be toned down for just being a stupidly good techchase that ***** certain matchups too hard, and then you compensate by making his other throws slightly more rewarding.
I couldn't agree more. It never made sense to me that ganon, who is taller and slower than snake and wears full body armor has less weight than him. Their weights should definitely be switched.
 

IrohDW

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Yeah, assuming Snake's weight can be toned down a little bit, that would probably be ideal. Switching his weight with Ganon's would make sense.

That seems to be unlikely, which means the only other solutions are reducing his damage output more, or just making everyone a lot lot better.

And either way, his D-throw does need to be toned down for just being a stupidly good techchase that ***** certain matchups too hard, and then you compensate by making his other throws slightly more rewarding.
I couldn't agree more. It never made sense to me that ganon, who is taller and slower than snake and wears full body armor has less weight than him. Their weights should definitely be switched.
 

JOE!

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Size is only one attribute, worthless in analysis without consideration to attack speed, pressure, recovery, etc. You'd push your point better by saying that Snake has great matchups across the board, great zoning, massive KO power, and that a weight reduction would compensate those advantages. ...Rather then focusing on just size as justification. The game is riddled with exceptions to the rules.

I don't know how much weight plays into being hit/trajectory/etc, but that might be a significant gameplay change BBrawl doesn't want. And then it'd need testing to make sure some weird physics don't occur as a result. But then it's possible some attack changes could fix the character just the same. I'm not trying to shut you down or anything, it's just that you've made your suggestion and it's up to the Duo to figure out what, if anything, they wanna do.
Weight only applies to how far one is launched compared to another character, that's about it. As of now, Snake has the weight comparable to the 2 heaviest fighters, but is only about 2/5ths their size. Put that on top of his impressive offensive and defensive capabilities, and you have a character that wins Matches because you cannot kill him, instead of you just outplaying him.

Why do you think Ally lives rediculously long with snake? He is so heavy, yet has a disproportionate hitbox, along with means of recovery with super-armor and hitboxes that extend much farther than they should. If he were made lighter his super-armor recovery (dont mention the grab releases or such, only bad snakes fall for it) and massive hitboxes wouldnt be as much of a problem, as everyone could kill him easier to compensate. Hell, I think some of his MU's in vBrawl are decidedly a bit mroe in his favor specifically because of how hard he is to kill.

As I said, size isn't really the problem. Snake is a great character with great moves, KO potential, an advanced defensive metagame and disjointed hitboxes. Those are his strengths. Size is only one thing. Changing it would probably be detrimental to the game philosophy of BBrawl and there are other ways to fix him.
how would changing his wieght be detrimental? It would allow snake to DI out of more moves than before, but allow people to overcome the hurdle that is finishing off solid snake. If anything the ability to smash Di better at lower %'s should mean he has a slightly better defense, as not getting hit is better than just shrugging a blow off.


EDIT:

also...Yoshi? <.<
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Do you not think Snake carrying that ridiculous supply of grenades and c4 adds a few pounds? Either way, it's a kinda silly point. If I were designing the game from the ground up, Snake would not be heavier than King Dedede and Charizard (neither would Ganondorf). However, I'm not designing the game from the ground up, and changing it probably has more downsides than upsides.

I kinda don't want to get carried away with a long post again since I've mostly said how I see things, but there are important points I think some people are missing.

Peach's fthrow is a "back up" kill move, not a real one. I don't understand why it should be a real kill move; killing throws are a special thing in Brawl Peach definitely does not deserve (in standard Brawl, Ness and Olimar are the only two with really good ones while Squirtle, Charizard, and Lucas have decent ones). I definitely couldn't care less how powerful Peach's fthrow was in Melee, just in case anyone wants to consider that.

