Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[CarVac]

Making perfect shielding harder in order to buff Ike would be like disabling jumps to buff Jigglypuff.

I mean, most the attacks she has problems with are disjointed aerials, right? No aerials, no problems!

Edit: Ike also struggles with fast attacks since he is so slow that most quick jabs can interrupt attacks that characters with more speed would be able to get off. We could also disable jabs to help Ike out.

Double Edit: I ran these ideas past Ampharos, who just suggested we skip all this and buff Turtle.

I don't need sarcasm to be shown a point. All it does is make me angry when reading it. I readily admit defeat when shown good evidence in the form of posts such as RocketPSIence's and Eldiran's thoughtful and courteous replies.

To be clear on my perpective, I rarely use PSing because I focus on dodging or just avoiding attacks. So, my viewpoint was flawed when suggesting a change to perfect shielding.

 

[Thinkaman]

Heh, I apologize. TP can attest that I'm just an extremely sarcastic person in general.

 

[Astartes]

how much do u think that the changes they made will stop meta knight domination. is it possible to make him less **** without fundamentally changing the game. sorry if this is completely off topic just wondering.

 

[CarVac]

@Thinkaman: In retrospect, your post is actually rather funny.

@Astartes: One: the tornado isn't like a guaranteed 15-20 damage. Two: Dsmash isn't as ridiculously strong. Three: Shuttle loop isn't so stupidly good.

That covers all the bases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs in case you've never seen it.

 

[ShermantheTank]

MK is one of the better BBrawl success stories, I'd say. He acts more as a damage-racker/expert-gimper than anything else now, and the fact that he dies early due to his weight sticks out a lot more often when you actually struggle to get kills.

We have to keep in mind that Ike can kill at 60% with his f-smash. It isn't likely, but if it was there'd be no reason to play anyone else.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Double Edit: I ran these ideas past Ampharos, who just suggested we skip all this and buff Turtle.

/support

 

[Fuujin]

Zelda/Sheik combo is really good indeed.

"Zelda is supposed to be played as a combo and I've already understood that, so why I'm still complaining about she and her solo matchups?" because she is still on the team, and even if damage is not a problem now, she is still strugglung a lot against them.

Sure, you solved most of her (their?) matchups, Ftilt really helps a lot against most air games like MK and Peach, and helps a lot with poking and pressuring; yet, GW and Marth are still her worst matchups, very badly (both was pointed before in this thread, maybe I'll edit this after I look for them).

In both, speed and disjointment really shuts her down, so her actual buffs doesn't help at all.

Anyways, I'm actually unable to think a way to solve that unless affecting her actual good/even MU's.


Again, I'm not actually suggesting to make Zelda more viable (mostly because she already is, at least for fun), but to help her with these particular Matchups.

I dunno about Zelda/Sheik.
There are several match ups that Zelda loses about 70/65-30/35 and Sheik only does slightly better in them and I guess people think that's fine. Match ups like MK, Snake, Marth, GnW, Olimar all beat Zelda pretty bad and sheik just does about 5 better on them.
Seems kinda like it's acceptable to say "Zelda get's destroyed by so and so, but Sheik get's destroyed slightly less by them so let's leave it at that."

 

[Fuujin]

Also with the removal of Sheik's F tilt lock I think her match ups for GnW, Snake, Wario and Ike have gotten worse on her part.
And these are all match ups that Zelda already does worse on than Sheik (with the exception of Snake IMO).

 

[IrohDW]

One thing that I think would help zelda in those matchups would be to make din's fire have less startup/ending lag. This would make it an effective short/midrange projectile which would help a lot against characters that can outspace her. Zeldas OoS game would be better if Nayrus love invincibility frames didn't run out one frame before the hitbox comes out.

I don't understand how the change to Zeldas jab is supposed to be better than before. It used to do 6%. Now it does 3% and the flower does 1-3%. It seems to me that it does either as much damage as it did before or less.

Maybe Shiek could have down throws knockback lowered so that it had better followups. That would definitely help her against heavyweights like snake, wario, and ike.

 

[ShermantheTank]

Match ups like MK, Snake, Marth, GnW, Olimar all beat Zelda pretty bad and sheik just does about 5 better on them.

Sheik's needles are an awesome pressure tool against everyone who can't camp out of that group. 25% damage isn't something to joke around with, and you can mind game and even gimp with them fairly well. Combing that with Sheik's awesome speed gives her a lot of options for match-ups like Marth, where she's outmatched in every other option.

