Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ぱみゅ]

I didn't tell them what changes was made (nothing about nerfings or the "Diddy's level" thing), I only told them that they won't notice most of them while playing.
They didn't listened at all anyways. =P

-Linkshot: I thaught on your method.
It may can either work for them to like it or don't trust on me anymore....


Whatever... Lucario discussion?

 

[Linkshot]

I need more data.

And by that I need to get one real match in.

Which means I need to move in with AA D:

 

[rPSIvysaur]

A "more dirty way" of doing it is popping in bBrawl and not telling anybody for the whole night >.>

lol... I did this for scrubs at my school. They were like, oh you're playing with visual hax right? Ok, just as long as you don't have those stupid broken attack hax. Two seconds later I get hit by a Link's grounded up-b... I swore.

 

[Linkshot]

I'll bet they didn't notice the buff because it didn't have increased hitlag

 

[uhmuzing]

: ) I finally got my SD card for this, and after about two hours playing the cast, I love the changes made to this game.

 

[HailCrest]

lol... I did this for scrubs at my school. They were like, oh you're playing with visual hax right? Ok, just as long as you don't have those stupid broken attack hax. Two seconds later I get hit by a Link's grounded up-b... I swore.

Karma: it exists

Um, is it possible to get a code with file replacement (allowing textures and music) and an unlimited camera also unlimited replays, but without bbrawl? I'm practicing with my friends on wifi and I don't want any desynching.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yep. Just go to the code database and compile it yourself.

 

[Rinku リンク]

lol... I did this for scrubs at my school. They were like, oh you're playing with visual hax right? Ok, just as long as you don't have those stupid broken attack hax. Two seconds later I get hit by a Link's grounded up-b... I swore.

Well it's not overpowered really. It doesen't kill until 180% in vBrawl . . . fresh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, it now blatantly kills people at 90%.

It would be overpowered if it were extremely safe and didn't require a sweetspot, but now it's just really valuable. You an either go for it out of shield or out of dash, so it's not hard to land.

You don't have to take me seriously on this one, since I only got to do this matchup once in a friendly, but I think Metaknight is in fact legitimately disadvantaged to Olimar something like 6/4 at least. It's too tedious to get a kill on Olimar due to how easily he can counter Metaknight's approach. As M2K says, MK can only D-air against Olimar, and considering how much you need to use that, it will probably get pretty stale against Olimar. With D-smash and Up-B weakened, it takes a lot more effort to get Olimar offstage or KOed. Not helping Metaknight either is the buff to Olimar's Up-b for anti-airing.

Metaknight in particular has quite a bit of trouble approaching Olimar due to his low aerial top speed, which gives Olimar more opportunity to run away effectively. Metaknight also has to fullhop to D-air safely, since using his other aerials in a SH keeps him too low to the ground to avoid the grab. Tornado doesn't work on Olimar either in the first place due to his shield size.

I'd suggest that Marth has 3 more frames of landing lag on his F-air. Just 3. It won't make his F-air drastically less safe, it will mostly just mean that non tethers can consistently shieldgrab him out of F-air when in range. I think it's very annoying that Marth can fastfall a F-air on shield and Up-B before shieldgrabs come out (frame advantage on perfect sourspot SHFFed F-air is -4 wtf). Not even someone like Mario has a frame trap like that, and Mario's Up-B is largely just inferior to Marth's (besides the fact it can actually be used to punish that ridiculous frame trap of Marth's). This nerf wouldn't make any of his good matchups disadvantaged as far as I'm concerned, it would just make things less stressful for the other character in question.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, it now blatantly kills people at 90%.

It would be overpowered if it were extremely safe and didn't require a sweetspot, but now it's just really valuable. You an either go for it out of shield or out of dash, so it's not hard to land.

This move comes out in 11 frames (unless I'm reading brawlbox totally wrong)... that's faster than human reaction. It kills around the same time Lucas' U-smash kills which comes out 28 frames. Really...
Sweetspot is the majority of the timing for the first hit on Link's Up-B, Lucas' U-smash also gets weaker as the hitbox lingers.
Lucas' U-smash sends directly up
Link's Up-B sends horizontal, making walk-offs extremely lethal.

It's a bit overbuffed, especially seeing it has a pretty good amount of range and can be done OoS and Out of dash.

 

[Linkshot]

You can't overbuff the SCRAAAAAAAAAAH.

 

[Mit]

This move comes out in 11 frames (unless I'm reading brawlbox totally wrong)... that's faster than human reaction. It kills around the same time Lucas' U-smash kills which comes out 28 frames. Really...
Sweetspot is the majority of the timing for the first hit on Link's Up-B, Lucas' U-smash also gets weaker as the hitbox lingers.
Lucas' U-smash sends directly up
Link's Up-B sends horizontal, making walk-offs extremely lethal.

