Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ぱみゅ]

talking about Peach, just make +1 on Ftilt.
It's rather useless like it is right now (even if it's like her ground most ranged attack), it can't kill until at least 140 with no DI.
It may can help in many ways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm against physics changes. I'm only pointing out that Ness's physics are one of his character unique limitations. You don't have to be fast to be effective. Snake is the perfect example of this. Even though he's a slow character with horrible aerials, his specials, tilts, and grab game alone provide the setups, safe camping/poke options, and reliable KO moves he needs to be an effective character.

Also, I should point out. ROB's U-throw is leagues better than Peach's F-throw. Kills metaknight at like 126%. If you call this bad, Peach's F-throw doesn't kill at all.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yikes! I forgot about BBrawl's number 1 rule about preserving character uniqueness. What did you think of the other changes? Comments? Additions?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now the only physics change I do in fact support is reducing Snake's weight, because Snake's weight alone unbalances the game.

You have to be EXTREMELY strong to kill Snake before 150% reliably, and his nerfed U-tilt will generally kill most characters from around 130-140%, while any of his aerials if fresh are extremely dangerous if you're from 100-120%. See, and the thing is he's a much safer damage racker than most characters with his great shieldgrab and F-tilt alone, and that U-tilt of his is also pretty unfairly safe.

He's also unfairly hard to gimp for many characters just because his recovery goes far and his fall speed and airdodging are broken, so there's a lot of characters who just still lose to him because he's too good at outliving people and outdamaging them.

 

[Mikeomak]

Why dont we ask the Ness boards whaat they think, or have we already tried this/bad idea?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I remember there being a BBrawl topic for Ness (in the respective boards) a long time ago. I don't recall the Ness boards generally coming to this topic to give suggestions.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I don't feel like it broski. It's not my place to teach you the effect having great jumps and good aerial mobility has on your aerials, its something you gotta figure out yourself <3

Also, about Snake's weight. Not gonna happen. Period.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Funny, RocketPSience and I were BOTH discussing how Ness and Lucas have the worst double jumps in the game.

You can't bait, zone, or punish crap with those jumps. They are only useful for recovery at best.

Furthermore, Ness's aerial mobility isn't bad, but it's not close to godly. Which is what he would really need if he were to actually be a good character. Combined with the fact he can't actually rely on his double jump as a bait or zone tool, you have a terrible character.

Lucas at any rate is clearly better, as his mobility actually is above average, which gives him significantly better poke options. Lucas also has tools that are just plain better for pressure. His problem is a lack of reliable KO moves, the opposite of Ness who really can't rack damage in any consistent way, but consistent damage matters more by a very significant margin. This is why Zelda is considered bottom tier in standard Brawl.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

angle change to n-air sounds nice, I'm all for an angle change to Yoshi's f-throw and b-throw. Maybe make f-throw at least fire them straight forward almost.

Jumping out of shield would be decent I guess, but I'd rather get a better shield grab or perhaps the ability to ground-pound out of shield.

just bringing up something about snake's weght and recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQzwPp-B-Hc

starting at about 0:18. it's rediculous....


anywho, as for Yoshi I wouldnt mind seeing the sweetspot of Nair buffed either angle-wise or just plain power-wise to give a quicker offstage power-option other than uair.

and as for Uair, perhaps tack on an extra % or two, it is rather hard to hit and it's one of yoshi's only "good" kill options.

everything else is fine

 

[JOE!]

angle change to n-air sounds nice, I'm all for an angle change to Yoshi's f-throw and b-throw. Maybe make f-throw at least fire them straight forward almost.

Jumping out of shield would be decent I guess, but I'd rather get a better shield grab or perhaps the ability to ground-pound out of shield.

yeah, either a better move offstage than Uair, or the situational Dair (to footstool <3), or a change to his shieldgrab. Eitehr would be sooooooo groovy.


Also, A2, did you see that Vid I posted?