Again, the point of Zelda/Sheik is NOT to use them as individuals, but to use them as a single unit. This means Sheik racks damage and Zelda kills. The goal isn't to make the Sheik and whoever or the Zelda and whoever match-up balanced, it's to make the Sheik/Zelda and whoever match-up balanced. So even if Zelda gets owned by Marth, all she has to do is land one move (and it can be pretty much ANY of her moves) to ensure that they're dead at a low percentage.

One thing that I think would help zelda in those matchups would be to make din's fire have less startup/ending lag.

This would be awesome. Zelda can camp semi-decently against people without a projectile, but reducing that lag would make it a lot easier to force an enemy into one of Zelda's kill attacks.

/snip

/support

I LOLed pretty hard there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

MK is one of the better BBrawl success stories, I'd say. He acts more as a damage-racker/expert-gimper than anything else now, and the fact that he dies early due to his weight sticks out a lot more often when you actually struggle to get kills.

While MK is definitely still one of the top characters, I mostly agree with this statement.

We have to keep in mind that Ike can kill at 60% with his f-smash. It isn't likely, but if it was there'd be no reason to play anyone else.

Fox is able to kill people almost that early with his Up-smash, but he doesn't come close to dominating the metagame, despite how "easy" it is to land his Up-smash. If Ike's F-smash was still massively unsafe (lol like one entire second of ending lag), he probably still wouldn't be using it much at all. This principle is also the main reason you don't see Marth spamming F-smash despite how fast and how much reward he can get from it.

 

[darksamus77]

While MK is definitely still one of the top characters, I mostly agree with this statement.

Fox is able to kill people almost that early with his Up-smash, but he doesn't come close to dominating the metagame, despite how "easy" it is to land his Up-smash. If Ike's F-smash was still massively unsafe (lol like one entire second of ending lag), he probably still wouldn't be using it much at all.

I completely agree with Sherman on MK

 

[da K.I.D.]

you don't see Marth spamming F-smash despite how fast and how much reward he can get from it.

I see this all the time...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I see this all the time...

Bad marth players. Good marth players use Fsmash sparingly.

 

[Fuujin]

One thing that I think would help zelda in those matchups would be to make din's fire have less startup/ending lag. This would make it an effective short/midrange projectile which would help a lot against characters that can outspace her. Zeldas OoS game would be better if Nayrus love invincibility frames didn't run out one frame before the hitbox comes out.

I don't understand how the change to Zeldas jab is supposed to be better than before. It used to do 6%. Now it does 3% and the flower does 1-3%. It seems to me that it does either as much damage as it did before or less.

Maybe Shiek could have down throws knockback lowered so that it had better followups. That would definitely help her against heavyweights like snake, wario, and ike.

Yeah I agree with din's fire it's a pretty bad projectile.
And her new jab does less than it does before because the
size of the flower and how easily it is to knock it off.
The flower only get's to do 1% while it's attached unless the player is standing still.

Sheik's needles are an awesome pressure tool against everyone who can't camp out of that group. 25% damage isn't something to joke around with, and you can mind game and even gimp with them fairly well. Combing that with Sheik's awesome speed gives her a lot of options for match-ups like Marth, where she's outmatched in every other option.

Needles only do that much damage at close range and that's not something you want to do against someone like Marth, with the minimal knockback they do and the ending lag she has Marth can easily punish it.

Again, the point of Zelda/Sheik is NOT to use them as individuals, but to use them as a single unit. This means Sheik racks damage and Zelda kills. The goal isn't to make the Sheik and whoever or the Zelda and whoever match-up balanced, it's to make the Sheik/Zelda and whoever match-up balanced. So even if Zelda gets owned by Marth, all she has to do is land one move (and it can be pretty much ANY of her moves) to ensure that they're dead at a low percentage.

If by using them together you mean "play with sheik until your opponent gets to a kill % then switch to Zelda, then switch back when they die" I'm not a huge fan of that. I use both of them and I think I should be able to play against Marth as solo Zelda one stock and not my *** handed to me.
Switching is important but I don't feel you should have to switch just to be able to win a match.

This would be awesome. Zelda can camp semi-decently against people without a projectile, but reducing that lag would make it a lot easier to force an enemy into one of Zelda's kill attacks.