It's a bit overbuffed, especially seeing it has a pretty good amount of range and can be done OoS and Out of dash.

By comparison, how fast does Donkey Kong's usmash come out and how early does it kill?

It feels like there are more than a few powerful, early killers that come out decently amongst some heavyweight characters. I easily consider Link within the heavyweight class now, especially with his still-remaining awful recovery. Definitely one of the best heavyweights in BBrawl though, that's for sure >_>

I feel like I'm against nerfing anything of Link's just because I feel like he deserves whatever high ranking spot on BBrawl's tier list he could manage... Especially with how under-repped he is (amongst high level players anyways. Noobs love them some Link).

 

[PKNintendo]

I completely disagree with nerfing SCRAAH. It was simply fixed (because of Sakurai's massive hatred of Link the move was AWFUL in vBrawl)

It's a great KO move but not broken.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, Link already has buffed kill power and can rely on his safe second strike, ftilt, utilt, f-air, arrows, d-smash and his really strong dair. Giving him the up-b buff gives him an even more reliable low-percent kill move that can be used to tech-chase and has good range. It's obviously higher up on the risk reward scale than a move like Lucass u-smash.

Also, Link has more repping than Lucas. Even at higher levels of play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This move comes out in 11 frames (unless I'm reading brawlbox totally wrong)... that's faster than human reaction. It kills around the same time Lucas' U-smash kills which comes out 28 frames. Really...
Sweetspot is the majority of the timing for the first hit on Link's Up-B, Lucas' U-smash also gets weaker as the hitbox lingers.
Lucas' U-smash sends directly up
Link's Up-B sends horizontal, making walk-offs extremely lethal.

It's a bit overbuffed, especially seeing it has a pretty good amount of range and can be done OoS and Out of dash.

I don't think his Up-B is too overbuffed. He can't just randomly spam it, because it's massively unsafe on block or whiff. And while 11 frames (in front of him I believe) is pretty decent for a kill move, against some of the better shield pressure games, it's tough to pull off consistently.

It is however a good viable KO move by virtue of its range and speed application advantages.

I'd nerf Marth's up-B before I'd nerf Link's Up-B personally, as Marth's Up-B is pretty lethal too, harder to punish significantly, and MUCH more stupidly easy to land. (see my suggestion on F-air nerf btw)

I think Link's D-tilt is underestimated a lot...it's faster than his F-tilt, and a lot safer on defenses due to IASA frames. That move got a nice KO power buff, so I really think it should be looked into more.

 

[Gordo Michael]

I got this to work. Too fun haha.

edit: Question. Can I send extended replays to people without BBrawl and still have it work?

 

[MysticKenji]

I got this to work. Too fun haha.

edit: Question. Can I send extended replays to people without BBrawl and still have it work?

no, the replays have to be played while bbrawl codes are on else weird things happen

 

[Gordo Michael]

no, the replays have to be played while bbrawl codes are on else weird things happens

Ok thanks.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To be clear, while it's very weird, it's not dangerous. The replay will just show very incorrect things happening; it's actually very funny. It's not useful to show what happens in the match, but don't be scared of what will happen or anything.

 

[ぱみゅ]

My Replay Vault screen use to freeze if there are mixed BBrawl and vBrawl replays lol
Anyways, watch any replay on the unfitting version is just funny (I use to do it when I'm bored =P)

 

[Ehic]

Lets discuss Falco now?

 

[The_Altrox]

Lets discuss Falco now?

That back throw into a bair is too sexy

 

[HailCrest]

Contrast:

Link's grounded UpB: 11 frames. Kills at 90%.
Lucas' fsmash: 14 frames. Kills at 105%+.

If Lucas' fsmash is a very good KO move, then Link's grounded UpB would be broken. Since you say it isn't broken, fsmash isn't a good KO move since it's blatantly worse than Link's Grounded UpB.

Monsieur, we have a contradiction.

I stand by my opinion that fsmash should be buffed further and Lucas' ftilt and utilt be buffed to killing power since jablock is against BBRawl policy of "no infinites". Fair too, but to a lesser extent.

Either that or nerf SCRAAH, since Link has so many more KO options in BBrawl.

 

[Linkshot]

NEVER
NERF
SCRAAAAAAAAAAAH

If anything, nerf fTilt. Scrah is as powerful as it should be.