Not only is snake stupidly heavy for someone with his Ko potential (and as you said, only like Donkey Kong or Bowser can kill him prior to 150%), he has an insane recovery for someone his weight, ontop of the fact he doesnt sport a hurtbox equivalent to his weight.

look at the characters around him, DDD, Bowser, DK all have kinda crappy recoveries (DDD's is OK, but still meh...), and Charizard has wings and 2 buddies for backup...so he doesnt really count .

Snake's is leaps and bounds better, even better than Zard's in some instances, while having the standard weight advantage to boot, and often a better offensive and/or defensive game onstage. As it stands, his weight combined with his other attributes makes him as if we took BBrawl link, and gave him Toon Link's recovery. It's a strength that is honestly uncalled for and breaks some match-ups in his favor just for being snake.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I saw the video. Snake is just really stupid that way. In order to balance everyone else in relation to him, you have to make MANY more changes just because his weight, fall speed, and recovery distance are EXTREMELY stupid.

 

[Meru.]

@ AA: Maybe you're right, I haven't really played anyone good after all. I'll guess I will live with it.

BUT... I still disagree about her aerials. They are not hard to hit. I have played vBrawl against good players, so here I do have experience. Fair has crazy range. Bair has great range, hits on frame 5/6 and lasts long. Nair has hitboxes around her whole body, hits on frame 3 and lasts a long time. Uair has great vertical range, is fast, and if one airdodges, you can punish with a Nair/Bair. Dair doesn't kill but it's easy to hit. Not to mention a turnip can help if you still have problems setting up.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Oh, her aerials aren't hard to land, but fair is the only one that really kills and it's also the only one that's decently hard to land. That's my experience with Peach at least.

 

[PKNintendo]

I remember there being a BBrawl topic for Ness (in the respective boards) a long time ago. I don't recall the Ness boards generally coming to this topic to give suggestions.

Not many Ness main's play Bbrawl to be quite honest. Ah well.
I also support Snakes weight change but I can live without it.

 

[Mikeomak]

Not many Ness main's play Bbrawl to be quite honest. Ah well.
I also support Snakes weight change but I can live without it.

You don't have to play balance brawl to have ideas on ways to make Ness viable. Was just thinking that if you want to know the best way to make ness viable, why not ask the people who play him regularly?

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, I saw the video. Snake is just really stupid that way. In order to balance everyone else in relation to him, you have to make MANY more changes just because his weight, fall speed, and recovery distance are EXTREMELY stupid.

not so much the last 2, but the fact that he is a super-heavyweight WITH the recovery of a like middle-weight.

it's somewhat the same issue of Having Link with a good recovery.

 

[Lokee]

not so much the last 2, but the fact that he is a super-heavyweight WITH the recovery of a like middle-weight.

it's somewhat the same issue of Having Link with a good recovery.

You have a clear point and I myself would love to take away's survivability and I think everyone understands that Snake's design was a big flaw that went in his favor and considering his other good points (Tactical projectiles/Lowest Crawl "WTH"). However remember what we are here to do and that's to make the character's balanced with the least changes possible no matter how unfair the original design may seem.

I would say either focus on either making everyone more of a problem for Snake or make his Super Safe Options less rewarding if he really is that much of a problem for some chars. but remember the magic numbers 40/60 when thinking of that

 

[JOE!]

You have a clear point and I myself would love to take away's survivability and I think everyone understands that Snake's design was a big flaw that went in his favor and considering his other good points (Tactical projectiles/Lowest Crawl "WTH"). However remember what we are here to do and that's to make the character's balanced with the least changes possible no matter how unfair the original design may seem.

I would say either focus on either making everyone more of a problem for Snake or make his Super Safe Options less rewarding if he really is that much of a problem for some chars. but remember the magic numbers 40/60 when thinking of that

To balance snake, all you have to do is make him less of an unecessary tank. I mena, he has tremendous offensive potential, along with a great defensive game. That should be fine for a character, and is what 95% of his MUs are based upon.

However, the fact that he is so stupidly heavy, compared to all the other characters around him in size and weight class (really, he's heavier than DDD while being half the size) tilts MUs even more in his favor than is necesary.