The way Peach's fthrow is optimally used for killing is similar to how Samus should be using dash attack or R.O.B. should be using uthrow. You don't actually want to use these moves for killing moves. Rather, they're much easier to land than your "real" kill moves, and if the opponent stalls you out and forces you to merely rack damage for too long, they eventually seal the deal. The buff has this role in mind. It does not actually add a real kill move to Peach's arsenal (it would be a ridiculous addition that would obsolete all of her other kill options since grab -> fthrow is far and away easier to land than her current kill moves). It rather just lowers the damage to which an opponent who is successfully avoiding Peach's real kill moves can expect to survive. Your main goal with Peach should be to land those other kill moves at earlier percentages. The fthrow is just there to make it less horrible for the situations in which you can't.

Ness is so misunderstood. Fsmash this fsmash that like it's a core Ness move? Pk Fire as one of Ness's primary moves for that matter? Ness's most important five moves are his five aerials; all of them are good (fair in particular is just super good). His next most important move is Pk Thunder. I'm not sure how you classify it in terms of moves, but Ness relies on his grab game more than anything else for grounded combat.

Let's just look at Ness's aerials, honestly. Nair has surprisingly decent hitboxes (don't be fooled by the uninspiring animation) and is all around really fast. Anyone who has ever played an actually good Ness should know what I'm talking about; Ness jumps back from the ledge with nair and he's legitimately hard to stop just because of how fast he gets the hit out and the hit is actually not low range/priority like you'd expect it to be (rather it's more like medium). Ness's bair hits very hard with both high damage and kill power, and it's decently quick even. The hitboxes (including the sweetspot!) extend through Ness's body; you don't need precise spacing to land this at all (rather, you just need to be vaguely near to land it). Uair is like the best of both those words for fighting opponents above. It's a great kill move, does good damage, has surprisingly good priority, is fast in terms of start-up, cooldown, and landing lag, and is really just flat out easy to land.

Ness's fair is a ridiculous move that comes out faster than most aerials and simultaneously has that crazy non-constant range and transcendent priority. If Ness does retreating fair, I think literally the only character in the game who can outrange him with another aerial is Ike. I know he outranges G&W's turtle with that (which is G&W's longest range aerial). Note that Ness's air control is really good (specifically his acceleration which is what he needs to be unpredictable like this; his top speed is merely average) so he could make a neutral or advancing fair into a retreating one unexpectedly; the way fair works (and dash attack for that matter) is that it generates hitboxes that are the sparkles and they linger in one place for a while independent of where Ness moves. He generates a series of them, and if he moves in different ways while he does it they form different patterns and sometimes leave hitboxes very far from Ness. Fair is even pretty good if he does raw neutral jump it or advance it; it's still a fast, disjointed, transcendent attack.

Ness's dair is also an amazing move. Ness has above average mobility when he's jumping (and if you are Ness, why are you not jumping?). Ness's dair has much of the same advantage on hit as Ganondorf's. It is a ridiculous combo move when it hits a grounded opponent, it's a safe move, and off-stage it kills at around 30% as a meteor (highest base knockback out of any meteor in the game). Maybe you have to play an actually good Ness to appreciate this move, but it's just really, really good. It's really not that hard to land and especially not risky to attempt to land, and the advantages for landing it are really big. It is just a very skewed in Ness's favor move in terms of risk-reward.

For that matter, look at the general theme with his aerials. They're all fast. They're all safe. They all have at least decent hitboxes. When Ness is jumping around, Ness can use his aerials with impunity. This is exactly what Jigglypuff and Meta Knight do. Feel free to use aerial attacks with a liberal abandon because, if you end up getting hit, it will be because of bad positioning or something, not because your aerial was punished because your aerials aren't punishable. I remember laughing a bit to myself when talking to a friend of mine who mains Ness after seeing him make a few elementary mistakes playing as Marth. His excuse was that he wasn't used to having to be careful about using his aerials at appropriate times. This is the main good thing about Ness, and the nature of the constant commentary about him suggests a lack of understanding of this.

Pk Fire is a trickshot move. It's hard to land and not very safe to throw out. It sets up for stuff great on hit. You use it seldom and as a surprise mostly. Ness should not be relying on Pk Fire as a core of his strategy so much as, well, a trickshot. I don't see why we'd want to change Ness to make him reliant on it as such.

