Time for a big post.
Sorry if I missed a quote or didn't reply to you, but there's a lot. I did read everything though, and the quality of posts has been generally high.
Now, time for some fast replies.
I say no to a throw that kills at 120%.
Very few throws should kill even at 140%
I'd say to make his charged arrows do more damage would be a decent buff, and move the n-air buff to u-air.
Pit is a character that isn't supposed to be killing to easily, but he's alot like sonic where he can easily get damage on the character with fast moves. Also his aerials are pretty decent at killing.
There's a lot of temptation to add KO powers to throws. In theory it sounds like a very straightforward way to help any character with KO problems. However, we've found that people *really* don't like them in practice. If people "feel" a throw is "too strong" or "not supposed to do that", they have a pretty strong negative emotional reaction.
I believe it has to do with throws feeling "less your fault" due to the delay from being grabbed--you are more sensitive to a perceived injustice. ROB's u-throw seems to be the exception, but all other stronger KO throws people tend to dislike unanimously in practice.
In the future, don't expect much in terms of stronger KO throws. We'll try other things first.
I regard Pit in a very similar manner to Sonic in the current BBrawl build; both damage racking characters who are slightly under par that should get a little more reward than they have on certain moves. They don't need anything drastic, which I would argue kill move buffs are leaning towards being, just something small like damage or knockback angle tweaking. For these two damage just seems to fit the best.
Agreed.
Wolf was the worst good character before, because he got gayed by any thing you could name... With all of those things gone, he really is a decent character.
Agreed again. Wolf will be investigated some, but he doesn't need a revolution.
Anyone think old King DDD may need some help.?
To be honest... not at all. I've been extremely pleased with where DDD is personally. I was DDD in a few matches of the BBrawl event we had and won all of those. D-throw to d-tilt is scary good. Once in a blue moon I get the d-throw spike off too.
DDD still has his Bair and godly grab range to help him out
he is now solid IMO, not broken
At one point Ampharos thought King DDD was the #1 character on the roster during testing. That has changed since then of course, but still: the King is good.
DDD's F-tilt is blockable on reaction, he can't actually projectile camp against anyone who doesn't take dumb commitments, his recovery is alright but SUPER punishable, and his U-tilt is SUPER telegraphed and very difficult to land on conservative players, and his Smashes are for the most part not viable moves. Without his chaingrab, he no longer is able to do reliable massive damage to compensate for his extreme lack of any reliable KO moves.
Yes, he probably needs help. I personally think he's worse off than most characters in this game. The best grab can only do so much if all your throws can do is tack on bits of damage. He has trouble actually utilizing most of his movepool effectively on stage since he can't actually approach with his crap mobility and huge stature. I mean, he's obviously not bottom tier since he doesn't get autogimped and he can shieldgrab like a homo. But that's basically all that's going for him.
Changes I want to see to Marth:
+1 to throws. both a buff and a nerf, this should remove a few chaingrabs that Marth has on certain characters like Falco. Possibility of losing F-throw to F-smash exists, but Marth should also appreciate a slight knockback increase on his Up-throw for emergency KOs
-3 to all versions of the last hit of Dancing Blade. Tell me why this move doesn't deserve it. <_<
Change I want to see on G&W:
-1 to first four hits of B-air, +1 to last hit. The theory I have behind this is to unpolarize certain matchups he does really well in, and to help his harder matchups. The reduced damage means that people who are constantly pressured to death by this attack should survive longer. On the flipside, the reduced damage means it is harder to SDI, which makes it harder for say Marth to SDI and punish it, and the final hit getting a damage buff would go some way to help get Marth offstage.
Change I want to see on Snake:
-4 to D-throw, +1 to all other throws.Mostly a nerf, but this should encourage more variety to Snake's grab game.
Change I want to see on Falco:
D-tilt knockback increased. This is mostly a useless move due to Falco having better, safer options, but seeing that Falco lacks solid KO options, he should get another viable option.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head for balancing characters.
Thanks for the feedback. Going fast:
Marth probably won't be changed. Dancing Blade nerf was actually considered very early on in the project but turned down--I think Marth will continue to be acceptable as he is.
The G&W change would only help mid-level play, and would actually hurt high level play because it would be harder to SDI the move.