Hah not really, Only characters she can camp are Dedede when he's using Waddle Dee Toss and Ice climbers in the air.
It's very slow and easy to dodge in high level play.
It's a very situational move,one of the worse projectiles in the game I'd say.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey guys, I thought it would be best I run this by you guys and make sure nobody takes offense before using it in my sig.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn66/BudgetPlayerCadet/Brawl-sig.png

Yes, I did the same thing to a Brawl+ banner.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The jab kinda sets up for a few things now while it didn't before. That's the main benefit. Silly stuff like jab -> ftilt -> usmash has happened in playtesting. That's obviously not a true combo, but it's not completely implausible to land.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I don't need sarcasm to be shown a point. All it does is make me angry when reading it. I readily admit defeat when shown good evidence in the form of posts such as RocketPSIence's and Eldiran's thoughtful and courteous replies.

To be clear on my perpective, I rarely use PSing because I focus on dodging or just avoiding attacks. So, my viewpoint was flawed when suggesting a change to perfect shielding.

Think's post was good evidence, lol.

But seriously, I dabbled with Sonic some last night, to try to figure out what he might need, and yes, Dsmash would benefit a lot, not going to lie.

Dtilt at low percents, with a bit of improper DI sets up into utilt pretty sweet, along with most anything now, and dthrow is pretty amazing now, and the spring is amazing, but I struggle to find a good use for dsmash, considering it's not all that great. :/

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah I agree with din's fire it's a pretty bad projectile.

Din's Fire is really bad. It's good to pressure your opponents when they're far, but neither helps with spacing nor bait an actual aproach (they'll eventually success =\ ).

Needles only do that much damage at close range and that's not something you want to do against someone like Marth, with the minimal knockback they do and the ending lag she has Marth can easily punish it.

You'll never use it against Marth anyways, you want to have marth as far as your pokes allow it lol, yet, a mid range needles are ok, imo. Damage isn't groundbreaking, but it's acceptable, and allows a lot of followups.

If by using them together you mean "play with sheik until your opponent gets to a kill % then switch to Zelda, then switch back when they die" I'm not a huge fan of that. I use both of them and I think I should be able to play against Marth as solo Zelda one stock and not my *** handed to me.
Switching is important but I don't feel you should have to switch just to be able to win a match.

as I've said before, having zelda only come, hit and go away, is just silly

Hah not really, Only characters she can camp are Dedede when he's using Waddle Dee Toss and Ice climbers in the air.
It's very slow and easy to dodge in high level play.
It's a very situational move,one of the worse projectiles in the game I'd say.

(see my first statement in this post)

 

[Lokee]

Hey guys, I thought it would be best I run this by you guys and make sure nobody takes offense before using it in my sig.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn66/BudgetPlayerCadet/Brawl-sig.png

Yes, I did the same thing to a Brawl+ banner.

I dont like it IMO but do whatever you want.

EDIT: KyoKoro is right though. As much as I hate Zelda, the idea of her only coming out to kill then going away seems pretty lame if the character is a single enity. It figures like this majorily:

% Racking Ability / Kill Ability
Zelda: Managable / Above Average
Shiek: Above Average / Managable

However I dont think it should be seen this Black and White. Maybe we could look into other fields such as Kill Setups, Combo Setups, Camping, Gimping, Recovery, Edge Guarding and all that goodness. We should focus on bringing them together but making them more unique to each other, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Linkshot]

You could photoshop Brawl+, change it to a "-", then photoshop Balanced Brawl onto it and change it to "Broken * Cheap * Ghey"

 

[Steeler]

i kind of agree with a2 on ike, actually. i think the solution is simply making a few of ike's attacks do more shield damage. you can just shield everything on reaction (except for maybe jab/dash attack/bair?) and run away from his jab. this could help. we've already given ike another option for one of his other huge weaknesses, getting juggled/regrabbed on landing, with the QD buff. QD is a more viable approach now, also, but it's not quite good enough imo.

i suggest buffing a few of his aerials, any or all of fair/nair/bair, if you do decide to take that path.

also i've been telling you guys to buff turtle for a while now -o-

bow down

 

[ShermantheTank]

The point of Sheik's needles are to apply pressure and to get an enemy into a range where they're punishable. If Sheik is needle camping, she's going to force an aerial approach. Forcing approaches is ALWAYS a good thing.

As long as we keep talking about Marth, we're not going to talk about having Zelda come out to play; she's too slow and disjointed.

For Ike, keep in mind that a QD slightly above ground will cancel and give him a TON of forward moment.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Was thinking a bit more over the past couple of hours, something to Sonic's dair, a sweet spot spike would help as a way to gimp people easier. That's kinda' what it's used for now, just to hit them out of a second jump or something, and the StF property just makes it quicker to get to them, IMO.