Fsmash has several uses and is not as horrible of a move as people think, but it's not really a core of Ness's game. In fact, it's a move to dissuade as much as anything. If Ness predicts his opponent doing something punishable (such as suffering lengthy landing lag from an aerial, something that Ness himself doesn't worry about!), Ness fsmashes it. Ness's fsmash hits really hard. It's like you failed to hit Ness with your one hit and he hit you with the power equivalent of three hits. Most people will just stop doing those things that let Ness land the fsmashes, and Ness will stop using fsmash. That's fine. Fsmash did its job. Now the opponent is using a more limited set of options. The point of Milk's video was largely showing off clever uses of the reflecting properties of fsmash too; I only would have to be killed by a reflected laser as R.O.B. once or twice before I'd have a little more respect for the move.

Making fsmash faster would totally change the nature of the move. Ness doesn't need it as a fast general purpose grounded attack. If he had a tool like that, it would completely change his nature as a character. If Ness wants to hit you with a fast KO move on the ground, he should use his ridiculous dash grab to land a bthrow.

This is far from a complete summary of all the good stuff Ness can do, but it's the real heart and soul of his game. I get a sense so much Ness commentary comes from perspectives that have never even played against a decent Ness; it's frustrating. It would be like reading Jigglypuff discussion about the need to buff her dtilt...
 

PKNintendo

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Adding a better Fsmash would be a better option. Now Ness isn't stuck up using his Backthrow.

PK fire as of now way riskier than I thought it would be. With reduced endlag, it would make the move safer to use. Ness gets badly punished from the move as it is. PK Fire would compliment with his damaging racking aerial nature as he can build damage at a higher profieciency.

You raise up good points AA, but these buffs would do better than the OTHER buffs would.

As of now, my main problem with Ness is that he lacks defense. The Fsmash and PK fire would improve his defensive game and compliment his offensive one.
 

Sasha

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Adding a better Fsmash would be a better option. Now Ness isn't stuck up using his Backthrow.

PK fire as of now way riskier than I thought it would be. With reduced endlag, it would make the move safer to use. Ness gets badly punished from the move as it is. PK Fire would compliment with his damaging racking aerial nature as he can build damage at a higher profieciency.

You raise up good points AA, but these buffs would do better than the OTHER buffs would.

As of now, my main problem with Ness is that he lacks defense. The Fsmash and PK fire would improve his defensive game and compliment his offensive one.
...

Did you actually read any of AA's post? He responded to and countered everything you just said (besides maybe the lack of defensive options).

You don't make certain attacks better for the simple reason of making a character better. You could use the same reasoning to advocate making Falcon Punch have a hitbox the size of Final Destination. >.>

It seems to me that buffing these attacks for these reasons completely defies the entire purpose of BBrawl.
 

Meru.

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Peach's fthrow is a "back up" kill move, not a real one. I don't understand why it should be a real kill move; killing throws are a special thing in Brawl Peach definitely does not deserve (in standard Brawl, Ness and Olimar are the only two with really good ones while Squirtle, Charizard, and Lucas have decent ones). I definitely couldn't care less how powerful Peach's fthrow was in Melee, just in case anyone wants to consider that.

The way Peach's fthrow is optimally used for killing is similar to how Samus should be using dash attack or R.O.B. should be using uthrow. You don't actually want to use these moves for killing moves. Rather, they're much easier to land than your "real" kill moves, and if the opponent stalls you out and forces you to merely rack damage for too long, they eventually seal the deal. The buff has this role in mind. It does not actually add a real kill move to Peach's arsenal (it would be a ridiculous addition that would obsolete all of her other kill options since grab -> fthrow is far and away easier to land than her current kill moves). It rather just lowers the damage to which an opponent who is successfully avoiding Peach's real kill moves can expect to survive. Your main goal with Peach should be to land those other kill moves at earlier percentages. The fthrow is just there to make it less horrible for the situations in which you can't.
Oh oh oh, here you went wrong. There is just no way that Peach's grab is easier to land than any of her aerials. No no no... Her grab is quite good as I said, but it's not comparable to her aerials. Her aerials are MUCH easier to land.