We talked about something similar to the Snake change, but might not go that route. We'll see.
The Falco change is interesting, but I'm not sure Falco is really in a position to be needing buffs.
I'm disappointed that you removed Yoshi's chaingrab (what with being a Yoshi user, that was one of the highlights of me playing amongst my friends) but you've done a lot to even it out, so I'll play and see :D
also for the record Marth probably does need a nerf. Marth vs. Yoshi is such a bad matchup for the poor dino. Unless the various changes give him more capability to get through Marth's range and get him offstage, of course.
Yoshi's chaingrab slightly polarized his matchups and was a byproduct of mechanics that did far worse things in other matchups. Hopefully you'll find his buffs, that work on everyone, more helpful.
Egg restoring double jump is especially helpful against Marth, who seems particularly good at swatting Yoshi out of the air to begin with.
Now... Diddy on the other hand.... just WHY did Nintendo add him? NOBODY wanted him. and what's worse - he's GOOD. D:
The DKC games were extremely successful, especially in Western markets.
This project wouldn't exist if Nintendo actually gamed about their gamer consumer base.
Actually this project wouldn't exist if Nintendo didn't care about their gamer consumer base.
This project wouldn't exist if Falcon and MK had been swapped in the tiers.
Perhaps!
They do.
Their consumer base wants to have chaotic, unpredictable fun.
We are the minority.
Masahiro Sakurai][SIZE="3 said:
I am very glad that the game has been enjoyed by many people. Some play seriously and others play it for fun. Then there are also those who play the home run derby mode. Different people playing it for many different reasons makes me feel good about the game.[/SIZE]
crap, do I need winRAR to unzip these?
Yeah you should definitely get it to unzip stuff. Most stuff you download nowadays is zipped anyways so you might as well get it now.
No, get 7zip!
I believe 7zip is free and should be able to unzip .rars. I could be mistaken though.
Urg, out of my head with you!
according to vBrawl charts, Sonic's worst Mu's are the following:
(35/65 them)
and his only adventageous ones are:
everyone else he pretty much went 40/60 against, with a few 50/50's and 45's tossed in
Marth and GW still have that rnage and disjointedness to give sonic trouble, and everyone else has gotten buffed, making his 40/60's most likley worse.
he definatly needs a bit of attention
Sonic won't be ignored, but his existing buffs are definitely non-trivial.
I feel that I have rightfully earned the title of "gamer" through my many hours of mastering the Mega Man X games, so I have a hard time putting someone who plays nothing but Guitar Hero and the newest Mario Kart game a gamer.
Nintendo used to make games for masochists like us, but now...
...but now they make NSMBW? The most masochistic game since DMC4?
These buffs are nice and everything but don't deal with Sonics real problems like range, approaching and killing. Why not just simply make his Fsmash and Dsmash faster and stronger...?
Well, speed on the moves won't be changed.
A little bit of KO power is somethign that might be perfectly fine to investigate. However, adding enough of a difference so Sonic now relies entirely on these moves as a character would be bad... we already see a bit of this with Mario and the buffs to his smashes, which will be addressed.
It was general A Tier.
We could tack on +3 to Sonic fSmash and call it a day.
Ha, that would be so awful. Hypno-NUKE!
Well remeber the goal of this project is the make characters better by means of changing as little as possible. We buff and nerf with the upmost priority of trying to maintain the style, gameplay, strengths and weaknesses of the character in tact.
With character's weakness and bad matchups I think it fiqures like this:
A) buff a specific move(s) that would would help in a particular matchup(s) eg: Luigi's fireballs.
B) buff a chars. strength eg: Link ,better arrows (projectile game) and overall better onstage game to compensate for garbage recovery.
C) Overall give a character more reward for their moves eg: Falcon and generally most of the cast.
D) If a weakness of said character is THAT over polarizing then a gamechanger may be implimented to aid eg: Ike's quickdraw, Ivysaur nonfreefall vinewhip, Yoshi's Egg Roll recovery.
E) Ganondorf
With Sonic I think we either give him a relatively good kill throw that kills maybe below 150-170% fresh, Slightly increase the knockback of his Fsmash or Downsmash. Or focus on his damage racking to quickly get to those all important kill %
@ Axis youd be surprized what a few damage % can do. I think it was AA who said at one point they added just 6% on Falcon's knee and it began killing at 50%.
