Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Eldiran]

EDIT: Oh, and some custom music. Although, I would lean more towards switching songs around among stages, like trading some of Rumble Falls' excellent music with Jungle Japes' subpar music (Bramble Blast >>>>>> DK Rap).

Just make sure that rather than switching the songs in My Music, you are merely replacing the music using File Replacement. (Switching songs in My Music causes desynchs in online play for no good reason.)

Although I think before we organize custom textures (at least before in priority for spicing things up), we should throw in some SSE stages.

 

[Mit]

Just make sure that rather than switching the songs in My Music, you are merely replacing the music using File Replacement. (Switching songs in My Music causes desynchs in online play for no good reason.)

Although I think before we organize custom textures (at least before in priority for spicing things up), we should throw in some SSE stages.

Don't they do song switching for Wifi Training's NES song? Does that cause desynchs? (wouldn't know, haven't tried BBrawl online before)

Custom stages is also a high priority for me as well. Although there aren't too many I'd recommend. Definitely the edited Jungle SSE stage that Brawl+ has (which has more restricted stage boundaries so they aren't so huge), and another I can dig up from one of the threads that someone made and applied heavy editing to.

Otherwise, many of them would still need to be edited for tourney play. Most of them have gigantic stage boundaries that make them quite annoying.

I say make sure it's done using Phantom Wings' method where you can have custom Stage Select screen icons as well. Just to make it easier. Oh, and a Wifi icon for Hanenbow with a Wifi picture/name logo on the left as well I believe all of that's possible.


This sounds like it's turning into a lot of work, but this is the kind of thing I think the community could help with to lighten the load on the BBrawl developers (gathering codes and textures and whatnot), and I think it'd definitely help BBrawl get some more exposure. There also shouldn't be TOO much work to be done by the BBrawl developers for the next version, as from feedback received, it doesn't sound like there are too many major edits to be done to characters.

 

[PKNintendo]

Speaking of Link though, let's go a somewhat different direction. Has anyone been using Toon Link? From what I've seen, he's still good and in some ways empowered by the greater diversity (and his greater reliability on smashes), but it's hard to say since he's definitely far less popular than his twilight self (and most people seem to think he's a worse character too).

I will actually slap anyone in the face who think that. Tink>Link in all iterations of Brawl.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

True, gay is probably better than Link, but not by much now.

What do you guys thinking about adding falcon destination?

 

[Eldiran]

Don't they do song switching for Wifi Training's NES song? Does that cause desynchs? (wouldn't know, haven't tried BBrawl online before)

Custom stages is also a high priority for me as well. Although there aren't too many I'd recommend. Definitely the edited Jungle SSE stage that Brawl+ has (which has more restricted stage boundaries so they aren't so huge), and another I can dig up from one of the threads that someone made and applied heavy editing to.

Otherwise, many of them would still need to be edited for tourney play. Most of them have gigantic stage boundaries that make them quite annoying.

I say make sure it's done using Phantom Wings' method where you can have custom Stage Select screen icons as well. Just to make it easier. Oh, and a Wifi icon for Hanenbow with a Wifi picture/name logo on the left as well I believe all of that's possible.

This sounds like it's turning into a lot of work, but this is the kind of thing I think the community could help with to lighten the load on the BBrawl developers (gathering codes and textures and whatnot), and I think it'd definitely help BBrawl get some more exposure. There also shouldn't be TOO much work to be done by the BBrawl developers for the next version, as from feedback received, it doesn't sound like there are too many major edits to be done to characters.

I'm not certain -- I actually never used that code. All I know is the one time I BBrawled online, we desynched because I had swapped songs in My Music.

As for SSE stages... you may want to check them again, as just today Eternal Yoshi posted some fixed stages with better spawn points/stage boundaries. They may or may not be acceptable. I'm sure at least some of them are though.

Here's the thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254125&page=3

I could help with recommending some nice textures and stages if necessary.

 

[Mit]

True, gay is probably better than Link, but not by much now.