Also, to be honest, I don't even consider Fthrow a kill move. Not a real one, not a fake one, not a back-up one. It just... doesn't kill. I'm better off killing with a stale aerials, they're stronger.

I'm not saying she should be buffed, I just don't agree with your points and reasons. I don't find the Fthrow buff useful at all, I barely notice the buff.


:053:
 

Eldiran

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Oh oh oh, here you went wrong. There is just no way that Peach's grab is easier to land than any of her aerials. No no no... Her grab is quite good as I said, but it's not comparable to her aerials. Her aerials are MUCH easier to land.

Also, to be honest, I don't even consider Fthrow a kill move. Not a real one, not a fake one, not a back-up one. It just... doesn't kill. I'm better off killing with a stale aerials, they're stronger.

I'm not saying she should be buffed, I just don't agree with your points and reasons. I don't find the Fthrow buff useful at all, I barely notice the buff.


:053:
It actually isn't as bad as you're making it out to be... it's basically meant to kill when you're facing the edge against an opponent with 150+%. Which isn't anything special, but it's still useful. I know I've noticed it, even though I'm not a Peach main.
 

PKNintendo

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...

Did you actually read any of AA's post? He responded to and countered everything you just said (besides maybe the lack of defensive options).

You don't make certain attacks better for the simple reason of making a character better. You could use the same reasoning to advocate making Falcon Punch have a hitbox the size of Final Destination. >.>

It seems to me that buffing these attacks for these reasons completely defies the entire purpose of BBrawl.
He raised some good points and I think I digressed but... Ness lacks a defensive game.
At the moment those buffs would be preferable to his current ones.
 

A2ZOMG

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AA, I find it silly that you actually think Ness's aerials are all good. Most of them are mediocre, while his F-air is slightly above average at best.

Ness's U-air is a terrible move that you should almost never be landing due to its bad range and Ness's sucky physics in general. And it has VERY significant cooldown in the air. You can't juggle bait crap with this move. I should also say, Ness's U-throw is one of the worst U-throws in the game too, since Ness generally really doesn't have the tools to consistently juggle much of anything.

D-air should never actually hit anyone for the most part, and has no horizontal range.

B-air has no range and doesn't come out very fast, and even requires a sweetspot. 10 frames is pretty slow for an attack with no range.

I don't care that N-air has "priority". It still has no range, and it's slower than the 3 frame N-airs that are better gtfo moves.

Ness's only decent aerial is F-air, and that is ENTIRELY outclassed as a poke and spacer when you compare it to the faster, less committed, better ranged, and safer stuff that MANY MANY characters have. If you know what you're doing with any character, just attack him while he F-airs, and you'll trade hits (or beat him), and outdamage him. Ness loses.

Ness is just generally a character with horrible bases. His speed is poor in conjunction with his non-existent range. The only thing that's good about him is a reliable KO move, but his damage racking REALLY SUCKS just because virtually everyone is better and more consistent at it. He's like a moderately less bad version of Zelda for the most part.
 

JOE!

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Can Yoshi jump out of shield now? That could help...
ive never understood the allure of jumping out of shield...

and what would yoshi then do after it, as he is catapulted halfway across the stage by the nature of his airspeed?

anywho, as it stands he needs a way to setup a kill. His KO moves are solid when they hit, but it's a ***** to get them to hit...
 

Lokee

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Maybe something similar to the presuggested Nair setup Buffs for Sonic and Lucas could help Yoshi. Of course it could be something other than Nair. As Im not fluent in Yoshi, are there any moves that you would suggest?

Also for Ness it there "ANY" way of making it so PK fire actives on any shield contact and causes at least some kind of stun? I fiqure if it actives on more occasions then it can see more use.
 

JOE!