 

[IrohDW]

you're argument rests under the assumption that all characters should be killing at the same percents and have the same speed on those kill moves. That isn't balance, it's sameness. Link may be stronger than Lucas, but it is balanced because he still has the worst recovery in the game and is easy to gimp.

 

[Steeler]

Link's up b is way more unsafe on miss/block though

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, Link and Lucas aren't really fairly comparable like this. Lucas's kill options are worse than Link's because Lucas is far more mobile than Link, has was faster and more reliable damage racking options (Link's jab is decent, but it's nowhere near as solid as Lucas's, plus Lucas has things like ftilt, dtilt, dair, and nair to which Link has little analogue), and Lucas has a fantastic recovery while Link's is overall the worst in Bbrawl, bad to a point that it not only makes him bad off-stage but he has to carefully control his on-stage game to avoid being hit into unrecoverable positions (kinda like Olimar).

And yes, Steeler is correct that the fact that Link's up special is far more unsafe than Lucas's fsmash. This isn't to say Lucas's fsmash is safe on block or anything, but Link' up special is usually punished on block or whiff with the defender's most powerful attack, assuming that attack isn't something truly ridiculous like Warlock Punch. This point does matter significantly.

The general point that Link and Lucas are completely different types of characters is the main thing here though. Lucas is somewhat speedy and, while he does not have bad KO options, is really more defined by his excellent damage potential. Link is a strong zoner who is very disjointed and very powerful, but he's kinda sluggish and has serious issues with aerial combat and basically no off-stage game. I don't think expecting similar things out of these two is very reasonable.

---

Speaking of Link though, let's go a somewhat different direction. Has anyone been using Toon Link? From what I've seen, he's still good and in some ways empowered by the greater diversity (and his greater reliability on smashes), but it's hard to say since he's definitely far less popular than his twilight self (and most people seem to think he's a worse character too).

And since people are mentioning Falco, I would point out that Thinkaman tried to stir the pot on Falco with little success earlier. The main question I have with Falco is how his matchups look now that those silly chaingrabs are gone. They just kinda dominated Falco's game before so I don't find this particularly predictable.

 

[JOE!]

for starters, i belive yoshi vs falco may be 50/50 now

or 45/55 falco, back in vBrawl, the MU relied on who grabbed who first, but falco had the better chaingrab (yoshi's grab release was ok...but crap damage compared to falco's) they both lost that asset, but yoshi got buffs to help him rack damage and kill better, whereas falco still has teh pew-pew of doom...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Contrast:

Link's grounded UpB: 11 frames. Kills at 90%.
Lucas' fsmash: 14 frames. Kills at 105%+.

If Lucas' fsmash is a very good KO move, then Link's grounded UpB would be broken. Since you say it isn't broken, fsmash isn't a good KO move since it's blatantly worse than Link's Grounded UpB.

Monsieur, we have a contradiction.

I stand by my opinion that fsmash should be buffed further and Lucas' ftilt and utilt be buffed to killing power since jablock is against BBRawl policy of "no infinites". Fair too, but to a lesser extent.

Either that or nerf SCRAAH, since Link has so many more KO options in BBrawl.

This is a bad comparison, to put it bluntly. U-smash is much more comparable because they have the same killing output, but Lucas U-smash is 10 times less safe. IMO you could buff Lucas U-smash, b/c it really would only help people who have put themselves in an ultimately bad situation (mostly whiffed Marf Up-B).

Link isn't a close up fighter. He relys on forcing approaches which is much better in a game like Brawl to set up a KO. Lucas is usually forced to approach in his MU's and doesn't have the approach tools that aren't horribly punished and even if Lucas does set you up in a good position, you can nearly always roll out of it, because Lucas' roll punish options are all from read. If you can get the read he doesn't have the output to make up for the read, b/c when you read it you usually only get 11 damage off of d-smash (honestly too weak for a read). You've turned Lucas from BBrawl into a jab freak where he relys on jab for everything b/c it's his only good move with the damage output to back it up.

 

[Steeler]

if you buff lucas usmash, buff ivy usmash to kill people at 20%

 

[Sph34r]

if you buff lucas usmash, buff ivy usmash to kill people at 20%

YES.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[HailCrest]

If ivy usmash is buffed to kill at 20% Warlock/Falcon Punches/Fully Charged PK Flash/Ness PKT2 sweetspot must be an OHKO :/

Less like bbrawl and more like Brawl- lol

 

[PKNintendo]

if you buff lucas usmash, buff ivy usmash to kill people at 20%

It still won't save Ivy from being mediocre.

Spoiler

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or anything. I was just dying to say that!