What do you guys thinking about adding falcon destination?

I'm thinking no, especially with those ledges. That, and it's basically a more boring-looking Final Destination. In general I would discourage new stages that are just like old stages, and encourage new stages that offer up some kind of new design to the typical tourney-set of stages, such as:

(left side is walkoff, right side is cliff)

(one of the more unique Shadow Bug stages)

It looks like Eternal Yoshi has actually done a lot of blast zone editing. All of the examples I just posted have been edited and can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254125&page=7 except the Jungle stage. I'm not sure where the edited file for that can be located.

EDIT: Yeah, looks like Eldiran pointed out Eternal Yoshi's edited stages.

I still would like to know how AA and Think feel about a texture pack. Guess I'll have to wait for one of them to be available, and hope they see my posts D:

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Link doesn't get gimped really early, I think he's better than TL. TL's recovery isn't that outstanding anyway.

Mainly just cause of Z-air, which gives him the superior zoning option (not to mention it combos into stuff better than TL's due to Link's longer range).

D-tilt is a safe KO move, and apparently so is 2nd hit of F-smash (on block). So he wins in terms of safe KO options.

Arrows increased knockback means more opportunity to ledge trap for Link, which means more opportunity to D-air the **** out of people too.

 

[Laos Oman]

I still would like to know how AA and Think feel about a texture pack. Guess I'll have to wait for one of them to be available, and hope they see my posts D:

As long as it's optional. Some people, myself included, prefer the default outfits.

 

[Mit]

As long as it's optional. Some people, myself included, prefer the default outfits.

Definitely. Although, if it were all classy outfits that didn't replace every single costume in the entire game, I think you'd still try it I'm kind of like you. I hate the majority of textures out there, but I really like some of the high quality ones that fit in well with the game and add some nice variety to some characters in the game.


Also, agreed with A2ZOMG. I think BBrawl Link very well may be a beast. Definitely not instantly apparent to those who haven't seen experienced Link mains play, but I know I would be terrified to fight some of the best Link mains out there in BBrawl. I know it wouldn't end well for me.

I do know it'd end quickly though D:

 

[deepseadiva]

Would the SSE stages be included for "funsies" or for actual tournament use...?

 

[Mit]

Would the SSE stages be included for "funsies" or for actual tournament use...?

Perhaps funsies for the next version of BBrawl, and then through playtesting they could be considered for actual tournament use?

I do believe, however, Brawl+ has officially added the Jungle stage to their stage roster. I could be wrong about that, though.


Also, regardless, even if all of this doesn't go through, I'm gonna do it all on my own anyways for my own sake, as I do want a nice, relatively large set of textures, music changes, and a custom title screen So, if it doesn't get approved for the next release, get in touch with me.

 

[Eyada]

Whatever is done, please do not add another version of Final Destination. As things are now it's at least possible to ban FD and just camp the platform on Smashville; adding a FD clone will remove the ability to avoid the FD counterpick. (Which is bad news for characters with already tenuous match-ups vs Diddy or IC's.)

Some of those other levels look good though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

File replacement wasn't in the default BBrawl codeset because of the custom .pac's.

Bassically, without it a TO can run the entire tournament with only one SD card, and he can be confident of what codes were used.
But, with File Replacement you'll got 2 cons: first, that each console will need their own SD; and that it can read .pac's, that anyone can edit to make slight but significant changes to their characters to cheat on a tournament.

That's it. =P (I'm pretty sure AA said that by himself)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Despite the disadvantages, we are likely switching to a file replacement model for the next release. Of course, we really need to either figure out ourselves or have the fortune of someone else figuring out what the deal with Nana's hitboxes is; a switch is not going to work without being able to get rid of things like the hitbox mod engine altogether (particularly, I'd like to lose the animation speed mod engine and thus fix the freezing issues with final smashes).