Hell, one of the reasons he goes Even with MK in vBrawl is because he is so hard to kill, a trait only shared by Bowser and Dk vs MK, but their size / recovery tilt it a bit more in MK's favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake is able to also camp and his F-tilt, which is a viable poke, does 19% and can be Jab canceled into. And his D-throw is also stupid and broken in certain matchups.

For someone who can rack up damage in single hits as fast as he can, that's what makes his weight class incredibly broken. No other character in his weight class is nearly as good at doing as much damage as he can, and he also does it stupidly safely.

 

[JOE!]

the only problem i see with making him lighter is that he may see some matches go further against him than necesary.

in vbrawl, he had alot of neutralish matches.

in BBrawl, alot of his neutralish matches became disadventageous due to them being buffed and he being slightly nerfed, but the Mu's probably didnt change too drastically.

if he was made lighter, those MUs could be even worse as he is kiled sooner, but the only MU i see being problematic, and truly following this patter in vs Link, who even in vBrawl had a neutral MU with snake. In BBrawl he has much better KO moves and his arrows lol at Snake's recovery. If snake was made lighter, link may be something to fear for snakes.

 

[IrohDW]

What do you guys think of using this stage as an alternative to big blue? I think it would probably be more appropriate for a tournament setting than the original is.

@ Joe Doesn't balance by its very nature mean that every character has good and bad matchups? Regardless of whether his weight is changed or not Snake will still be a very viable character in tournament play, so I don't think that him having some bad matchups is a good enough reason to not make the change to his weight.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake's only unfavorable matchups are like...Marth, Samus, and Link in this game imo, who are able to camp or work past his camping well enough and outzone him. a few more characters go even, but the majority of his matchups are in his favor.

If there is one thing that DEFINITELY should be nerfed, it is D-throw. This move ***** too hard, particularly in certain matchups where it is easy for him to techchase.

 

[uhmuzing]

I just wanted to drop by and say something.
This and this are why I fiercely support this project. Keep at it, guys!

 

[A2ZOMG]

After realizing that Falco's D-throw sets up into a U-smash mixup at all percents...

More reason why I think Lucas should have his N-air set up into U-air.

 

[JOE!]

back on yoshi for 2 seconds, I belive Ive come up with what to do:

all he needs IMO are two things:

1) A stronger NAir, and/or slightly more damaging UAir. This move is rather effective for quite a few things, following a combo/string of moves, Edgegaurding (rising Nair to the edge is a silly manuever nobody sees, and follows the duration of his whole 2nd jump), and occasionally killing offstage with the sweetspot.

As of now, even the sweetspot does "meh" damage and KB for a move with a sweetspot, perhaps a slight damage, angle (preferably straight ahead or slightly downwards) or KB buff to the sweetspot could make it better in at least 2 of the uses, and give yoshi another option offstage to mix it up?

UAir is yoshi's best and worst KO move at the same time. It is very good in that Yoshi can nail someone with it higher up in the air, increasing it's power over Usmash, but unlike Usmash, it is a pain in the *** to land the killer sweetspot.

I propose a slight damage buff to the sweetspot of the move, 1-2% only, to just give it a little extra oomph when you land it. This also will help yoshi's damage game in that UAir is a common follow-up move and comboes into itself at low %'s

2) *Something* out of shield. As it stands, yoshi only really has Jab (or now Dsmash presumably...) to try out of shield. A simple speeding up of his shield-grab or something would work wonders, as even though it is unique for his character to have the weird shield, his shieldgrab is just too "bleh" for a ranged grab character.

Either that, or shave off the ending lag of getting out of his shield.

thoughts?

 

[Mit]

Doesn't Yoshi's nair already kill at high percents? And come out very, very fast? I feel like it's already good enough when considering Yoshi's other strengths. Same with uair. Dsmash buff was significant, usmash has super armor and is a good KO move, and even his fsmash is good when spaced well and used with Yoshi's sliding. There are more than a few characters who would kill for so many fairly reliable KO options.

I support doing something about his shield, though. I don't know about straight up making jumping OoS possible (he's gotta have some kind of disadvantage to having a shield that can't be poked), but something should probably be considered that's balanced with not being able to OoS, because not being able to be poked isn't quite balanced with that.