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just bringing up something about snake's weght and recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQzwPp-B-Hc

starting at about 0:18. it's rediculous....


anywho, as for Yoshi I wouldnt mind seeing the sweetspot of Nair buffed either angle-wise or just plain power-wise to give a quicker offstage power-option other than uair.

and as for Uair, perhaps tack on an extra % or two, it is rather hard to hit and it's one of yoshi's only "good" kill options.

everything else is fine
 

Mr. Escalator

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Ness' aerials are all great. Don't listen to A2ZOMG's lies.
Snake doesn't need weight change. Why would any of you even consider this? Read the BBrawl mission statement.

Lastly, I want to bring up a Snake nerf that I have been thinking about that adds more depth into all of his matchups, while only removing small, situational depth he gets from having it. What I'm talking about is removing his ability to cancel his grenade's momentum as well as removing his ability to force grenade drops by pulling another. To be frank, the main use of this is rare, though it does have some utility in stopping MK's planking (which, by the sounds of it, there will be universal ledge rules being considered for this). Removing it adds the ability for the rest of the cast to involve themselves in some grenade play, much like how you fight Diddy, by using his nanerz against him.

This isn't a drastic nerf in the least. It's leaning more on a 'buff everyone else versus him a minuscule amount' which makes him slightly worse by association. Like I noted, it really does add more depth into all of his matchups, though it affects some more than others. IDK, it sounds like a good change to me. Think hot potato! Fun, right? Nerfing his Dthrow just seems like a bland change.
 

dansal

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No, do the weight change instead. As long as his mobility stays the same, at least.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Peach's aerials generally only kill if she can drag you off-stage with them (not implausible but not easy for Peach either), other than fair which is a real kill move. Most people I've seen play positioning games against Peach pretty much for the entire purpose of making that fair hard to land. I know I don't get hit by it often for sure. Grab, on the other hand, is something that's pretty unreasonable to position to avoid. She can shieldgrab stuff or just run in and grab at all sorts of things with her good dash grab.

In general, ignoring things like bombs, here's what I see out of Peach and killing. She really, really wants to land a sweetspot usmash; that kills really low. However, she seldom will because that's really hard to land against anyone who knows it exists (anyone good). Fsmash is a little lower on the totem pole. It's easier to land than sweetspot usmash, but it's still pretty hard to land and not as powerful. She mixes it in when she gets openings, but it still isn't her most common kill move at all. Her main kill move is probably fair. This hits quite hard and isn't really that hard to land. It's not really that fast, but she can use floating and such to make it much easier to land than it would be if it were a move on another character. However, it's still her hardest aerial to land (much harder to smack them with fair than to just drill into their heads with "never going to kill but sure could do a ton of damage" dairs all day). She can rely on it, but she can't expect it to be a 100% solution to her killing quest. She can once in a great while get utilt kills too, but it's not really a good kill move on any parameter. She sometimes uses nair and bair near edges or even off-stage to kill at higher percentages or set up for gimps, but that too is something the opponent has some real potential to play around such that the situations don't really come up to go for it.

Out of this patchwork, a skilled Peach can usually kill at a decent percentage (even if, on average, she doesn't do as well as the other characters at killing early), but sometimes the opponent is just obstinate and won't get hit by anything fatal. The number I saw thrown out was 180% for fthrow killing. I don't remember the real number, but let's go with 180%. It sounds useless, but people do in fact survive to 180% against Peach. Ideally for Peach they won't, but it happens sometimes. In the situations in which the opponent did get up to that 180%, Peach has two options. She can keep trying to land the stuff that would have killed earlier, and maybe she hits but maybe she still doesn't hit and the opponent survives to 230% (which is a lot worse than 180% for Peach). She can also grab to fthrow to kill now though, and especially against the opponents who weren't getting hit by those fairs, that will be much easier to land. Peach shouldn't be excited over that fthrow kill since, after all, she had to wait to 180% to kill. However, having that option there to put in the ceiling beyond which it's very, very hard to continue to evade death against Peach is pretty valuable to her I think. We've had playtesting show this work out basically like I'm describing. It's not glamorous, and an optimist would probably not think it important (since you plan on succeeding in landing those better kill moves!).
 

PKNintendo

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AA, I find it silly that you actually think Ness's aerials are all good. Most of them are mediocre, while his F-air is slightly above average at best.