 

[Steeler]

It still won't save Ivy from being mediocre.

oh yeah, definitely

but it'd make usmash spam 80% more viable

let the "SORE" grunting begin

SORE SORE SORE

 

[PKNintendo]

SORE SORE SORE IVY SORE (taunt)

Repeat.
LOL at your sig.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Speaking of Link though, let's go a somewhat different direction. Has anyone been using Toon Link? From what I've seen, he's still good and in some ways empowered by the greater diversity (and his greater reliability on smashes), but it's hard to say since he's definitely far less popular than his twilight self (and most people seem to think he's a worse character too).

I used to main Tink (now I forgot how to use him lol). He has few issues in vBrawl, and I'm not sure how to point them, because he racks damage well, and kills pretty early. BBrawl only helps him with those (although Fsmash now does what it was suposed to do before SDI was used). Also, he has good range, zoning, and spam game, a decent recovery and good mindgame tools.

Maybe his problems was that he was very punishable (even if floatiness helps against combos), but I think that main vTink's problem was that he is popular... among n00bs... so mid and high-level players lost respect and don't pick him... =/

 

[Steeler]

tink doesn't really kill "early" with his good KO moves, and he really doesn't have very many of those, at that.

i think he is a very solid upper tier character in vbrawl though, similar to zss and olimar who are all solid characters but don't have a ton of top level players representing them.

 

[Mit]

I think Tink is just a character that requires a lot of technical skill. Definitely very advanced to fully utilize him, just like Link. One look at the AT thread for Tink will show you this. Viewing some of the videos of the better Tinks out there is also rather amazing. I think he's a very solid character, moved higher to the top of the tier list due to receiving some minor buffs and those above him mostly receiving minor nerfs.

It'd be nice to hear what some current, high-level Tink mains think, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Instead of buffing the knockback of those mentioned moves that should kill at 20% or stuff like Ivysaur or Lucas's U-smashes, give them MASSIVE damage increases and actually tone down the knockback so that they still kill at similar percents. That will make those moves "unique" without making them Brawl- ridiculous.

Anyhow...Toon Link....

tink doesn't really kill "early" with his good KO moves, and he really doesn't have very many of those, at that.

False, he actually kills quite early with his good KO moves, in comparison to vBrawl Link who doesn't kill very early at all (besides when he lands D-air for the most part). In vBrawl, Toon Link's Smashes, F-air, and U-air in fact have more knockback than his counterparts'.

TL at any rate is a solid character with safe damage racking options and zoning. He is hindered by the disadvantages that come with a tether grab, and the fact that his KO moves are rarely ever safely applicable on defenses (although fresh U-airs are quite annoying for several characters to get around). Learning to powershield his spam also kinda limits his damage output.

I think TL and Samus fundamentally play very similarly, with Samus clearly being significantly better by virtue of survivability (better recovery and weight), better/safer setups into KOs (while not really losing KO power at all), not to mention better edgeguarding.

 

[Mit]

On making the next version of BBrawl a bit prettier, what about an optional texture pack to go along with it? I think it's something that would further encourage more casual players to try out BBrawl. Brawl+ has a texture pack to go along with their release that spices things up a bit and makes videos look a little more fresh.

However, I'd recommend a more classy texture pack. One that doesn't replace every single outfit for every single character, but one that just adds nice textures that blend well with the game for many of the characters' extra outfits (and still keeps all appropriate team color outfits). I'd also recommend textures that don't break the Nintendo mold, and bring in random characters from other series' and the like. Also, new textures for characters who have confusing team colors, like green Lucario and green Sonic. Some examples of other textures that blend well would be a Fierce Deity Link, Shadow the Hedgehog (which works nice for a red Sonic replacement), Fly Mario (Super Mario Galaxy), Mr. L, and nice, general recolors for certain characters.

There aren't too many great stage textures I could recommend, but there's probably more out there that I'm not aware of. I could dig up stuff if this was something decided to be pursued.


Any thoughts, feedback? This would of course just be another pack in addition to the general codeset with no frills attached. Although, I would still recommend a custom title screen for BBrawl for all versions, although maybe not as I suppose that'd involve the File Replacement Code (which supposively makes Brawl slightly less stable or something? I forget the reasons stated as to why it wasn't on in the default BBrawl codeset).

Next week I think I'm gonna post the .pngs for the title screen so that everyone can try their hand at a logo so we could see what the results might look like. I'd whip up something but I'm not the greatest at typography.


EDIT: Oh, and some custom music. Although, I would lean more towards switching songs around among stages, like trading some of Rumble Falls' excellent music with Jungle Japes' subpar music (Bramble Blast >>>>>> DK Rap).