 

[TP]

Was thinking a bit more over the past couple of hours, something to Sonic's dair, a sweet spot spike would help as a way to gimp people easier. That's kinda' what it's used for now, just to hit them out of a second jump or something, and the StF property just makes it quicker to get to them, IMO.

Aren't the characters this would work against not the characters he needs help against? I may be wrong, but I think his hardest matchups are against characters that have no reason to get spiked ever.

 

[da K.I.D.]

mk and marth, get daired more than you would think.

so as far at that goes, yes, it helps those two at the very least.

 

[ぱみゅ]

also, if Dair spiked them, they'll be spring spiked.

Anyways, it would for sure be useful against bad matchups, but broken against his current even/good ones =/

 

[Kitamerby]

also, if Dair spiked them, they'll be spring spiked.

Anyways, it would for sure be useful against bad matchups, but broken against his current even/good ones =/

No single change could make Sonic broken in this game. You could make his weight 900000 and he'll still suck. Try out the idea first. (The spiking, not the weight.)

 

[Linkshot]

I think dAir is fine where it is. Maybe another tick of damage. It's a surprise upward kill now.

"SPRING! NOPE NOT UAIRING YOU! PUNISH AIRDODGE WITH DAIR!"

 

[da K.I.D.]

I hope you dont think thats some kind of b brawl move...

ive been doing that mess since fall 08'

 

[Linkshot]

Well it's more effective now, at least

 

[deepseadiva]

Hey guys, I thought it would be best I run this by you guys and make sure nobody takes offense before using it in my sig.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn66/BudgetPlayerCadet/Brawl-sig.png

Yes, I did the same thing to a Brawl+ banner.

Lawl, I love it.

Though it's not entirely clear that's a Brawl- sig, and it's just not bashing BBrawl. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

are they essentially the same thing?

 

[Linkshot]

Brawl- is a project that makes everybody extremely broken.

Are we gonna be productive anymore? >.>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I just wanted to make sure nobody felt too offended; seeing as AA just breezed over it I think it's cool.

 

[BSP]

also, if Dair spiked them, they'll be spring spiked.

Anyways, it would for sure be useful against bad matchups, but broken against his current even/good ones =/

Not really, Sonic has to be nearly on top of the opponent for the sweetspot to connect, it'd still be avoidable, but a nice change imo.

More damage on dair won't really do much, seeing that most people will DI the u throw making a dair fairly predictable/avoidable.

Anyways, i like the spiking idea.

 

[Lokee]

Wouldnt adding a spike to Sonic's Dair (due its properties) make Sonic follow behind or along the target possibly allowing followups or will it do something different?

Also I think we should tact on some Stage Dicussion which is something generally overlooked.

Like fixing the problems with Spear Pillar and Hyrule Temple.

Or adding the neutral Subspace Stages hint hint.

 

[The_Altrox]

Wouldnt adding a spike to Sonic's Dair (due its properties) make Sonic follow behind or along the target possibly allowing followups or will it do something different?

Also I think we should tact on some Stage Dicussion which is something generally overlooked.

Like fixing the problems with Spear Pillar and Hyrule Temple.

Or adding the neutral Subspace Stages hint hint.

I agree about the spear pillar thing. The only thing I hate about it is the disappearing floor. Instant death

 

[Mit]

We've discussed stages many time. AA and Think are well aware of all issues with them, but there simply aren't any codes to fix the problems yet.

If you can find some codes to use, by all means mention them so we can actually discuss how to fix some of it. Otherwise it's all been said before and nothing's even able to be fixed at this point.


Also, disappearing floor is awesome. Instant no-ledge stage hazard. It actually makes that stage effect worthwhile I guess it sucks if you're standing on it though.


Also: we need a custom title screen like those Brawl+ folks

 

[Lokee]

Well I recently skimmed over a thread talking about deleting model parts, However I do not know if it can be applied to stages or remove its collision detection for that matter.

About the title screen. I saw Brawl+ and frankly its basically the same except with the + tacted on, while I was expecting something more FLASHY to coinside with the aspect of "FUN" that the project likes to promote all too well.

I cant really see what kinda screen we can have seeing as we are of the subtle variety. HOWEVER I would do something neat like make the brawlYingYang at the center with images or portraits of every single character either slowly spinning around it or going toward it in a repeating cycle.

Or maybe something more dynamic and have the same symbol very large at the the left hand side as a half circle surrounded by every single character again expect when a portrait of a character hits around the center line of the screen a "closeup" clip of that character will play for a secound then on to the next.

but that just me