Ness's U-air is a terrible move that you should almost never be landing due to its bad range and Ness's sucky physics in general. And it has VERY significant cooldown in the air. You can't juggle bait crap with this move. I should also say, Ness's U-throw is one of the worst U-throws in the game too, since Ness generally really doesn't have the tools to consistently juggle much of anything.

D-air should never actually hit anyone for the most part, and has no horizontal range.

B-air has no range and doesn't come out very fast, and even requires a sweetspot. 10 frames is pretty slow for an attack with no range.

I don't care that N-air has "priority". It still has no range, and it's slower than the 3 frame N-airs that are better gtfo moves.

Ness's only decent aerial is F-air, and that is ENTIRELY outclassed as a poke and spacer when you compare it to the faster, less committed, better ranged, and safer stuff that MANY MANY characters have. If you know what you're doing with any character, just attack him while he F-airs, and you'll trade hits (or beat him), and outdamage him. Ness loses.

Ness is just generally a character with horrible bases. His speed is poor in conjunction with his non-existent range. The only thing that's good about him is a reliable KO move, but his damage racking REALLY SUCKS just because virtually everyone is better and more consistent at it. He's like a moderately less bad version of Zelda for the most part.

All thought it a bit harsh, he has a point. Ness' aerials aren't THAT awesome. Uair is kinda outclassed by wario's in nearly everyway. I suggest removing end lag. Adding kill power would be redundant since Ness is fine at KOing.

I think Ness dair is fine the way it is, but I wouldn't mind what you would say to changing it.

Ness Nair is also okay, but I can see what you mean by the commited ot aerial thing. (FINALLY) Ness would do well to increase the startup. (Damage reduction to compensate?)

Of course, we can't just change things willy nilly. I suggest waiting a suitable time before trying any changes.
 

A2ZOMG

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ive never understood the allure of jumping out of shield...
Jumping out of shield is one of the most useful defensive tactics in the game by far due to what you can do while jumping.

When you jump, you can Up-smash, do aerials, DI, airdodge, Up-B. It has infinitely less commitment than any other out of shield tactic in this game.

Yoshi wouldn't be crippled by the inability to jump out of shield if his shieldgrab wasn't so ridiculously awful.

I think Ness dair is fine the way it is, but I wouldn't mind what you would say to changing it.
Ness's D-air isn't neccessarily a move that needs to be changed. Most characters have options that are not very good most of the time. More important is knowing how limitations affect what a character can do. I mean, I can write pages on why Ganon's D-air is also a completely unviable move that in serious competitive play, he should almost never be landing. I do land it every so often in most of my matches just because I know where its competitive limitations are, and I outthink my opponent to find opportunities to land it.

However, my matches are not representative of the highest level play and proper matchup knowledge on both sides, which is what we discuss when assessing how good characters are.

The way I think Ness can also be fixed is increasing his ability to damage shields (another buff to F-smash, which Mr. Escalator actually suggested a long time ago). His range and speed ratio is just so awful that he generally doesn't have very reliable methods of dealing damage before his opponent can block on reaction (assuming he does work past the fact they usually outrange him). An increased ability to shield poke would make his aerials all a lot more useful. Not to mention PK Fire.

And Mr Escalator, instead of just saying that everything I say is lies, make better arguments and observations. You're not a stupid person, and reading data and testing hitboxes is very easy to do.
 

PKNintendo

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How about this?

A Ness changelist:

* A change to his physics so he isn't so darned slow.
* His aerials are more damaging to shields.
Uair specifically has reduced endlag.
*Fsmash is more damaging to shields and has it's endlag reduced.
*PK fire has it's endlag reduced.

I feel that those changes would put Ness towards the right the step to getting better. But I can see if you guys may not want to change him now. One step at a time I say.
 

DtJ XeroXen

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Somebody go play Balanced Brawl with timers on.

It's so fun/broken. It reminds me of brawl minus except more broken. (Unless you guys happened to fix all the fun with timers)
 
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