A secondary thing that would be really, really nice would be if stage .pac editing caught up with character .pac editing. We can probably change all the death boundaries via file replacement and remove that code already, but the speed changes (which currently cause a nasty Rumble Falls bug and an unimportant Halberd bug) would be nice to be able to get out of the .gct as well. Of course, stage hazard editing would be the pinnacle; if we could change some hitbox properties, well, we'd see some improvements! We intend to look into this in depth.

Thinkaman and I are going to be discussing SSE stages in-depth; however, I would like to make a few things clear. The first is that I consider the default multiplayer stages higher priority. That is, if I have the choice between adding a SSE stage or improving a default stage, I'm going to focus on improving the default stage every time. There's just no SSE stage with as much potential as Port Town Aero Dive, for instance.

The second thing I'm making clear is that the stages that are basically just different graphics versions of Final Destination have no place in Balanced Brawl. If we do decide to bring in SSE stages, they are going to have to offer something that none of the current stages offer. We are also going to have to test any stages we decide to go for in-depth for balance implications. I am absolutely confident in my ability to assess character-stage balance among the 42 default stages (like I can tell you how the balance changes with a rebalanced version of Flat Zone 2 added to the CPs, for instance), but the SSE stages are something new that are going to require a lot of research. They're promising, but they are not prioirty #1 or indeed priority #10 and are a lot of work to fit into the design. Expect to hear more about them in the future.

 

[Mit]

File replacement wasn't in the default BBrawl codeset because of the custom .pac's.

Bassically, without it a TO can run the entire tournament with only one SD card, and he can be confident of what codes were used.
But, with File Replacement you'll got 2 cons: first, that each console will need their own SD; and that it can read .pac's, that anyone can edit to make slight but significant changes to their characters to cheat on a tournament.

That's it. =P (I'm pretty sure AA said that by himself)

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not saying this should replace a default, no-frills pack. The default codeset should always be no frills for all of the reasons you just stated.

I'm just saying have this as an optional download, just like the codeset with File Replacement that is available now.

Despite the disadvantages, we are likely switching to a file replacement model for the next release. Of course, we really need to either figure out ourselves or have the fortune of someone else figuring out what the deal with Nana's hitboxes is; a switch is not going to work without being able to get rid of things like the hitbox mod engine altogether (particularly, I'd like to lose the animation speed mod engine and thus fix the freezing issues with final smashes).

A secondary thing that would be really, really nice would be if stage .pac editing caught up with character .pac editing. We can probably change all the death boundaries via file replacement and remove that code already, but the speed changes (which currently cause a nasty Rumble Falls bug and an unimportant Halberd bug) would be nice to be able to get out of the .gct as well. Of course, stage hazard editing would be the pinnacle; if we could change some hitbox properties, well, we'd see some improvements! We intend to look into this in depth.

Thinkaman and I are going to be discussing SSE stages in-depth; however, I would like to make a few things clear. The first is that I consider the default multiplayer stages higher priority. That is, if I have the choice between adding a SSE stage or improving a default stage, I'm going to focus on improving the default stage every time. There's just no SSE stage with as much potential as Port Town Aero Dive, for instance.

The second thing I'm making clear is that the stages that are basically just different graphics versions of Final Destination have no place in Balanced Brawl. If we do decide to bring in SSE stages, they are going to have to offer something that none of the current stages offer. We are also going to have to test any stages we decide to go for in-depth for balance implications. I am absolutely confident in my ability to assess character-stage balance among the 42 default stages (like I can tell you how the balance changes with a rebalanced version of Flat Zone 2 added to the CPs, for instance), but the SSE stages are something new that are going to require a lot of research. They're promising, but they are not prioirty #1 or indeed priority #10 and are a lot of work to fit into the design. Expect to hear more about them in the future.

That'd be a tad disappointing to have to abandon the current model where we can temporarily put BBrawl on multiple Wiis, but I guess abandoning that for a greater cause wouldn't be too bad. Just means you need some more SD cards, which isn't that hard to achieve. Also, agreed on SSE stages coming after fixing other stages.