 

[JOE!]

Doesn't Yoshi's nair already kill at high percents? And come out very, very fast? I feel like it's already good enough when considering Yoshi's other strengths. Same with uair. Dsmash buff was significant, usmash has super armor and is a good KO move, and even his fsmash is good when spaced well and used with Yoshi's sliding. There are more than a few characters who would kill for so many fairly reliable KO options.

I suggested buffing his aerial kills in light of a shield change being not plausible, or just not part of the project in terms of character uniquness.

I support doing something about his shield, though. I don't know about straight up making jumping OoS possible (he's gotta have some kind of disadvantage to having a shield that can't be poked), but something should probably be considered that's balanced with not being able to OoS, because not being able to be poked isn't quite balanced with that.

jumping OoS would require the lag of dropping his shield to be gone, and I think thats about it...

I think just having rather limited options OoS is balance enough for not being poked, but I would gladly take a speed-up to his shield grab. As it stands he has limited enough options allready, and can deal with pressure via the weird super-roll dodge after shielding. The worst shieldgrab IMO shouldnt be tacked onto a guy who can only jab or roll to compensate for an unpokeable shield

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Some characters already have sheilds that are nearly impossible to poke. :/

I think you tried to fix Yoshi's sheild you'd be making too drastic of a change IMO. You should probably just concentrate on his mediocre camp game and his appraoch killers.

 

[JOE!]

focusing on the camp game would mean buffing eggs to do like 12% vs 8%

anything other than a KB/dam buff would mess with his recovery-thing he gets from it methinks.

as for his shield, it *is* impossible to poke, but the disadvantages associated with the release lag from it outweigh that currently

 

[rPSIvysaur]

focusing on the camp game would mean buffing eggs to do like 12% vs 8%

Yeah, buffing eggs can't really hurt too much in that manner. There not by any standards as spammable as Falco's laser. And Lucas' Side-b does 12 from doing 8 damage. I see no reason why Eggs shouldn't do 12.

 

[Mit]

Pretty sure eggs are a helluva lot easier to land than Lucas' side-b, and have some special properties to them that can make avoiding them difficult at times O_o 8% is still pretty significant for a projectile such as those eggs.

 

[PKNintendo]

After realizing that Falco's D-throw sets up into a U-smash mixup at all percents...

More reason why I think Lucas should have his N-air set up into U-air.

And people call you a troll.
That's a good idea mate.

(I can't believe I thought you were biased. **** it.

 

[JOE!]

And people call you a troll.
That's a good idea mate.

(I can't believe I thought you were biased. **** it.

he's not biased as much as just overly technical.

as for the egg toss, Mit, off-stage is where it becomes scary.

I dont think any other projectile can be spammed as effectivley as Yoshi's egg to a recovering or aerial opponent

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Yoshi's Egg toss is good at being annoying offstage, but I should point out, it doesn't really stop people from recovering.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, Yoshi's Egg toss is good at being annoying offstage, but I should point out, it doesn't really stop people from recovering.

i didnt say it stopped recoveries, I meant that it can rack silly damage without one noticing if you are on stage lobbing them at an off-stage opponent, and even set-up for an aerial.

hell, just getting hit 3 times off-stage means you just took over 20%

 

[A2ZOMG]

True enough, now get the kill. =P

And...you probably don't want to Egg Toss say, Link or Ganon offstage, since that is counterproductive.

 

[JOE!]

True enough, now get the kill. =P

And...you probably don't want to Egg Toss say, Link or Ganon offstage, since that is counterproductive.

Egg toss-> they react

in the meantime, you are plummeting down with yoshi's dair-o-death, then footstool

95% of the cast wont make it

 

[Lokee]

Merry Christmas Guys!!! Woot!!

 

[GwJ]

Egg toss-> they react

in the meantime, you are plummeting down with yoshi's dair-o-death, then footstool

95% of the cast wont make it

Then there's ROB.

<3 that guy

 

[JOE!]

yeah, he's part of the 5%....