Generally most people want Marth, Game and Watch, Olimar since many character's in the game still have major problems with them.
And this is all a work in progress so be patient and offer good opinions on the problems that will occur
Best post in thread.
Make sonics sweet spot dair spike.
This is a fair and balenced addition that helps alleviate a lot of sonics problems
also make his up air do at least 12%
Uair is already really good, first off.
Second, I don't see at all how his dair spiking would help his bad matchups. Is there some trick or special use you are thinking of? My ears are open as always.
Pound is also ridiculously easy to bait, and has a good amount of ending lag. Using it as a primary offensive move in a serious match is simply unheard of. You'll use it about as much as Samus' up-b.
Eh, It's Jigglypuff's "crutch move". She has to rely on it more and more in bad matchups where her normal aerial moveset can't work well, like Marth and G&W.
This might have already been asked by why didnt u get rid of stamina for PT
I think someone else covered it, but we wanted to balance PT, not split him up. I don't want to start an argument that's been had over and over, but in short PT is a character in Brawl and Squirtle, Ivysuar, and Charizard are not. I think it was Paprika who pointed out a while ago that even offering the ability to play solo Pokemon at all is effectively taking PT out of the game. They are fundamentally different from Sheik/Zelda.
Plus, the time to switch between Pokemon has been cut in half so yeah!.
This seriously helps a lot.
I'm sorry, but you don't understand Jigglypuff at all. There's no other way to put it. Pound's hitbox LOOKS like it has a good amount of ending lag, but in reality it is basically unpunishable because the hitbox lingers so long.
Uh, not really.
i always thought forced switching and stamina was redundant and unnecessary
I mean, in some ways sort of, but on the whole not really. Just one or the other would be sort of a half-hearted "you durn kids better play with all yur pokeymans and not just one" attempt. Both make it a bit robust.
Just to point out, this is not how it works. In a complex fighting game, there's always more than one way to solve an issue, especially one as broad as, "make this character good". There is an enormous number of ways they could make Sonic viable without buffing his kill moves.
Examples just to illustrate how varied solutions could be:
- Make all his other attacks deal 10% more damage without increasing their knockback.
- Give Sonic an infinite shield.
- Make all the other characters suck.
- Give Sonic the ability to spawn food at-will.
Naturally all these solutions are utterly ridiculous, and would contradict the purpose of the project. But my point is that there's never just one way to fix a character -- don't assume just because Sonic's problem involves killing, he can't be fixed by changing something other than his kill moves.
Yes. You have the main idea correct: There are many ways to solve a problem. The most direct is often not the best.
I just want to say that I have read the entire thread, and I'm not going to make a big post now, though I'll be dropping in again.
I look forward to it!
If you won’t listen to the facts to mainers (and non-mainers) bring, who will you listen too?
Make no mistake, me and Ampharos are listening. Even when he ask questions and argue and debate points, everything is feedback that is considered.
For Zelda&Sheik, Sheik really needs to struggle at killing the most in the game. As in, can't kill Mario until 200%. This will ensure Zelda gets used, and we accentuate that she hits hard and far, but doesn't rack the damage.
For Sonic, we simply make him rack damage FASTER. However, I don't think he's inherently flawed as a whole character. We need to see if the Sonic mains are actually using dTilt properly before we accept their complaints
First, I think d-tilt is being really underrated. It was a pretty crappy poke before, and now it sets up a chase. Sonic likes chasing.
Sheik's struggle to KO + massive damage dealing is about perfect right now imo. I don't think she needs to be more polarized.
Sonic is the easiest character to fix ever.
Change the angle on Nair so that it hits at a downward angle. Same as MK's Dair (but obviously it won't be as devestating as MKs Dair because it doesn't have the same range and Sonic can't chase you with it since he can't fly). It also can set up a tech chase at high percent, leading into Bair or fsmash.
This sets him up to land K.O.s, and doesn't change the character at all.
I like this idea, and will investigate it further.
Ok, I have a quick question. I've just recently (like, yesterday) picked up BBrawl Olimar, and I have to ask why in the world he's the only tether character now that has a recovery that puts him into helpless state.