But what say you, Amazing Ampharos, to an official BBrawl texture pack? You could even release it with SSE stages for mass playtesting, but leave them out of the official, no frills release.

Although if you're gonna use File Replacement, I'd still recommend a custom title screen for all versions

 

[Eyada]

File replacement wasn't in the default BBrawl codeset because of the custom .pac's.

Bassically, without it a TO can run the entire tournament with only one SD card, and he can be confident of what codes were used.
But, with File Replacement you'll got 2 cons: first, that each console will need their own SD; and that it can read .pac's, that anyone can edit to make slight but significant changes to their characters to cheat on a tournament.

That's it. =P (I'm pretty sure AA said that by himself)

How difficult is it to detect or prevent unauthorized modifications?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I am aware of that disadvantage, and I take it seriously. It's not a closed issue for sure.

I haven't spoken to Thinkaman about official textures at all, but I think he will agree with what I'm about to say. It's just not in the scope of the project to endorse one set of textures over another or whatever.

I don't have any problem with a tasteful custom title screen, but I don't really have an interest in making such a thing myself for sure. That's another issue I haven't discussed with Thinkaman.

Clever cheating via abusing file replacement is pretty easy. We're definitely going to look into the implications of this model very carefully before our next release.

 

[ぱみゅ]

By either the TO bring every SD to be used (which would be a lame); or that everyone that brings a Wii on a tournament brings an empty SD, and the TO, with a computer, paste the whole content to use into them...
Both are pretty silly, but reliable...

 

[deepseadiva]

I'd be interested in whipping up a custom screen for BBrawl.

What would be the specifications (file type, dimensions, etc.)?

 

[Eldiran]

I'd be interested in whipping up a custom screen for BBrawl.

What would be the specifications (file type, dimensions, etc.)?

Before you spend effort making graphics, you should know the way Brawl displays its title screen is incredibly specific. You'll have to replace very specific aspects in the right ways. I don't exactly know how myself, but I wanted to warn you so you don't waste your time by accident.

 

[deepseadiva]

You mean it would be hard? D:

I might have to reconsider this.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A tittle screen is unnecessary.

If you'll add something for smoothing with File replacement, use something more silly like a custom CCS or an edit on the *security screen* (the one that says that you must use your Wiimote cord).



Not really, just kidding. =P

 

[Mit]

Before you spend effort making graphics, you should know the way Brawl displays its title screen is incredibly specific. You'll have to replace very specific aspects in the right ways. I don't exactly know how myself, but I wanted to warn you so you don't waste your time by accident.

It's really not too bad, it's just like texture hacking.

Are you familiar with BrawlBox, Meno? Here's the file you need to edit:
http://www.mediafire.com/?n5jwzdlgocj

Open it up in BrawlBox, export the files you want to edit. The title screen files are located in the last section of the .pac. There's other fun stuff to edit throughout the .pac though The menu .pngs are laid out a bit differently than you might think (as Eldiran may have been trying to imply), but they're just layered a bit.


If you want an example of an edited screen, here's a Brawl+ .pac and screenshot:

http://www.mediafire.com/?jnwi2kljmhm

When you're done, name it sc_title.pac, and place it in private/wii/app/RSBE/pfmenu2/sc_title.pac .


I've looked through it, and it really looks pretty simple. I just don't have any good ideas for a title screen.

 

[Eldiran]

Yeah, it's not super hard, but I'm pretty sure each part (like each chunk of words) must be edited and replaced separately. Also whether they can be positioned or enlarged isn't known to me.

 

[Mit]

Yeah, it's not super hard, but I'm pretty sure each part (like each chunk of words) must be edited and replaced separately. Also whether they can be positioned or enlarged isn't known to me.

Nah. I don't know, Meno seems to be a rather experienced graphic artist, I'm sure he'll figure it out. As far as the official logo goes on the screen, it's made up of a few different layers. All you have to do is make sure you create identical types of layers if you edit the shape of them. If you add to them, you don't even need to edit all the layers. That plus sign in the Brawl+ logo? He just pasted that onto the top layer. Didn't bother with any of the layers beneath.