Why?
I think everyone else tried to answer this already, but oh well.
To be honest, if I was doing this game from scratch Tethers would probably be different and more consistent. But for this case?
Olimar has good horizontal aerial mobility, retains movement during tether, can armor any hit with whistle, has somewhat lagless projectiles, and has a very defensive grab game that helps prevent ever getting off stage in the first place.
Simply put, Olimar has the tools to work around his otherwise awful recovery. Ivysuar, by comparison, has absolutely zero of those things.
you know what a fantastic sonic addition would be (i swear im not joking)
make all 3 of the down smash hits, hit at full power. so that way when an opponent airdodges or spotdodges into it at 150. in stead of just getting hit half way across the stage by a cruddy 5% weak hit, theyll die. its still requires the opponent to mess up. but it give sonic another actually viable kill option. that does actually have semi setups into it, so it doesnt change sonics game play at all
Tweaks to d-smash are certainly an option worth looking into.
Just fyi, a lower angle is basically the same as being stronger in most cases. Try out Falcon's up tilt, for example.
This is very true.
Usually if it's gonna kill, it's gonna kill. 2 or 3 damage probably wouldn't change how much it's canceled by certain characters' attacks either.
The way knockback is calculated, it is linear with damage of the hitbox. AKA, a move with the "same knockback" that does 10% instead of 5% will hit twice as far. (At any level of damage.)
I think we are overating sonic's approach and poking game, it's not really that safe.
Yes, that is why Snic struggles against team disjoint so much, and the reason d-tilt got buffed.
Zelda isn't designed to rack damage and never has been. If you could play super-defensive and extra campy you could probably main her (to learn Zelda I actually mained her for a while, and now I use her and Sheik as a team as much as I use Pit), but she really isn't good at killing. And Sheik has two reliable kill moves before 150%, barring a gimp: u-smash sweet spotted straight up or the explosion from u-air but only if the wind effect didn't stop it. She's not going to pull those off very often, so if you want a chance to kill before 150% you switch to Zelda.
Zelda's worst point is the early-game, honestly I can see her viably being switched to at 50% or so because she has such enough knockback that she could easily force an approach for those who can't camp. However, they are meant to be used as a team to reach that percentage.
The point is, no one should claim to main Zelda or Sheik, they should claim to main Zelda and Sheik. Ignoring either one is ignoring 50% of your attacks, and severely limits yourself to their potential.
This applies to the Marth and G&W matches. I feel less compelled to say "What can Zelda do to them?" and more compelled to say "What can the team do?" For the first question, the answer would be extended Zelda's range so she's more disjointed and make her moves faster. For the other it's focus on Sheik. Given the intent of this project, it's most likely going to concentrate on the second.
I feel our position and the effect we have put into place is solid: Zelda and Shiek solo are very viable and have nothing fundamentally wrong with them at all, but are probably around the worst characters in the roster. (I mean, SOMEONE has to be "worst"...) Conversely, Zelda+Shiek used together is around the top.
Zelda's f-tilt change (a timing change?!? heaven forbid!) helps her worst solo matchups a lot. Her other gimmicks are situationally helpful and make her an overall better character that is frankly a lot more interesting to play.
Im sorry, I thought this was supposed to be balanced brawl, not What-AA-and-thinkaman-think-is Balanced Brawl.
why is this thread even here, and why was I even asked to come here and give my input if ampharos and think are the only people whos opinions on balancing characters matters? THATS why I think BB and B+ stupid, because everything that is done here is subjectivity under the guise of tryign to achieve balance.
I have done nothing but be straight up and honest when analysing a character that I main and place in tourney with to go about making him better in a way that complies with your arbitrary rules. and Ive been shot down every time.
Whats the point? seriously...
I'm sorry if you took the comments of anyone else as representing us. We listen to and legitimately value all feedback. This thread has a great deal of debate in it, which generally is pretty healthy. No one gets a free pass, even me and ampharos; everythign that is said is opened up for criticism.
Thanks for offering your experience, really. I hope you will continue to contribute to the conversation.
I would buy 10 premium memberships if I could rename your account "Mr. Gorbachev" for a month.