And yeah I don't think you can resize, so you'd have to get creative and work within the sizes given. The Brawl+ .pac is a good example of this, as they took the "Brawl" part of the logo and scrunched it in toward the left a little bit. This required them to edit a couple more layers in addition to the main layer for it, but all you have to do is apply the same resizing to the other layers as you did the main layer.

Or hell, try and resize it and see what happens Never know until you try.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon needs these 3 buffs as well, I mean, a must:
Jab hits in frame 3 and ends, at latest, in frame 20 (he REALLY needs this, he should have a way to punish opponents for hitting his shield).
Halved landing lag in fair.
Wizard Kick gives back his 2nd jumps (to improve his recovery more, it sucks too much).

This are all the last changes he needs including the already made. I don't thing anything more than this needs to be changes.

 

[Alphatron]

When I made the Blue version of the Brawl+ Title screen, I had to shrink the word brawl a little bit. You can move stuff around, it just looks ugly. Unfortunately background effects can't be edited.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon needs these 3 buffs as well, I mean, a must:
Jab hits in frame 3 and ends, at latest, in frame 20 (he REALLY needs this, he should have a way to punish opponents for hitting his shield).
Halved landing lag in fair.
Wizard Kick gives back his 2nd jumps (to improve his recovery more, it sucks too much).

This are all the last changes he needs including the already made. I don't thing anything more than this needs to be changes.

Honestly frame 8 Jab, while it's slower than I'd like it to be, the startup is workable out of shield. Most attacks linger around the -20 to 25ish advantages, and considering the range of Ganon's Jab, it's decent out of shield.

The problem is it gets ROYALLY SCREWED by spotdodges, which indeed means that the ending lag must be addressed. Most spotdodges last 25 frames, and Ganon's Jab in fact...has 25 frames of ENDING LAG. Worst Jab in the game by far.

Personally me, I think it would be infinitely more practical to reduce the landing lag of his N-air because of Ganon's inability to safely hit anything below him.

Wizkick giving back midair jump is reeeeealy not going to help Ganon's recovery significantly...considering how far downwards it pulls him. It's comparable to the Melee Falcon Kick for recovery. You basically don't do it except to look cool. At best, midair jump renewal will improve his ability to edgeguard with it. That's all basically.

 

[Laos Oman]

File replacement wasn't in the default BBrawl codeset because of the custom .pac's.

Bassically, without it a TO can run the entire tournament with only one SD card, and he can be confident of what codes were used.
But, with File Replacement you'll got 2 cons: first, that each console will need their own SD; and that it can read .pac's, that anyone can edit to make slight but significant changes to their characters to cheat on a tournament.

That's it. =P (I'm pretty sure AA said that by himself)

So then what are the advantages of file replacement?

 

[darksamus77]

So then what are the advantages of file replacement?

Umm, clearly you've never enjoyed custom stages, music, or textures (as in, you can change costumes of any character in the game). You can also implement your own characters, stages, load Subspace stages, and change the song titles to match your custom songs.

 

[Mit]

Umm, clearly you've never enjoyed custom stages, music, or textures (as in, you can change costumes of any character in the game). You can also implement your own characters, stages, load Subspace stages, and change the song titles to match your custom songs.

Aaaand everything you just listed is not why the BBrawl developers would switch to file replacement.

It sounds like to further fix some problems with characters, mainly Ice Climbers. You can do a lot more with .pac replacement than you can with codes, so those further options will help even more with balancing issues.

Also, editing stage .pacs could very well be the ticket to really fixing some levels that weren't quite able to be fixed for the current BBrawl release.

 

[Alphatron]

I'm pretty sure that Ice Climber pac edits only affect Popo pretty much.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

And where do you think Nana's hitbox data is stored? Is it hardcoded into each Wii?

The current PSA methods fail to address Nana. However, Nana's data obviously exists the same way the articles do; we just need to find it. Either it's contained within the main .pac for Ice Climbers or it's in that "extra" character slot after Ice Climbers I would wager. The article exploration told us how hitboxes are stored in hex so we can find this data via hex editing if we have to.

Of course, it would be so nice if people figured out Ice Climbers for real and we were able to do it the "normal" way via PSA...

Also, it's not really because of ICs to make a conversion; ICs are just brought up because they're the biggest implementation hurdle. The real reason is that we want to actually fix some of these bugs that are impossible to fix otherwise (that ugly Lucas bug, Samus in boss battles, final smashes, timers), and a secondary reason is that we want to be able to edit the hitboxes on the most fundamental of level (the specific most useful tool this gives to us is the ability to alter shield damage on specific moves; I wanted to up it on Jigglypuff's dair as an example but Thinkaman said it would be too easy to make broken, more on that later).

Also, our ability to accomplish anything at all with stages is basically only on the file replacement model.

Lastly, I want to look into some of the bugs in standard Brawl relative to the character .pacs and think about fixes. Things like the way Dimensional Cape decides on duration may be changeable to remove IDC from the game, for instance. In a Bbrawl related one, I would want to edit Egg Roll so slamming into a wall to prematurely end the move doesn't restore Yoshi's double jump (there's an infinite under the stage stall enabled by this; ideally Yoshi's double jump is only restored on the completion of a full in the air execution of this move). I think those would make Bbrawl a more "clean" product and would definitely be within the scope of the project (making a version of Brawl very similar to the original that is just better).

 

[JOE!]

for the file replacement scenario, can't a TO simply use 1 SD card, and remove it once BBrawl was booted up on each wii to make sure nothing fishy happens?

 

[Linkshot]

File Replacement reads from the SD Card. Characters are loaded when you select them, and stages are loaded when you select the stage.

So nope.

Also, yes AA. I believe it is. You could always simply compare the data (Nana has different Attributes though, so use the Subactions as a comparison)

 

[uhmuzing]

Stupid question, but when I loaded BBrawl for the second time since I've purchased the SD Card I needed, my Wii Remote ceased functioning,, and I can't operate my Wii at all atm. Is it even remotely possible that this has something to do loading a hacked game? I don't see how it could be, but I'm perplexed at why this would happened? : )

 

[JOE!]

File Replacement reads from the SD Card. Characters are loaded when you select them, and stages are loaded when you select the stage.

So nope.

Also, yes AA. I believe it is. You could always simply compare the data (Nana has different Attributes though, so use the Subactions as a comparison)

so you would -need- an SD card per wii?

 

[Eldiran]

Stupid question, but when I loaded BBrawl for the second time since I've purchased the SD Card I needed, my Wii Remote ceased functioning,, and I can't operate my Wii at all atm. Is it even remotely possible that this has something to do loading a hacked game? I don't see how it could be, but I'm perplexed at why this would happened? : )

Nope, that's not possible to my knowledge.

so you would -need- an SD card per wii?

Yes, at least all the way until the match has actually started. And then you'd need to re-insert it after each match.

 

[Alphatron]

And where do you think Nana's hitbox data is stored? Is it hardcoded into each Wii?

The current PSA methods fail to address Nana. However, Nana's data obviously exists the same way the articles do; we just need to find it. Either it's contained within the main .pac for Ice Climbers or it's in that "extra" character slot after Ice Climbers I would wager. The article exploration told us how hitboxes are stored in hex so we can find this data via hex editing if we have to.

Of course, it would be so nice if people figured out Ice Climbers for real and we were able to do it the "normal" way via PSA....

Yeah, that's what I meant. Editing the pac with PSA only affects Popo. I apologize for being unable to present my points clearly.

I'd help with this but I flat out can't. Limited Wii use and next to no home computer use at all.

 

[Linkshot]

You'd also need to keep it in the whole match if you had custom music. (And I have a lot!)